PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tolol on January 03, 2007, 02:16:07 pm
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Hello my fellow-citizen,
So finally the time has come to write my first posting on this forums.
Believe it I tried to read anything I could find about this issue but there was not a single answer that I found was satisfiying what I am about to ask/to tell.
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I tried to split this in IC and OOC issues, but sorry ... for me as a not really good RPer it is even harder to make a difference between In or out of Character while writing this.
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Let's talk about economy.
I (and I'm not alone with this) want to establish somekind of a working steel-market in Yliakum, but it's a pain in the neck to find any help or even employees with that.
I calculated a bit around for myself and found out that the maximum price you can get for a steel stock is 2000 Tria (and that's a good price already, you usally get less than 1000 Tria for it.)
So let's start with going to the mine ... To mine the iron and the coal for 4 steel-stock takes me about 40 minutes (mining lvl20) ... further 10 minutes for the run and melting ... making the stock.
Ok ... further with this example - If I take this 50 minutes as an average count.
50 minutes making steel stock - earns 8000 Tria (in best case)
50 minutes mining gold (with my level, my time and my strength) is about 18.000 Tria (in any case)
But don't get me wrong - It's not all about the money I earn - read carefully
Let's say I would like to employ a miner
I pay myself 20% for my melting and stock making and selling the stock - 1600 Tria
My miner would have to bring me not less than 40 ore/lump for it (for 6400 Tria) - that would be a maximum of 160 Tria for the same work he does in the gold mine and where he gets 240 Tria for. (in this example 9600 Tria instead of 6400)
Well, some of you might say - "sounds like a good relation, gold is harder to mine than iron and coal" - but there is the next point, I digged it all and the pain is ... the hardest to mine is coal, then iron and gold is the easiest. So what ?
And this is the reason, why miners I ask for help, I catch a lot of pytiyng looks from and they return to the gold-mine.
Well, how can this be solved ?
I'm sure I would be killed if I would propose to decrease the gold-price down to I would say 100 Tria per Ore.
But I'm sure that would be easier than increasing the price for steel-stock.
Another point would be to make gold harder to find ... (another reason for me beeing killed by a crowd of miners)
Well, I am not really sure if this can help or even a solution will be found with this post ... but to be sure ... after three hours of mining, running, melting ... etc. ... I just had to say it !
Thank you for listening to my awful grammar and spelling.
Yours
Tolol
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But then out of that you can make a 300/300 weapon. Surely then you can give a little more money to the miners for their hard work after you sell that?
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Good points for your first post Tolol :thumbup:
I agree the whole economic structure needs a lot of tweeking.
Making gold harder to mine is definatly a good start on making the system more realistic. It is getting harder and harder to find apprentices in metalurgy with the way the PP are set up now, without even mentioning the almost slave labour wages to be made.
A rethink on the whole system is deffinatly a good idea.
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Hi Narure,
you're right so far ... but I don't want to craft the weapon I want to make the steel, so the weapon-makers should take your thought to pay more for the steel ... right ?
Tolol
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Tolol, amaizing post, especially as it is first. I couldn't agree with you more. It is rare event, but i agree with 100% what you wrote.
concluding:
-coal easier to dig than iron
-gold harder to mine than iron
-price for gold should drop to 100 tria or below.
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Tolol, amaizing post, especially as it is first. I couldn't agree with you more. It is rare event, but i agree with 100% what you wrote.
concluding:
-coal easier to dig than iron
-gold harder to mine than iron
-price for gold should drop to 100 tria or below.
I dont agree with you here
If you make gold harder to mine, then leave the value as is.
If gold stays as an easy to get item, then lower the value.
you cant do both.
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ok, then easy ming stays and the price drop to 10 per ore, ok? Whats wrong, this time i want to lower only one factor.
The fact often few factors are lowered at once doesn't mean it is too much.
I can do both and i rather do both rather than one, but extreme.
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Realisticly Gold is supposed to be a precious metal, lowering the value and the availability totaly negates its worth.
Iron and coal should be much easier to mine(especialy coal) to reflect their value and aplication.
With the elimination of platinum, Gold has become the most valuble ore and should be treated as such. It shouldnt be just another ore that is easier to mine than the almost worthless coal. I am sure or at least I hope the DEV's are aware of the imbalances in the whole minning metalurgy systems in place. There are many things that need to be addressed and I dont know where these rank on the 'to do' list, we can only voice our oppinion and see what they decide to impliment or change.
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I agree with Laragorn. Lowering the price of gold is not the thing to do as it drives from reality. The gold mine should simply be "relocated" (as in deleted and another one be opened somewhere else) to a more far away and hidden place and another metal, such as silver or copper, should be put in place. The gold does set off the whole economy, but I'd suppose the devs are already aware of that.
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I haven't crafted in a while but do you still make more money selling ingots than stock? I suppose you are really talking about the player-player sales and not player-npc sales.
The gold mine should be limited, perhaps a per character weekly limit on what can be mined.
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Relocation, probably in the region of BD is best idea and i still don't agree with what you are trying to prove
With the elimination of platinum, Gold has become the most valuble ore and should be treated as such. It shouldnt be just another ore that is easier to mine than the almost worthless coal.
Did you know that platinum was worth 12 tria before it was removed?
Do you think that 100 tria for, what is over 16 times more expensive than iron ore sounds like just another ore?
Did you know that in RL it are the ingots which are far more expensive than iron? It is because gold ingots in the wanted purity are far harder to acquire than iron ingots. Thats why ore/ingot proce ratio is higher for gold comparing to iron. Another reason why gold ore shouldn't be as expensive as it is commonly wanted. And near this it should be harder to mine than iron. Unless you really want it to cost 10tria if you want to keep it easy to mine.
Do i get impression that people just want to have easy way of making money?
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Hi !
Gold is definitively much too easy to mine. Yesterday it took me 12 tries to dig 4 lumps of gold ore - and my character is level 1 in mining !
cu
Sunshine
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Relocation, probably in the region of BD is best idea and i still don't agree with what you are trying to prove
With the elimination of platinum, Gold has become the most valuble ore and should be treated as such. It shouldnt be just another ore that is easier to mine than the almost worthless coal.
Did you know that platinum was worth 12 tria before it was removed?
Do you think that 100 tria for, what is over 16 times more expensive than iron ore sounds like just another ore?
Did you know that in RL it are the ingots which are far more expensive than iron? It is because gold ingots in the wanted purity are far harder to acquire than iron ingots. Thats why ore/ingot proce ratio is higher for gold comparing to iron. Another reason why gold ore shouldn't be as expensive as it is commonly wanted. And near this it should be harder to mine than iron. Unless you really want it to cost 10tria if you want to keep it easy to mine.
Do i get impression that people just want to have easy way of making money?
12 tria for platinum?
what game where you playing?
What posts are you reading? where did I say I was looking for the easy way out? and where did I say I want to keep it easy to mine?
I think you need to reread the statement you quoted, I think you misunderstood. I am objecting the fact gold is easier to mine than coal.
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Alright, you don't want the gold to be easy to mine afterall. But the rest is correct.
been playing the same game as you and 12 tria is price which was. Since you said nothing what would expand it, this is a fact.
And this what i'm looking in your post, but can't find are some RL reasons. In-game reasons, based on prices/proportions/quantities in complete chaos can't stand as a reason. Besides RL is what is game is based on, like any other game BTW.
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Before Plat was removed it was worth 360 tria per ore, thats why it was so popular and easy to get rich quick, it was removed to stop the higher prices it induced.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26387.msg297219#msg297219
Edit : My figures were off sory, I went to my logs for verification;
(20:32:01) >You started trading with Harnquist.
(20:32:18) >You sold 16 Platinum Ore for 40 Circles, 4 Octas and 4 Hexas a total of 10240 Trias.
10240 divided by 16 = 640
as you can see it was a little more than 12 tria each.
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great, what about the RL reasons i meantioned about? so that a post is something more than: me thinks it should be this way because me thinks so.
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either your crack pipe is empty or you are just lookin for something to complain about.
we both are saying the system is flawed, what else are you looking for?
yes in RL refined anything is worth more.
yes the current system does not reflect RL.
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well, this was just a try to tell that I'm not lucky with that system.
If you use those things for abusal and flaming ... I wish I hadn't written ...
Close this ...
(my first and last post)
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hey, nobody is flaming x)
I was just trying to localize best solution. Maybe was trying to much, as the chance that devs do exactly as will be described are small. So maybe i was too picky about what LARAGORN said... well, i just used the thread also for an attempt to increase level of the arguments in general at this forum, but then i suppose others see it as me being again picky about stupid things. Well, I was trying, probably managd nothing... eh.
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This is not the first thread on this subject and will not be the last. There is nothing wrong with voicing opinions, that is how this are improved.
I do owe Nikodemus an appology for the comment, it was unwarented and juvinile.
I apologize for the comment Nikodemus.
@ Tolol ;
Dont let my faults stop you from bringing things into the forums for discusion, that is why they are here.
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well, perhapes the limiting on gold would be best, inflation of the makets is seen already...
dont reduce the cost of gold, but rather the amount open to finding. make it more limited, raise the price giving to refiened ores (will promote crafting levels ). also..
make it easyer and quicker to get coal and iron, coal should be real easy to get.. 2 ores per dig ;D and iron should be an ore ever other dig. gold on the other hand should be
an ore ever 5-8 digs.
thats the best i got..
-out
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Did you know that platinum was worth 12 tria before it was removed?
Before Plat was removed it was worth 640 tria per ore, thats why it was so popular and easy to get rich quick, it was removed to stop the higher prices it induced.
You're both right. Although it may have originally been 16, not 12. There was a refactoring of prices prior to the time crafting was first added which raised it to 640, but before that refactoring, it was 12, or 16. And now you make me feel old.
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So here I am back ... maybe I hyperventilated over that. But I really don't like abuses and such things in Forums at all. >:(
Now back to the topic ...
I went crafting yesterday and made some steel and things ... and another example came to my mind.
If we would not only compare the mining issues. Say I can dig 10 ore in an hour and because of that mining iron isn't worth to run to mine and I go mining gold instead. This is the origin of my thoughts and the post.
BUT !
What about the time after mining ?
I went to Trasok to make some steel ... and a dagger (btw. I made a dagger with too high level 399/399 and had to sell it to an npc after talking to a gm :o )
If I would also use this time to dig gold it would double the earnings once again !
Well, as said before, making money is not the intention of my playing but am I wrong with my wish to earn minimum the same as a miner when I "really" craft something ?
I hope I'm not blamed for spoiling but here is an example:
I need 5 Steel-Stock for a dagger - this needs 50 ore/lump - would be in gold : 12.000 Tria
I need about half an hour for crafting the dagger would be in gold: 6.000 Tria
So selling it should bring a turnover of minimum 18.000 Tria !
I don't believe anyone would pay that, even if it is in perfect quality.
Well ... it looks as if I have to understand that crafting is "fun" and mining gold is "making money".
And with this point of view I will end my comments on that by beeing anxious about what you have more to say.
Tolol
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@Tolol
umm.. im not sure how much you pay attention to the markets.. but a dagger at 300 quilty (gm set limit.. might be fixed now.. dont know) does ALMOST the same amount as a sw dagger
a sw dagger.. is 200k+- depending on the mood of the buyers and sellers..
so.. its not unreasable to say that you could easly sell a 300 quility dagger would sell for 50k 100k..
*not sure on the 300quility attack damage.. dont use daggers nor do i craft..*
im still sure though that a set of daggers can easly sell for 18k per.. no prob... 20k , sure 50k.. < might be to much :))
[Edit: no reason to quote the entirity of thier post, especially since you are the one posting right after them. A simply "@[forum name]" is suffiecient. --Neko]
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This is awesome !!! :o
I really didn't know that this has become such valuable ...
(to be honest my last transaction on the weapon market was buying 2 iron-daggers for 60k each :'( )
But if this is true it would make things much easier ...
Let's say 25k for a perfect quality dagger - I'd pay the miner 12.5k and he would get 250 Tria per Ore/Lump
and there'd still be the other half of the money for the crafter (me \\o//).
So if you are right, the market has already regulated itself.
Only exception is the price for steel-stock.
If anyone is in crafting and will buy the stock instead of doing it himself he should pay at least 2500 Tria each.
But anyway ... I'm much surprised about that ... and I will soon craft my first pair of 300 daggers and then will see what happens when I sell them ...
Thank you for opening my eyes ...
Tolol
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So he explained exactly what i said on the first reply :-X I should learn to explain things.
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Narure,
I am really sorry about that but I was abolutely NOT aware of these changes in value.
I promise to be better informed next time. :detective:
Tolol
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no, no its my fault for not explaining.
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It pays to ask questions when it comes to the going rate for any item, I learnt the hard way :( I sold a SWSS for about 1/4 of the normal going rate. I was very new and didnt have a clue on what things where sold for, I thought I was getting a great deal seeing as Harny only wanted to give me something like 1400 Tria for it.
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well, why not arrange a committee to regulary (spelling?) publish the avarage market-prices for the most common weapon ?
I think that would also help to get the market and economy to right path.
Maybe worth to think about !?
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there have been some ideas like that before suggesting a forum based maketplace of sorts, but it is not a readily accepted concept. Not all players read the forums, and they want to keep as much stuff in game as possible. I see a conflict in that logic however, we have a thread here for a bullitin board, anouncments of events and wanted posters and things of that nature; why not one for a marketplace?
Antways...I am sure most of the issues discussed here will be changed in the future as the game develops into a more realistic or at least logical system.
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such published prices would blance things a lot. I from playing a game where it was present.
Be it auction, or website, any merchant which wan't to earn and know if his price isn't to high will look there.
Auction is for in-game. Lookin through the offers, you would get the idea about current prices. It is usually that when in traditional way you would sell for example 100 skins at most, on action it usually wary from 100 to 10,000.
Anyway, it was like that in this game before i stopped playing it for some other reason and it was working well.
Is there a room in PS for this? It depnds how far is the society advanced, I gues. We know it isn't exactly medieval and probably any age from RL Earth wouldn't match. Or maybe the roman like culture before medieval? A mix? I gues we all have our feelings.
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why not have a wiki? easily updated and accesed.
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50k for a 300/300... o_O and I've been giving them away for free (provided the newbie helped me mine)... oh well, I'll probably keep doing it, teaches them the basics of mining and helps cure my boredom... although I could set up an exchange program, I set them up like this and they agree to mine enough for an additional dagger or ss.
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why not have a wiki? easily updated and accesed.
we do have a wiki (http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Main_Page) :p
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i ment a wiki of the planeshift economy. Weapon prices ect.
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posting the prices MIGHT be considered a spolier, as i was told by a gm.. (or was it 100 players :\ ) let the new players find out prices for themselfs. if a buyer or seller for that matter wants to find out about prices then they sould stick around the market for some time.. also, posting a price on each weapon and item not only would require masaive amounts of time.. but would give away all the weapons names..and with prices to follow.. will give away secreats. so again.. spoliors,, so doing such a thing would be unlikly.. but doing it on a guild website for its fellow members? just maybe ;)
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Hi and Hello again,
first of all I have to say that this thread really looks better to me than all the others regarding this issues. (and I don't say that because I have opened it ;-) ) I think Forums do not live from the asked questions but more quality is done by the answers ! And except a few, little things these answers where much more satisfying than all I have read in the other threads.
So take this as a big _Thank you_ ! \\o//
@John80sk
Well, that is quite a big gift. I'm also giving away daggers for free but I have some good old 50/50 ones left which IMO are good enough for killing Rats in the sewers or start a combat training. - But you're also right that it is a good start providing someone and get help in giving a _better_ weapon away.
@Bartholin
You're right by saying that making all prices (and names) of the weapon public could be seen as giving away secrets and possibly be spoiling, but I don't think that was the attention of Narure by asking for a wiki.
I think all that _named weapon_ should still be secretly and the _pricelist_ should only list weapon that are possible to be crafted by us and only for the highest possible quality.
This would shorten the list to a max of ~10 weapon.
To make this as easy as possible, it could also be designed like poll.
Question: What did you pay for a Dagger 300/300
Answers:
O up to 10k
O up to 20k
O up to 50k
O up to 75k
O up to 100k
O more than 100K
so the poll result would be a mirror of prices ...
btw. if there is no other way found it would be possible to host this on my webspace.
[Okay, so much for now ... I better start working (my boss is looking a bit strange about this text)]
Tolol
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I can see why it would be a spoiler to give out the npc prices. But the going rate with the player community seems perfectly non-spoilerish to me. Why cant what the public do in public be public information?
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its just like if i was to ask a group of players, "hey, i dont know where to trian my sword to level 30.. wheres it the trainer" or.. "hey, i need to find item a for thie questwhere is it?" i do however like the idea about the poll thing.. that would be a nice thing.. since its only for crafted weapons.. but giving out market prices to a public area is a spolior, regaurdless of the market (if its for weapons) you COULD however give a basic rang.. like ss - 100 - 300k, ss 2/2 50/50 = 200 - 400, ss 2/3 1k-2k , ss 2/2 50/50 +1agi 3k-4k... i dont think such a thing would be a nice thing.. since it sets the price to a max.. and would limit the spread of the economy. like buying a fire 2/4 at 5k and selling at 8k.. with a set limit.. no weapons would be bought.. or at least the limit would be there..
however.. it is not against any rules to have such a list of items posted in ones guild website ;) (not like i have a list or nothing ;D)
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I am kind of curious about the possibility of an In-Game bulletin board, where people can post things like Upcoming Event times, Current Rules/Warnings (don't feed the ulbers!, Drink at Kada-El's!), etc. IC information only, of course, with a moderator to police it. Unfortunately I have no clue what kind of coding and testing a thing like this would take, and it would probably need a minimum rule for things like eligibility to post, to prevent things like "I'm nu. giv me weps n monee - dipstick". Then a player or in-game committee with posting priveleges could post "Current average auction values for various items" with a note on the bottom saying that the information was gathered by sampling the local auction traffic and surveying various persons around Yliakum. And since it would be posted In-Game (like on a wall next to Harnquist or something) it probably wouldn't be considered a spoiler.
The big downside about "spoilers" is that what one person considers a spoiler another may consider perfectly reasonable information. I have found that even when speaking to different people with the same level of authority in the game, their opinions vary wildly. There are the hardline staff that seem like they look for reasons to point out that players are doing/saying something wrong and there are laid back staff that some think don't do enough. Information on the actual mechanics of how to craft for example. "You must but item a into slot b, but you must have these required items equipped/in your possession". Some think that basic instructions like that are too specific when I see it as no more significant than saying "you must have a rock pick to mine" or "press r to autorun". Now saying "You must put item a (that you get at location c from this NPC, and use x recipe) into slot b, but you must have these required items (that you get from x NPC by doing a quest, and this is what you say to get it)" is too specific. If you have to give away information that definitely is a spoiler, like what to say to an NPC or recipes for spells/alloys, then you had best do that in private or not at all.
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Isn't the price a question of offer and demand? A Silverweave Shortsword always has a really low offer, but 300/300 Shortswords will soon become common due to the large amount of crafters. What happens next? The prices will drop again since somewhen the demand is saturated and people will underbid their prices in order to sell their 300/300 swords. Let's take e.g. the Mercenary Helmet. At the beginning it was really rare, low offer, high demand, high prices. It used to go for ~20k Tria. Yesterday someone was not able to sell it for 1k Tria. This is the same with the 300/300 swords. Soon everyone will have its own and the prices will drop, but the Silverweave prices will remain constant since not everyone has one.
The only thing to help increase the prices for steel and swords would be a cartel, a union of every single merchant and crafter and agree upon fixed prices, and punishment if someone offers items for a different price. But where is the fun in that?