PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Valorius Rageway on January 18, 2007, 06:57:47 am
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Is there any way i could humbly suggest the inclusion of a Tai-Chi sword in Planeshift?
Ive never seen one in any RPG, which is odd, considering that it is a true master's weapon. And since i've been using one in real life for almost 20 years, it would really 'connect' me with my character.
(http://www.monkeypeaches.com/Sword.jpg)
"Green Destiny", sword of Li Mu Bai from the movie "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon."
Thanx for your time.
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Tai-Chi doesn't really belong in PlaneShift, however. It is something very specific to our world and thus would not fit within the setting of Yliakum. You will find items that are more unique to the game.
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A tai chi sword isn't 'world specific', but a short sword, falchion, long sword, and claymore are?
A Claymore is about as highly specialized a niche/nation specific weapon as exists, yet it "fits the world" whereas a tai-chi sword(or katana or whatever other sword you may fancy) does not?
No offense, but that just makes no sense at all.
A tai chi sword is essentially a long sword with spring steel blade for heightened sensitivity. What exactly 'doesnt fit' about that? A broadsword is also a chinese kung-fu weapon, i noticed that plane shift has those(i had a nice crystal steel broadsword up until i sold it 3 hours ago). I fail to see the difference of how one 'fits', and one does not.
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The problem lies in the name: Tai Chi sword.
Putting this sword in the game under that name would also mean that Tai Chi exists in the game. Tai Chi doesn't exist and won't exist, something similar with an unique name might. So basically I think if a suitable name can be found for your sword then it might find its way in there some day. Wouldn't count on it any time soon though.
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Just call it the 'Long sword of enlightenment' or something. It would have to be a rare and hard to get sword or it would be just another sword.
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It's not the name he's pushing for, but the type of sword! Call it a Argan Sword! ^_^
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The problem lies in the name: Tai Chi sword.
Putting this sword in the game under that name would also mean that Tai Chi exists in the game. Tai Chi doesn't exist and won't exist, something similar with an unique name might. So basically I think if a suitable name can be found for your sword then it might find its way in there some day. Wouldn't count on it any time soon though.
Just a few possible workarounds for the name issue: Perhaps it could be "ancient lost technology" from a long since missing emmisary, merchant, or even a long extinct race or nation. Or as the other lad suggested, you could simply rename it to some other name. "Chi" means internal energy, so perhaps a "Plane-chi", or "Phase-chi" sword, or something along those lines.
The advantages of a tai-chi sword are in it's heightened sensitivity(which is what makes it a masters weapon, as only a master can properly appreciate and utilize that sensitivity to his opponents movements through the blade of a sword), and it's ability to still strike an opponent even if he blocks your attack(the spring steel blade will bend beyond 90 degrees to "wrap around" an enemy blade and attack with the tip if it hits another sword blade at the right angle, then spring back into position. They are also extremely light(about 1/2 the weight of a quality Katana), so they are extremely fast weapons. Short of a fencing foil or maybe some rapiers, a Tai-chi sword is as fast as it gets.
Architecturally, a tai-chi sword aways features a 1 handed handle and can have a blade ranging from about 25-30" in length.
I appreciate your consdierations, and i wont bother the designers with this topic again. I appreciate the chance to have my opinion on this matter heard. :)
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Just a few possible workarounds for the name issue: Perhaps it could be "ancient lost technology" from a long since missing emmisary, merchant, or even a long extinct race or nation.
I think you should learn the setting before giving any suggestions concerning the setting at all.
I don't have much against the idea, but if you are trying to be at least considered, you need to know a lit more.
The fact many things in PS lacks in deepth explanation is no excuse, because this way we will never go above this barrier. <<---- This is for future arguments.
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I don't get it. A 'Tai-chi' (Chinese; literally 'ultimate fist') sword automatically means that Tai Chi exists, but a Claymore ('claidheamh mòr' - literally 'big sword'... yeah us Gaels are real original :P) doesn't mean that Celts exist?
Isn't that logic just a little bit flawed...?
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Sure :] Everything has some origin somewhere. But then why even call swords "swords," and instead make up a name like "nrals"? There's a limit to things. Claymores, nowadays, have less of a "this definitely comes from such-and-such place" connotation, while reading a name like Tai-Chi still immediately makes you think of its Earthly origins.
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Sure :] Everything has some origin somewhere. But then why even call swords "swords," and instead make up a name like "nrals"? There's a limit to things. Claymores, nowadays, have less of a "this definitely comes from such-and-such place" connotation, while reading a name like Tai-Chi still immediately makes you think of its Earthly origins.
Actually, when I hear 'claymore', I instantly think either 'Braveheart' or 'Scotland' - I'd consider them almost as scottish as bag-pipes, but maybe that's just me...
My primary argument would be that, to a Chinese person 'Tai Chi' is just a word, but come to think of it... there are no Chinese people :P (At least not that I know of. Even still; This is still a solely english-speaking game...)
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I think one problem is that most medieval fantasy (or otherwise) settings usually center on western European culture. And people find it odd to see references to anything else but that. I can not speak for PS in general, but I do not think it is impossible to imagine seeing some exotic weaponry like this in the game.
Of course there are many things that would have to be done before getting them in game. Foremost would be to find a skilled 3D artist willing to do these sorts of items justice. We may also want to changes to the combat rules to support exotic weapon fighting styles. It would be cool to see some combat specialization some time in my lifetime
As far as crafting is concerned, you may think that the making these swords would also require the need to for specialized skills. But we might be surprised to find out that the methods were very similar (with the addition of some special techniques.) Unfortunately, I do not know very much about creating oriental swords. I will do some research.
But if anyone has any ideas about the setting and extra crafting steps or tools that they would be interested in seeing for use with these styles of swords please post them here. To be any use they would need to fit the context as well as the limitations of the game. For example, the special quench tank containing unusual liquids might be used. Or some additional tools needed to create that beautiful ornamentation. Maybe a ceremonial drum would have to be played to put the smith in the correct frame of mind.
Valorius, it is great to hear from someone who is familiar with swords and swordsmanship in RL - as compared to where most of us get our experience. Thanks for the great post.
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Protein: you've already dreamed up a setting; exotic weapons come from somewhere exotic. There is a large amount of "unchartered" terrirories in the world especially since there is no map available. (and even if there were, a lot of it would be blank with "Here, Thar be the Dragons/Monsters")
I'm using this as a reference
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24282.msg269141#msg269141
a possibility might be that one of the races brought it in with them through the portal. I wouldn't know which race might have something like that but I'd have a feeling that Valorius Rageway might know considering that he's trained in that. though this does seem a lot like a "wizard did it" solution by using some end all origin simply by throwing it somewhere else.
in addition an alternate name for the sword could just be it's name in pinyin (chinese characters may be a bit...unexplained) Tai chi jian I think it is. (jian means sword, tai chi is literally supreme ultimate.)
considering that possibilty I've noticed how different oja and hydlaa look, so is there a possibility of oja having different weapons from hydlaa in their shops? it occurs to me that the enki migh thave developed something to supplement their natrual abilities or features. seems sterotypical but catclaws wouldnt be a bad idea, for everyone else they'd just be gauntlets with knives or something.
on a related note this thread is titled "specific weapons requests" and I would like to see a katana and wakizashi I may not have had 20 years of practice in those but 5 years is still a sizable amount I'd say. (plus more years of various martial arts, which would also be interesting in game.) Considering they are a longsword and shortsword respectivly they could just be the result of an alternate way to make longswords and shortswords. I can look up the methods and find weather or not it's plausible that you could make it in much the same way but with a bit of tweaking in how you hammer it.
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For reasons none of us will ever understand, this thread has motivated me to register an account (just the forum for now...) amid my passive, stealthy stalking of this game which has gone on for well over a year now. I look forward to contributing to the wrangling dialogue that'll result in improving the game.
While on the gist of this topic...one of "exotic" weaponry...might I venture to ask what the stance would be on weaponry/"stuff" that is so esoteric at this point that by and large almost anything that attempts to construe it might well be fantasy? While there are many such "things" throughout known and partially known human history thus far, here's one that particularly comes to mind---no worries on being "overused" in this genre or any other(Even MUDs) for that matter.
Gatka:
http://www.combatkempo.com/Gatka/gatka.htm
I don't mean to suggest this change it all in terms of combat and such....but it is well worth the fascinating read, has some pictures and diagrams, and is generally interesting material. Sift through this golden powder to look for any gems let's say. ;)
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I don't get it. A 'Tai-chi' (Chinese; literally 'ultimate fist') sword automatically means that Tai Chi exists, but a Claymore ('claidheamh mòr' - literally 'big sword'... yeah us Gaels are real original :P) doesn't mean that Celts exist?
Isn't that logic just a little bit flawed...?
EXACTLY. ;)
Sure :] Everything has some origin somewhere. But then why even call swords "swords," and instead make up a name like "nrals"? There's a limit to things. Claymores, nowadays, have less of a "this definitely comes from such-and-such place" connotation, while reading a name like Tai-Chi still immediately makes you think of its Earthly origins.
To the contrary a Claymore is EXTREMELY specific to the Celts. If you wanted to merely represent the TYPE of sword, it would be called a "two handed sword" or perhaps a "Great sword." Only one very small island nation on Earth uses Claymores, as the title is NOT synonymous with a 'type' of sword, but rather a very specific weapon in particular.
To have the one and not any other speciifc earth blade is a direct contradiction, unless William Wallace himself once teleported into the planeshift universe. ;)
Even among Scotsmen the Claymore is a very rare weapon(as it was very expensive).
Also, it was stated earlier that there are no 'martial arts' in planeshift. In reality, such a statement merely displays a misunderstanding of what the term "martial art" means.
Quite literally, a "martial art" is any MILITARY type training or skill. So if you acquire a level of sword training, or bow training, or drill and ceremony training, by definition you have just practiced a martial art. If it relates to organized fighting or training among organized forces, it is a martial art. ;)
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Also, it was stated earlier that there are no 'martial arts' in planeshift.
I'm not sure where you saw that. I believe that's planned to be a trainable skill.
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Why not simply call it "spring steel longsword"
And IMO Claymore does need to be changed to "great sword" or something of the sort.
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I think one problem is that most medieval fantasy (or otherwise) settings usually center on western European culture. And people find it odd to see references to anything else but that. I can not speak for PS in general, but I do not think it is impossible to imagine seeing some exotic weaponry like this in the game.
Of course there are many things that would have to be done before getting them in game. Foremost would be to find a skilled 3D artist willing to do these sorts of items justice. We may also want to changes to the combat rules to support exotic weapon fighting styles. It would be cool to see some combat specialization some time in my lifetime
As far as crafting is concerned, you may think that the making these swords would also require the need to for specialized skills. But we might be surprised to find out that the methods were very similar (with the addition of some special techniques.) Unfortunately, I do not know very much about creating oriental swords. I will do some research.
But if anyone has any ideas about the setting and extra crafting steps or tools that they would be interested in seeing for use with these styles of swords please post them here. To be any use they would need to fit the context as well as the limitations of the game. For example, the special quench tank containing unusual liquids might be used. Or some additional tools needed to create that beautiful ornamentation. Maybe a ceremonial drum would have to be played to put the smith in the correct frame of mind.
Valorius, it is great to hear from someone who is familiar with swords and swordsmanship in RL - as compared to where most of us get our experience. Thanks for the great post.
It is my pleasure sir, and i will gladly answer any questions of yours or your staff's that i can via email or discussion on this forum.
I am very fond of both pre-eminent Oriental swords, the Katana and the Tai-Chi sword, and i have extensive training with both.
Both are very different weapons designed around very different philosophies, and as such, both have very unique properties, strengths, weaknesses, and forging techniques.
For instance, even among Katana's there are major variations in length and blade sweep. There were even some ancient Katana's that were of a straight bladed design called "Choku-To" Katana's.
The Choku-To is one of the great armor-piercing thrusting weapons of all time. And though the Choku-To lacks the more familiar curved blade Katana's vicious slashing properties, it greatly outperforms it(and maybe any sword ever made) in penetration, as the curved Katana is actually not a very good thrusting sword at all. A curved Katana holds an edge over virtually any European weapon in slashing, as it is designed to have it's optimum cutting point near the tip of the blade; as opposed to European swords with typically have their optimum cutting point about 1/3 to 1/2 way down the length of the blade itself, but armor penetrating thrusts are definitely not it's strong suit.
Conversely, a Tai-chi sword is by it's very nature very "flimsy" and flexible, so it is not a good penetrating weapon AT ALL, but is designed for slashing and thrusts at soft anatomical regions(such as the eyes, throat, diaphragm, etc). However, because it is typically a "masters weapon", it is expected to be wielded with a degree of precision that enables the user to exploit even the smallest gaps in an enemies armor(and as i stated above, "bend" around enemy blocks and parrys and stike home anyway). So if the user is indeed a master(which i definitely AM NOT), its' limited penetration capabilities almost become irrelevant, as no suit of armor has ever been made that is free of weak points. Not even a modern main battle tank is strong everywhere. Of all the swords on earth that you do not want to face in the hands of a man that really know's what he is doing, the tai chi sword heads the list IMO.
The legendary Marine Sniper Gunnery Sgt Carlos N. Hathcock II famously opined that, "Nothing on the battlefield is more dangerous than a single well aimed shot", a principle which definitely guides the theory behind the design principles and employment techniques of the Tai-Chi sword.
One point i would add though, and one that seemingly has eluded the weapons designers of planeshift and virtually every other RPG ever made- in the real world(and i would suspect in any real world with thinking, adapting species that lacks firearms), the battlefield will ALWAYS be dominated by two weapons:
The bow, and the spear(thrown or thrust).
The reason for this is simple, as man has always sought to extend the reach of his arm beyond the limitations Nature has placed on us. Nowadays we epitomize this philosophy with thermonuclear intercontinental ballistic missiles and B-2 stealth bombers, but before the advent of the firearm, rocketry, and aircraft, the spear and the bow absolutely DOMINATED the field of battle. OK, so the spear is not the sexiest weapon, but it was clearly by far the most preferred because with a good spear you doubled(or more) the standoff range of that a sword could achieve.
A sword was a gentlemen or nobleman's weapon, more a sign of status than anything else, and was really a weapon of last resort(for when your spear got broken or was lost), or one intended for dueling against a weapon of similar design.
Even the legendary Samurai did not use the Sword as their primary weapon (naginata). Nor did the Romans(Pilum), English(Pike or Pole-arm), Greeks(Phalanx Spear), and so on down the line. The legendary European knights also did not employ the sword as their primary weapon, but instead used the lance for most mounted fighting. In reality it was not until the days of firearms that Cavalry's main melee weapon become the sabre(a weapon designed to fill a very specific role in it's own right, and one that has very specific properties as a result).
In melee combat, something along the lines of a five to six foot long spear with a 12-18" double-edged blade on either end would be very, very hard to beat. You certainly would never want to face a man(or feline) armed with one of those if all you had was a sword....and that's ANY sword!!! ;)
Anyway, thanx for the compliments and kind words, and if you need any input on any weapon you may decide to model, please feel free to email me, as i would be honored to help to make planeshift even better than it already is. :)
M21sniper2000@yahoo.com
*edit*
on a related note this thread is titled "specific weapons requests" and I would like to see a katana and wakizashi I may not have had 20 years of practice in those but 5 years is still a sizable amount I'd say. (plus more years of various martial arts, which would also be interesting in game.) Considering they are a longsword and shortsword respectivly they could just be the result of an alternate way to make longswords and shortswords.
You just nailed it. Both the tai chi sword and the katana ARE long swords, but they are long swords that are arrived at by plugging the same set of equations into very different philosophies.
The Euro long sword excels at thrusting, but is weaker on the cut. The Japanese Katana is the exact opposite. The Tai-chi sword on the other hand seems weak and flimsy, and inferior to both- until you consider the philosophy that governs the Tai-Chi practitioners way of living, and his way of fighting.
The Tai-chi sword seeks to behave as water, simply flowing around a defense from all angles as opposed to simply overpowering it a single point.
The closest Western sword to the Tai-Chi sword is the Rapier. That's another sword you DO NOT want to face in the hands of a master. ;)
[ Please avoid making one post right after the other in the same thread. Just "Modify" your first post to add more information. --Karyuu ]
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I tried hard not to reply to this thread, and I hate sounding like some kind of a "know-it-all" but considering the content and replies it's gotten, I just have to intervene.
If any developer is reading this, I hope you read my reply thoroughly, especially if you're already considering the original poster's suggestion.
Also, believe me when I say that this is nothing against the original poster personally, and as much as I tried to word my reply without almost certainly causing a retaliatory reply from him, it just isn't possible, short of not replying at all. I might not have even replied, if not for the mention of "advantages" of such sword and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" movie.
I will simply quote relevant replies from various links that have already touched this topic.
From An Introduction to Antique Chinese Swords of the Qing Dynasty Period (http://www.northernwu.com/Swordgrp.htm)
Most serious Taiji students eventually find that their studies lead them to explore the various weapons that have traditionally been associated with the martial art of Taijiquan. When one begins training with either the jian (straight sword) or the dao (saber) one frequently starts off with a wooden sword. After a period of time, most players move up to a steel sword. Generally, this will be a reproduction piece made in China, often a "longquan" or dragon well sword. Most of these are very poorly made, frequently with incredibly flimsy blades or with improperly balanced "combat steel" blades. These blades are mounted with thin, cheap sheet brass fittings. The thin, whippy "wushu" blades bear no resemblance to a real sword. I suspect some people believe that when they execute a sword technique with fajing and the sword blade wobbles and ripples, that this is some measure of their internal energy. Alas, If you hand the sword to a completely untrained person, they will instantly achieve the same results. Buying a so-called "combat weight" sword is no solution, as the cheap fittings make the thing an ill balanced nightmare to wield. The medium weight blades are somewhat better, but the tip section is still unrealistically thin, limiting one’s ability to learn and apply authentic sword techniques, and the fittings are still no good. Even the best of these reproductions are no match for even a mediocre antique weapon, designed for actual usage.
In spite of the poor quality of commonly available modern reproductions, it s rare to find a martial artist using the real thing. It amazes me to see individuals who have devoted their lives to the passionate study of Taiji using a $30.00 toy to practice their art. Think about this: If you paid yourself only $1.00 per hour for every hour spent practicing Taijiquan and Taiji jian, how much would your training be worth? Don’t you deserve a fine training sword?
Note that there is really no such thing as a "T’ai-chi sword", made exclusively for Taiji straight sword or saber practice. The current popularity of Taijiquan is a fairly recent development in Chinese martial arts. Until modern times, there were never enough people engaged in its practice to justify the creation of unique weapons strictly for Taiji use. Taijiquan simply borrowed from the already existing arsenal of established sword designs.
From Chinese vs Japanese swords discussion (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5413&page=5)
The Modern Chinese sword, which has been made famous by such movies as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and The House of Flying Daggers, is often made of a material reffered to as "Spring steel" or "Wushu steel". it has gained these names due too its springy nature and the fact that it was created for use in the martial art of wushu. wushu is the modernized version of gungfu(kung fu) and is widely practiced around the world predominantly in tournaments and competitions. Modern Wushu focusses largly on speed and flexibility. to increase the speed of each movement, the chinese decided to shave off as much wright as possible from their weapons, the side effect of this was to create inferior weapons with little martial value, but that did not matter because modern Wushu is not meant for combat, but rather for competion. The swords would never have to cut anything.
So to answer your question, no, the chinese swords were never really like that, these types of swords only started appearing in the mid 1900's. before that the chinese sword was an amazing weapon which has not been given the proper praise that it should have gotten.
From Taijijian characteristics & usage (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50368)
I have to disagree with the notion, advanced in the initial post, that the forward third of a jian must have this extreme flexibility. I think that the origin of this misconception lies in the profusion of so-called "wushu jian" out there on the market. These wushu jian have thin, whippy blades somewhat akin to what we see on the foils, epees, and sabers used in modern sport fencing. None of these blades is in any wise similar to their antecedents of centuries before, which were of course made to deliver mortal thrusts and strokes on the battlefield and duelling-ground.
An extremely flexible blade, or blade tip, would not be useful for effective penetration on a thrust. The blade must have enough rigidity to remain straight on approach (for accuracy), and to reach and damage the internal organs or connective tissue. An overly springy blade, as on a wushu jian, is too easily deflected, not only by bone, but by cartilege and muscle mass as well. The same is true for cutting strokes.
It is true that most well-designed and well-tempered blades do have a modicum of "flex" to them. However, this characteristic serves to give the blade that degree of resilience that helps it resist sudden lateral stresses that might cause bending or breaking. The amount of flex varies according to the type of blade. Some, like Indian khandas and Chinese niuweidao, have a lot of distal taper and are thus comparatively thin at the tip; it is the quality of the steel and the nature of the heat treating that provides the requisite strength. However, none of these are as "whippy" as the sword-like objects made for wushu forms paractice. Others of thicker cross-section, like Japanese katanas and Persian shamshirs, have much less flex.
An examination of European thrusting weapons, such as the rapier and small-sword, also shows that their blades, or the tips thereof, are not unduly flexible. The characteristics of steel are such that you can't expect a blade that coils up like a watch-spring to have the wherewithal to strike true on either a thrust or cut. We've discussed this before on this Forum, when members have mentioned the so-called "belt swords" famed in martial arts lore.
These quotes are NOT to somehow imply that Chinese swords sucked. No, these quotes are to show that this wobbly modern mutation is nothing like the real Chinese swords used in real wars were. Chinese warriors didn't win their battles with "Green Destinies", they won them with Jian swords that were actually thicker than a typical Katana, much heavier, and much more practical in combat than the wobbly thing you see in the original post. No amount of "wrapping around" will win you any serious battles against trained opponents in armor with real and sturdy Jian or Dao swords.
Unfortunately, a post like this, suggesting a wobbly "movie" sword aren't unique. They are very typical of modern Wushu practitioners. There is a reason why most serious martial artists would be the first to say that modern Tai-Chi is nothing like the combat or battle Tai-Chi in the older days. It's been purposely modified to be safe, and looks more like an exaggerated dance than a martial arts technique.
Moreover, if you're going to include a real Jian sword in the game (the non-wobbly kind), it should not be treated as anything more special or rare than any other sword. Unless, you plan to introduce different versions of it (from basic to rare and powerful). This is NOT to say that Jian is a crappy sword. No, this is to illustrate that it's not in any way more special than Katana or traditional medieval swords.
In fact, you can "thank" the movie industry for majority of misconceptions about wobbly Chinese swords or overhyped Japanese Katanas, while the traditional Medieval European swords are reduced into nothing more than a crude generic sword.
For anyone, who's gotten this far in my post, I strongly urge you to read this interesting experiment called "The Medieval European Knight vs. The Feudal Japanese Samurai"
The Medieval European Knight vs. The Feudal Japanese Samurai (http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm)
It may be quite an eye opener for you.
And no, it is not bashing Samurais or overhypes the Knights. It is in fact a very objective comparison that dispels a lot of myths about either type of a warrior, and lists the true strengths you should be aware of, when talking about such subjects.
You may be very surprised to find out that the incorrectly generalized and "typical" Medieval Knight is a force to be reckoned with, including even the most gifted Samurai.
I'm sure you all have been faced with a typical situation where a sword collector automatically wants a Katana. This is largely due to the movies as well. New stuff like "Afro Samurai" may seem cool but in reality the same guy would struggle against an "Afro Knight".
Here are a few quotes from this very interesting and long article
Surprisingly, the longsword or greatsword is arguably a more complex weapon that the katana.
Knightly blades could be excellent swords, but are often denigrated merely as crude hunks of iron while samurai swords are venerated and exalted sometimes to the point of absurdity by collectors and enthusiasts (something the Japanese themselves do not discourage). Bad films and poorly trained martial artists reinforce this myth. The bottom line is that Medieval swords were indeed well-made, light, agile fighting weapons equally capable of delivering dismembering cuts or cleaving deep into body cavities. They were far from the clumsy, heavy things they’re often portrayed as in popular media and far, far more than a mere "club with edges." Interestingly, the weight of katanas compared to longswords is very close with each on average being less than 4 pounds.
It also touches on the concept or "warrior spirit" and misconceptions that Samuari somehow had a greater one than a Medieval Knight.
So, what is the point of all this? The point is that all sword types, including "typical" longsword, greatsword etc deserve as much attention as Jian or Katana, and can be made in variations of basic and easy-to-get, as well as rare, unique and powerful. You can make any of those swords into a "master's sword". Jian or Katana or anything shouldn't be any more special than medieval swords but not less special either.
As an example, it would make sense to have "Battered Jian", "Battered Katana", and "Battered Longsword", just as it would make sense to have "Ancient work of the great Master [insert some ancient name here]" version of them.
I guess I should brace myself for a retaliation from Valorius Rageway. :D
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The Tai Chi sword is not a sword of war, and i never said it was. It was a duelists(or personal protection) weapon, and a master duelists weapon at that.
Just like a rapier.
A jian or longsword is a weapon of war, whereas a Tai-chi sword or a Rapier is most decidedly NOT. Therefore, taken in the proper context, i have little to no problems with your quotes or opinions at all.
Besides, opinions are like A-holes, everyone has one, and most of them stink! ;)
At any rate, i have had this conversation many times before on many a board, many of which were "martial" in nature, so there's nothing in your post i havn't already debated at length before.
As far as samurai being all-powerful, i never even addressed them in the post to which you were referring. Truth is, most samurai were not even that good, and the Katana was not their primary weapon in any case. ;)
Like virtually ALL ancient warriors, they preferred spears and bows. ;D
PS: Did any of you see the episode of myth-busters when they try to break a sword against another sword? Watch the hi-speed photography in that episode, and you will see that all quality REAL swords were VERY MUCH highly flexible and "spring like". And of them, the Tai-chi sword is at the fore-front in that regard. A rigid sword will quickly break in battle, and is therefore quite useless. And as i said, when confronting an armored opponent with a weapon not designed solely for penetrating, one instead looks to the weakspots in the armor- like the visor, under the arms, at the joints, behind the knees, etc. And while ancient armor allows for far more agility than most expect, it does DEFINITELY tire the wearer much more quickly(especially on a hot day), so in and of itself it can be a disadvantage. Of course the really good plate armor wasnt introduced to around the 15th century, and by then firearms were already beginning to relegate the armored knight himself to the dustbin of history. In fact, swords LONG outlived the armored horse mounted knight on the battlefield, didn't they. ;)
Also, it would be hard to label you a 'know it all' for simply copying and pasting excerpts from a few articles that you did not write, and applying them to comments that i did write- comments that you obviously did not fully understand before you began your cut and paste operations. Hehehehehehehe....
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Well, that certainly answers a lot of questions.
Unfortunately, none of them answers the question "why should we have weapons with oriental names in a medieval world?" Karyuu already says it doesn't fit the setting and I'm inclined to agree. You practice Tai Chi swords in real life? Terrific. Doesn't mean it needs to be implemented in Planeshift. The response of "Well claymores are nation-specific therefore we should have tai chi swords" doesn't cut it - does that mean we also have to start including all the specific Filipino swords like the Barong, as well as any other cultural weapons we can think of? No, clearly not. Are you objecting to the use of the word "claymore"? In that case, maybe it should simply be called a "greatsword" or a "two-handed sword" (I hesitate to use the term "Zweihander" because it's too culturally specific.)
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Well, that certainly answers a lot of questions.
Unfortunately, none of them answers the question "why should we have weapons with oriental names in a medieval world?"
Is it a matter of "Should", or a matter of "it makes the game more diverse, and even better."
Historically, there was extensive trade with the Orient from the days of Marco Polo, and in some cases even earlier, of if they managed to get a Claymore into the planeshift world, it would not be surprising at all if they got other "earth" type weapons there too. What's more, one need not give them Oriental names at all, as they may have simply been developed in paralell in the planeshift universe to begin with. In America the Native Americans developed bows and spears on their own, completely independent of Europe and Asia. Likewise, Asia developed swords, spears, and bows all of it's own- in many varieties- completely independently of Europe. So as one poster offered above, a "Spring steel longsword"(which is what a Tai-chi sword is) would make PERFECT sense in the planeshift world, and would require ZERO European or other external influence at all to eventually develop. As i said in a previous post, in Europe to some degree the Rapier evolved to fill the same niche role the Tai Chi sword did, which is as a lightweight highly effective personal protection and dueling weapon. Likewise academys sprung up all over Europe to teach the unique style that a Rapier demands. Just like in China.
The Chinese DID use BS, and BS are in the game. Not sure how you reconcile that with your seemingly very strong views on this subject. The Chinese broad sword very much IS a sword of war.
Karyuu already says it doesn't fit the setting and I'm inclined to agree.
I noticed at least one other develper did not agree with you by his comments above.
You practice Tai Chi swords in real life? Terrific. Doesn't mean it needs to be implemented in Planeshift. .
Doesnt mean they don't either. What including them WOULD do is represent a weapon that is heavily underrepresented in the RPG genre. Simple as that. Thanx for the Att-i-tiude though. ;D
The response of "Well claymores are nation-specific therefore we should have tai chi swords" doesn't cut it
I'm sorry if rock solid logic and reason "doesn't cut it with you." Apparently a genteman's decorum "doesn't cut it with you either." ;D
does that mean we also have to start including all the specific Filipino swords like the Barong, as well as any other cultural weapons we can think of? No, clearly not.
I would say that if someone wanted to take the time to model and research them, including any or all of them would just ADD to the game experience, not detract. Having a Gurkha Kukri in the game would only make it BETTER IMO, not worse.
Afterall, variety is the spice of battle. :devil:
Are you objecting to the use of the word "claymore"? In that case, maybe it should simply be called a "greatsword" or a "two-handed sword" (I hesitate to use the term "Zweihander" because it's too culturally specific.)
A claymore is not just the Scottish word for "two handed sword", but is rather a very nation specific weapon that follows a unique set of design principles to fill a perceived role in the Scottish way. A Claymore IS a Claymore, it is not a synonym for a generic 2 handed sword, just as a Katana is not a synonym for "Longsword", even though a Japanese longsword is basically, exactly what it is.
A rapier is really a longsword too, as is a tai-chi sword, but they are so specifically designed and made that to refer to either as a "Longsword" is highly misleading, and not just a little inaccurate.
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Rageway makes excellent overall points from my perspective. Variety is not just the soul of a RP(G)...it is the only destination possible to be worth the effort. By that, I mean to say that stagnation and a lack of development would have a serious negative impact on Planeshift.
There simply HAS to be more weapons, types of weapons, and applications of weapons. Continuous refining and creative endeavors are what shapes the progress of sentient beings---there doesn't really come a point where "it is enough, perfect, or worth settling on." Thus, not having an abundant variety of "stuff" available for folk to endeavor in their RP or whatnot is wholly counterproductive. Especially since Planeshift aims to cut away from the herd in terms of depth and originality from other roughly similar games, why then should it be bound to some ridiculuous, perhaps D&D styled/biased ruleset and world where "This can't be because it also existed to a degree around relatively the same time in other parts of our natural world." Saying a Chinese or Filipino sword would somehow "break the fantasy" is quite a bit out there IMO. The question then becomes "You mean your fantasy....ya know...the one you are superimposing on this gaming venture from other prior games' rules and settings? Planeshift has to be a paradigm buster for pretty well everybody to ultimately succeed.
If Planeshift is to forever remain locked in a tired old cliche that offers nothing "exotic", "esoteric", new, or imaginative...I just don't see how it can live up to the mantle it has taken for itself. There's bags of time still left for all manner of people to work on and improve the game. The game is already growing at a fantastic rate over just the last year. Cowtowing to a preconceived and well worn nigh xenophobic, nigh Luddite fantasy mold just doesn't make sense---especially if the game is to be enjoyed by a large community of diverse players across the globe as opposed to a slim minority perhaps guided by preconceived notions in the grand scheme of things as time marches on.
In other words, I can't fathom a legit reason to not ultimately incorporate all manner of swords and such as well as new creations people come up with as the game rolls on. Something like a "10 Swords is more than anybody could ever need!" mindset would have grave repercussions.
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Getter,
PlaneShift's development will never cease. We will never have a "final" version simply because that's not what we're aiming at. There will always be new features, new items, new graphics, even new worlds (the name does have some meaning, after all). So there should be absolutely no worries about limited numbers of things - we're nowhere near any "this is enough for the final game" limit :]
Regardless, my only issue with Valorius' suggestion was to include the "Tai-Chi" name. If Claymores are alright with the project director, well, that's his choice. It's also his choice that we have dwarves and elves, but never any dragons - PlaneShift is his brainchild and he gets to pick and choose what makes it in :} I think the majority of gamers no longer see claymores as something very specific to a certain place or time period, while the more exotic eastern weapons are still very location-specific. At least, this is the way I personally see it and this is the overwhelming mentality I have seen in others.
But would hearing "Tai-Chi" in-game break the roleplay immersion for me? I think the answer is a yes.
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Well, that certainly answers a lot of questions.
Unfortunately, none of them answers the question "why should we have weapons with oriental names in a medieval world?" Karyuu already says it doesn't fit the setting and I'm inclined to agree. You practice Tai Chi swords in real life? Terrific. Doesn't mean it needs to be implemented in Planeshift. The response of "Well claymores are nation-specific therefore we should have tai chi swords" doesn't cut it - does that mean we also have to start including all the specific Filipino swords like the Barong, as well as any other cultural weapons we can think of? No, clearly not. Are you objecting to the use of the word "claymore"? In that case, maybe it should simply be called a "greatsword" or a "two-handed sword" (I hesitate to use the term "Zweihander" because it's too culturally specific.)
You're right in that this is about implementing weapons, not discussing how much they pwn :P
But I don't see how you can pick and choose what "cuts it". You think if Talad was Chinese that there would be people running around with Claymores, hm? No, it'd all be tai-chi swords and katanas and ninja-tus...
And most of the NPCs would have massive eyes, but that's a different matter...
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Getter,
PlaneShift's development will never cease. We will never have a "final" version simply because that's not what we're aiming at. There will always be new features, new items, new graphics, even new worlds (the name does have some meaning, after all). So there should be absolutely no worries about limited numbers of things - we're nowhere near any "this is enough for the final game" limit :]
Regardless, my only issue with Valorius' suggestion was to include the "Tai-Chi" name. If Claymores are alright with the project director, well, that's his choice. It's also his choice that we have dwarves and elves, but never any dragons - PlaneShift is his brainchild and he gets to pick and choose what makes it in :} I think the majority of gamers no longer see claymores as something very specific to a certain place or time period, while the more exotic eastern weapons are still very location-specific. At least, this is the way I personally see it and this is the overwhelming mentality I have seen in others.
But would hearing "Tai-Chi" in-game break the roleplay immersion for me? I think the answer is a yes.
Ah, my mistake...I could've worded myself better. I understand that growth of the game is essential and ongoing...I'd just object to that growth running into any "invisible walls" made from limitations from other games' mindsets/biases and such. Planeshift simply isn't any of those other games. Were it to try to be an amalgam of several popular insular, derivative games it would never manage to go the distance.
I'd venture that Rageway mentioned it specifically as Tai-Chi as a point of reference...what with that being the more common nomenclature. Essentially, it doesn't really matter what it was called...what matters is the essence of it...the style...the implementation. We could just translate everything into the game into a Sanscrit variant and slim to nobody would have any idea what was what if not for the fact that, names/language aside, things are what they are and function as they do. Would we have to incorporate "Kung-Fu" and the "Gatka" from my link into the game as a whole? Of course not. But we probably should incorporate their features/distinctions/nuances in order to beget a much wider range of options to enrich both the RP and combat.
Simply: It'd be unwise to get hampered by the language or origin of stuff like this within reason(outside of the esoteric, because that can serve even better purposes in terms of mystery and intrigue)...the critical thing to focus on is the root features, philosophy, and designs of it. Unless the aim is there to just forsake a tremendous amount of relevant weaponry in lieu of user created weaponry that may arrive at similar, if not identical, designs in a crapshoot...why not avail ourselves of the rich and often mysterious if not unknown legacy of human combative ingenuity and creativity that the outstanding majority of other games across multiple genres have largely ignored or just touched upon? Wouldn't having a broad representation of human endeavors thus far within the scope of this area be an especially excellent springboard for new ideas especially relevant to the Planeshift experience? They say one has to come to grips with History before one can be certain you are actually making new, innovative progress as opposed to coming up with a 7,000 year old idea all over again. Time scale indicators of progress/level of development are highly artificial afterall.
Sorry if I'm not making much sense? :-\
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Protein: this does of course open up the possibility that various weapons and specifc styles of martial arts can be put in game so long as there is a naming convention to them that doesnt automatically make the players think that it's out of place or out of time. a claymore is indeed a claymore but that's just the name for their version of a two handed sword. some people think that a claymore is the name for a two handed sword as opposed to a particular kind of two handed sword. though I think it's taken as such enough that it wouldnt break the fantasy too much. If the term Tai Chi sword makes people think too much of the oreint on earth then naming it a "spring steel sword" would be fine. I think I read that the topic creator wouldnt mind. similarly "exotic longsword" would be a great way to describe a katana without making you instantly think of a samurai.
this reminds me; since this opens multiple possibilities assuming we can find names for them that dont seem out of place I'd like to see clawed gauntlets (it would be funny if they were sold only in oja), brass knuckles, spears and halbreds (and exotic variations, naginata for example)
various styles of oriental martial arts could fit as well just under differnet names. I can see where Niten-Ichi-Ryu might be OOC in planeshift but "two swords" wouldnt. (as opposed to skill in "swords, etc") I cant think up of names for things like Tae Kwon Do or Tai Chi right now but I'm sure someone will.
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Hmm, I want Butterfly Swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Sword) and Chakrams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakram)... ooh, and a P-90 Submachine Gun.
...
Or a crossbow or something. I dunno...
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Protein: I was thinking about the first two. I somehow forgot it midpost. same with cross bow, as for a p-90 smg? that would be out of place almost indefinatly. though if you come up with the right glyphs you could have a very fast loading crossbow.
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Protein: I was thinking about the first two. I somehow forgot it midpost. same with cross bow, as for a p-90 smg? that would be out of place almost indefinatly. though if you come up with the right glyphs you could have a very fast loading crossbow.
Okaaay, how did you not get that was a joke? I mean, it mighta been a bad joke, but... sheesh.
And, uh... is it my imagination or do you keep calling me 'protein'?
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I believe that they aren't calling your Protien, rather, that's their characters name IG, or maybe it's their RL name or something, and by adding it to the begining, they are indicating which viewpoint they are using. A little different way of distinguishing between IC/OOC talk, but it works, kinda.
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Protein: just my way of saying it is me (the player or IRL user) as opposed to my character. in those cases I would mark it off with Ethon instead of Protein. and yes I got the joke, but it isnt totally a dud idea. you could easily magic up a crossbow that could fire that fast. I dunno how you might do it. probably by gluing an arrow glyph to give you the ammo and an air glyph for speed. then you would have a nice automatic crossbow.
by the way. perfectly understandable that you thought I was calling you protein. happens a lot. I got this convention of OOC speaking from somewhere else. thus if I ever get in the IRC my handle would probably be Protein then instead of Protomaster. (which is a name I also got from somewhere else)
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Hi,
Personally I wouldn't create an exact copy of a specific real world weapon (especially not famous ones), and use it in-game. Thus I'd say no to specific weapon requests. However, I could and have taken ideas from real world items and created weapons similar to them.
I do think that foreign names such as "Zweihander", "Ruhokirves" or "Tai-Chi" would hurt the in-game experience a bit. But I don't take part in the naming question, I'll rather let the settings people handle that.
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Ok, lets get this straight.
Planeshift is a world that has been crafted by several different races, from many places, and within these races there are bound to be subcultures.
Planeshift is a massive underground world, in which various new subcultures could flurish.
There are "Schools" (Argan, Esteria, Lah'ar) which sound to me like ways of living, ways of fighting, which seem to me the same kind of basis of many of the oriental arts.
Is it not feasable to have exotic things? Why should your charactor know exactly the kind of thing he's going to experience every day.
And if some of you have been reading, It Is not the name people want, but it is the flavor that there looking for.
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Hi,
Personally I wouldn't create an exact copy of a specific real world weapon (especially not famous ones), and use it in-game. Thus I'd say no to specific weapon requests. However, I could and have taken ideas from real world items and created weapons similar to them.
Real-world weapons exist 'cause they're effective. Specifically, they exist for specific situations.
Whether or not those situations would arise in the PS world is a matter for the devs, but considering we're all real-world people, I'd say they would.
But, whatever sinks yer boat...
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Cherppow is a dev ;] Therefore his view on the subject holds a bit of weight. Reproducing those specific situations may not always give rise to the same products - especially when you consider the different cultures of the PlaneShift races as opposed to cultures and histories of Earth. An exact replicate isn't likely to be found when you're going for something that may be unusual.
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Cherppow is a dev ;]
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They really need to make that tag bigger...
It's not fair to those of us with squinty eyes :P
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All the special people around here have avatars ;)
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All the special people around here have avatars ;)
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Et tu, Phoenix...?
Cherppow is a dev ;] Therefore his view on the subject holds a bit of weight. Reproducing those specific situations may not always give rise to the same products - especially when you consider the different cultures of the PlaneShift races as opposed to cultures and histories of Earth. An exact replicate isn't likely to be found when you're going for something that may be unusual.
S'pose you're right. But it seems that, considering the devs are humans from earth, the situations that they would formulate would be human and... earthian... in nature...
At least indirectly so...
You just can't really get around the natural evolution of: pointy stick -> javelin (i.e. long pointy stick) -> spear (i.e. stick with sharp head) -> bow (i.e. ranged sharp stick launcher) -> crossbow -> flintlock pistol -> revolver -> 9mm -> .50 cal magnum -> some form of death-ray...
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If what you are saying would be true, then everyone should have the same weapons, and everything. It isn't true, so you are wrong.
You are making everything so simple that you made yourself to believe in something what isnt true.
You want in PS every weapon human ever invented on whole earth. What will you say about the not yet invented weapons (which probably never will, because for example swords doesnt matter anymore) Why don't you want THEM in PS ? Too hard? It goes beyond your border of thinking?
No, i'm not offending you
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If what you are saying would be true, then everyone should have the same weapons, and everything. It isn't true, so you are wrong.
You are making everything so simple that you made yourself to believe in something what isnt true.
You want in PS every weapon human ever invented on whole earth. What will you say about the not yet invented weapons (which probably never will, because for example swords doesnt matter anymore) Why don't you want THEM in PS ? Too hard? It goes beyond your border of thinking?
No, i'm not offending you
I don't mean to offend either, but is english really your first language, 'cause I find it a tad bit hard to understand ya...
Anyway, I don't want "every weapon human ever invented"... it would be nice, but it'd be a tough cookie for the dev guys. And I would love to see "not yet invented weapons". (Unless you mean 'not yet invented' as in 'futuristic'. That would suck. I mean original weapons)
Where're you getting this from, anyway? I'm just saying weapons should adhere more to their relevance to the world, rather than what the devs feel like implementing.
If a katana would work well for a certain battle-situation, then katanas should be implemented. If a katana with a special crossguard to improve grip would help, then that should be implemented. That's how warfare evolves in reality, and it's how modern warfare should evolve in PS.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about warfare to give good examples, but you get the idea. (People needed pistols that could fire more than once, so they invented revolvers - that sorta thing.)
[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]
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Nope, you are still missing a fact that having some weapons is not only about them being good or not. Yliakum is small place and even if some races could have brought some tehnologies, this doesn't automatically mean we will have catanas.
Why the heck there were no catanas in medieval Europe? Because they wasn't invented there. And so there are no every good weapon in Yliakum. Weapons which are there, are these devs choose, not you. Catana wasn't invented and so some Tai-Chi something.
Better focus on finding reasons for the current in game weapons, rather than asking why we dont have one of the best weapons invented on the whole earth. Because it is what you are doing it looks.
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Nope, you are still missing a fact that having some weapons is not only about them being good or not. Yliakum is small place and even if some races could have brought some tehnologies, this doesn't automatically mean we will have catanas.
Why the heck there were no catanas in medieval Europe? Because they wasn't invented there. And so there are no every good weapon in Yliakum. Weapons which are there, are these devs choose, not you. Catana wasn't invented and so some Tai-Chi something.
Better focus on finding reasons for the current in game weapons, rather than asking why we dont have one of the best weapons invented on the whole earth. Because it is what you are doing it looks.
Perhaps if one is powerful enough to reach
the unknown Kadaikos, homeland of Lemurs, and the legendary Pradesha - ruled by the enlightened Ahrijani ... And much more...
he could probably have access to unique kinds of weapons, magic among other things. That would present a real challenge, and as there is no way back to Yliakum, it would mean such weapons would exist at most in legends.
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All the special people around here have avatars ;)
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Et tu, Phoenix...?
I'm not special enough :P
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All the special people around here have avatars ;)
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Et tu, Phoenix...?
I'm not special enough :P
That's a Caesar reference. Y'know, his last words after being betrayed by his best friend...? How did you not get that? :P
Anyway, I haven't a clue what you're talking about Niko. Moreover, I haven't a clue what you're saying I'm talking about.
As far as I can tell, your entire argument is 'weapons are specific to specific places, so the weapons in Planeshift should be specific to Planeshift'.
If that is your point, it's a fair one. But again, we already have claymores and falchions, which were specific to specific places on earth, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to include other weapons and chalk it up to the fact that there's a LOT more variety in culture in PS than there is in earth, all heaped together, which would account for there being a lot more variety in customs - which includes weapon-smithing...
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/me slaps himself on the head!
To my defense:
I have Latin class at school, so instead of seeing that and thinking "Hey, that's from Ceasar", I directly translated it into "And what about you?".
Hmm, I should've figured people don't usually use Latin in sentences for nothing...
/me slaps himself again.
But to make it up:
You're special, you should get an avatar too! :'(
:P
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Hello,
Well, dev or not, I'm not here to kill the conversation, just taking part in it. And many good points have risen here. I'm not saying there shouldn't be exotic weapons (or other items) in PlaneShift, but that we should make our own exotic weapons, not copy someone elses.
PS. I also think that weapons don't exist because/if they're efficient, they exist because someone made them. And not all designs are that good. Quality weapons require quality materials, skill, and tools to make, that are not always available (or even existant). Especially in wartime you often have to use what you have, even if it wasn't too well suited for your situation. Weapons may get popular and more widely used if they're efficient, that I agree.
Regards,
- Cherppow
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Protein: in that case I'd like to request sword-chucks.
is it possible to have both exotic weapons based off the ones on our world (with apropriate backrounding and what not) and also exotic weapons of our own design?
it could be in measured amount I'd think more of the latter and less of the former.
besides that what's to stop us from designing exotic weapons based on weapons out here? for example a short sword with two blades or possibly two long swords chained together by the hilt? there could be vast possibilities.
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yeah, sure, why make weapon fast and effective, when you can make it heavy and same as effective, or in fact less effective, because so heavy. It's how thing like this one came to existance, when people let their imagination flow too much: ^^
(http://www.letraset.com/homepages/images/CloudSword.jpg)
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yeah, sure, why make weapon fast and effective, when you can make it heavy and same as effective, or in fact less effective, because so heavy. It's how thing like this one came to existance, when people let their imagination flow too much: ^^
(http://www.letraset.com/homepages/images/CloudSword.jpg)
I think that Soul edge beats that to be honest....
Who could even pick up soul edge anyway? its bigger than nightmare himself!
Still, i cant help but love it.
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[...Good points]
One point i would add though, and one that seemingly has eluded the weapons designers of planeshift and virtually every other RPG ever made- in the real world(and i would suspect in any real world with thinking, adapting species that lacks firearms), the battlefield will ALWAYS be dominated by two weapons:
The bow, and the spear(thrown or thrust).
The reason for this is simple, as man has always sought to extend the reach of his arm beyond the limitations Nature has placed on us. Nowadays we epitomize this philosophy with thermonuclear intercontinental ballistic missiles and B-2 stealth bombers, but before the advent of the firearm, rocketry, and aircraft, the spear and the bow absolutely DOMINATED the field of battle. OK, so the spear is not the sexiest weapon, but it was clearly by far the most preferred because with a good spear you doubled(or more) the standoff range of that a sword could achieve.
A sword was a gentlemen or nobleman's weapon, more a sign of status than anything else, and was really a weapon of last resort(for when your spear got broken or was lost), or one intended for dueling against a weapon of similar design.
Even the legendary Samurai did not use the Sword as their primary weapon (naginata). Nor did the Romans(Pilum), English(Pike or Pole-arm), Greeks(Phalanx Spear), and so on down the line. The legendary European knights also did not employ the sword as their primary weapon, but instead used the lance for most mounted fighting. In reality it was not until the days of firearms that Cavalry's main melee weapon become the sabre(a weapon designed to fill a very specific role in it's own right, and one that has very specific properties as a result).
In melee combat, something along the lines of a five to six foot long spear with a 12-18" double-edged blade on either end would be very, very hard to beat. You certainly would never want to face a man(or feline) armed with one of those if all you had was a sword....and that's ANY sword!!! ;)
[..continuation of good points...]
Sincethe beginning of history the throwing spear until the fall of the western Roman Empire, eggining of the Middle Ages, the Javelin/throwing spear was the most used weapon in the known world, even the Greek armies used a great number of skirmishers, In the roman army the only warrios who didn´t used javelins was the spear-armed triarius, The germanic and celtic tribes went to war with 3-4 spears used for throwing and thrusting, -even the ones armed with claymores-. During the middle ages the thrusting spear replaced the javelin as the basic weapon on almost every army, being replaced by the alberd type of weapon by the time of the Reinassance.
My point is: How about the javelin? we should have at least a couple of javelin designs in Planeshift. They are ideal medium range weapons so i'm sure somewhere in the stone labirinths some race whould start throwing them over their own shock troops against the enemy. Or trow them at the distance to scare off the realy mean monsters, at least...
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Yeah, and near Javelins we should have just simple spears. I think the spears should be put in game before swords, because it is the spear, which was the first weapon in history and it was still used for very long time, along the swords.
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Following that, I would like to say that the simple axe was also more useful than swords. This was due to several reasons. One was that an axe is relitively simple to make, so can be crafted by less skilled smiths. Second, they use less high quality steel, and sometimes less material all together, so more can be made with a given amount of stock. Third, axes served more than one purpose, as they could be used for utility as well as battle. With an axe, you can chop trees to build baracades, then use them to defend. You can not do that with a sword. Finaly, an axe can be used against armored foes to much greater effect than a sword. A sword is mostly a peircing weapon, and can bounce of armor. An axe will cause damage to anthing it hits by concentrating all the force to a small area with minimum effort.
A small axe can be used to greatest effect, as it can have a blade on one side, a spike on the other, and a point at the tip. Add on a longer haft, and you have a weapon that can be used for slashing, pearcing, and longer range thrusting. If your haft breaks, a battlefield fix is not hard. If your sword breaks, you are out of luck.
Edit* Also, I would like to say now that swords were NEVER used for hunting.
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yeah, sure, why make weapon fast and effective, when you can make it heavy and same as effective, or in fact less effective, because so heavy. It's how thing like this one came to existance, when people let their imagination flow too much: ^^
I think that Soul edge beats that to be honest....
Who could even pick up soul edge anyway? its bigger than nightmare himself!
Still, i cant help but love it.
Nightmare has that big muscley demon-arm...
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how about get all the general weapons in first like spears halberts maces flails crossbows bows trowing weapons etc then some spesial weapons