PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xylaal on February 06, 2007, 04:00:23 pm

Title: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Xylaal on February 06, 2007, 04:00:23 pm: C'mon Staffers! I know this is your baby and you are protective but are you not in the least bit responsible for the incident Eid was trying to alert you to? Do you, staff, not take even a little responsibility for being slow on the uptake. It doesn't excuse what he did, it was against the rules - and we all know your staff has limited time - and yes, the game IS free and you are not paid - but if you are going to do a thing you should do it right or not do it at all. These can sometimes seem like excuses. Honesty and timeliness in your communication would have been preferred where it should perhaps been said that "Gosh, we'd like to Eid but we really don't have the personnel/ability to get right on that".

As I understand it, the problem was fixed rather quickly after he pulled his little stunt.

On a similar note, I do not vilify, nor do I blame all of you for this but clearly, upon occasion, you have issues with communication; you are human, and that is excusable. What is not excusable is a GM , on IRC, calling Eid "Hitler" and the demonization of a good character, a good person, a player that has, and is, loyal to this game and loves it. Do you not understand what would cause a person to do this? A player who has always played by the rules and who felt forced, compelled by what he saw as a BIG problem not being addressed.

Do what you'd like with this post, and ban me if you must...I hear it's all the rage these days to quell those voices who say things that are unpleasant. I had to post my views here because when I found out what had happened and why I felt so insulted by the one sidedness of this whole incident that it sadly soured the game for me. You must understand that from a players perspective it looks very different. To RolePlay, the players must believe in the game and they must have a blind trust in it. A trust that allows the character to get lost in the world and the mystery of the setting to be enjoyed. I have enjoyed this game and all of you very much. As a tester I hope you'll take my comments and improve your communication with players; even have designated testers who's sole responsibility is to test, forward players observations to you of the big problems in-game....or maybe you feel you have it covered by GM's (designated testers would be less intimidating and would be chosen from the folks who spend the most time in game) You'll see me peek in from time to time but I wont be in as much anymore. I am an older person an perhaps my patience with hypocrisies is more easily touched off than a younger...maybe I'm just a grump. But my friend Eid is a loyal player...know that.

One more thing. Talad. You have a great piece of art here. But when large issues are not addressed it foments frustration. Large issues should come first.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 06, 2007, 04:18:27 pm: Now, from all I've read so far on the forums (not going ingame for a while), I hope I've got this right. Ok, someone discovered a glitch that allowed you to dup items, such as silverweaves. Eid reported it, but nothing happened, so he began abusing it and dropped a bunch of silverweaves around in Hydlaa so they would realize what a problem it's becoming, and fix it. Am I right so far?

If I am right, I agree, Eid was doing the right thing. In fact, it's probably the smartest idea I've seen from a PlaneShifter, because I've had to deal with the staff being lazy for nearly 2 years now. I find bugs on the daily basis, but nothing is done. It's been monthes and there still isn't an update. Like you said, it's a free game, they're people, they have their own lives, but if they're going to start something like this, they should at least know how to handle it.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Zan on February 06, 2007, 04:45:24 pm: I don't know Eid and I won't even bother to guess at his intentions. I've heard a plethora of versions ranging from the 'elevated to martyrdom' ones to the 'I didn't do it, my account was hacked!' ones. What I do know is what happened and I also know that, no matter the intentions it harmed more people than it should have, because of that I consider Eid's actions unthoughtful at best. A better action would have been acquiring a full in-game report of possible exploiters by going undercover, get a list of all the names and activities of these exploiters and then hand that in to the authorities. A long list would probably wake up the right people. No need to make things actually a lot worse to get noticed.

The Devs aren't always fast to straighten out bugs and in the case of serious exploits this is sometimes harmful for the in-game environment. I think that a part of the problem lies with communication, another part of the problem can never be avoided. There will always be players who prefer to keep an exploitable bug to themselves and try to gain from it. It can be hard to track those individuals down and the GMs can't be expected to find them all, not even with the help of the community.

The other part is communication .. sometimes it's not very clear what is an exploit and what isn't. For example with the crafting system there are ways to increase stock quality over the 'issued' limit = 300. Some of these ways are nothing more than simply crafting an item with a good skilled background, is this wrong, should those crafters destroy their products or even stop crafting at all? Or is the limit simply programmed wrong and will all be rectified when it gets reprogrammed? Other ways consist of certain actions that can increase quality .. are those wrong? Are they exploits or are they intended?

Then there is of course the difficulty of reporting an exploit. Anyone with half a brain knows they can't be reported on the forums because everyone who wants to can abuse it then .. the same goes for the bugtracker. So what do we do? PM a random Dev/GM and hope it ends up where it should? Personally .. I wouldn't know who to contact with an exploit if I found one.

Along with that, the option to select the gravity of a bug on the bugtracker .. personally I haven't used it much simply because I don't know what would be considered bad and what not. I'm admittedly reluctant to post the worst, most urgent bugs up there. Also the level of reply on the bugtracker has been bugging (no pun intended :P) me lately. Especially with bigger issues it would definitely be nice to have at least a reply like "We're looking into it, thanks for the report." just so you know you were heard. I can't really say if this already happens in cases like this since I never really posted an exploit, but it doesn't with all types of bugs. That much I know.

I am not going to stand up for Eid, he got what he asked for in my eyes .. but maybe a revision of bug reporting: a safe way to report exploits quickly and a quicker response regarding to those issues wouldn't be a bad thing.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 06, 2007, 04:53:07 pm: We have at least 3 or 4 ways to report bugs now. They're reported in the masses already, but the staff is brushing them off.

It won't really matter anyway. In the next update or two, I garruntee you this bug will be back, I bet my life on it. Just like how the fire spell crash bug is back, the darkness bugs are back (now in rainbow colors), and other bugs that have been patched in the past. This game will never be finished because they can't take a little time to fix things and make sure they stay fixed. I don't even understand how they can actually bring back old bugs every single time they make an update. It's so annoying. When it's fixed it should stay fixed, but there's such a....neglect for these things, and because of that, they spend most of their time fixing bugs than making updates. The last update, or "version" whatever you want to call it, didn't do anything but fix bugs and bring back old ones. I didn't know Eid that well, but I can tell you his intentions were good. The staff needed a wake-up-call, and hopefully they're going to get their heads out of their asses and start paying more attention to these things.

Don't even start with the "it's a free game, they're people too" crap, because if they can't do what any staff on any other game can do and address these things, the game's going to die. I actually care about this game, I love the community, but the staff's neglect to these issues is going to be the game's end. All Eid did was make them address the problem sooner, and with the item and money wipe, he shouldn't be punished, he should be praised.

(I'm guessing he was banned?)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: eldoth_terevan on February 06, 2007, 05:09:40 pm: Eid has spent countless hours and days of his life in this game. He loved it, this was self-evident. I have posted most of what I wanted to say in the now-locked thread. I know that he believed what he did was necessary. But he has gotten a ban (for a year), and we must all move on. I am going to miss seeing him around...

The issue is really that these things should be reported directly to the dev team, PM's from this forum would seem to be best so that there is a document trail, and repeating the PM if nothing seems to be happening. Karyuu has even said to report them to her, if you cannot figure out who the report should go to. From my impressions from a number of players I have spoken to, it would seem that the communication on this issue may have broken down at the GM level. I cannot say for sure.

I want to add one more thing. Based upon my knowledge about MySQL... this replication between connections is odd. I am guessing that this is a particularly obscure bug, and that it is probably not obvious where or how it is occuring. I know that people on the team are working hard on it, and probably losing some sleep, or even going crazy trying to figure out why it is happening.

Later: If a GM really called Eid "Hitler" on IRC then that is inexcusable, and it underscores the issues that the players have with the GMs in game. Many of the GMs I have interacted with have been polite and nice to deal with. As I am to understand it, that is not the most common experience with the GM team. Of course, it is hard to tell with hearsay.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: ThomPhoenix on February 06, 2007, 05:17:21 pm: Suno_Regin, I think you are horribly spoiled by commercial games.
This is open-source, the support is as good as the community causes it to be.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Araye on February 06, 2007, 05:34:52 pm: I can see the frustration that may have caused Eid to use an exploit to the point of obsurdity to call attention to it. But...

Our job as testers is to find bugs and report them during our playing of the game. In my opinion, it is not our place to "force" the devs to fix a bug, even if we think it needs to be fixed NOW. Even if we see people using the exploit to cheat. All we can do is report the occurance to the GMs and hope the bug is fixed in the next release. Well maybe not "all" we can do; we could also do like Xillix and join the dev team.

I do agree with Suno to some degree that if this was a comercial product, bugs like this would be addressed quicker, but I disagree with his summation that the game will die. Frustrated players will leave, but the game will not die. I've personally seen several "generations" come and go now. It will live on, but maybe not in your computer.

I hope Eid was not banned and I hope the devs consider his frustration before banning him. We all make mistakes and his seems to have been noble.

I sometimes think that we (tester/players) feel we aren't being heard and that we feel we are more important than the other two groups (GMs/Devs). That our issues with the game needs to be addressed immediately. After all, without us, there is no game right? But we really are just the other third of the game. And an important thing for us to remember is that there will never be a lack of "us". So breaking rules to call attention to problems really isn't a good idea unless you really consider your martyrdom to be "that important".

I would like to take a moment and thank the Dev and GM team for their work on this game. I have seen so much progress since I first started playing and I do recognize the work you are all doing. I may disagree with things at times or I may think that progress in certain areas isn't happening fast enough (Xordan, how's the balancing of magic coming along? :innocent: ), but I can not be anything but thankful to each of you for your efforts.

Please consider "player frustration" when reading "harsh" posts.

Araye

edited for obscure wording
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 06, 2007, 05:39:05 pm: But no matter what the community does, only the staff has the power to fix these bugs. That's what I'm getting at.

If I could, like Araye said, I would join the dev team and put as much time as possible into fixing these things. I'm not very knowledged with computers, but if I was, I wouldn't let that go to waste, and I would actually fix these things as I see them. It seems like instead of fixing annoying bugs, they're busy banning people. Banning on a pre-alpha version is just stupid. There's gonna be a wipe, and probably another after that, which will get rid of all these exploits, so just fix the bugs, wipe, update what you need to, fix the bugs you're gonna somehow end up bringing back with that update, and finish the game. You focus on all the smallest things, like familiars...why do we even need those? They don't do anything. And groffletoe, what is that? Come on people, focus.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 06, 2007, 05:45:53 pm: Suno, you are being an absolute ass. Quit calling us lazy and stop pretending that you're somehow going through a sort of agony "dealing" with us for two years. What bull ::) If you want to be treated respectfully here let me tell you right now that you are taking the wrong approach. I'm sick of sugaring down my words all the time, and I'm sure you can deal with my own honesty.

You understand very little of priorities, abilities, and goals - that much has been proven. We do as much as we can, whenever we can. If that doesn't suit you well enough, please take your complaining elsewhere.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Parallo on February 06, 2007, 05:55:52 pm: Aye, the wipes are an inevitablity. Quit whining. I'm sure you don't want them to stop what they're already doing, right? Well complaining certainly doesn't encourage, particularly if they are doing it in their own free time. Even if I was being payed, I'd quit if my efforts were treated this way.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: ThomPhoenix on February 06, 2007, 06:08:06 pm: Quote
You focus on all the smallest things, like familiars...why do we even need those? They don't do anything. And groffletoe, what is that? Come on people, focus.
You keep amazing me, Suno... :(

Quote
It seems like instead of fixing annoying bugs, they're busy banning people.
Sigh, 1705 posts and you still haven't figured out that GMs aren't developers?

What you want is the developers to start seeing Planeshift as if it were their job.
You forget that for them Planeshift is just a hobby, the moment people force the devs to act as if they are at work, they'll quit.
No one ever said the development of Planeshift would be quick, the contrary actually. In my mind that's not bad at all, it's supposed to be fun after all. But if you can't cope with that...
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: acraig on February 06, 2007, 06:10:47 pm: Quote from: Suno_Regin on February 06, 2007, 05:39:05 pm
I'm not very knowledged with computers, but if I was, I wouldn't let that go to waste, and I would actually fix these things as I see them.

I'm not very knowledged about medicine but I would actually make paralyzed people walk again. I mean how lazy are they? Both the doctors for not fixing them and those lazy paralyzed people. Hell, their chair has wheels! How lazy is that? And some of them even stay in bed all day. Don't get me started on people in comas

I'm not very knowledged about science but I would actually develop warp drive. Our scientists today are so lazy, they've only got to the freaking Moon! Common people, focus, we should be heading to Vega by now. They are so lazy by focusing on things like fuel efficient cars and alternate power supplies. Wow those guys have their heads up their asses or what?

I'm not very knowledged about crime but I would stop all the murderers. Cops today now are so focused on things like stolen property and giving me a speeding ticket when I go 100 in a school zone. Lazy pigs, they can't be bothered to do the hard work and stop people robbing banks. I'd actually go to murderers and tell them "Hey! Stop murdering people" and they would and that would show them.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: ThomPhoenix on February 06, 2007, 06:12:22 pm: Good one! :D
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Zan on February 06, 2007, 06:15:13 pm: *cheers at Karyuu and Acraig*

...

*Then hopes that a few possibly good suggestions won't get lost because of one bitter player ranting about things he doesn't understand well*
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Minks on February 06, 2007, 06:19:14 pm: /sarcasmmode on

Average dude gets handed a voucher for a weekend in Disneyland. Rides are free, first-class hotel and meals are free, evening show is free.
AD has to wait five minutes for his crab cocktail :o.
And there's a construction site at the new ghost train ... OH NO!
AD stomps with his feet and tears his hair "I'll sue ya, lazy bunch of idiots, and anyway, where's my free party hat? :@#\"

/sarcasmmode off

C'mon my ranting friends, where's your common sense?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Janner on February 06, 2007, 06:33:58 pm: I don't agree with what he did, but it is what he thought he should do.
[Me] Finds a bug or think it is a bug, goes to IRC, "hello a Dev got a few mins please," versus replies, most not helpful, but ignore them, non of there business, Dev will say what is up. 1-1, explain, we then talk, a decision is made, some times they will log in to were I am monitor what is done or happening, instructions, a few test, and the problem is then known, dealt with there or researched then dealt with, I have done my Job as tester, Dev has or is doing there part, This is how in the main I deal with a problem. Would like to say, In all my dealings with Devs, never once had a bad word from them or found them to be any thing but helpful, or willing to help.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on February 06, 2007, 06:40:42 pm: We would be working if we were not responding here . . .

Eid is no hero, what he did was lame. Any player who encounters a game breaking bug should corner a dev or gm and ask to show them exactly how grievous the problem is instead of taking the mean spirited approach of "vigilante" <--this was cowardly and not forthright in any way.

Not only did this make good players lose some of the stuff they earned fairly, X-/ but it required hours and hours so that the wipe could be handled as kindly as possible to the good players.

If you have been with PS for a long time now please stand up to this idiocy. Do not sit idly by while people you know push things to the point of requiring a wipe. Tell us immedaitely AND show us what the problem is. Display how it is done in real time with a gm or dev. Throughout the whole of this crisis I was available in irc 12-16 hours a day for someone to show me the problem.

Do not take the cowardly mean spirited whiney way.

Take the noble forthright honest way.

Calling us lazy is ignorant, and unfathomably rude.

to those players who are friends of PS:

keep the devs off the forums by shutting down such rediculous arguments from within the player community. I am going back to work now . . .

enjoy the game. :love:
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: bilbous on February 06, 2007, 07:03:57 pm: Are we still talking about this? How has this thread not been locked yet?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Nikodemus on February 06, 2007, 07:13:30 pm: There is one thing what Suno said I think is worth commenting in positive light. The bit about bugs being fixed in one relese and broken in the same way in the next. This is worrying, but...
We can't be sure if it is really true. We may be deceived, as most of us don't know enough about programming and more important, we aren't devs and can't examine the problem personally, as good as we claim we could.
Sometimes i sit on something in blender, I stare on that 3D model and can't figure a thing what i'm going to do next to make the model be as it should. The conclussion is simple. Sometimes a problem is not as simple as it looks like from a distance.
But as i said, it is worrying that sometimes the same bugs come back, like they were the same. You could think that devs constanly erase each another job, by comminting their patches. But only devs know if it is the issue and i doubt they wouldn't try it eliminate such a problem.

As for Eid being a hero or not. For me he is just another tester, who thought what he did was needed. But there are two issues with this:
1. Everything would be fine if devs hadn't have to spent extra time on figuring what kind of wipe to do and how to do it. If not this, they would just continue fixing bugs, but with changed order.
2. We do have to punish exloiters somehow, so just for example Eid had to be puniched.

And there is the problem with the bank guy who lost money of 99% of the investors.

Quote
Are we still talking about this? How has this thread not been locked yet?
coz we like to post ;P
and it was fun to read Acraig post ;D
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 06, 2007, 07:21:24 pm: The fellow who made the statement he wasn't Knowledgeable with computers. was saying IF HE DID have that knowledge he Would join the dev team. It wasn't that hard to understand what he was saying. His statement seemed to me, to be one of some one who simply feels their hands are tied in such things. I must say I was not surprised by how his statement was reinterpreted nor the response he got.
It is a good example of the point I was making Earlier. I can only accept the first rule, and move on.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 07:30:33 pm: Eid did not do the right thing.

He did the right thing based on what he knew at the time. I don't think he realized that there were alternatives, and I don't think he realized how much time it was going to take to clean up the mess.

Quote from: eldoth_terevan on February 06, 2007, 05:09:40 pm
Later: If a GM really called Eid "Hitler" on IRC then that is inexcusable, and it underscores the issues that the players have with the GMs in game.

The GMs are a good bunch, but I can definately believe that something like that was said on IRC. The culture on #planeshift is despicable. The moderation is poor, and people use it as an opportunity to say nasty things about others. I was even banned from IRC for a good long time because I was monitoring it using a moniker people wouldn't recognize me by, and in the process I caught a staff member saying a few things to someone else that he didn't want me to hear. So I was banned for reading something while others are allowed to make offensive comments so openly.

Ah, the wonders of the internet.:)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: acraig on February 06, 2007, 07:32:46 pm: How else I am supposed to react to somebody that called me and our team "lazy" and have our "heads up our asses". Fixing bugs is not as easy as fixing a tire. There are no easy answers and often times no answers at all for a while. If people hate the game that's fine, that does not give them the right to make outlandish claims about our work ethic or how we run our operation. If his hands are tied he shouldn't be throwing insults.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: ThomPhoenix on February 06, 2007, 07:41:11 pm: Yup, when you want things to change it's better to use constructive criticism than being offensive.
Offensiveness causes people to get angry and that won't help anything at all.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Narure on February 06, 2007, 07:44:14 pm: Quote
If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.
- Maya Angelou

*grumbles* stupid bilbous has got that website stuck in my head now.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Xylaal on February 06, 2007, 08:00:02 pm: Well then.

Please reread my initial entry. I am of the opinion that the game is bettered when we communicate. I thought, through starting this thread and posting my feelings, that we could engage in an introspective dialog that could possibly bring out some solutions - a better way. I am disappointed. But I know how these forums go so...that's all...I'll shut up now.

[Acraig; your first post was very funny and I laughed out loud...I understand your all trying hard and meant to cast no aspersions upon the teams work ethic - just hoped for more openness about the process]
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 08:01:34 pm: Quote from: acraig on February 06, 2007, 07:32:46 pm
How else I am supposed to react to somebody that called me and our team "lazy" and have our "heads up our asses".

It's possible that a little more understanding and tact could have been beneficial in this situation. There are people who agree with what Eid did and there are people who don't see the dev team in a positive light. Being rude to those individuals will only reinforce their impressions.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 06, 2007, 08:16:38 pm: Acreg , Please. I do understand the level of frustration you and the rest of the team face. Finding that one repeating incorrect line of code in a sea of code is not an easy thing. Fixing code that has already been written is not easy. I do not think the dev. team is lazy. There is however, reality and then there is perception. That particular type of reaction dose not help things. If there is the perception the dev. teams will laugh people off the player base will react in kind. It is understandable that the team would take offense at the implication/accusation of Lazy. But that is not what your response was directed to.
The commenter was belittled when they where expressing a desire to help even though they did not have the means. That leaves the readers of the thread with the perception that the offense was taken at the idea someone wanted to help, and not what actually offended you. Of course you would take offense at the implication of being called lazy. most of the dev team works a full day, comes home only to work X amount of hours on the game. However, in the same way the dev. team has earned the respect of many, for the many hours of work and creativity they also have lost respect due to commentary that is unbecoming to people with your caliber.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Redic on February 06, 2007, 08:21:44 pm: It is comments like these

<acraig>If you want to continue I suggest in emails or whatever channels you want, except here.
<acraig>The forums are MINE as well so I will not tolerate

<Cinerar>Caarrie, if I have an idea or something, should I say it or just shut up?
* Edichogained a little experience
<Caarrie>if it means more frequent updates dont say it that as medium.

<Vengeance>Many devs don't even come to this channel anymore because of the constant hassle of "helpful" suggestions.

That take away from the respect and loyalty to the dev team and GM's (im sorry i seem to have lost the post where Xillix compared Eid to hitler)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Zan on February 06, 2007, 08:22:56 pm: constructive people, constructive ... that means you have something to add, not just badmouthing others publically.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: acraig on February 06, 2007, 08:26:55 pm: Quote from: Redic on February 06, 2007, 08:21:44 pm
It is comments like these

<acraig>If you want to continue I suggest in emails or whatever channels you want, except here.
<acraig>The forums are MINE as well so I will not tolerate
<Cinerar>Caarrie, if I have an idea or something, should I say it or just shut up?
* Edichogained a little experience
<Caarrie>if it means more frequent updates dont say it that as medium.
<Vengeance>Many devs don't even come to this channel anymore because of the constant hassle of "helpful" suggestions.

That take away from the respect and loyalty to the dev team and GM's (im sorry i seem to have lost the post where Xillix compared Eid to hitler)

Way to take stuff out of context. Perhaps you'd like to post the hours before hand of the tedious exchange where an IRC member had some personal vendetta he was trying to score points with, and using the IRC channel we set up to do so. People like to assume the worst about us it seems.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 09:01:18 pm: Quote from: acraig on February 06, 2007, 08:26:55 pm
Way to take stuff out of context. Perhaps you'd like to post the hours before hand of the tedious exchange where an IRC member had some personal vendetta he was trying to score points with, and using the IRC channel we set up to do so. People like to assume the worst about us it seems.

Andrew, with reactions like that, I'm afraid you're making it easier for people to assume the worst about you.

You're misrepresenting what happened on IRC that day. The exchange did not last for "hours" - it was closer to 10 minutes. The conflict was also more complicated than a "personal vendetta" or "trying to score points". Getting kicked from the chat without warning for having the moniker "Eid is cool"? It might have been appropriate, but surely you can understand why someone might react negatively to that - especially if they had bad experiences previously with the one who kicked them.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: acraig on February 06, 2007, 09:04:17 pm: Believe what you want.

And for what it's worth I think Xylaal raised some good issues in his opening post until the thread got bogged down to the point of mud slinging.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Nikodemus on February 06, 2007, 09:07:30 pm: Quote
People like to assume the worst about us it seems.
nah, one just can get depresed a bit after what was said there. Heck, Xylaal did not create this topic to build such a feeling, but something opposite. To invent a way of even better communication, so that even less people will think devs are doing something wrong. They are wrong and PS is the proof, even if it doesn't shine like the products at the bookshelves, which are supposed to be good.
We are quite lucky we have such a community, where we can joke and talk about things, which somewhere else would be inappropriate. I'm happy that you can feel that a dev will take your ideas seriously and you can talk about it like with a normal person. Of course nothing is perfect, Xylaal wouldn't make a post othrwise.
That's what counts, not times when someone is in bad mood and say things, which normally wouldn't see light.
I'm also happy Acraig owns the forums \o/ hehe
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Roahn on February 06, 2007, 09:27:55 pm: It sounds to me like people are suggesting that the devs are lazy for not fixing bugs. I don't think this is the case. Let me clarify how I feel, and I suspect many others feel the same way.

Eid's actions were against the rules of Planeshift, but he did it for the purpose of pressuring the devs to fix the duplication bug. I personally reported the bug in early December, demonstrating to a GM in-game exactly how to duplicate practically any item. The GM followed my simple instructions, and was able to duplicate items, and saw how amazingly simple it was. We both agreed that, since it was so simple a process, many others would soon discover the bug by accident just as I did, and then the PS economy would be destroyed. Our predictions proved true, as over the next few weeks, I noticed more and more characters suddenly becoming overnight millionaires. The economy of PS was destroyed weeks ago.

During these two months, the bug was not fixed... but several models of helmets were added. The light glyph was added, though it isn't usable without using an exploit to raise Crystal Way. Vortex glyph was added, along with a flashy but useless spell. Mind glyph was added, with no apparent spell. More glyphs were added. Then more monsters were added to the already packed arena!

We were watching more and more features being added to PS instead of this horrible bug getting fixed. It was obvious that the devs were not lazy, but rather focusing on adding things more than fixing things.

24 hours after Eid's escapade, the duplication bug was fixed. A few hours after that, the mini-wipe got rid of most of the ill-gotten gains from the bug. Now, I see more people mining again, and looting rogues and gladiators again. Things seem to finally be back to normal, and the economy back on track. Thank you, Eid, for making it clear to the GMs and devs how serious this bug was, and thank you devs for fixing the bug and doing the wipe.

-Roahn
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: eldoth_terevan on February 06, 2007, 09:45:47 pm: This game is like a rainbow dragon. Each person loves different colors or different details, but nothing is the same after you have seen it living and breathing before you in all of its glory. I think that one thing that everybody who was involved in this situation shares is a love of this game. I think that is a very good thing. Eid is part of the community, even more now that he is gone. I think the discussion here is good, and I am happy that this issue has been put to bed, it was making people miserable in game for a while. Now we can get back to important things, such as the new tr*cough*rs in br*cough*oors, new other stuff, and the healing of the economy and community. @acraig: Umm, that is the lady Xylaal, my friend...
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 06, 2007, 09:48:49 pm: my comments as fallows where not mean as insult, nor as mud slinging.

I will repost here in the hope that my point can be understood in context.

"Acreg , Please. I do understand the level of frustration you and the rest of the team face. Finding that one repeating incorrect line of code in a sea of code is not an easy thing. Fixing code that has already been written is not easy. I do not think the dev. team is lazy. There is however, reality and then there is perception. That particular type of reaction dose not help things. If there is the perception the dev. teams will laugh people off the player base will react in kind. It is understandable that the team would take offense at the implication/accusation of Lazy. But that is not what your response was directed to.
The commenter was belittled when they where expressing a desire to help even though they did not have the means. That leaves the readers of the thread with the perception that the offense was taken at the idea someone wanted to help, and not what actually offended you. Of course you would take offense at the implication of being called lazy. most of the dev team works a full day, comes home only to work X amount of hours on the game. However, in the same way the dev. team has earned the respect of many, for the many hours of work and creativity they also have lost respect due to commentary that is unbecoming to people with your caliber."

whenever someone from the Dev. team speaks in their Dev. persona. It is perceived as the official voice of planeshift. Commentary that is less than respectful by the staff generates ill will in general. People will be less likely to report problems. Less likely to cooperate with the Dev team, and More likely to abuse the game. Even when the frustration behind such commentary is justified. I am not casting judgments, nor am I placing blame. It is simply an observation. I will also point out, that while the words of the PS staff weigh more heavily than those of others; Everyone has the responsibility to speak respectfully. Respect for each other is in short supply. It is important we remember : you can disagree with a point but to attack an individual because you are in disagreement is uncalled for. We are intelligent and civilized people.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: neko kyouran on February 06, 2007, 10:03:28 pm: Here, here!

Respect is key. Suno, please learn some, k? Thanks.

As for everyone else, thanks for trying to stay constructive with your critism. It's makes things much better if we all stay on that side of the fense.

As for the issues about communication that was brought up.....yep, I've seen that too. But to a certain degree, I've just grown to accept some of it, just becuase of what this project is, and how it is going about. Nature of the beast, so to say.

But, there are times where, if I truely feel it to be urgent, I will poke and prod until I hear a deffinate answer from someone one way or the another on the issue. And even then I may still poke and prod.

And that's really what everyone should do. Now, I'm not saying bother every dev you see every single moment, as that will most likely just scare them away. They scare easy, these dev creatures. One has to be a little quiet to observe them in their natural habit, elsethey go into hiding. *ends nature show reference for humor*

But if you report a bug, and don't hear back after a dev says they'll look into it, or have a bug to report, simply follow up on it every couple of weeks with someone. It doesn't even have to be the same person. Send me a PM and I'll try to get it to the right person and get you a response.

This is a two way street here, and we all have to work together in order to improve things.

And at the base of that, is respect for one another.
Title: Re: Added features
Post by: dfryer on February 06, 2007, 10:16:05 pm: Quote
During these two months, the bug was not fixed... but several models of helmets were added. The light glyph was added, though it isn't usable without using an exploit to raise Crystal Way. Vortex glyph was added, along with a flashy but useless spell. Mind glyph was added, with no apparent spell. More glyphs were added. Then more monsters were added to the already packed arena!

The people able to debug the item duping problem are almost completely disjoint from the people involved in adding glyphs, helmets, effects, spells and monsters - none of the latter involves new code! And of those few people able to debug the problem, some may have been busy, some may have had a look at it and made no progress, and some may have considered it a lower priority since we know that there have been exploits and problems in the past. It's very frustrating when someone "forces" an issue in the name of the greater good, because while it does fix one particular problem *right now*, it causes ripples of trouble through the entire community & development team.

I know that it's frustrating to be playing a game that sometimes just "doesn't work" in some way or another, and that it's frustrating that the developers aren't often in-game getting a feel for the current dynamics of gameplay, bugs and all. Is it so terrible that some of us have priorities that aren't centered around how much fun people are having *right now*? I think that the "seriousness" and widespread nature of this bug could have been demonstrated without flagrant violation of the game rules. If convincing one GM isn't enough, convince two, or snag the ear of a passing dev in #planeshift or #planeshift-build. Not all of us are master bug-fixers, so it takes some momentum to get the attention of the few that we have. Just.. please don't gain that momentum at the expense of everyone else.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on February 06, 2007, 10:16:47 pm: I did not say he was like hitler

someone said he thought he did the right thing

I said:

so did hitler

to invoke

Godwin's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

hoping the argument would die.

if someone showed a gm and it did not work to fix the problem then come to me or another dev.

this argument is dead.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Siteri Kidachi on February 06, 2007, 10:24:50 pm: By the way, Xillix... If you read that article carefully, it says that if you intentionally mention Hitler just to end discussion, it doesn't count.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on February 06, 2007, 10:30:32 pm: sure the i will add Xillix's law whereby if I invoke the name of hitler . . .

btw it also says "There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress."

So i lose

woot

game over.

whatever you want me arguing or writing for you?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Esserfin on February 06, 2007, 10:53:43 pm: Quote from: Roahn on February 06, 2007, 09:27:55 pm
24 hours after Eid's escapade, the duplication bug was fixed. A few hours after that, the mini-wipe got rid of most of the ill-gotten gains from the bug. Now, I see more people mining again, and looting rogues and gladiators again. Things seem to finally be back to normal, and the economy back on track.

[i'm not complaining, i don't want to flame, etc....]

If we have to assume that to see so many newcomers killing gladiators with one hit of their new deserved sw weapons....than it's all back to normal. And, maybe, most of them will repair them too really fast when the quality will drop...

[propositive part]

As i said in another post if we want to change the economy seriously we need to change the prices of weapons and ores around. A strange cap will not fix it.
A gladiator that most of the players can kill drops weapons up to 2000 or so trias....an ulber heart is 560 trias.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 10:56:40 pm: Worry about the economy once people are able to craft iron weapons. Until then, we're living in the moment.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Esserfin on February 06, 2007, 11:02:11 pm: Quote from: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 10:56:40 pm
Worry about the economy once people are able to craft iron weapons. Until then, we're living in the moment.

A really long moment afaicr :)
To craft Iron weapons will not fix the problem ...there will be always people killing an easy gradiator for a loot from 300 to 2000 or so trias. Forgot to mention (again) that easy gradiators/rogues are part of the problem too.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 06, 2007, 11:18:04 pm: Quote from: acraig on February 06, 2007, 06:10:47 pm
Quote from: Suno_Regin on February 06, 2007, 05:39:05 pm
I'm not very knowledged with computers, but if I was, I wouldn't let that go to waste, and I would actually fix these things as I see them.

I'm not very knowledged about medicine but I would actually make paralyzed people walk again. I mean how lazy are they? Both the doctors for not fixing them and those lazy paralyzed people. Hell, their chair has wheels! How lazy is that? And some of them even stay in bed all day. Don't get me started on people in comas

I'm not very knowledged about science but I would actually develop warp drive. Our scientists today are so lazy, they've only got to the freaking Moon! Common people, focus, we should be heading to Vega by now. They are so lazy by focusing on things like fuel efficient cars and alternate power supplies. Wow those guys have their heads up their asses or what?

3 pages already, wow...I don't feel like reading the other 2, so I'm just reading back on the first page. You're right, doctors are lazy. =P

The way I see it, a cure for cancer could exist already, but if they don't make it, they get more money from people paying for minor treatment. Sure, this might not be the best example of whats going on here, but I think the updates move slowly along because if there's just enough of a period between updates for people to slightly get bored, then there comes a new...groffletoe, thing to keep them amused for a few more days. =P

...Ok, I'm wrong there. Might not be the best example, but everything that's stalled has a reason similar to this. Like, say you're waiting for something to come out in stores. You see it advertised so much, you're obsessed over it but can't get it. You wait a long time...finally it comes. Everyone was waiting so long, they'd pay as much money as they could for it once it comes. The company knows that by waiting long, they make more money, not only from people offering top dollar, but from all the little snipbits they sell to people to hold them off.

Now the reason why I'm giving these examples. PlaneShift does a similar thing. We have long times before each major update, so to hold us off, we get small things, like groffletoe or pets, and crafting (which isn't really a small thing, but compared to how much more you have planned to go...yeah), to hold us off and keep game activity going until they decide to release the update and attract more people to the game. Sure, you're not making any money, but it's all about the game's popularity, right? =P

I'm not really accusing anyone of being greedy or anything, but like I said before, all of the stalling these kinds of things do have a reason SIMILAR, to what I've mentioned. The longer you wait, the better things turn out for the creator of this "product" in the end. If we ignored all the small things and tackled the larger ones, like the bug Eid got banned for, and actually stopped banning people for bugs that could be fixed if you put a little time into it, this game would probably be near finished by now, and this thread wouldn't even exist.

When you put little bits of time into things every week or so, larger things begin to develope, that we players, or "testers" come across, since we put more time into finding these things. But because the developers keep putting it off, the situation grows worse. The reason why this was finally addressed because Eid almost completely overturned the community by what he did, just to finally get your attention.

Quote
I'm not very knowledged about crime but I would stop all the murderers. Cops today now are so focused on things like stolen property and giving me a speeding ticket when I go 100 in a school zone. Lazy pigs, they can't be bothered to do the hard work and stop people robbing banks. I'd actually go to murderers and tell them "Hey! Stop murdering people" and they would and that would show them.

I'm not a person to break down posts, but I wanted to address this specifically. Cops are actually more busy arresting people who DON'T hurt someone, than stopping murderers. A few personal things happened, which got "someone" put in jail for 6 monthes, which was a really small thing. Yet, someone kills someone or attempts a murder, and get put in for 2 monthes. If you don't believe me, watch more cop shows or something. Especially when they arrest someone who's going over the speed limit a little bit, and actually spike his tires and get 6 people to yank him out the window. I'd rather you'd not used that example, acraig. Oh, and the "someone" wasn't me, but I don't really want to tell you who it was.

(Oh, and I don't really go online anymore, since I get crashed every few seconds. Whoever said I'm complaining about the wipe, get a clue.)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 06, 2007, 11:19:42 pm: Are you posting just to shove your foot deeper in your mouth? :) This is unbelievable.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 11:21:41 pm: Suno_Regin, you're being a bit narrowminded and paranoid. Are you sure that you mean all that you're writing?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 06, 2007, 11:38:43 pm: yes please. take the high road and let it go. You made a comment that he found offensive, he had a human moment and lashed out, now you are lashing back. lay to rest this back and forth tounge lashing. Start fresh and do it from the standpoint of common respect. Not just as you speaking from your point of view, but also in respect for your fellow players to whom your commentary reflect.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Akaye on February 06, 2007, 11:42:59 pm: ??? All I have to say on all of this is I am truly disappionted that the maturity level in this community has dropped in the last few months. I really wish certain individuals would learn how to be constructive and come up with solutions rather than bitching. Don't you realise you would be taken more seriously then? Isn't that what we want? To solve issues? To have the players taken seriously? To have a peaceful enviroment with player working with the game creators? The easy part is to point out mistakes, and it is even easier to point fingers and blame. What isn't so easy is people working together to fix these mistakes. I just don't see that here in this thread with certain individuals.

The player "Eid" seems to been dealt with as any other player would have been if exploiting a bug. He knows the rules. If he is a devoted player then he knows (Or should!) the consequences of his actions. Period. The Dev's or GM's don't need to explain themselves and the players need to open their eyes and learn from Eid's mistakes as Eid is learning this mistake the hard way and is an example to us all. I am not entirely sure what punishment was dealt out to Eid but I back up anything that the Gm/Dev team have decided. I trust them to be mature about the situation and make the right decisions, because these people are also loyal to the game (as some have said about eid) and have it's best interests at heart. That my friends is something you should trust in, and stop attacking the team when something doesn't go the way you think it should. Instead ask why and show your interest and concern. Then either accept the answer as is and move on or come up with a solution that the planeshift team can work with. Dropping silverweaves in the plaza is not helping anything, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

@Gwinn Ravenn: It is no surprize that suno is known as the communities #1 complainer. If he has an issue with those who post back to him, let him defend and deal with it himself. Your not helping anything. :/
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 11:45:19 pm: Quote from: Akaye on February 06, 2007, 11:42:59 pm
The player "Eid" seems to been dealt with as any other player would have been if exploiting a bug. He knows the rules. If he is a devoted player then he knows (Or should!) the consequences of his actions. Period.

Eid knew he was going to get banned. He did what he did to draw attention to the exploit, and he expected to be punished for it.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 06, 2007, 11:52:03 pm: Quote from: Akaye on February 06, 2007, 11:42:59 pm
??? All I have to say on all of this is I am truly disappionted that the maturity level in this community has dropped in the last few months. I really wish certain individuals would learn how to be constructive and come up with solutions rather than bitching. Don't you realise you would be taken more seriously then? Isn't that what we want? To solve issues? To have the players taken seriously? To have a peaceful enviroment with player working with the game creators? The easy part is to point out mistakes, and it is even easier to point fingers and blame. What isn't so easy is people working together to fix these mistakes. I just don't see that here in this thread with certain individuals.

The player "Eid" seems to been dealt with as any other player would have been if exploiting a bug. He knows the rules. If he is a devoted player then he knows (Or should!) the consequences of his actions. Period. The Dev's or GM's don't need to explain themselves and the players need to open their eyes and learn from Eid's mistakes as Eid is learning this mistake the hard way and is an example to us all. I am not entirely sure what punishment was dealt out to Eid but I back up anything that the Gm/Dev team have decided. I trust them to be mature about the situation and make the right decisions, because these people are also loyal to the game (as some have said about eid) and have it's best interests at heart. That my friends is something you should trust in, and stop attacking the team when something doesn't go the way you think it should. Instead ask why and show your interest and concern. Then either accept the answer as is and move on or come up with a solution that the planeshift team can work with. Dropping silverweaves in the plaza is not helping anything, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

@Gwinn Ravenn: It is no surprize that suno is known as the communities #1 complainer. If he has an issue with those who post back to him, let him defend and deal with it himself. Your not helping anything. :/

zorbels, take some time to see this through the eyes of a normal player. You're saying what you're saying because since you're a GM, you hold a strict position in enforcing rules, but if you were a normal player again, you would realize that this was needed. This problem was fixed a lot sooner and more seriously because of what Eid did. If he had done nothing, it would have gone unchecked and everyone would be abusing this and powerleveling. He caused the long-needed wipe to happen, though it was a small one, and things are actually balanced again. So he's banned for it now? It doesn't matter if he broke the rules, he helped the community out, kept it from becoming unbalanced and corrupt.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: emeraldfool on February 07, 2007, 12:05:39 am: Quote from: Karyuu on February 06, 2007, 05:45:53 pm
Suno, you are being an absolute ass. Quit calling us lazy and stop pretending that you're somehow going through a sort of agony "dealing" with us for two years. What bull ::)

Wow, Karyuu finally flipped out.

Damn, wish I'd thought to start a pool...
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: josephoenix on February 07, 2007, 12:09:38 am: You know, accepting a position as developer, artist, writer, director, game-master, irc op, or forum moderator gets you free access to a room with padded walls so that you can scream and beat your fists against the wall in frustration without disturbing the rest of the community. It's like being part of a golf club, only a lot more stressful :P

josePhoenix
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 07, 2007, 12:10:21 am: in response to the following:
"@Gwinn Ravenn: It is no surprize that suno is known as the communities #1 complainer. If he has an issue with those who post back to him, let him defend and deal with it himself. Your not helping anything. :/"

How is pointing out that line of commentary as being unproductive unhelpful. defusing an escalating situation is not unproductive. To ask some one to step back, take a moment to think before they comment out of anger or hurt feeling is not counter productive. Even if he is a constant complainer, he may from time to time have a valid point. Anyone can change their ways. I am sorry but I can not write anyone off. My child complains very often, but I do not ignore everything he says because I know that. If he begins to post respectfully it has done good. If he does not then most likely he will be ignored. Who is to say what is helpful, and what is not. My comments are neither hostile nor vindictive. therefore I stand by my post.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 12:14:09 am: Quote from: Suno_Regin
Zorbels, take some time to see this through the eyes of a normal player. You're saying what you're saying because since you're a GM, you hold a strict position in enforcing rules, but if you were a normal player again, you would realize that this was needed. This problem was fixed a lot sooner and more seriously because of what Eid did. If he had done nothing, it would have gone unchecked and everyone would be abusing this and powerleveling. He caused the long-needed wipe to happen, though it was a small one, and things are actually balanced again. So he's banned for it now? It doesn't matter if he broke the rules, he helped the community out, kept it from becoming unbalanced and corrupt.

You need to check your head suno. Assumtions are for ass****s and everyone has one.

I am not saying this because I am a GM. I truly care about this project and this is WHY I became a GM. I started out as a player and I will always be a player. A Gm is a player with rules to enforce. They are not much different from your average player and this is something the community forgets because of the title we bear. It really is a shame. I have never forgotten my time as a newbie and I always fight for the players side of things IF they are truly good suggestions that may work or situations in which they were wronged. I have enough faith in this community to know that those who know me know I am speaking the truth. If I was a normal player I would have made the same post.

It was not right of him to drop silverweaves in the middle of the plaza. He is not going to get the "your a hero" reward. There were many other ways this bug could have been reported to the Dev's and Gm's. If one failed then try another. Just don't give up at one and take matters into your own hands. He got the punishment he deserved. Period. Suno, it is done and over. Deal with it. Your posts hold no good argument and are just a bunch of hot air.

@Gwinn: Never mind. You wanna talk about this? Then use the pm button. It has no place in this thread. Seems to me from all your posts your just looking to argue. Well pm away.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Esserfin on February 07, 2007, 12:33:34 am: Quote from: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 12:14:09 am
It was not right of him to drop silverweaves in the middle of the plaza. He is not going to get the "your a hero" reward. There were many other ways this bug could have been reported to the Dev's and Gm's. If one failed then try another. Just don't give up at one and take matters into your own hands. He got the punishment he deserved. Period.

I can only agree about this. We had similar problems in the past, like the 'outstanding slash' sword i still remember that was able to fix your trias problem for a long time if sold. The problem usually is about who find a bug first. So let me say one last thing:
Everyone who discover a serious bug *please* report it immediatly and never spoke about it around too much (or never do it). Contact GMs and Devs, PM them, rush the IRC...go to their home and poke them personally. But try not to spread the issue around. If this bug has been around since December and people have spoken about it around than there's nothing we can do to prevent a wipe.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 12:40:07 am: Quote
You need to check your head suno. Assumtions are for ass****s and everyone has one.

You do realize what you just said, right?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 12:42:58 am: Yes I do it is a famous quote. From your reaction to it I don't think you get it, but remember I am not the one who assumed. You done yet? ::)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Memnaur on February 07, 2007, 12:43:20 am: Up to now I've always tried to restrict my comments to those which are constructive, positive, and supportive of the dev team...but the last several posts have gotten absurd. Xylaal raised some valid concerns when she started this thread, and so far the moderators, devs, and IRCops that represent PS have been so busy being reactive to criticism, vilifying Eid, and insulting players that only _ONE_ of you have taken time to address the issues she raised.

Look, you are taking part in a public project that is on the INTERNET. Anyone who has ever sat in a college Social Psychology class understands that the anonymity of this medium will evoke the absolute worst in the public, and they will say things here that they would never say to your face. Being reactive to these folks who throw bombs does nothing but assure that the esteem that we players feel towards you will be lessened. Your only reinforcing Xylaal's point that communication between players and PS staff needs to improve.

This is normally the point in my post where I gush platitudes and praise for the hard work that you all do, but for now, I'll just sign off...

Steamed and Disappointed,

Memnaur
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 12:47:22 am: Quote from: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 12:42:58 am
Yes I do it is a famous quote. From your reaction to it I don't think you get it, but remember I am not the one who assumed. You done yet? ::)

You just said everyone has one, so you're basically calling everyone in the community an ass****.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: eldoth_terevan on February 07, 2007, 12:47:59 am: Quote from: zanzibar on February 06, 2007, 11:45:19 pm
Quote from: Akaye on February 06, 2007, 11:42:59 pm
The player "Eid" seems to been dealt with as any other player would have been if exploiting a bug. He knows the rules. If he is a devoted player then he knows (Or should!) the consequences of his actions. Period.

Eid knew he was going to get banned. He did what he did to draw attention to the exploit, and he expected to be punished for it.

Eid knew exactly what he was doing.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 12:51:53 am: But why be banned for it? So that the community actually will get ruined? Is that what the point in banning him is? He actually got the long-needed wipe to take place, and stopped the devs from picking their noses to actually get on this serious problem. He doesn't deserve to be banned. I don't care if it was against the rules, you know that anyone exploiting this bug was supposed to be banned too, why only ban the person trying to fix the problem?

Now here comes the part where everyone calls me an ass****, but I really don't care, you can say it all you want. I'm going back to what I first said, all of this crap is going to lead to the game dying, because the community does nothing but exploit this crap. Does it take a little exploiting to actually get your attention on the subject? And why only address this one bug? There are hundreds, get on those too, or does someone have to exploit them publically to get you to fix those as well?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Robinmagus on February 07, 2007, 12:52:47 am: Quote from: Roahn on February 06, 2007, 09:27:55 pm
It sounds to me like people are suggesting that the devs are lazy for not fixing bugs. I don't think this is the case. Let me clarify how I feel, and I suspect many others feel the same way.

Eid's actions were against the rules of Planeshift, but he did it for the purpose of pressuring the devs to fix the duplication bug. I personally reported the bug in early December, demonstrating to a GM in-game exactly how to duplicate practically any item. The GM followed my simple instructions, and was able to duplicate items, and saw how amazingly simple it was. We both agreed that, since it was so simple a process, many others would soon discover the bug by accident just as I did, and then the PS economy would be destroyed. Our predictions proved true, as over the next few weeks, I noticed more and more characters suddenly becoming overnight millionaires. The economy of PS was destroyed weeks ago.

During these two months, the bug was not fixed... but several models of helmets were added. The light glyph was added, though it isn't usable without using an exploit to raise Crystal Way. Vortex glyph was added, along with a flashy but useless spell. Mind glyph was added, with no apparent spell. More glyphs were added. Then more monsters were added to the already packed arena!

We were watching more and more features being added to PS instead of this horrible bug getting fixed. It was obvious that the devs were not lazy, but rather focusing on adding things more than fixing things.

24 hours after Eid's escapade, the duplication bug was fixed. A few hours after that, the mini-wipe got rid of most of the ill-gotten gains from the bug. Now, I see more people mining again, and looting rogues and gladiators again. Things seem to finally be back to normal, and the economy back on track. Thank you, Eid, for making it clear to the GMs and devs how serious this bug was, and thank you devs for fixing the bug and doing the wipe.

-Roahn
Interesting post there for review...

He broke a rule and most of the team seems to believe in concrete rules. I personally don't like anything set in stone, and like to make exceptions, changes, and such to rules with every unique case that comes by, which in my opinion is what makes a rule a good one, and one to be followed and enforced fully.

Now, no need to call Suno an ass****. Because as far as I'm concerned Zorbels, you have taken a step below him, and sure he will continue to take steps below you, and so forth, but namecalling of that sort shouldn't be put in this public forum. And no, everyone under 18 doesn't automatically skip over those carefully placed asteriks. (or whatever you call them) Also, I think that your position does give your opinion a bit of a bias slant on this subject, conciously or not

This is all pointless mud slinging now, and I do think that the first page was the only one worth keeping, other than the quote above, which I do ask you to review once more, very interesting variation in response times between the two approaches.

Again, just my opinions. No need to call me an ass.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 07, 2007, 12:54:12 am: I am very sorry you feel that way. The theme of all of my posts is regarding respect in general. Observational , not argumentative at all The comments are indeed appropriate in this thread. As, lack of respect for one another regardless of the role they play in game can be seen at the root of much of the animosity floating around as of late and hence resulting in the subsequent breakdown of communication My comments are diplomatic in nature. Each group has their perspective and it is easy to see them all. As for pms that is not going to happen. I am not ashamed of what I say, nor am I unwilling to defend my position in a respectful debate. I can and do know how to disagree well. Disagree with what I say. I am very much ok with that. No what I say will always be said in the light of day. When I say my words are not hostile , truly that is what I mean. It is unfortunate inflection and tone of voice do not translate well in the written form. I am of the opinion that the points expressed in my posts are relevant you are of the opinion they are not. This is what any forum is for the expression and debate of opinions. I agree to disagree and I will fight to the death your right to say it.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 12:58:30 am: If this thread doesn't improve, I am simply locking it. I don't care what kind of impression this will give, and I don't care how you choose to interpret it. I am tired of comments like Suno's and I am tired of hearing about Eid. What was done is done.

The reason I am being so hostile in my posts right now is because I have seen just how hard developers work on this game and I am sick and tired of being insulted for what we all do for you. The more stupid complaints we get, the less nice we want to be. Karyuu just hit her limit, and you're going to have to deal with it. So if you have something constructive to say right now, please say it, otherwise I will remove you from the thread.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:01:01 am: Can I at least know a little about this new update going on?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Garile on February 07, 2007, 01:02:16 am: Communication.

Why is it a problem when someone reports a bug or asks something the nice way? Not saying it always gets ignored, but I rarely see a dev responding in the forums to a normal thread.

Why then respond to someone like Suno if he is acting the way he is? It only makes the devteam look bad in my eyes if the only thing the most devs posting here do is ridiculing the one or two persons who are acting that way. If it really bugs you delete his posts. Don't just ignore the good people.

@Suno: Eid deserved the ban. I said this before I knew it was Eid who did this and why, and I am saying this after. Killing other peoples fun is the worst thing you can do in my eyes with a game like this and that is what he has done. You yourself don't feel he ruined a part of the game? Good for you. Fact is many other don't feel that way and fact is he blatantly ignored the rules. You can't just not punish someone who knew what he did was wrong becuase he claims to have good motives and in this case many other options were open to him so it wasn't like he had no choice.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:04:10 am: The people knew there was going to be a wipe, he brought it sooner. Now they hate him for it? We're testers, not players, we find these exploits and report them. The community is still growing, and this bug pretty much corrupted them, and as many people have said, they've reported it long before this time, and nothing had happened. Eid finally brought it to their attention that this needed to be fixed. Are they mad because they can't dupe items anymore?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: miadon on February 07, 2007, 01:06:17 am: thats like saying some corrupt member of govenment should go free for finding loop holes in the law. :/
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Garile on February 07, 2007, 01:19:36 am: OK Suno lets see. Did Eid have no other choice? Was he unable to talk with GMs? ingame? I know he is online about the same time I am and lately most of the time there is atleast one GM online. Specially Caarie has helped me several times already by answering me questions about broken quests and changing my last name in the last two months. PMs on the forums aren't unknown to him either so thats a way to communicate with several GMs that are online in different timezones.

If he was worried the bug was underestimated it would have been simple to form a group with some of the friends who knew about the bug already and tottally fill up their inventory, but instead of dropping it simply ask a GM to have a look ingame or make a post on the forums about it. Dont't you think something like that would have gotten attention? Posting you have a whole inventory full of silverweavess through a bug and even maxed your tria?

All I heared him say he did was send a report to a GM once. Now I agree that should be enough but that in no way exuses his actions. Those wouldn't have been exusable if he had done a whole lot more then that before chosing to break the rules. Specially seeing the devs may have a very good reason why it couldn't have been fixed yet.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:22:37 am: "Send a report to a gm" was bluntly your entire post. This thread's been filled with people saying they'd reported the bug to gm's, and I'm sure there have been forum posts, a lot of them. You can't say no one reported this, and I heard it's been going on since december? And how would filling their invintory get anyone's attention? A lot of people have done that, that's why it's been such an issue, but it was only addressed after dropping the items.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 01:28:18 am: There have been 0 forum posts, and I have been told about this bug only once.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:29:28 am: I've seen at least 4 threads about the community being ruined, and other things all relating back to this bug. And look at all the posts throughout this thread, a lot of people who have replied have said they told a GM about this problem.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 01:29:44 am: Quote from: Suno_Regin
Now here comes the part where everyone calls me an ass****, but I really don't care, you can say it all you want. I'm going back to what I first said, all of this crap is going to lead to the game dying, because the community does nothing but exploit this crap.

You've been saying that for the past two years. Yet, here the game is, stronger than ever and with more players even. Besides you don't give the community any credit. All we do is exploit crap? That statment is crap. You ever hear of something called role-play? There are members in this community who do nothing but and couldn't give a rats ass about exploits. Come on Suno! You of all people should kow that.

@Gwinn Ravenn: Your telling me your not argumentative in you post then I can accept that. It did appear though like you were riding in on a white horse to save Suno, when more often than not his opinions have insulted people all over the forums. He is only getting the respect he has given the team. His opinions would be taken more seriously if he gave them in a more respectful manner. It isn't just this thread I speak of. I have nothing else to really add to your post or to discuss with you but I hope you understand what I am saying.

Edit; I also want to add I agree with Karyuu and her post. Don't you players understand that the Dev team is getting tired of your insults complaints. How many times to you think they are going to take it before they decide they have had enough and snap back. If I wouldn't know any better the community treats the devs like they are not human and should have super powers. Gesh, how horrible of those devs to not be on the ball when the players snap their fingers and say go. ::)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: miadon on February 07, 2007, 01:33:55 am: This topic seems to be doing nothing more that distract devs from fixing bugs\working on other things, which is very ironic.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Garile on February 07, 2007, 01:34:23 am: Quote from: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:22:37 am
This thread's been filled with people saying they'd reported the bug to gm's,

OK now you are simply twisting the truth. People have looked at the bugtracker and commented that indeed it was mentioned there, but it was found after a lot of search and it was not reported there several times. Also I can't recall forumposts before Eids actions. The only posts I saw about ruining the community were after and ABOUT Eids actions.

And if some people have send a PM aswell would that matter? If Eid didn't know that when he did what he did that can't be a reason now can it? That is hindsight argumentation at best.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 01:36:54 am: Several of us on the team have already admit that we should have been more on top of things - but don't anybody even dare to say that the players who knew about this bug did absolutely everything they could to make sure it gets attention, before Eid did his little stunt. We're a group of 10-15 people with tons to do - it's very easy to lose track of things, and we are looking into ways of making sure this does not happen again. However, Suno, do not under any circumstance play the "this was done because we did all we could beforehand" card.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:39:20 am: I'm not using the word "we." I've only heard about this from forum posts. Now, I'm going to go look at a few posts and link them back here, before anyone starts up again with the "this is the only post about this issue" crap.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 01:40:05 am: I'm talking about threads reporting this bug before it was "let loose Eid-style on the world." Find me one :)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:43:23 am: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27406.0
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27385.0 (relating more toward the wipe instead of Eid, but Eid isn't the only topic of discussion)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27383.0
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27417.0 (note Karyuu's reply, there are more to be found.)

These were just from general discussion, relating to both the wipe and Eid. Go read some of the replies to this thread too. I've read at least 3 posts where people have said they've reported this to GM's, one even said he taught the GM how to do it him/her self. I'm going to keep looking for more.

And Karyuu, I'll find it. :P
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 01:45:52 am: Quote from: Suno_Regin
This thread's been filled with people saying they'd reported the bug to gm's,

For the record this bug was NEVER reported to me in game or on the forums. Last week I was around planeshift quite abit, just before Eid's banning. Then I had internet problems. Where were all these reports and concerns about this bug? ..... or was everyone to busy filling up their pockets with trias/items and then when the wipe came got mad and needed something to crab about?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 01:47:29 am: Suno: That GM was me, and those threads have nothing to do with what you said - that there have been forum posts "reporting" this bug. You're not going to find any because there were none. Take my word for it, I live around here ;)

Gwinn: We are human beings. We are not machines, nor are we paid to smile all the time. We do break down after repeated stress, and this is definitely one such episode. To expect us to interact with players and yet at the same time maintain a 100% peace is very unrealistic.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 07, 2007, 01:47:39 am: No, not at all. I do get what you are saying. I also realize his behavior has caused more aggravation to an issue than good. But riding in on a white horse. NO. ;) Simply one player attempting to defuse hostility. This thread began with a very productive discussion. That soon degraded into personal attack.
My comments have not defended any one particular viewpoint, other than what I can identify as the one common thread in all of them. Each side feel they are shown disrespect by the other. I am however of the opinion that the PS staff is held to higher standards when addressing any topic, as is often the case with anyone in an official position.
I have not expressed what I do and do not agree with regarding anyones position, nor do I intend to. Except for this.

Suno, If Eid can accept the fact that he was banned then so should you. My character was Hosed In a big way when he was banned. regardless of how I feel of what happened. IT happened. The facts are out there now, in all their ugliness. Those who are in a position to make changes must be given the opportunities to do so. So I think perhapps at this point it is time to observe, the time to act has come and gone.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Garile on February 07, 2007, 01:49:05 am: after, after, after, after the act. Eid had no way of knowing of any of those as far as you know. And even if he did it's still no exuse. Although I am not saying any of them are lying the bugtracker is objective proof of how many times it was reported there. Also the several mentions seems to in many threads be the same one person.

It also doesn't mention, exept for one, when they mentioned it. Devs aren't magicians and fixing something takes time. Actually asking a dev why it's taking so much time before going Rambo on us isn't to much to ask.

*edit*
If I'm not mistaken this is the same "reporting" that Eid already mentioned. And again after the events. Find one that was actually posted before hand.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:51:04 am: Quote from: Roahn on February 06, 2007, 09:27:55 pm
It sounds to me like people are suggesting that the devs are lazy for not fixing bugs. I don't think this is the case. Let me clarify how I feel, and I suspect many others feel the same way.

Eid's actions were against the rules of Planeshift, but he did it for the purpose of pressuring the devs to fix the duplication bug. I personally reported the bug in early December, demonstrating to a GM in-game exactly how to duplicate practically any item. The GM followed my simple instructions, and was able to duplicate items, and saw how amazingly simple it was. We both agreed that, since it was so simple a process, many others would soon discover the bug by accident just as I did, and then the PS economy would be destroyed. Our predictions proved true, as over the next few weeks, I noticed more and more characters suddenly becoming overnight millionaires. The economy of PS was destroyed weeks ago.

During these two months, the bug was not fixed... but several models of helmets were added. The light glyph was added, though it isn't usable without using an exploit to raise Crystal Way. Vortex glyph was added, along with a flashy but useless spell. Mind glyph was added, with no apparent spell. More glyphs were added. Then more monsters were added to the already packed arena!

We were watching more and more features being added to PS instead of this horrible bug getting fixed. It was obvious that the devs were not lazy, but rather focusing on adding things more than fixing things.

24 hours after Eid's escapade, the duplication bug was fixed. A few hours after that, the mini-wipe got rid of most of the ill-gotten gains from the bug. Now, I see more people mining again, and looting rogues and gladiators again. Things seem to finally be back to normal, and the economy back on track. Thank you, Eid, for making it clear to the GMs and devs how serious this bug was, and thank you devs for fixing the bug and doing the wipe.

-Roahn

Posting as I find them. Garile, how many reports in bugtracker were there? And according to the person I quoted, why didn't that GM report the bug to a dev and have it fixed right away? December, remember.

Also, needless to say, Eid reported this bug too. That makes two, looking for more. I'm just going by quotes of people saying they did, and eventually one that may have been posted before-hand. If you want to whine at someone, whine at the people claiming they made these reports. I'm not a GM, I don't know what they did or did not do to fix these things, all I go by is quotes.

[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 01:54:31 am: Can you at least comment on what you are trying to accomplish with the quotes?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 01:59:12 am: Ok, you tell me to find one quote about this bug being reported before-hand. Why are you now asking me what my purpose is? You should know already. They may not be specifically forum posts, but I have run across a few posts of people mentioning reporting this bug before-hand. Talk to them, not to me.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 02:02:23 am: I told you to find reports about this bug on the forum, not quotes of it being reported beforehand. Just so we're clear.

I am giving this thread one last chance, and I am very serious. Either it gets productive and constructive, or it gets to wave bye-bye.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Garile on February 07, 2007, 02:03:43 am: Quote
the proper channels to get this issue resolved were taken, and ignored

Doesn't mention he did it. As I read his posts I believe he talking about Roahns report in the first place.

Quote from: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 01:47:29 am
Suno: That GM was me, and those threads have nothing to do with what you said - that there have been forum posts "reporting" this bug. You're not going to find any because there were none. Take my word for it, I live around here ;)

There is no dispute it was reported that one time.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 07, 2007, 02:04:11 am: reposting the following

Suno, If Eid can accept the fact that he was banned then so should you. My character was Hosed In a big way when he was banned. regardless of how I feel of what happened. IT happened. The facts are out there now, in all their ugliness. Those who are in a position to make changes must be given the opportunities to do so. So I think perhapps at this point it is time to observe, the time to act has come and gone.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Volund on February 07, 2007, 02:08:13 am: YOU GO GIRL!!!! WOOOOO lmao
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 02:13:57 am: Quote from: Gwinn Ravenn
Those who are in a position to make changes must be given the opportunities to do so.

Now that is exactly the kind of attitude I think the dev's would appreciate to see from others. Thanks Gwinn for your imput. Also thank you for taking my post as was, I appreciate it. I understand your standing now. :)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: acraig on February 07, 2007, 02:15:21 am: I guess we can all feel good about the fact that the project raises emotions to such a high level. We must be doing something right in that case. It's not that big a deal really, there was a problem, we didn't know how serious it really was, somebody decided to show us. Lessons learned all around. Could we have done a better job at fixing it? Yes. Could the method by which the point was made be done better? Yes. Everything else is just pointless bickering about who reported what to who and why. If people want to harp on it, go ahead on your blogs or whatever you want.

We have taken some steps to help reduce the chances of stuff like this happening again. If this is the worst exploit so far I consider us doing pretty good.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 02:19:58 am: Good. :)

What's coming in the update?
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 02:21:46 am: Stuff :] Check the CVS history (http://planeshift.cvs.sourceforge.net/planeshift/planeshift/docs/history.txt?view=markup) for public code changes, and create a separate thread if you're interested in continuing this tangent. (Not recommended.)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 07, 2007, 02:22:46 am: Not planning to, since I know the devs are gonna pick up on bug fixes. :P
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 07, 2007, 02:25:11 am: of course. *huggs all around*
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Garile on February 07, 2007, 02:27:42 am: *jumps in with the hugging*

Well glad to see things are well :)

And I am sure the emotions run high becuase we all care for PS :)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: eldoth_terevan on February 07, 2007, 02:36:10 am: The fact that we all care so much is a tribute to this project. It's a great project!
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 07, 2007, 03:00:09 am: yes, If people didn't care so much, I am not sure the game would be worth playing.

BTW no one expects the dev. team to take undue ridicule by all means stand up and say what needs to be said. I nearly lost my temper a few times. Everyone popps. I think I lost a few brain cells just reading these threads *mourns her loss* No one is perfect , nor is anyone expected to be. But when we pop and do the wrong thing maybe a word to say, hey I messed up would do wonders. Even if you Mean every word you say when you spitting mad. you can still say hey sorry I lost it. I think Kayruu your the only one I have seen do just that. :) you lost your temper a few times, but you also admitted that you did. *mourns the loss of any brain cells you may have lost due to frustration*

Acreig very commendable statement. very appreciated by all, even those who would never admit it.

*ok more hugging*
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Dales Lierin on February 07, 2007, 03:03:34 am: When i began reading this post, i never expected it to end the way it has. Acraig, you made an extremely good point (and without your usual wonderful sense of humor, even). People really do get emotional about this project from all standpoints. Some of my best friends are players/testers.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Akaye on February 07, 2007, 03:08:18 am: Well I don't know about me losing my temper but I can admit to being annoyed. Guess I wasn't envolved from the begining to have it effect me the way it did others. Anyway I am so very pleased with this thread ending ithis way. I don't think any heated thread in these forums has actually accomplished this type of ending. YAAAAAAAAY HUGS! :lol:
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: acraig on February 07, 2007, 03:10:04 am: Yeah, I'm off to the Middle East now. I hear they have some issues over there that I can solve with my awesomesauce forum postings.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Dales Lierin on February 07, 2007, 03:13:17 am: I KNEW the sense of humor was still there. LOVE IT. good luck with the middle east. ;)
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: lordraleigh on February 07, 2007, 03:49:07 am: Quote from: acraig on February 07, 2007, 03:10:04 am
Yeah, I'm off to the Middle East now. I hear they have some issues over there that I can solve with my awesomesauce forum postings.

*Leftist Libertarian Ranting mode on

No War for Oil!

Quote
General, man is very useful.
He can fly and he can kill.
But he has one defect:
He can think.

*Cheap Sarcasm mode on

No Religious Prejudice against Islam!

Quote
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

Quote
In Soviet Union, the State is persecuted by you!

*Modes disabled*

Good luck in the Middle East Acraig! You'll really gonna need it!

Now I wonder how could you solve the conflict of these guys (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hezbollah.jpg) against these guys (http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/08/16/israel-topper.jpg) with your "awesomesauce forum postings". Of course in the Middle East the meaning of "Flame War" becomes unpleasantly too literal. Although they are common users of RPGs (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/RPG) as well, so I guess you will have at least something in common with them to talk about while attempting to settle the conflict.

Random ~~useless cheap phrase~~ advice from Captain Obvious:

Quote
Wipe the bugs first when you make a wipe, because if there are bugs crawling around, whatever you intended to wipe still needs to be wiped.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: acraig on February 07, 2007, 03:52:14 am: Dude, you're harshing my buzz.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Gwinn Ravenn on February 07, 2007, 04:02:06 am: what a great ending.. quick lock it before it all goes horrably wrong. :P j/k
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: eldoth_terevan on February 07, 2007, 04:07:31 am: Yes now!
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Garon on February 07, 2007, 04:40:06 am: Quote from: acraig on February 07, 2007, 03:10:04 am
Yeah, I'm off to the Middle East now. I hear they have some issues over there that I can solve with my awesomesauce forum postings.

Noooooo!!! We can't let you leave, that'd give those undeserving people you instead of us, and that'd be a crime. Besides, we need you as a human shield in case they decide to stop their infighting and start actually fighting those who could threaten their right to infighting without some intervention.

---

Other then that, Hugs all around, etc., and hopefully this whole situation won't be repeated, since everybody could have handled this better (In ways that have been outlined by many people already, so I won't repeat things again :P).
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: neko kyouran on February 07, 2007, 04:56:54 am: Yay Hugs! And to celebrate, a video. When I was younger, I made these things all the time. Adobe Premier 6.0 :love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lzxQHYk_74
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: ramlambmoo on February 07, 2007, 05:08:14 am: I'd like to make a few points here.

Firstly the development team is made up of volunteers. I know this gets mentioned every five seconds, but it would do well for certain people to actually think about this before they go on criticizing. When talking about the programming team, as I understand is made up of around (on average) 6 people working part time. All these people are over the age of 18; they all have a very real and important real life. In between this real life they try to squeeze in some time to development one of the most ambitious types of software there is. That means there are 6 people who get up in the morning, go to work from 9-5, come home, play with the kids, cook dinner, sort out their life, and then maybe sit down for a few hours and try and get some work done. Developing software isn't just like "Oh, I might sit down and fix planeshift for a few hours!", like you do when you'd like to simply play in game. You need to sit down, shift through bug reports, try and pinpoint a problem (which in itself can take hours), and then open up the code and start working at trying to figure out why its a problem. It's easy to say "Items can be duplicated", "There are graphics problems", "<insert bug here>" but its another thing entirely to devote both the time and mental resources to fixing the damn thing. You have a dev team of around six part time people trying to fix problems in a codebase of over 100,000 lines, any of which could be potentially a problem.

So now, imagine you're a developer. You have a bad day at the office, you come home, kids need attention, you cook dinner and finally sit down to do some work and you read a post calling you and the team "lazy"?? I mean, what the f***? The dev team is fully aware of lots of bugs. If they had the time to fix them all, they would. But it's called prioritizing. Not everything can be fixed here and now. Patience. For all you know, the bug you thought was oh so important and needs to be fixed now, might have been scheduled to be fixed in 2 week time during a rewrite of the inventory system. But no, you couldn't wait until then, you want it fixed now, so now the devs with their precious little free time have to stop whatever else they were working to improve in this game, and fix the bug to stop the game collapsing. Instead of leaving it for a bit and doing things efficiently so to get the most of their time and get the most bugs fixed and features implemented, they had to change their schedule because they couldn't trust the very community members who purport to be 'helping' making things better to use common sense and leave the bugs alone. It is shear arrogance to assume that you know a bug is more important than another one, over what the development team thinks. Do you think that abusing that bug and forcing it to be fixed actually advanced development in any way?? Most likely, the developers had to postpone something else to work on it. Most likely there are features and other bug fixes that will be delayed because of the time it took to clean up the mess you made.

All you succeeded in doing was mess up the developers schedule, and add work for them do in the form of database fixes, numerous forum replies and complaints on irc. You've delayed the progression of this game, and for that you don't deserve to be a part of the community you claim you're helping.
Title: Re: Resposibility and Honesty
Post by: Karyuu on February 07, 2007, 05:24:45 am: Brilliance :) I believe this debate is now over. Enjoy PlaneShift at your own risk.