Resposibility and Honesty

[zanzibar]

Way to take stuff out of context.  Perhaps you'd like to post the hours before hand of the tedious exchange where an IRC member had some personal vendetta he was trying to score points with, and using the IRC channel we set up to do so.  People like to assume the worst about us it seems.

Andrew, with reactions like that, I'm afraid you're making it easier for people to assume the worst about you.

You're misrepresenting what happened on IRC that day.  The exchange did not last for "hours" - it was closer to 10 minutes.  The conflict was also more complicated than a "personal vendetta" or "trying to score points".  Getting kicked from the chat without warning for having the moniker "Eid is cool"?   It might have been appropriate, but surely you can understand why someone might react negatively to that - especially if they had bad experiences previously with the one who kicked them.

[acraig]

Believe what you want. 

And for what it's worth I think Xylaal raised some good issues in his opening post until the thread got bogged down to the point of mud slinging.

[Nikodemus]

People like to assume the worst about us it seems.   

nah, one just can get depresed a bit after what was said there. Heck, Xylaal did not create this topic to build such a feeling, but something opposite. To invent a way of even better communication, so that even less people will think devs are doing something wrong. They are wrong and PS is the proof, even if it doesn't shine like the products at the bookshelves, which are supposed to be good.
We are quite lucky we have such a community, where we can joke and talk about things, which somewhere else would be inappropriate. I'm happy that you can feel that a dev will take your ideas seriously and you can talk about it like with a normal person. Of course nothing is perfect, Xylaal wouldn't make a post othrwise.
That's what counts, not times when someone is in bad mood and say things, which normally wouldn't see light.
I'm also happy Acraig owns the forums \o/ hehe

[Roahn]

It sounds to me like people are suggesting that the devs are lazy for not fixing bugs. I don't think this is the case. Let me clarify how I feel, and I suspect many others feel the same way.

Eid's actions were against the rules of Planeshift, but he did it for the purpose of pressuring the devs to fix the duplication bug. I personally reported the bug in early December, demonstrating to a GM in-game exactly how to duplicate practically any item. The GM followed my simple instructions, and was able to duplicate items, and saw how amazingly simple it was. We both agreed that, since it was so simple a process, many others would soon discover the bug by accident just as I did, and then the PS economy would be destroyed. Our predictions proved true, as over the next few weeks, I noticed more and more characters suddenly becoming overnight millionaires. The economy of PS was destroyed weeks ago.

During these two months, the bug was not fixed... but several models of helmets were added. The light glyph was added, though it isn't usable without using an exploit to raise Crystal Way. Vortex glyph was added, along with a flashy but useless spell. Mind glyph was added, with no apparent spell. More glyphs were added. Then more monsters were added to the already packed arena!

We were watching more and more features being added to PS instead of this horrible bug getting fixed. It was obvious that the devs were not lazy, but rather focusing on adding things more than fixing things.

24 hours after Eid's escapade, the duplication bug was fixed. A few hours after that, the mini-wipe got rid of most of the ill-gotten gains from the bug. Now, I see more people mining again, and looting rogues and gladiators again. Things seem to finally be back to normal, and the economy back on track. Thank you, Eid, for making it clear to the GMs and devs how serious this bug was, and thank you devs for fixing the bug and doing the wipe.

-Roahn

[eldoth_terevan]

This game is like a rainbow dragon. Each person loves different colors or different details, but nothing is the same after you have seen it living and breathing before you in all of its glory. I think that one thing that everybody who was involved in this situation shares is a love of this game. I think that is a very good thing. Eid is part of the community, even more now that he is gone. I think the discussion here is good, and I am happy that this issue has been put to bed, it was making people miserable in game for a while. Now we can get back to important things, such as the new tr*cough*rs in br*cough*oors, new other stuff, and the healing of the economy and community. @acraig: Umm, that is the lady Xylaal, my friend...

[Gwinn Ravenn]

my comments as fallows where not mean as insult, nor as mud slinging.

I will repost here in the hope that my point can be understood in context.

"Acreg , Please. I do understand the level of frustration you and the rest of the team face. Finding that one repeating incorrect line of code in a sea of code is not an easy thing. Fixing code that has already been written is not easy. I do not think the dev. team is lazy. There is however, reality and then there is perception. That particular type of reaction dose not help things. If there is the perception the dev. teams will laugh people off the player base will react in kind. It is understandable that the team would take offense at the implication/accusation of Lazy. But that is not what your response was directed to.
The commenter was belittled when they where expressing a desire to help even though they did not have the means. That leaves the readers of the thread with the perception that the offense was taken at the idea someone wanted to help, and not what actually offended you. Of course you would take offense at the implication of being called lazy. most of the dev team works a full day, comes home only to work X amount of hours on the game. However, in the same way the dev. team has earned the respect of many, for the many hours of work and creativity they also have lost respect due to commentary that is unbecoming to people with your caliber."

whenever someone from the Dev. team speaks in their Dev. persona. It is perceived as the official voice of planeshift. Commentary that is less than respectful by the staff generates ill will in general. People will be less likely to report problems. Less likely to cooperate with the Dev team, and More likely to abuse the game. Even when the frustration behind such commentary is justified. I am not casting judgments, nor am I placing blame. It is simply an observation. I will also point out, that while the words of the PS staff weigh more heavily than those of others; Everyone has the responsibility to speak respectfully. Respect for each other is in short supply. It is important we remember : you can disagree with a point but to attack an individual because you are in disagreement is uncalled for. We are intelligent and civilized people.

[neko kyouran]

Here, here!

Respect is key.  Suno, please learn some, k?  Thanks.

As for everyone else, thanks for trying to stay constructive with your critism.  It's makes things much better if we all stay on that side of the fense.

As for the issues about communication that was brought up.....yep, I've seen that too.  But to a certain degree, I've just grown to accept some of it, just becuase of what this project is, and how it is going about.  Nature of the beast, so to say.

But, there are times where, if I truely feel it to be urgent, I will poke and prod until I hear a deffinate answer from someone one way or the another on the issue.  And even then I may still poke and prod.

And that's really what everyone should do.  Now, I'm not saying bother every dev you see every single moment, as that will most likely just scare them away.  They scare easy, these dev creatures.  One has to be a little quiet to observe them in their natural habit, elsethey go into hiding. *ends nature show reference for humor*

But if you report a bug, and don't hear back after a dev says they'll look into it, or have a bug to report, simply follow up on it every couple of weeks with someone.  It doesn't even have to be the same person. Send me a PM and I'll try to get it to the right person and get you a response. 

This is a two way street here, and we all have to work together in order to improve things.

And at the base of that, is respect for one another.

[dfryer]

During these two months, the bug was not fixed... but several models of helmets were added. The light glyph was added, though it isn't usable without using an exploit to raise Crystal Way. Vortex glyph was added, along with a flashy but useless spell. Mind glyph was added, with no apparent spell. More glyphs were added. Then more monsters were added to the already packed arena!

The people able to debug the item duping problem are almost completely disjoint from the people involved in adding glyphs, helmets, effects, spells and monsters - none of the latter involves new code!  And of those few people able to debug the problem, some may have been busy, some may have had a look at it and made no progress, and some may have considered it a lower priority since we know that there have been exploits and problems in the past.  It's very frustrating when someone "forces" an issue in the name of the greater good, because while it does fix one particular problem *right now*, it causes ripples of trouble through the entire community & development team.

I know that it's frustrating to be playing a game that sometimes just "doesn't work" in some way or another, and that it's frustrating that the developers aren't often in-game getting a feel for the current dynamics of gameplay, bugs and all.  Is it so terrible that some of us have priorities that aren't centered around how much fun people are having *right now*?  I think that the "seriousness" and widespread nature of this bug could have been demonstrated without flagrant violation of the game rules.  If convincing one GM isn't enough, convince two, or snag the ear of a passing dev in #planeshift or #planeshift-build.  Not all of us are master bug-fixers, so it takes some momentum to get the attention of the few that we have.  Just.. please don't gain that momentum at the expense of everyone else.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I did not say he was like hitler

someone said he thought he did the right thing

I said:

so did hitler

to invoke

Godwin's Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

hoping the argument would die.

if someone showed a gm and it did not work to fix the problem then come to me or another dev.

this argument is dead.

[Siteri Kidachi]

By the way, Xillix... If you read that article carefully, it says that if you intentionally mention Hitler just to end discussion, it doesn't count.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

sure the i will add Xillix's law whereby if I invoke the name of hitler . . .

btw it also says "There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress."

So i lose

woot

game over.

whatever you want me arguing or writing for you?

[Esserfin]

24 hours after Eid's escapade, the duplication bug was fixed. A few hours after that, the mini-wipe got rid of most of the ill-gotten gains from the bug. Now, I see more people mining again, and looting rogues and gladiators again. Things seem to finally be back to normal, and the economy back on track.

[i'm not complaining, i don't want to flame, etc....]

If we have to assume that to see so many newcomers killing gladiators with one hit of their new deserved sw weapons....than it's all back to normal. And, maybe, most of them will repair them too really fast when the quality will drop...

[propositive part]

As i said in another post if we want to change the economy seriously we need to change the prices of weapons and ores around. A strange cap will not fix it.
A gladiator that most of the players can kill drops weapons up to 2000 or so trias....an ulber heart is 560 trias.

[zanzibar]

Worry about the economy once people are able to craft iron weapons.  Until then, we're living in the moment.

[Esserfin]

Worry about the economy once people are able to craft iron weapons.  Until then, we're living in the moment.

A really long moment afaicr
To craft Iron weapons will not fix the problem ...there will be always people killing an easy gradiator for a loot from 300 to 2000 or so trias. Forgot to mention (again) that easy gradiators/rogues are part of the problem too.
 

[Suno_Regin]

I'm not very knowledged with computers, but if I was, I wouldn't let that go to waste, and I would actually fix these things as I see them.

I'm not very knowledged about medicine but I would actually make paralyzed people walk again.  I mean how lazy are they?  Both the doctors for not fixing them and those lazy paralyzed people.  Hell, their chair has wheels! How lazy is that? And some of them even stay in bed all day.  Don't get me started on people in comas

I'm not very knowledged about science but I would actually develop warp drive.  Our scientists today are so lazy, they've only got to the freaking Moon!  Common people, focus, we should be heading to Vega by now.  They are so lazy by focusing on things like fuel efficient cars and alternate power supplies.   Wow those guys have their heads up their asses or what?

3 pages already, wow...I don't feel like reading the other 2, so I'm just reading back on the first page. You're right, doctors are lazy. =P

The way I see it, a cure for cancer could exist already, but if they don't make it, they get more money from people paying for minor treatment. Sure, this might not be the best example of whats going on here, but I think the updates move slowly along because if there's just enough of a period between updates for people to slightly get bored, then there comes a new...groffletoe, thing to keep them amused for a few more days. =P

...Ok, I'm wrong there. Might not be the best example, but everything that's stalled has a reason similar to this. Like, say you're waiting for something to come out in stores. You see it advertised so much, you're obsessed over it but can't get it. You wait a long time...finally it comes. Everyone was waiting so long, they'd pay as much money as they could for it once it comes. The company knows that by waiting long, they make more money, not only from people offering top dollar, but from all the little snipbits they sell to people to hold them off.

Now the reason why I'm giving these examples. PlaneShift does a similar thing. We have long times before each major update, so to hold us off, we get small things, like groffletoe or pets, and crafting (which isn't really a small thing, but compared to how much more you have planned to go...yeah), to hold us off and keep game activity going until they decide to release the update and attract more people to the game. Sure, you're not making any money, but it's all about the game's popularity, right? =P

I'm not really accusing anyone of being greedy or anything, but like I said before, all of the stalling these kinds of things do have a reason SIMILAR, to what I've mentioned. The longer you wait, the better things turn out for the creator of this "product" in the end. If we ignored all the small things and tackled the larger ones, like the bug Eid got banned for, and actually stopped banning people for bugs that could be fixed if you put a little time into it, this game would probably be near finished by now, and this thread wouldn't even exist.

When you put little bits of time into things every week or so, larger things begin to develope, that we players, or "testers" come across, since we put more time into finding these things. But because the developers keep putting it off, the situation grows worse. The reason why this was finally addressed because Eid almost completely overturned the community by what he did, just to finally get your attention.

I'm not very knowledged about crime but I would stop all the murderers.  Cops today now are so focused on things like stolen property and giving me a speeding ticket when I go 100 in a school zone.  Lazy pigs, they can't be bothered to do the hard work and stop people robbing banks.  I'd actually go to murderers and tell  them "Hey! Stop murdering people" and they would and that would show them.

I'm not a person to break down posts, but I wanted to address this specifically. Cops are actually more busy arresting people who DON'T hurt someone, than stopping murderers. A few personal things happened, which got "someone" put in jail for 6 monthes, which was a really small thing. Yet, someone kills someone or attempts a murder, and get put in for 2 monthes. If you don't believe me, watch more cop shows or something. Especially when they arrest someone who's going over the speed limit a little bit, and actually spike his tires and get 6 people to yank him out the window. I'd rather you'd not used that example, acraig. Oh, and the "someone" wasn't me, but I don't really want to tell you who it was.

(Oh, and I don't really go online anymore, since I get crashed every few seconds. Whoever said I'm complaining about the wipe, get a clue.)