PlaneShift

Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 05:45:02 am

Title: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 05:45:02 am
UPDATED:

Hello, and welcome to The Crooks Official Thread

A new guild based on the very thing the good, hard-working people of Hydlaa fears. No, we are not really about spreading terror and chaos in the Hydlaa community, on the contrary, we work very secretively without being noticed. Our goal is to control all of Hydlaa's economy at any costs (buying people off, or even using force if needed). Our people will be everywhere, have hands in every aspect of people's lives, way up to the highest positions in Hydlaa's Government, we will always have the upper hand in everything!

The guild is currently accepting all races.


The Guild Ranks will be as follows: (in ascending order)

An Apprentice - most likely a newbie, so he/she will not have to take orders from anyone, instead he/she will be roaming around Hydlaa looking for good chances to rank up.

A Lock Picker - Is somewhat trained, and would still take no orders from anyone, but is given the chance to either become a Bully or a Burglar, both requires certain skills that will be discussed later.

A Burglar - Comes naturally after being a lock picker, he's a more experienced member of the guild and will start to take direct commands from Gang Leaders and Members.

A Bully - Should be good at fighting to a certain extent. He takes orders directly from Gang Leaders.

A Gang Member - Is someone who is experienced enough to become a Gang Leader assistant they take orders from Gang Leaders and are privileged in the sort of tasks they are asked to do. Should be well experienced.

A Gang Leader -  He does the Politicians dirty work, and he has a direct authority on all the former ranks. also, when the guild becomes big enough, every Gang Leader will get to choose a number of followers that will be considered his OWN gang (no other Gang Leader will have any kind of authority on them) - and every gang will has its own name. He also nominates Gang Members for gangs leadership.

A Politician - Our representatives in the government, they buy people's votes, bribe local guards, and send threats to opposing parties - although they work separately, they will usually take orders directly from me.

       

(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6786/thecrooksee2.png)
               
Assistant - This is an extremely sensitive position, that will be chosen carefully over time. He/she gets to take the guild leader's place when he's not available and has same authorities as him.

The Evil Munkii - Well, that's ME, my identity shall remain secret (for future generations :o)


What do you get when you apply:
- First and foremost, you get to be in a good guild with great chances of success.
- Fun people that you will ultimately enjoy role playing with.
- You can use any of the banners below or upcoming ones as a forum signature or in your personal blog (feel free to manipulate or make your own)
- First 4 ranks will get a specially made signature with their name and rank on.
- Newbies will be provided with tools and tips to make their PlaneShift experience as smooth and complications-free as possible. (within and under the rules & conditions of PlaneShift, no cheating!)
- We also encourage any sort of creativity - we would always be open for your suggestions and thoughts at any stage of the guild's life (before or after the guild lunch).

What do you need to apply:
- You need to have an actual character in PlaneShift, apparently :)
- You need to provide us with your in-game name (if you're going to apply from the forums)
- You need to follow the PlaneShift (PS) Role Playing (RP) rules.
- You need to learn some PS acronyms :)
- Most importantly, You need to have some sense of humour, this announcement might sound lame (avoiding deletion), but in-game we are the funniest bunch (one hopes), role playing our guild will be the toughest part of it and we will not be able to do it without a little humour on the side. We don't want our guild to die simply because it got DULL!

As you might already know, a guild costs 200,000 trias to create now, so any donations will be greatly appreciated at the moment. As the guild leader I'm investing 100,000 trias into the guild, and I'm working my leather pants off to raise the rest as soon as possible, I'm not in a hurry however, this delay actually gives me a much needed time to set the guild's web-page and discussion board (see below for links), also to apply a respectable number of players to start with.

Artwork:

(http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1876/thecrooks1xs3.png)

(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3693/thecrooks5oz6.png)

(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/906/thecrooks2ur6.png)


Any help from members of the PS forum (whether are going to apply or not) is appreciated, if you think you can make better art-works for our guild please go ahead, we're also open for suggestions from outsiders, but can't promise anything..

For further information or suggestions, you can add your comments to this thread, or contact me at: munkiiboi@gmail.com

Our meeting place in Hydlaa will be decided with the guild lunch.



Website:  http://crooks.xordan.com  (thanks to Xordan)

Discussion Board: http://crooks.informe.com



The guild is apply to change, at any time, so keep visiting this thread - thanks for all suggestions by good members of the board

Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 17, 2007, 08:11:07 am
I don't see any difference between this post and the previous one.  How is it "updated" if both guild descriptions are identical?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 08:17:48 am
I don't see any difference between this post and the previous one.  How is it "updated" if both guild descriptions are identical?

i couldn't get the other one deleted, so neko locked it instead, this one has became the official one  :whistling:
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Sangwa on February 17, 2007, 02:52:19 pm
It actually sounds worst.

You've missed the point about lock pickers. Lock pickers pick locks. So members in that rank should pick locks. They should break into people's home or open chests and things for the guild.

The Evil Munkii? You're just testing us now, aren't you?

And didn't you hear what we said about representatives in the government? Okay. Here it goes: these must be guild leaders of craft guilds. I don't think any guild leader would bow his head to Evil Munkii, who can't even afford his own guild... or hide his unlawful purposes.

I'm starting to think you've got no real good chances with this project. Seems you are impervious to evolution.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: shorty13 on February 17, 2007, 03:52:19 pm
I think he has a good shot at getting it off.  I think it sounds pretty well organized.  Only problems are how are you going to invade teh government...when there really isn't a player run gov atm.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 04:02:10 pm
Sangwa, i think i know what the problem is: you are trying to compare my guild to The Dark Empire! it's not the same, i have a completely different approach to the whole guild thing, it's not intended to be as strictly serious as the Empire, some guy from the old thread said that it's my fault that i didn't make it obvious enough that the guild is about HUMOR, and before you go ahead and accuse me of  ruining the seriousness of PS role playing, i want you to know that i DO take my humor SERIOUSLY, it's not like i'm gonna run around pretending i'm a monkey climbing trees and eating bananas, it's just a more humorous approach to role playing a guild, my updated version of the guild just made this more obvious! thank you for stoping by  :flowers:
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 04:14:41 pm
So is this guild going to be in game or is it a fourm joke? Your roleplay has to be serious.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 04:28:27 pm
Parallo, it'll be in-game when it's ready, right not it's NOT, i just needed a place to lay my ideas out, if it didn't get good responses (or no responses) i'll take it as a sign that i'm doing something wrong, but you can't just stay there and tell me i'm supposed to make everybody happy, nothing good comes out of this, i mean i've got SEVERAL takes on the Empire structure, but i also know that this's just my opinion other people might find it interesting, so i know it's just not for ME, right now i'm still getting mixed messages, some people like my guild (some even haven't commented on any of my threads) and others find it retarded! i respect both opinions but non of them can tell me what i SHOULD do, it's my guild after all, if it fails i take all the blame, if it succeeds i take all credits. so what i'm trying to say is i can't balance the guild in a way that will make EVERYBODY happy, it's just not possible!
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 04:31:51 pm
The way to make everybody happy would be to make a guild that is consistant with the settings and not something thats ment to be humourous.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 04:40:21 pm
well, that's the point, i don't even see where i've went wrong with the whole game settings thing, i've read every piece of document on this site and i haven't found anything that goes against my guild's approach, and before you go ahead and give me a list that i have seen for the 90th time in here, i know what your gonna say, but i just don't SEE it! so save your breath, and try to be more supportive than critical.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: LARAGORN on February 17, 2007, 04:43:48 pm
The way to make everybody happy would be to make a guild that is consistant with the settings and not something thats ment to be humourous.

That is just silly. Heaven forbid someone wants to add a little humour into thier RP.

I dont see the point of another 'cookie cutter' guild, there are enough of them already. The Crooks are not going to try and join the almighty DE, so stop trying to make it fit into the guidelines of it. They are trying to have a little fun, just because it isnt your idea of fun, dosent make it wrong. Lighten up people.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 04:48:41 pm
A member of the government cannot occupy a rank in your guild because in order to be in that position he or she must be at the top of another guild. If you try to be humourous do you think other guilds will take you seriously? Do you think that you can control everything with titles like The Evil Munkii? People will think you are jsut a bunch of mental peasents with strange asperations.

In pointing these flaws out and taking the time to do so I am being supportive. Would you rather people just say 'Good job' and not try to help?


That is just silly. Heaven forbid someone wants to add a little humour into thier RP.

I dont see the point of another 'cookie cutter' guild, there are enough of them already. The Crooks are not going to try and join the almighty DE, so stop trying to make it fit into the guidelines of it. They are trying to have a little fun, just because it isnt your idea of fun, dosent make it wrong. Lighten up people.

Have you played that spy game? No one lives forever. These guys remind me of the evil organisation in that. If such a think existed people wouldn't take it seriously at all.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: LARAGORN on February 17, 2007, 05:02:23 pm
The Politician position may be vacant for a while :D

Quote
People will think you are jsut a bunch of mental peasents with strange asperations.

If that is the case, then great lol, I think that would be funny. "Oh no, here comes the crazy Crooks"  ;D

If I am understanding Munkii correctly, that is the point, sillyness and a laugh or two.

Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 05:14:22 pm
The way I interpreted it was that he intended to make his goals a reality.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: LARAGORN on February 17, 2007, 05:20:59 pm
I think so too, and it should be a lot of fun for those who see the lighter side of it all.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 05:25:16 pm

If I am understanding Munkii correctly, that is the point, sillyness and a laugh or two


yes you do! i didn't want to respond because i don't want to take it to the second page, thanks for clearing my idea   :flowers:

*edit*

Ah! Ironic ^

[ Please avoid making one post right after the other in the same thread. Just "Modify" your first post to add more information. --Karyuu ]
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 05:29:46 pm
Noone will veiw your guild in the way that you describe it though and you will never hold power.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 05:32:34 pm
Noone will veiw your guild in the way that you describe it though and you will never hold power.

technically, neither do YOU!
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 17, 2007, 05:34:44 pm
Noone will veiw your guild in the way that you describe it though and you will never hold power.

I guess they're the political version of the "Vespers of Laanx" jesters.

technically, neither do YOU!

Underestimating the potential of a solid group dedicated to the goal of achieving power, not wise.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 05:37:13 pm
Was that ment to be an insult? I'm simply trying to understand your purpose.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: LARAGORN on February 17, 2007, 05:38:38 pm
Think of Dr. Evil (austin powers) and The Brain (animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain), they are always trying to take over the world. Do they sicceed? Never. Failure never stops them, and people always know what their ultimate goal is. Do people take them seriously? hardly.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 05:39:45 pm
Was that ment to be an insult? I'm simply trying to understand your purpose.

no not at all, i'm just saying government system hasn't been implemented in PS yet anyway
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 05:42:38 pm
Think of Dr. Evil (austin powers) and The Brain (animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain), they are always trying to take over the world. Do they sicceed? Never. Failure never stops them, and people always know what their ultimate goal is. Do people take them seriously? hardly.

That's exactly it. All that I'm trying to point out is that an organisation like this can't just appear at the level of Dr. Evil's nor could it in this enviroment evolve to that level of actually having power. They will be laughed at IC by most.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 05:43:38 pm
Think of Dr. Evil (austin powers) and The Brain (animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain), they are always trying to take over the world. Do they sicceed? Never. Failure never stops them, and people always know what their ultimate goal is. Do people take them seriously? hardly.

yeah, actually the Brain is one of my all time role models
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: LARAGORN on February 17, 2007, 05:45:48 pm

That's exactly it. All that I'm trying to point out is that an organisation like this can't just appear at the level of Dr. Evil's nor could it in this enviroment evolve to that level of actually having power. They will be laughed at IC by most.

What is wrong with that :) I think PS needs the inept evil mastermind and his group of bumbling flunkies.

EDIT: ok maybe not 'need' , but I do see room for it.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Under the moon on February 17, 2007, 05:47:43 pm
I hate to defend Munkii (just an expression), but I would like to point out his exact wording for 'Politician"

Quote
A Politician - Our representatives in the government, they buy people's votes, bribe local guards, and send threats to opposing parties - although they work separately, they will usually take orders directly from me.

Now, point out to me exactly where is states in there that this person -or a politician for that matter- is an actual member of the government. A politican is simply someone who strives to work within the circle of people that form the government. There are many many politicians who do not hold a seat of power at all. Please get your facts straight before you start jumping down someone's throat.

My facts:

# a leader engaged in civil administration (yes, this would have to be a member of the government)
# a person active in party politics (Nope, no actual government position here)
# a schemer who tries to gain advantage in an organization in sly or underhanded ways (Bingo! We have Munkii's kind of man)

And all you folks who talk about power, quiet yourselves before I go into a rant on how much power you all actually have, including the vaunted DE.

*edit: This game is about having fun,and contributing to the fun of others, not about gaining power. In this, it appears Munkii's goal is greater than that of the other posters in this thread, who seem bent on putting people down. It is not up to you to dictate what guilds can and can't be. If your goal is not the betterment of the roleplay mood of the game, or this thread, shut up or get out.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 05:54:44 pm
When he says in the government it usually means in the government.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 17, 2007, 05:56:56 pm
When he says in the government it usually means in the government.

Dude, please stop, you made your point!
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Under the moon on February 17, 2007, 06:00:51 pm
I am not going to mince words with a lacky. Fine, you wish it your way, I advize you, Munkii, to change the phrasing of your politician to say "Our representatives -who work within- the government..."

*edit: I would like to point out before another lacky comes in here trying to mince words that "works within* means people that work for, and in the bounds of the government. This could mean scribes, lobiests, cooks, or anyone who works directly for an actual government official.

Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 17, 2007, 06:03:25 pm
Think of Dr. Evil (austin powers) and The Brain (animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain), they are always trying to take over the world. Do they sicceed? Never. Failure never stops them, and people always know what their ultimate goal is. Do people take them seriously? hardly.

yeah, actually the Brain is one of my all time role models

AHA!

This kind of EVIL! MWAMWAMWA:

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Evilness (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Evilness)

(http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/1/17/Kefka_-_Laugh.gif)

------

@Nurahk: Make an "Austin Powers" in the Imperial Intelligence Agency to defeat them  :P
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 17, 2007, 06:15:45 pm
I am not going to mince words with a lacky.

Is that nessisary? I'm not here to spew the opinions of the Empire. These are my own. I find that quite demeaning.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 17, 2007, 08:15:35 pm
Sangwa, i think i know what the problem is: you are trying to compare my guild to The Dark Empire!
He's not comparing you to the Dark Empire.
you can't just stay there and tell me i'm supposed to make everybody happy
No ones telling you that.



I think you need to take the constructive criticism people are giving you with a more open mind.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 17, 2007, 08:35:42 pm
Evil Munkii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Evil)

What's the problem with him @zanzibar ?

Just make a GM named "Austin Powers" and beat him for not fitting with the settings!

Or

- Change its name.
- Make it very secret, and make a front organization controlled by it.
- Make the ranks have a point and change their names as well.

EDIT for @Sangwa

Do you think this is serious?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 17, 2007, 08:45:43 pm
To be honest, I don't give a crap about the name of the guild or the way its ranks are organized.  I already gave my thoughts in the other thread so I won't repeat them here.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Sangwa on February 17, 2007, 10:01:36 pm
I understand now. This guild is a joke. That explains Lock Pickers that don't pick locks and Politicians that are not politicians. I'm sorry if I've been just burdening you with my reasoning. I thought I was helping you create a smart project that could come to be interesting. A joke's fine too, I guess.


Quote
And all you folks who talk about power, quiet yourselves before I go into a rant on how much power you all actually have, including the vaunted DE.

Quote
Now, point out to me exactly where is states in there that this person -or a politician for that matter- is an actual member of the government.
Quote
A Politician - Our representatives in the government

Haha.

EDIT TO ADD: Raleigh, he's not trying to make a smart secret organization. Makes no sense to give him good advise abotu how to do that.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Quitarias on February 18, 2007, 03:08:00 pm
i think you need a litle humore here after all he isnt making an army guild with strict rules he is makiong a joly group of conmen and thives so a litle humor amongst thieves is a must so please stop trying to slaughter his idea because when you llook at it without nitpicking every detail it looks nice
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 18, 2007, 03:13:05 pm
He didn't show enough humour for a funny guild or enough seriousness for a serious guild so it's perfectly open to critisism particularly if he posts here. Can you try using punctuation in your next post? It's very hard to read.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Quitarias on February 18, 2007, 03:52:56 pm
He didn't show enough humour for a funny guild or enough seriousness for a serious guild so it's perfectly open to critisism particularly if he posts here. Can you try using punctuation in your next post? It's very hard to read.

Ill try.
Have you meet him ingame to confirm what you are saying or are you just making stuff up by the rank names ?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 18, 2007, 04:26:43 pm
Thanks.

I'm going entirely from what he has presented in his post.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Under the moon on February 18, 2007, 04:56:50 pm
I am the first to admit that 'The Crooks' is a silly guild that will not likely survive long. I am not defending it, but its right to exist. I am also defending it against the pointless nitpicking going on of small details.

Sangwa, I take you as an intelligent person, but your post quoting me is entirely pointless and ungrounded in anything factual. Simply put, you are wrong. I will use the very quotes you proffered as proof.

Quote
And all you folks who talk about power, quiet yourselves before I go into a rant on how much power you all actually have, including the vaunted DE.

I take this to mean you disagree with me. The fact is, you have no true power. You can not change or effect anything in the game. You can not influence people who do not wish to be influenced, and you have no recourse against them if they ignore you. Unless you count ooc spamming of his character and forum identity, but any n00b can do that. You can not turn NPC against him. You can not change laws. You can not alter the economy, as NPCs will always continue selling their wares at the same price, despite what you do. You can not disrupt the 'natural' evolution of the player economy in any great way, of GMs will step in and stop you with claims of cheating or other some such. All in all, you are basically powerless to all but your own followers, and the greatest punishment you can give them is a simple kick from you guild, and the loss of 'power' that comes with it.

I understand power, and guilds simply do not have it. A guild can come and go, and nothing would change. The DE could vanish tomorrow, and nothing would change. Munkii's guild could gain a great many players who are actually good at RP, and still, nothing would change. Until all this changes, and guilds do have actual power to change things in the game, do not assume any guild -including the DE- is more powerful than the next. You simply aren’t.

Quote
Now, point out to me exactly where is states in there that this person -or a politician for that matter- is an actual member of the government.

and..

A Politician - Our representatives in the government

You sir, are mincing words, and only taking the meanings that you wish out of them. Yes, it could mean that his contact in the government is one of its leaders. And, I would like you to point out exactly where that would be out of line with the settings. I assume you have read the Settings? If not, I have another quote at ready:

Quote
Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary. Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery

Let me parse that for you. 'Normally', this means most of the time, not always. That is defiantly backed up by the second part of the quote:  "is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected". By the gods, being in the government does not require you to be in a guild at all? No, you do not have to be. Nor do you have to be leader of a guild, as some have been putting forth. Quote to me in that statement where it says "guild leaders". Hmmm. Nowhere. They come from the craft guilds, period. That could mean anybody from guild leader to new apprentice. You being in the DE should very well know the most powerful people in an organization will often use an in-between in relations to others. Would the leader of the DE step forth to be a part of the government, or send one of his lackies? Does a rich and powerful businessman drop his business to go into politics, or would he support someone from beneath him that he can trust? Uh hu. My point exactly.

The rest of that quote explains itself, and actually gives credibility to Munkii's claim. If there have been people tossed out of the government because of unlawful behavior, that means there has to be that type of person in the government in the first place, and likely still is. So Munkii has every right to lay claim that one of them might have ties to the Crooks, sad as it is.

Again, since you missed in your first reading, I will once again define politician:

# a leader engaged in civil administration (yes, this would have to be a member of the government)
# a person active in party politics (Nope, no actual government position here)
# a schemer who tries to gain advantage in an organization in sly or underhanded ways (Bingo! We have Munkii's kind of man)

Now to dissect the actual phrasing. 'representitive'. There is no such job in the government of PS, so that can not be taken t face value. You must then look to the definition of the word.

# a person who represents others

If a person is working in the government, and is representing Munkii (silly as it seems) then yes, that is a representative, despite the job title.

'in the government'

A government is a complicated creature, and there are -thousands- of ways to be in it, without -leading- it. Example: Joe is a janitor in the DE. Joe represents janitors. Therefore, other janitors can, in fact, claim that Joe is their representative in the DE.

I would also like to point out at this time that this is the name of a guild rank, not an actual job title. Gangs (as I see this as) often give grandiose names to their member positions. He could have called the rank 'King' instead of Politician, and you still would have nothing to say against it. In RL, I am member of a small literary club. The leader is called the Queen. I am the Mayor of the Spinning Head, even though I do nothing remotely mayor-like, nor have a spinning head. A guild rank is nothing more than a name. Deal with it.

As to you folks who are ridiculing this and other guilds for just wanting to have fun, this IS a game. Guilds don't really DO anything. In fact, guilds are nothing more than expensive (in terms of tria) chatrooms filled to the brim with mostly ooc chatter.

I am amazed that Munkii is still trying to do this with all the negativity directed at him. You folks should know better by now. He is trying, despite what may seem a bit of a silly premise (as he admits himself).

Now, you want to continue mincing words with me, you had better start bringing facts to the table. 'Opinions' don't cut it.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: LARAGORN on February 18, 2007, 05:07:48 pm
Well said UTM :thumbup:
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 18, 2007, 05:23:15 pm
I am the first to admit that 'The Crooks' is a silly guild that will not likely survive long. I am not defending it, but its right to exist. I am also defending it against the pointless nitpicking going on of small details.

It is still better than many other guilds that never put threads here for obvious reasons.

I understand power, and guilds simply do not have it. A guild can come and go, and nothing would change. The DE could vanish tomorrow, and nothing would change. Munkii's guild could gain a great many players who are actually good at RP, and still, nothing would change. Until all this changes, and guilds do have actual power to change things in the game, do not assume any guild -including the DE- is more powerful than the next. You simply aren’t.

And once the wipe prior to 1.0 comes(Estimated time: 15 years), everything will be reseted, and the fact a guild/organization is older or newer will make only a difference, the number of people willing to join it when it is founded again(Of course sometimes a mass-recruitment guild makes much more willing people to join).

Also, about this, I hope that this part of the settings (http://www.planeshift.it/government.html) isn't written on the stone and unchangeable. A dynamic system on politics would be much more interesting than that possibility. Otherwise, the way to acquire power would be pretty limited for guilds that aren't willing to work together with the establishment(Unless you could actually build a whole city and its economy with enough people and masonry skills, beyond the stone labyrinths). And in game, guilds are actually powerless to anything besides fighting among themselves. Claiming you own a territory in the middle of Yliakum would be godmodding.

As to you folks who are ridiculing this and other guilds for just wanting to have fun, this IS a game. Guilds don't really DO anything. In fact, guilds are nothing more than expensive (in terms of tria) chatrooms filled to the brim with mostly ooc chatter.

The only feature that works in almost 100% of effectiveness is the chat. Other game systems are pretty flawed, unbalanced and limited. And about Munkii guild...

I want to have fun by making a goofy character to save the world from the Evil Munkii!  :whistling:

Because I'm bored with the monotonous way this game currently works due to the lack of ways to achieve real power in the game.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 18, 2007, 05:54:55 pm
Aye, UTM you seem to be correct. When someone sees a word used in a rank title though they usually think along the lines of careers. The type of politician you seem to be advocating is not a career polotician. I accept that I was wrong in those regards but my reason for assuming that at first is I believe perfectly justified firstly for the obvious reason of its usage here and secondly because of Munkii's defence of it-"It's just role playing!" He obviously seems to want the opposite of what you're saying.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 18, 2007, 07:09:09 pm
Under the Moon is wrong in a number of ways.  First, he's hardly the first person to be critical of the guild.  Secondly, his claim that no one has any true power in the game is flawed as well.  If that was true, there would be no guilds:  Most obviously, every individual has the power to help other people.  After that is the power innate to charismatic leadership, and after that is the ability to blackmail.  It is indeed possible to move people to action.  If nothing else, then for the purpose of your "RP events".

It's also rather silly to say that we're "ridiculing this and other guilds for just wanting to have fun".  We're feeding this guy constructive criticism to try to help him out.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 18, 2007, 07:14:27 pm
He's right about the polititian thing though. Asides from that he's wrong.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 18, 2007, 08:06:10 pm
He's right about the polititian thing though. Asides from that he's wrong.

Except that I think the intention behind the term was more akin to Sangwa's interpretation.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Under the moon on February 18, 2007, 09:33:37 pm
Facts, folks, argue with facts. You completely ignored where I wrote that it would be perfectly within the Settings of this game for an actual Vigesimi to be in Munkii's pocket. Unlikely, yes, but still within the bounds of the given information.

Opinions, Zanzabar, as all of you statements are, do not constitute a valid argument. It is your opinion that I do not have the ability to be critical of a guild. Others have the opposite opinion. Simply put, neither of you have enough personal knowledge of me to make that judgment. Until you do, take a back seat. I am not wrong, for the facts clearly point out that I am right. I shall further narrow my statement to say that a guild in this game does not have any more power than a single person. A single person does not have the ability to truly change anything within the IC settings. That is a fact. Your examples permit only that which happens between characters. What has any guild done IC to permanently change anything? For that matter, what guild has done anything to temporarily change anything? RP events come and go, and never leave a footprint. I know this better than any. What you describe as power is nothing more than imagined. Do you have the power to touch any of my characters? No. Your claims to power are just smoke in the wind.

As for constructive criticism, I have not seen much constructive in it at all. The main goal of many of the posters in this thread does not seem to have the feel of betterment behind them, but of just wanting this guild to go away. I just re-read all the posts, and the only "constructive" criticism that people were giving -in a greatly demeaning way- is that the rank of lockpick should have to pick locks, and that he could not have a politician working for him. Both of these are unfounded and false claims. First, as said, these are guild TITLES only, and do not have to have any bearing on what the folks holding them actually do. A lockpick could very well be a demeaning term for a newer person. New detectives were once called gumshoes. Did they have gum on their shoes? No. In a gang group, do you think new members are going to have the respect of a established one? The part about the politician I have proven wrong in detail. Even if Sangwa is right in his interpretation, he is still wrong, as the info he based that opinion on is wrong.

For once, start using you brains to figure out what could actually be, rather than what should not be, based on you opinions. I am sure I could go through most every guild made, and find things to pick out based on the known facts. The further fact is that I have looked through the post Munkii made about his guild, and have found -nothing- that goes against the Settings, current gameplay, or human ability. It is the boast of an overly ambitious punk (meaning Munkii's character, not Munkii himself). It is the same as if a gang leader in any given city of today was to look at his buddies and say "Some day, guys, we are going to own this town."

Wrong? I think not.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 18, 2007, 10:05:21 pm
Facts, folks, argue with facts. You completely ignored where I wrote that it would be perfectly within the Settings of this game for an actual Vigesimi to be in Munkii's pocket. Unlikely, yes, but still within the bounds of the given information.
No one's saying it would be outside of the settings.  It's just not a practical goal for him to have - not for where he is now, anyway.

Opinions, Zanzabar, as all of you statements are, do not constitute a valid argument.
Unless you're talking about opinions.

It is your opinion that I do not have the ability to be critical of a guild.
I don't recall saying that.

I am not wrong, for the facts clearly point out that I am right. I shall further narrow my statement to say that a guild in this game does not have any more power than a single person. A single person does not have the ability to truly change anything within the IC settings. That is a fact.
Sure thing, but it's only one example of how power can be used.  There are many others, and you did not specify which ones you were talking about in particular.

Your examples permit only that which happens between characters.
So what?  You did not specify what you meant by power.  Things that happen between characters can be used to demonstrate power.

As for constructive criticism, I have not seen much constructive in it at all.
Really?  That's odd.  I've seen tonnes between the two threads.  Must be a difference of opinion.

For once, start using you brains to figure out what could actually be, rather than what should not be, based on you opinions.
You must hate double negatives.

It is the boast of an overly ambitious punk (meaning Munkii's character, not Munkii himself). It is the same as if a gang leader in any given city of today was to look at his buddies and say "Some day, guys, we are going to own this town."  Wrong? I think not.
I doubt that it's Munkii's intention to be a punk on the street making outlandish claims.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Under the moon on February 18, 2007, 10:24:16 pm
Most goals people set for themselves are not practical, especially when they are about achieving power.

Quote
First, he's hardly the first person to be critical of the guild.

Losing our memory in our old age, are we?

Guilds simply have no power over me, nor the vast majority of players. That is just a simple fact. You may try to claim you have power, but it is a paltry thing. The only power you have is that which others allow you to have. A simple /ignore takes all your claimed power away, and the game goes on.

Now I give you your moment to shine in all of you quote giving glory, Zanzi. Point out the exact points where constructive criticism was given in -this- thread. Note that they must be based on actual fact and not assumed fact. Lay 'em on me.

Lastly, you must be an extrodinary mind reader, as I don't know what Munkii is intending. Besides, intention is the same as setting a goal. Not all goals are achieved, and just because something may not be achieved, it does not mean it should never be tried. If that was the truth, there would be no PS, and you would be bothering someone else on another forum.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 18, 2007, 10:26:31 pm
Who knows if this funny and non serious aspect is just a disguise to make others underestimate Munkii or if this all is nothing but a smokescreen for something more secretive?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Nurahk on February 18, 2007, 10:29:17 pm
Yay for long winded arguments by people who just can't admit they are wrong.

It's an interesting point saying that guilds do not have power.  The only way to back that up is by bringing forth the argument that people do not have to RP.  So yes, if the game wasn't centralized around RP, I would agree, the guild has no power.  As it is, many people respect the power that the guilds have, for instance, during the Demorian Lords time the Demorian Lords stayed away from the Dark Empire and the Dark Empire away from the Demorian Lords, why?  Because they both feared the other groups power among other reasons.

A guild's power is based solely on the ability of others to roleplay.  This will always be true, to give a guild the ability to have power would be to open up the possibility of a group of grievers taking that power.  The more power you put into the game, the more powerlevelers and grievers will be attracted to it.


The Crooks, from what I understand, is Munkii taking up the position of a comical mastermind supervillain and having an assortment of Henchmen and #2s and the like.  I've got nothing against that.  The tone in his first post did not reflect that clearly enough and so he was pounced on.  You can not deny that had the Crooks been a serious organization, they would need to instill a couple changes.

This misinterpretation lead to people pouncing on the guild, Munkii then explained that it was a comical guild but, by then it had spiraled into one of the many threads based around the posters' pride and inability to admit they were wrong.  This applies to both sides of the argument.

I say give the Crooks a chance.

@Munkii: Have fun but, remember to respect other people's right to Roleplay seriously.
@Sangwa: We've both had to put up with stupid guilds before, I know it's agrivating but, you'll have to watch your tone from now on.  We can't see your smile here, buddy :)
@Zanzibar: Yes...
@LordRaleigh: Austin Powers...I can see that.  And who knows? :P
@Underthemoon: That whole first part about guild power, enjoy :)
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 18, 2007, 11:31:33 pm
Now I give you your moment to shine in all of you quote giving glory, Zanzi.
Not only am I good at quoting things, but I'm good at responding to them!  Perhaps discussion with me would be more fruitful if you addressed the content of my posts.

Point out the exact points where constructive criticism was given in -this- thread.
For one, pointing out the constructive criticism in the previous thread.

Lastly, you must be an extrodinary mind reader, as I don't know what Munkii is intending.
Wasn't that my point?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: LARAGORN on February 18, 2007, 11:53:19 pm
Wasn't that my point?

It is hard to tell, it seems your point is to negate anything constructive or logical.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 19, 2007, 02:16:12 am
Wasn't that my point?

It is hard to tell, it seems your point is to negate anything constructive or logical.

People are posting such funny things today, I love it. :)
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Sangwa on February 19, 2007, 04:28:06 am
Quote
I am the first to admit that 'The Crooks' is a silly guild that will not likely survive long. I am not defending it, but its right to exist. I am also defending it against the pointless nitpicking going on of small details.

Excuse me, where do I say they have no right to exist?

I didn't even bother to read what you said about power. There was the word "n00b", the words "effects on the game" and some other babbling that didn't have anything with the powers guilds are able to have in planeshift.

About the politician part... Vigesimi are the politicians in the game. At least the kind of politicians he was speaking about.

You can go ahead and defend people just because you like to. I have nothing against it. I'll merely stick with stating my points and pointing at how other points might be not as valid. Like I tried to do with my latter succession of quotes.

EDIT TO ADD: Nurahk, it's a lot more fun when they can't see me smiling.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 19, 2007, 04:31:56 am
In the character creation, you can define one of your character parents as a Politician(assistant to Vigesimis from the way it's described), Vigesimi or temporary Octarch.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Sangwa on February 19, 2007, 04:48:28 am
Quote
At least the kind of politicians he was speaking about.

Quote
A Politician - Our representatives in the government, they buy people's votes, bribe local guards, and send threats to opposing parties - although they work separately, they will usually take orders directly from me.

What have your parents to do with a character's role? Can you choose to be an octarch or a vigesimi?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 19, 2007, 04:57:11 am
What I meant is that it gives a very specific meaning for what is a "politician" inside the government:

An assistant to a Vigesimi.

*Added to Sangwa: Yeah, the representatives of "Dr. Evil" Munkii playing around as they will never become real politicians
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Sangwa on February 19, 2007, 05:03:35 am
Have you read what he said about his Politician concept? I'd quote it for the third time... But I think you'd better read it on the first post. Specially when it says "in the government."

EDIT: (Actually quoted him for the third time, didn't I?)

EDIT TO ADD: Being inside the Government means having a position within. It isn't stated that assistants have actual position within the Government, which allows us to consider they are not inside it, but merely work about it. Besides, mere assistants wouldn't be able to do all the bribing and controlling he wants.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 22, 2007, 11:20:15 am
Edited:

Sangwa, UTM point is, you're also role playing stuff up, and by "role playing" i actually mean "pretending" (that's not my general interpretation of RolePlaying), as much as my guild does, maybe even more really, as i said i've read every piece of document on the PS site and nothing seemed to apply with the kind of claims you're making.

and NO my guild isn't a 'joke' my ranks are real, my policy is real, even my 'goals' are REAL, whether i'll be able to achieve them is another story, adding humour to something doesn't instantly make it a 'joke' - you've got a lot to learn about humour, that goes for parallo and zanzibar too.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 22, 2007, 11:43:09 am
It's Par-a-llo.

You obviously need to learn more about roleplaying if you think it's simply pretending.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Idoru on February 22, 2007, 12:32:41 pm
Well, I liked the original post.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 22, 2007, 08:52:01 pm
you've got a lot to learn about humour, that goes for parallo and zanzibar too.

You keep inventing reasons to dismiss our suggestions.  Why?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Sangwa on February 22, 2007, 09:18:15 pm
I'm sorry, but your guild currently looks as a joke. You are roleplaying a person that wants to be called "The Evil Munkii" that leads "The Crooks." That sounds funny.

The politician and Lock Picker issues, however, aren't about roleplay. They're about sense. It doesn't make sense to have a rank people can't attain (Politician as it is currently defined) or rank that's named because you "found the name cool for noobs." Lock Pickers pick locks.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: lordraleigh on February 22, 2007, 09:35:38 pm
Renaming suggestions to make it a little better(or should I say, less worse):

Change "The Evil Munkii" to "The Invisible Hand" or "The Invisible Claw" :thumbup:

Change "Politicians" to "Demagogues" ::)

Change "Lock Picker" to "Pickpocket" (Makes more sense for a lower level ranking on a gang)
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 23, 2007, 03:37:43 pm
lordraleigh, i don't think changing names would make any difference, and lock picking is already more integrated into the game  than pick-pocketing, i especially don't know what is the point of changing that name?!

 Zanzibar, and you keep repeting the same sentence over and over, i'm just as opinionated as YOU are.

Sangwa, you just don't get it.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 23, 2007, 03:48:41 pm
You can rp picking pockets more than you can locks.

I seriously recommend you try to understand what Sangwa and Zanzibar are saying.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 23, 2007, 04:00:14 pm
Parallo, my recent changes were according to what i heard from them (and everybody else), that is last of what their critiques can get me to do. they should just lay back and watch how my guild will preform, if it fails, then they were right hands down, if it worked itself out they'll probably regret not shutting up about it.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Sangwa on February 23, 2007, 04:36:44 pm
If it works I won't regret anything. I'll just be concerned with the players' standards.

Well, it's your own choice not to listen to reason. I hope you good luck with it. Seems like it's the only thing I can do now.
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on February 23, 2007, 04:54:00 pm
If it works I won't regret anything. I'll just be concerned with the players' standards.


Ahaha! I'm going to keep that quote :P
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 23, 2007, 07:43:46 pm
Zanzibar, and you keep repeting the same sentence over and over, i'm just as opinionated as YOU are.

Would you care to guess why it seems like I'm repeating myself?
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 23, 2007, 10:58:36 pm
UPDATE:


Now we have a disccusion Board: http://crooks.informe.com (woohoo)  :)
 
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Suno_Regin on February 23, 2007, 10:59:28 pm
The logo doesn't match the color of the forum. =P
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: zanzibar on February 23, 2007, 11:01:16 pm
The logo doesn't match the color of the forum. =P

And it's a blatant rip off of Culmi Navarre's logo.  (Just kidding.  I like it.)

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/_zanz/culminavarre.jpg)
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 23, 2007, 11:09:27 pm
I just created it, i'm still tweaking  :P
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on February 25, 2007, 08:17:29 pm
UPDATE

some minor changes on the guild's web-site:

- The image-map on the front page works perfectly now  (try clicking the take-a-peek thingy)
- Now you can access the guild's forum from the website, and stay IN! (note: the forum hasn't been tweaked yet)
- We have a working gallery now (first attempt)
       and, hover your mouse over the crooks sign, you might see a little surprise  :P

see ya all later

edit:

a link http://crooks.xordan.com, duh!

edit:

it just came to my attention that imagemapping is not implemented in either Konqueror  or Opera web browsers, try using Firefox, Epiphany or IE  to view the site, or just use this link http://crooks.xordan.com/home.html to skip the index page  :)

Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Ryiel Fohpaws on March 02, 2007, 07:41:19 pm
What about working on the guild itself? :D I do like your website, though :D
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on March 02, 2007, 10:43:09 pm
guild? what guild? i thought that's it!  :P
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Parallo on March 02, 2007, 10:46:08 pm
We warned you. We said people would laugh :P
Title: Re: [GUILD] The Crooks - Updated
Post by: Munkii on March 03, 2007, 12:00:13 am
god! do you ever stop?

edit

sorry, the yellow guy didn't load first time, but still  :P