PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: John80sk on February 26, 2007, 08:50:41 am
-
Well, Zanzibar's thread got me thinking about practical ways to stop people from things like killing each other in front of Harnquists...
Now, lets face it, beating an NPC in combat isn't exactly difficult, regardless of their stats. It's even easier to run away from them, as they seem to rarely be able to find your position. So, what's the solution then? To me, it's quite simple, a gm run guild of town guards. Basically we'd find a gm willing to be the guard leader, and they'd manage a group mature enough to handle the responsibilites of a guard.
Now, the main difference between guards and regular players is that they'd be able to challenge anyone at any time in city areas, no accept or decline, they just get to kill you. This right here is the reason why it would have to be GM run, in order to prevent it from turning into the guild everyone joins so they can kill whoever they want.
In the long run an arrest ability would also be nice. This would also go hand in hand with a non lethal duel option, where basically they'd defeat you and force you into a forced follow type deal.
Other than the ability to challenge anyone in Hydlaa and Oja however, guards would be identical to normal players. I think this in itself would lead to much more interesting RP, as 'evil' characters would have to avoid the town guards, and 'good' characters couldn't go around slaughtering people because of something they said, etc.
Anyways, as usual, I know this post probably isn't the best written, but I think you all get the idea :P
-
I seriously doubt this will work ...
1) GM's have different jobs and adding this to their list will either require many many more GMs or sacrifice their help with sorting out bugs and keeping abuse to a minimum.
2) I predict quite a few posts about "GM's jailed my character .. I'm being treated injust! Whine whine whine ..." their popularity among the players is already pretty thin, no need to kick it down further.
NPC guards and a good "crime & punishment" system is what we need.
Player guards for RPs are strongly encouraged by me but they can't be granted real power, they'll only have as much power as the people who RP with them give them. And since everyone is very reluctant to submit to anyone else .. that is doomed to fail.
-
hmmm I would have to disagree. With enough effort it could work quite nicely having a guild of players that act like guards with just a little bit more power. However it's true people would have to be selected carefully and that would be quite a strain on GMs.
It would however be a step between being a player and a GM and that makes it interesting in my eyes.
-
I think it is a brilliant idea (not only because I was thinking something similar myself ;o))
The problem with waiting for NPC guards is that even in commercial games the NPC AI is pretty easy to evade.
I think it would be reasonably easy to find 'guard' players who are mature and reponsible enough to have this ability. Maybe make it so they create a new account and get certain advantages in stats, give them the ability to do a /who for the player name and it gives their /POS (quite OOC but its just an idea to help them find the trouble makers) or just let them create a new kind of RP with groups of guards going round searching for these players and asking others whether they have seen them.
The only problem IMO would be that unless they are Enki or not in Hydlaa its still not much of a punishment to be sent to the DR, they would be back in a couple of minutes and be even more irritated. Maybe after the 10th time they've died they would give up on their nefarious activities, I would hope so atleast.
-
Have either of you tried RPing a guard? Try 'punishing' people as another person and see how they react ... I can assure you that 90% will not react well :P Having players, GMs or anything in between being responcible for punishing other players for reasons they think are right .. it's just asking for a whole heap of trouble and complaining. Let the game mechanics handle this and nobody can complain about anything except about the game itself. That kind of complaining will always be there anyway :P
Don't get me wrong, personally I'd love to see other players pick up the role of city guard but I've tried it myself and I don't see much good coming out of. When I tried it I was ignored, laughed at or killed in duels most of the time .. rarely taken seriously. If I was given powers to actually control the mob I couldn't be ignored anymore .. but I don't think it would be accepted.
-
You mean you want a PS version of the Crimson Knights? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.hack//Sign#Characters)
-
*smiles*
Someone who watched it aswell ;)
Well about the same idea exept that in thatserie it's a game where death actually means something annoying and it is very OOC.
If guards like that would be implemented in PS they should be selected on roleplayskills and obviously a rudimental lawsystem should be thought out so the guards don't punish what they feel is wrong, but simply becuase persons are breaking the law. The people who feel pissed about that I don't think really understand the goal of the game. If you do something wrong IC you should accept atleast as a player the IC punishment and not start complaining about people playing their part.
-
I'd rather avoid having real people do such things, because those people would then be targetted for harassment. If a NPC does it, or if it's built into the system, twerps will have no one to attack except the game itself.... and calling a NPC names doesn't do much harm to anyone.
-
I dunno they haven't been talking to me much lately... ;)
-
/me hmmmmmmms.
I could be a fair guard, and I know Zan could. I could also name a bunch of other folks who could do a fair jobs as well. The problem remains the same. GMs can not be everywhere, and players can not be everywhere. Nor can they be on all the time.
I -am- in favor of being able to become a guard with special 'powers' (like /kick-out-of-tavern-you-n00b), IF they could be used with respect. But, that would only be an RP backup to the true system.
I shall repost what I wrote in the other thread.
But I do say a big NO to having the GMs step in for one main reason. GMs don't want to be babysitters, and they can not be there all the time. In the future, PS may have thousands of players on at once, and GMs can not cover all of the areas that are not ok to fight in. In my system, I outlined two things that would specifically curb the need for GMs.
One was the /stopfight command that other players can do if they see the fight as disruptive and OOC. This -could- be used to troll, and some creep could run around trying to stop all dueling, but the system could be adjusted to curb that. Prhaps multiple /stopfights would be needed from more than one player.
The second is even more simple. The system already supports various PvP zones (though not in use yet), and a duel spamming trigger. Any place that is deemed as not good for fighting can not be fought in without alerting the guards. This includes just challenging, even if it is declined. I am in support of guards that can automatically ‘poof’ into the scene with special guard-only-glyphs, then ‘poof’ the offender outside the city gates with a stern warning. The ‘killing’ for duel challenging I do not like, as it goes directly against the Settings saying killing for a crime is rare. Porting to a random point in the middle of nowhere is a much better, and much more realistic (in a magic world, that is) way to do things. And, much more irritating for the spammer. Once again, the system would need some tweaking to work well.
-
Why not have it so that the guards can take the weapons of duelers and maybe impose a fine based on percentage. As was seen with the last wipe, people take notice when they lose money and valuable items. This would prevent the need to kill and about whining, well, people in the real legal system whine all the time about fines that they earned. There isn't much that can be done about that.
-
1) GM's have different jobs and adding this to their list will either require many many more GMs or sacrifice their help with sorting out bugs and keeping abuse to a minimum.
I'm talking about a particular GM who would be appointed to oversee this, perhaps even a new GM to do so.
2) I predict quite a few posts about "GM's jailed my character .. I'm being treated injust! Whine whine whine ..." their popularity among the players is already pretty thin, no need to kick it down further.
Warn followed by an IP ban. Problem solved.
I'd rather avoid having real people do such things, because those people would then be targetted for harassment. If a NPC does it, or if it's built into the system, twerps will have no one to attack except the game itself.... and calling a NPC names doesn't do much harm to anyone.
Aren't real police officers the targets of harrassment? If it gets OOC then the guard would report it to their gm masters and they'd get banned.
I could be a fair guard, and I know Zan could. I could also name a bunch of other folks who could do a fair jobs as well. The problem remains the same. GMs can not be everywhere, and players can not be everywhere. Nor can they be on all the time.
Neither are cops, but it helps to have someone patrolling the city anyways, doesn't it?
The truth is that GM's are too busy to deal with every n00b, and most people don't want the responsibility of being a GM. However, people being allowed to RP a guard and continue to play the game normally with no other responsibilty other than to RP would be a lot easier. Not to mention a lot of this can easily be implimented, while working NPC guards most likely won't happen for years, if ever.
-
Anyone with any ability to mute/kick/ban other players will have to be hand-selected and tested, and it would take a very long time to amass a decent amount of trustworthy guards.
Besides, we all thought it would take years for maps to be implemented, but they're already here. Sometimes development is unpredictable in the best of ways.
-
I'll take your word for it when NPC's work... at all :P
No, they don't get to mute/kick/ban. They would report people, and would be taken seriously unlike most petitions complaining about other players are. Their only real ability now would be to kill players without having to worry about them declining with the current system. Hopefully in the future Yliakum will have a prison as well, so they can be 'arrested'.
-
They would report people, and would be taken seriously unlike most petitions complaining about other players are.
All petitions concerning other players should be taken seriously. If they aren't, it is a fault of the GM considering the petition :]
Their only real ability now would be to kill players without having to worry about them declining with the current system. Hopefully in the future Yliakum will have a prison as well, so they can be 'arrested'.
Considering how the current combat system works, even if you can strike someone without challenging them you're not going to be able to do much damage unless you're both standing around. A bothersome individual can run from guards endlessly, thus rendering the entire setup quite useless.
-
I'd think they'd fall more under "justice league" or "executioners" rather than "Guards" if all they do is kill... [Yes I know you suggest using arrest in the long run, but until that time] some questions the idea raises are as follows;
how that would fit with the game settings saying killing for a crime is rare?.. of course you currently die for spamming.. and they also say klyros can see better in the dark, and about a billion other things that don't apply, so who really cares what's implemented in relation to what settings say?... Or as someone said how death is hardly a meaningful punishment currently, affecting some races more than others depending where they die... and should people escape justice if they just died of their own fault, by the time their offence was reported/noticed?--it takes 2 to tango & when a pair duel in front of harns [first of BOTH are accepring risk of death already, second] if 'Guard" arrives after one dies & kills the other all it means is in certain areas /challenge should do the same as /die for both parties as soon as either accepts... unless we imagine the challege happening in town then they walk out to fight as i have known many to do....-- And what point would there be if they got the privelledge to fight without challenge? so that every fight in plaza means another fight in plaza?--and unless they got other major advantages how could they ensure winning? especially with more than one wrongdoer?--and you just know that upon seeing a guard just kill someone in the streets it could easily invite many people to try & persuade the guard to try picking on somene their own size etc...
My suggestion, assuming you want to stay with this idea of a guild of players hand-picked by GM(s), with some added power(s), to 'guard' or enforce law, is to skip ahead to the arrest part.--i would suggest allowing them a command that does 5 things at once: 1)--mute, 2)--immobilize, 3)--report, 4)-- opens petition window for [guard] to make their own report of actions etc that report log may not cover...5)--ediit description so the bottom says "You evaluate that this person has been incapacitated (or bound & gagged) by [guards], you see their crest on his/her bindings.
You evaluate that these bindings would be impossible to circumvent"
..The freeze & mute would stay in effect until a gm [presumably the one overseeing this group] arrived & decided to let em go, or whatnot... This would make sense for a group hand-picked for dealing with ic & ooc offenders...
BUT the real question that should come before any of that is: are you discussing guards for IC things or OOC things? or both? After all while i feel the people dueling by harn should have guards doing something about them, i feel the same about people rping as thieves & that those same guards should be able to take action against them... however i don't know that i feel someone spamming or talking out of character should really have to answer to those guards, as their roles are suppose to pertain to IC & for them to be 'policing' people's OOC actions makes their response equally ooc... and any ooc offences in current system are meant to just be taken up with gms... Like what was just said about /reports, it's already up to everyone to be vigil of such matters & everyone is already able to make equally serious reports...
Assuming it's more an IC thing, it sounds more like the sort of thing i would strongly advise be put as, if anything, an addendum to UtM's suggestion of the sort of dungeon--perhaps people could do good guy/law enforcement quests, then after say 3 people [greater/lower number depending on faction] with all/most of those "good" quests completed, use an "encarcerate" glyph [that can only be attained by certain quests & requires certain factions to use], on the same person, that person is teleported to this jail realm place... If that gets abused who cares? police can be corrupt, just makes 'evil' characters more humanized etc right?... And since the power granted is related to playerskill at questing, mechanic related, etc you can jail either for breaking the law or just "what you feel is wrong", andno one can whine about unfair jailing... The only kind of 'unfair' jailing in such a situation is a bit of a catch 22-- "I insulted him ooc so he jailed me"-- is just reporting yourself for breaking rules. if the person jailing you wants they could have decided to rp as "you looked suspicious so i jailed you without warning. deal with it."..
-
BUT the real question that should come before any of that is: are you discussing guards for IC things or OOC things? or both?
That's my question too .. it sounds like you are treating breaking the law IC as an OOC abuse. All those things about 'report', 'ban', 'mute', etc. They're OOC punishments for OOC crimes. We already have the GM's doing that role.
Guards that uphold the in-game law are In Character and should only act as such. Since the death penalty in Yliakum is very rare according to the settings they should definitely not run around killing offenders. This is why I want a good law & punishment system integrated in the game mechanics before we start talking about player guards. All Guards can do now is roleplay and anyone can roleplay.
-
Well, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of crimes commited in game are murders. Now, a guy shoots one person and runs around brandishing a weapon, he's gonna get popped the second he looks at a cop the wrong way. Scratch that, if you have a weapon, refuse to submit to the police, and make a single threatening move, you'd get shot... as a matter of fact, you'd most likely be shot even if you didn't make a threatening move.
That's my question too .. it sounds like you are treating breaking the law IC as an OOC abuse. All those things about 'report', 'ban', 'mute', etc. They're OOC punishments for OOC crimes. We already have the GM's doing that role.
I'm talking about bunching them both under the same job actually. Now, to me, I generally treat anyone who's behaving in a disruptive and OOC matter as a crazy person IC (if I don't completely ignore them) while explaining roleplay to them through /tells or in a group. I suppose I'd add two extra abilities to the 'guards' those being immobilize and mute (from public chat that is). Basically a guard would stop them and explain things to them, if they were a pain, they'd get the higher ups involved.
All petitions concerning other players should be taken seriously. If they aren't, it is a fault of the GM considering the petition :]
Whether or not GM's aren't responding or players aren't making them I have no idea. The bottom line is there's still a lot of stupid people. This solves both problems, having people that you're sure will report offenders and being sure that GM's respond to the problem.
-
Ahhh so you're basically just wishing for GMs to act against bad roleplayers as well, disguised as guards then? Well that's a whole other matter .. I actually thought you wanted to have GMs be IC guards towards all roleplayers and uphold the law.
As for the real life example, it doesn't need to hold in Planeshift. Things don't work that way over here in my country ... yet. (crime is increasing sadly) So things don't have to work that way in Yliakum.
-
Ahhh so you're basically just wishing for GMs to act against bad roleplayers as well, disguised as guards then? Well that's a whole other matter .. I actually thought you wanted to have GMs be IC guards towards all roleplayers and uphold the law.
Both actually. Just like rl police officers they'd have to grab the crazies outside causing large disruptions and bring them in as well. If the crazies can't be helped they're put somewhere where they can't bother anyone ;)
Sure it's a stretch... and as far as I knew GM's might not whack bad roleplayers, but they'd take out public disturbances.
Primarily though, these would be RP guards, they would chase off murderers, theives, etc.
As for the real life example, it doesn't need to hold in Planeshift. Things don't work that way over here in my country ... yet. (crime is increasing sadly) So things don't have to work that way in Yliakum.
You must have a lot of dead cops if the don't fire when they have a gun pointed at them ::|
-
Nope we just have a firearm prohibition arm so very few cops get confronted with the barrel of someone's gun. Belgians are probably also much less inclined to point guns at police officers than Americans are. And my point still stands ... killing and violence is not the only way to have control over someone, especially not in a magical world like Yliakum.
-
How about GM's are out of character and unless in a gm event you are not to see them so no gm would be a rp guard ingame to punish people for rp reasons. [unless i read this thread wrong]
-
Nope we just have a firearm prohibition arm so very few cops get confronted with the barrel of someone's gun. Belgians are probably also much less inclined to point guns at police officers than Americans are. And my point still stands ... killing and violence is not the only way to have control over someone, especially not in a magical world like Yliakum.
Thing is Yliakum is like America... actually, it's easier to get a weapon in Yliakum. We've got people running around, brandishing weapons and killing each other. I'd think the government would have stepped in a long time ago.
How about GM's are out of character and unless in a gm event you are not to see them so no gm would be a rp guard ingame to punish people for rp reasons. [unless i read this thread wrong]
Not GM's... a new class with GM oversight.
-
Well this is getting off-topic but Yliakum is only like America because many players have that type of attitude .. settingswise I sincerely doubt that it is meant to be this way. I thought this is also what we're trying to fix here .. with all the recent fuss about dueling, etc. Less violence, more government. Up until now the government can only step in if we include it stepping in in our roleplaying though since there is no real government implemented yet.
-
Up until now the government can only step in if we include it stepping in in our roleplaying though since there is no real government implemented yet.
Which, unless kept completely benign & incredibly vague, could easily fall under what many deem godmodding.
-
Well this is getting off-topic but Yliakum is only like America because many players have that type of attitude .. settingswise I sincerely doubt that it is meant to be this way. I thought this is also what we're trying to fix here .. with all the recent fuss about dueling, etc. Less violence, more government. Up until now the government can only step in if we include it stepping in in our roleplaying though since there is no real government implemented yet.
Uh, that would be my point, it doesn't fit the settings. Something, IMO anyways, should be done.
I figure until there is a real gov system implimented, the dev/gm teams would be in charge of this sort of thing.
The problem here is people who don't roleplay, or refuse to roleplay in a sensible manner. When you try to say something to them you'll generally get a fun, but typical 1337 answer. Then they continue running around, spamming duels and the chat. This is kinda like forced roleplay, heh.
-
You want an effective guard? Then you need a jail, one that you can't /die or /unstick out of. Then fix the NPCclient run bug. So that it will be a simple mouse run, the guards will just have to tag you and you're off that 6x6x4(build by dwarves) hole in the wall, for a while. Sort of like an in game banning of that character. the more offenses you commit the longer your stay.
-
I don't like that idea. Prison should be more like a labor camp in PS, you would be able to continue learning skills, but ones more oriented to a life of crime. At the same time though, I think your inventory should be confiscated.
-
I agree that imprisoning players in a pointless box is not a good way to go .. this is still a game. The suggestion of making the prison level very large and populated by all sorts of shady NPC's is a lot more appealing. Criminal characters could be trying to get thrown in jail on purpose in order to brush up on some skills. There can be some excellent thieves thrown in jail for the rest of their lives.
It could basically be an alternative Death Realm. A whole world on it's own where laws don't count and there should also be some unique ways of getting out of there.
Sentences could consist of hard labour like mining duty. I also agree that all weaponry and possibly other items should definitely be confiscated when you are thrown in jail.
-
Sentences could consist of hard labour like mining duty.
Makes me laugh that this is seen as a punishment... sit outside the gold mine for a few hours, not many of them will move, and those that do will come back.
-
Sentences could consist of hard labour like mining duty.
Makes me laugh that this is seen as a punishment... sit outside the gold mine for a few hours, not many of them will move, and those that do will come back.
And it is so good solution ;D You wont be released till you dig x amount of ores, depending from the crime. Let's say like 300 ores ;D
Of course someone could organize escape for you, what would be even bigger fun, but this will only increase the punishment when you will be caught again, hehe
-
Sentences could consist of hard labour like mining duty.
Makes me laugh that this is seen as a punishment... sit outside the gold mine for a few hours, not many of them will move, and those that do will come back.
And it is so good solution ;D You wont be released till you dig x amount of ores, depending from the crime. Let's say like 300 ores ;D
Of course someone could organize escape for you, what would be even bigger fun, but this will only increase the punishment when you will be caught again, hehe
*cough* Labor Camps *cough*
/me evokes Godwins Law on such idea
I am pretty sure Yliakum government isn't in any way like Soviet Union
and also Yliakum government isn't in any way like III Reich
Thus having such things would not fit with the Settings.
I would say having a prison full of gangs, violence, escape plans, rioting and drugs or something like that.
Also "Labor Camps" would suck OOC as well. I'm pretty sure nobody would like to spend hours pressing a shortcut to mine ores to pay for their characters crimes. And below is why I would rather refrain from labor camps:
Главное Управление Исправительно—Трудовых Лагерей и колоний (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag)
Arbeitslager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeitslager)
-
How do you know what the Yliakum government is like? This is a medieval government after all, and things were generally a lot worse than labour camps for prisoners back in the day. I'm not talking about just mining either, but you would have to 'work off' your prison sentence. Perhaps it'd cost a certain amount of tria to get out of prison, which you could gather by doing various jobs around the prison map.
-
Like I said there should be a variety of ways to get out of the jail .. serving your sentence is only one of them and of course the one that is the least fun. As for what is and what isn't within the settings .. I'm leaving that up to the people in charge to decide. These are only suggestions.
P.S.: Narure, mining gold for hours for your own profit is something else than mining gold for hours just to get out of a map ;)
-
This is a game right? And its not real money correct? So people play games to have fun, tell me if I'm wrong. So if it is so different why do people sit at the mine digging gold all day to gain trains that will be wiped eventualy?
-
Well I read through this, and I had the thought that this might be a way to stabilize the economy, if used correctly. Such as the gold/ore mined by the "prison laborers" could be used to put in a treasury sort of thing, and the treasury would grow other ways too. Also, I LOVED the idea of having prison breaks organized, and a whole new prison map. To me, this is a awsome idea, and guards, prison, and the lot should be implemented. Just my two trias there.
P.S. But 300 ore? thats crazy. Maybe if it was a simple offence, just pay your bills and get out, but say you went on a rampage and murdered 10 people, then mining like that. But even if you did, maybe just a trip to the "gallows" and through the DR would work.
-
I have seen the concept of imposing enforced mining as a penalty in another game and despite having an entire faction devoted to law enforcement, it never stopped people from PK'g others unless it reached such a point that being incarcerated meant spending serious amounts of real time in there. The longest I heard of was one character that accumulated so many penalty points that it would have taken him 3 months real time, 24/7 mining to wipe out his penalty points and longer if he didn't mine but just waited it out.
Naturally during the beta phase, this was a small matter of just creating a new account. In that game there was no stat/skill levelling so it was a minor matter. Whether this would apply to PS would depend on how much time and tria has been invested in the character in question. Still if the penalty required 3 months of mining, I'm sure it would make more sense to just make a new character, build it up and go on another killing spree.
I would like to highlight though, in the other game, mining rate was consistent for every player that was sent to the mine. This should similarly be applied if this is implemented in PS. In other words, the mining skill of that character is ignored and a default mining skill level applied for all prisoners. Otherwise, the level of punishment would differ depending on mining skill level.
-
Naturally during the beta phase, this was a small matter of just creating a new account. In that game there was no stat/skill levelling so it was a minor matter. Whether this would apply to PS would depend on how much time and tria has been invested in the character in question. Still if the penalty required 3 months of mining, I'm sure it would make more sense to just make a new character, build it up and go on another killing spree.
But This would seriously decrease these killing sprees. Of course there are a few conditions, like good enough guard AI, or player guards and more, but look in real, you can never fully fix some problem.
I would like to highlight though, in the other game, mining rate was consistent for every player that was sent to the mine. This should similarly be applied if this is implemented in PS. In other words, the mining skill of that character is ignored and a default mining skill level applied for all prisoners. Otherwise, the level of punishment would differ depending on mining skill level.
This is impossible because of realism reasons.
-
I would like to highlight though, in the other game, mining rate was consistent for every player that was sent to the mine. This should similarly be applied if this is implemented in PS. In other words, the mining skill of that character is ignored and a default mining skill level applied for all prisoners. Otherwise, the level of punishment would differ depending on mining skill level.
This is impossible because of realism reasons.
In that case, throw out the mining idea as a way to speed up time of release and just stick to the absolute time spent in incarceration. A player with max stats/skills would spend less time in incarceration for the same crime as someone who does not have comparable stats/skills.
-
A player with max stats/skills would spend less time in incarceration for the same crime as someone who does not have comparable stats/skills.
That's life.
-
A higher lvl char would also be capable of more heinous crimes that would carry a heavier sentence :)
-
How about making the punishment dependent on the skill? Good miners might be ordered to cut down X number of trees or dig Y holes. There will be plenty of work to do to make sure you'll punish people severely enough I think.
-
Making someone do a task based on their weakest stat (example) would still make the punishment unfair as max stat/skilled players would still suffer a lesser penalty.
However, to put a little twist on your suggestion, if the punishment used the skill level as a multiplier then it might be more equitable.
-
That's what I was thinking .. also in the future, with the number of skills that are planned .. it is very unlikely that someone will be good at all of them.
-
Besides, who said that the guards are only interested in keeping law!? I know i know, most of you live in so lawfull or honest world, that you wouldn't even think about it. But maybe the guards in prison are more interested in the goods the prisoners are making for them? They just assume that the criminalist will come back to them soner or later, as its his nature. And the next time the punishment will be harder too and the guards/goverment will earn more too. That's really good business ;D
I really don't understand why some of you are looking justice around there ;P