Guards

[Krann Omins]

I'd think they'd fall more under "justice league" or "executioners" rather than "Guards" if all they do is kill... [Yes I know you suggest using arrest in the long run, but until that time] some questions the idea raises are as follows;

how that would fit with the game settings saying killing for a crime is rare?.. of course you currently die for spamming.. and they also say klyros can see better in the dark, and about a billion other things that don't apply, so who really cares what's implemented in relation to what settings say?... Or as someone said how death is hardly a meaningful punishment currently, affecting some races more than others depending where they die... and should people escape justice if they just died of their own fault, by the time their offence was reported/noticed?--it takes 2 to tango & when a pair duel in front of harns [first of BOTH are accepring risk of death already, second] if 'Guard" arrives after one dies & kills the other all it means is in certain areas /challenge should do the same as /die for both parties as soon as either accepts... unless we imagine the challege happening in town then they walk out to fight as i have known many to do....-- And what point would there be if they got the privelledge to fight without challenge? so that every fight in plaza means another fight in plaza?--and unless they got other major advantages how could they ensure winning? especially with more than one wrongdoer?--and you just know that upon seeing a guard just kill someone in the streets it could easily invite many people to try & persuade the guard to try picking on somene their own size etc...

My suggestion, assuming you want to stay with this idea of a guild of players hand-picked by GM(s), with some added power(s), to 'guard' or enforce law, is to skip ahead to the arrest part.--i would suggest allowing them a command that does 5 things at once: 1)--mute, 2)--immobilize, 3)--report, 4)-- opens petition window for [guard] to make their own report of actions etc that report log may not cover...5)--ediit description so the bottom says "You evaluate that this person has been incapacitated (or bound & gagged) by [guards], you see their crest on his/her bindings.
You evaluate that these bindings would be impossible to circumvent"
..The freeze & mute would stay in effect until a gm [presumably the one overseeing this group] arrived & decided to let em go, or whatnot... This would make sense for a group hand-picked for dealing with ic & ooc offenders...

BUT the real question that should come before any of that is: are you discussing guards for IC things or OOC things? or both? After all while i feel the people dueling by harn should have guards doing something about them, i feel the same about people rping as thieves & that those same guards should be able to take action against them... however i don't know that i feel someone spamming or talking out of character should really have to answer to those guards, as their roles are suppose to pertain to IC & for them to be 'policing' people's OOC actions makes their response equally ooc... and any ooc offences in current system are meant to just be taken up with gms... Like what was just said about /reports, it's already up to everyone to be vigil of such matters & everyone is already able to make equally serious reports...

Assuming it's more an IC thing, it sounds more like the sort of thing i would strongly advise be put as, if anything, an addendum to UtM's suggestion of the sort of dungeon--perhaps people could do good guy/law enforcement quests, then after say 3 people [greater/lower number depending on faction] with all/most of those "good" quests completed, use an "encarcerate" glyph [that can only be attained by certain quests & requires certain factions to use], on the same person, that person is teleported to this jail realm place... If that gets abused who cares? police can be corrupt, just makes 'evil' characters more humanized etc right?... And since the power granted is related to playerskill at questing, mechanic related, etc you can jail either for breaking the law or just "what you feel is wrong", andno one can whine about unfair jailing... The only kind of 'unfair' jailing in such a situation is a bit of a catch 22-- "I insulted him ooc so he jailed me"-- is just reporting yourself for breaking rules. if the person jailing you wants they could have decided to rp as "you looked suspicious so i jailed you without warning. deal with it."..

[Zan]

BUT the real question that should come before any of that is: are you discussing guards for IC things or OOC things? or both?

That's my question too .. it sounds like you are treating breaking the law IC as an OOC abuse. All those things about 'report', 'ban', 'mute', etc. They're OOC punishments for OOC crimes. We already have the GM's doing that role.

Guards that uphold the in-game law are In Character and should only act as such. Since the death penalty in Yliakum is very rare according to the settings they should definitely not run around killing offenders. This is why I want a good law & punishment system integrated in the game mechanics before we start talking about player guards. All Guards can do now is roleplay and anyone can roleplay.

[John80sk]

Well, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of crimes commited in game are murders.  Now, a guy shoots one person and runs around brandishing a weapon, he's gonna get popped the second he looks at a cop the wrong way.  Scratch that, if you have a weapon, refuse to submit to the police, and make a single threatening move, you'd get shot... as a matter of fact, you'd most likely be shot even if you didn't make a threatening move.

That's my question too .. it sounds like you are treating breaking the law IC as an OOC abuse. All those things about 'report', 'ban', 'mute', etc. They're OOC punishments for OOC crimes. We already have the GM's doing that role.

I'm talking about bunching them both under the same job actually.  Now, to me, I generally treat anyone who's behaving in a disruptive and OOC matter as a crazy person IC (if I don't completely ignore them) while explaining roleplay to them through /tells or in a group.  I suppose I'd add two extra abilities to the 'guards' those being immobilize and mute (from public chat that is).  Basically a guard would stop them and explain things to them, if they were a pain, they'd get the higher ups involved.

All petitions concerning other players should be taken seriously. If they aren't, it is a fault of the GM considering the petition :]

Whether or not GM's aren't responding or players aren't making them I have no idea.  The bottom line is there's still a lot of stupid people.  This solves both problems, having people that you're sure will report offenders and being sure that GM's respond to the problem.

[Zan]

Ahhh so you're basically just wishing for GMs to act against bad roleplayers as well, disguised as guards then? Well that's a whole other matter .. I actually thought you wanted to have GMs be IC guards towards all roleplayers and uphold the law.

As for the real life example, it doesn't need to hold in Planeshift. Things don't work that way over here in my country ... yet. (crime is increasing sadly) So things don't have to work that way in Yliakum.

[John80sk]

Ahhh so you're basically just wishing for GMs to act against bad roleplayers as well, disguised as guards then? Well that's a whole other matter .. I actually thought you wanted to have GMs be IC guards towards all roleplayers and uphold the law.

Both actually.  Just like rl police officers they'd have to grab the crazies outside causing large disruptions and bring them in as well.  If the crazies can't be helped they're put somewhere where they can't bother anyone

Sure it's a stretch... and as far as I knew GM's might not whack bad roleplayers, but they'd take out public disturbances.

Primarily though, these would be RP guards, they would chase off murderers, theives, etc.

As for the real life example, it doesn't need to hold in Planeshift. Things don't work that way over here in my country ... yet. (crime is increasing sadly) So things don't have to work that way in Yliakum.

You must have a lot of dead cops if the don't fire when they have a gun pointed at them

[Zan]

Nope we just have a firearm prohibition arm so very few cops get confronted with the barrel of someone's gun. Belgians are probably also much less inclined to point guns at police officers than Americans are. And my point still stands ... killing and violence is not the only way to have control over someone, especially not in a magical world like Yliakum.

[Caarrie]

How about GM's are out of character and unless in a gm event you are not to see them so no gm would be a rp guard ingame to punish people for rp reasons. [unless i read this thread wrong]

[John80sk]

Nope we just have a firearm prohibition arm so very few cops get confronted with the barrel of someone's gun. Belgians are probably also much less inclined to point guns at police officers than Americans are. And my point still stands ... killing and violence is not the only way to have control over someone, especially not in a magical world like Yliakum.

Thing is Yliakum is like America... actually, it's easier to get a weapon in Yliakum.  We've got people running around, brandishing weapons and killing each other.  I'd think the government would have stepped in a long time ago.

How about GM's are out of character and unless in a gm event you are not to see them so no gm would be a rp guard ingame to punish people for rp reasons. [unless i read this thread wrong]

Not GM's... a new class with GM oversight.

[Zan]

Well this is getting off-topic but Yliakum is only like America because many players have that type of attitude .. settingswise I sincerely doubt that it is meant to be this way. I thought this is also what we're trying to fix here .. with all the recent fuss about dueling, etc. Less violence, more government. Up until now the government can only step in if we include it stepping in in our roleplaying though since there is no real government implemented yet.

[Krann Omins]

Up until now the government can only step in if we include it stepping in in our roleplaying though since there is no real government implemented yet.

Which, unless kept completely benign & incredibly vague, could easily fall under what many deem godmodding.

[John80sk]

Well this is getting off-topic but Yliakum is only like America because many players have that type of attitude .. settingswise I sincerely doubt that it is meant to be this way. I thought this is also what we're trying to fix here .. with all the recent fuss about dueling, etc. Less violence, more government. Up until now the government can only step in if we include it stepping in in our roleplaying though since there is no real government implemented yet.

Uh, that would be my point, it doesn't fit the settings.  Something, IMO anyways, should be done.

I figure until there is a real gov system implimented, the dev/gm teams would be in charge of this sort of thing. 

The problem here is people who don't roleplay, or refuse to roleplay in a sensible manner.  When you try to say something to them you'll generally get a fun, but typical 1337 answer.  Then they continue running around, spamming duels and the chat.  This is kinda like forced roleplay, heh.

[Unnamed_Source]

You want an effective guard? Then you need a jail, one that you can't /die or /unstick out of. Then fix the NPCclient run bug. So that it will be a simple mouse run, the guards will just have to tag you and you're off that 6x6x4(build by dwarves) hole in the wall, for a while. Sort of like an in game banning of that character. the more offenses you commit the longer your stay.

[John80sk]

I don't like that idea.  Prison should be more like a labor camp in PS, you would be able to continue learning skills, but ones more oriented to a life of crime.  At the same time though, I think your inventory should be confiscated.

[Zan]

I agree that imprisoning players in a pointless box is not a good way to go .. this is still a game. The suggestion of making the prison level very large and populated by all sorts of shady NPC's is a lot more appealing. Criminal characters could be trying to get thrown in jail on purpose in order to brush up on some skills. There can be some excellent thieves thrown in jail for the rest of their lives.

It could basically be an alternative Death Realm. A whole world on it's own where laws don't count and there should also be some unique ways of getting out of there.

Sentences could consist of hard labour like mining duty. I also agree that all weaponry and possibly other items should definitely be confiscated when you are thrown in jail.

[Narure]

Sentences could consist of hard labour like mining duty.

Makes me laugh that this is seen as a punishment... sit outside the gold mine for a few hours, not many of them will move, and those that do will come back.