PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Noldir on March 01, 2007, 01:53:35 pm
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\\o//
You're the best... Finally a good crafting system.
I think the system as it is now is great and most of all fair. It's nice to know that crafting stats now actually mean something. I hope this means that crafters will finally make some decent living. ;)
All the best to the devs and to the helpful GM's.
Noldir
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Oh, so the crafting system has been changed again?
Could someone summarize the changes for me? I'm not in crafting anymore but very interrested :)
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Since the server has been restarted two things have been fixed.
It is no longer possible to make high quality steel stock by hammering cold stock repeatedly on the anvil. It will need to be reheated and then reworked to remove the impurities. Even then it will take much longer to reach the quality that was reached in a short time before. Or at least that is the plan.
Also, now the effect of skills on quality is more like what we originally planned. We had a problem with a misplaced decimal place. (At least we are not launching satellites.) This means we will need to get some more craft skill trainers out there as soon as we can.
Please let a GM or me know if there are any more shortcuts to grand quality.
Thanks.
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I can see the benefits in changing the crafting system to reflect character skills. But i don't understand why a level 10 in metallurgy needs 2 hours (real time) just to refine steel stocks to an accepteable level. Maybe i'm mistaken but as near as i can tell, lower level metallurgist are fairing no better or worse with the randomness of furnace-refining.
In the real world, steel is tempered using a forge and hammer, not by remelting steel in a furnace. So i'm having trouble following why this change was made. :-\
Also, considering the complicated process involved and the carefull attention to detail required in hardening the steel, can't a summary of the procedure be made available to new-comers in faq or in the crafting section of player manual? Many new-comers don't pay attention to instructions given by either Harnquist or Trasok, unfortunately. Explaning the procedure over tells is quite involved.
Thanks!
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why would you incrase your stock quality in the furnace?
you can aswell use the forge and the anvil, and it's not random :D
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Eila,
Remember that skills can go up to 200 or higher. "Level 10" is really still a beginner in the big scheme of the game, so don't be surprised if things take a long time or are impossible for low level people to do.
- Vengeance
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One of my crafters made a dagger that was just 29/29 last night.
In her words, "Im never crafting again, there's no point cause im not spending 100 hours to mactch what i can get off a rogue in 10 seconds."
I think she's right. Initial quality should be at least 40/40 for a lvl 1 player. Beyond that i do like the graduated system very much. It's very cool, but one thing overlooked, the value of looted iron weapons AUTOMATICALLY caps the value of crafted.
So you can only charge so much for crafted, cause iron is better- and really not that expensive.
I just sold 3x Iron SS yesterday for 90k. Now considering the MASSIVE time involved, selling 3x 300/300 SS for the same price would be a massive money losing proposition.
I suspect time is going to validate my observations.
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Why does it have to stop at 300/300? Skill-wise, the current cap is 20. Seems to me like there's a long way to go with this.
While iron weps may provide a cap/benchmark price (assuming nothing else changes, which is unlilkely) an easy tweak would be to make less iron or superior weapon drops resulting in higher prices which trickles down to crafted weapon prices.
Am I missing something?
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A small suggestion to the smelting process. Have iron ingots be what is combined with coal to make steel. That way you have the option to either make iron stock or continue the process to steel. Also this would be the stage where you would refine the iron(resmelt it) to get a higher grade in steel stock.
This would also help out the starting smith(noobs). where up on they can make iron ingots with out fear that they screwed up and have to mine again to make steel. And in order of the metalurgy skill progression, you should be able to make iron stock before being able to make a steel ingot/stock.
On top of this gold should come first on the smelting learning curve, as its the only major money maker so far, and what most players mine first and keep on mining for revenue. As well as silver, even though it is not mined for money, the ingot/stock versions can be tweeked to give out more than the same amunt of raw product. Last comes iron for the non alloy metals. When you can make iron stock with ease, you can then start to make alloys, first to make steel then other combinations. but atleast you will have the basics like gold, silver, and iron.
On another note, why is it that we can turn blades back into stock but not the handles, we should be able to reheat handles once made too. Also, when converting blades into stock , why does it give only one stock in return? the amout to make the blade is always the same, so why can't that same amount be returned?
In the future will we be allowed to convert items back into the base material, ie steal swords/armor into steel stock?
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Eila,
Remember that skills can go up to 200 or higher. "Level 10" is really still a beginner in the big scheme of the game, so don't be surprised if things take a long time or are impossible for low level people to do.
- Vengeance
Thanks for the usefull feedback.
However, I now realize that you have to be insane to consider crafting to be a viable course for a character in the game.
Its no longer fun - its a full time job with little dividends, if any.
Right now i'm desperately trying to convince myself otherwise since its a great pleasure and a source of immense pride to wield a self-crafted weapon of some respectable quality.
Unfortunately, the astronomical invetsment required and the thin result that is expected makes this quite unrealistic.
Consider that mettallurgy, blacksmith and making skills will each need considerable effort indeed.
I'm very sorry - but the numbers don't add up and the task is absolutely immense.
Eila throws her hammer in the furnace
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I'm sorry that you don't see the point in smithing but, now it will only be those who are really dedicated who will continue on. The blacksmiths will be blacksmiths and not "Hero-warrior-Mage" blacksmiths.
The few who trudge through will be immensly proud of their weapons and, if the 300 cap is removed, will be highly sought after and rich.
I, personaly, love the sound of the new crafting system. Good job devs.
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However, I now realize that you have to be insane to consider crafting to be a viable course for a character in the game.
It's not viable to be a musician or an artist either but people still do it.
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sorry ... but Nurahk is at 178 % correct !
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sorry ... but Nurahk is at 178 % correct !
More like 179% ;D
I personally welcome, that the crafting has become way more difficult. This will prevent the "crafting-noobs" from flooding the market with best Q weapons, and yet, most of the people, who see themselves as crafters mainly. So, self crafted weapons with high Q will raise in their value enormly (at least I hope so ;))
But if, my crafting skills are rather pityful yet, so i cant really tell, but IF the new crafting system builds on the skills, linked to crafting, like metallurgy, blacksmithing, and the specific weapon making skill, what is wrong with that? There was no point to train these skills higher than neccessary before, due to the possibility, to make the highest Q weapons with lvl 0 in the weapon making skill.
But of course, the new system is REALLY tough to manage, so I can understand, that some people are disappointed about right now, since it is sooo much harder. But like with all the other skills, time will tell :)
If you want to be a crafter, train your skills. Those who really want, dont care about the time or tria involved to become a master crafter, and hey, some day you will be recommended by someone as one of the best, if not THE best crafter in all of Yliakum ;)
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I wouldn't say there couldn't be warrior hero mage blacksmiths. Over time you may have people who feel they have exhausted some other aspects of life and take an interest in blacksmithing but they will be few and far between.
I think one real issue in getting people interested in starting in crafting and staying in crafting is the issue of progression points. You can spend days mining and crafting to end up with 50 progression points and meanwhile the warrior has acumulated 5000. Give some more progression points if you want to encourage people.
Also, if I know I can't progress very far as there are no higher level trainers, why would I get started? Please add some higher level training so that those who want to become a master craftsman can do so.
I do agree that in the long run many people will not put the effort in to all that traiining. But, I hear the same complaints about higher levels of sword, that people say they will never train that high as it is too expensive and time consuming. That's fine, there will always be a few who will strive to reach those high levels. That's what being a master in anything is all about.
And about making it viable? Maybe have an overnight drop in the quality of silverweave weapons. :devil:
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I'm happy to see this change, hopefully it'll bump up the prices of crafted weapons. :thumbup:
EDIT: Would be nice if it weren't so hard to train blacksmith though :-\
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Finally got round to testing the change in the crafting system and I fully understand Eila's points on how much more difficult it has become. However, I do realize that it is desirable to make the crafting of high quality weapons and items difficult to avoid swamping the markets.
Nonetheless, I have just one query for the Dev team. Are there further planned changes that will make it possible for a player to have a pure craftsman character? A character that does not need to learn combat, magic, mining or metallurgy skills to be a pure craftsman? This would apply to future crafts to be introduced as well.
By changes, I specifically mean changes that will allow a budding craftsman to buy materials either from the market or NPCs and produce a saleable product at a profit at all levels.
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I keep hearing everyones complaints but see no ground in it. Come on now folks. This is one of the best changes I have seen yet. In order to become a master crafter it takes alot of practice in real life. Alot!!!! So why should some one step in after an hour or even 20 hours and be able to make a 300 quality weapon. I believe that is for people who want to specialize. This makes that possable. As well it will help the pricing of weapons in the future. Great Job Team!!!!
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Surely nobody thought it would stay easy like that forever...?
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I couldn't agree more with joshua6021...
In real world, warriors usually didn't make weapons for themselfs(knights, paladins,samurais,...), that was the job of people called blacksmiths. Mainly that is because warriors spend most of their life training combat, while blacksmiths were working with metals for their whole lifes. So if a warrior would just go and try to make himself a weapon, he would probablay make a really bad weapon if he'd made one at all. So if this games tries to reflect the real world, this is the way to go.
It would be nice if you got Progression points with doing all of this, but I guess it will be possible in the future. :beta:
With this system we are just one step closer to what this game is going to be. An realistic imitation of an medivial world.
P.S.:I myself have no problems with crafting bad weapons... I spent many hours training to get my blacksmithing to 11 and the best weapon I made was an 81/81 dagger, and when I had 10, best weapon was 72/72, but you don't see me complaining. I enjoy to see, that all my hard work actually has some resaults, not just 300/300 right away.
:)
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Surely nobody thought it would stay easy like that forever...?
I know, I don't see why people moan. It now takes alot of practice to become a skilled crafter, finally bringing meaning to the levels.
I once had to sell 50 daggers over quality which is 2500 ore, you didn't see me moaning. :P
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What I'm really wondering is ... are these 300 quality swords and daggers really so good or are they just decent smithing work? I expect much better and fancier weapons being craftable in the future.
I do agree with the more XP from crafting and mining .. a crafter or miner should have an equal experience income than a fighter.
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What I'm really wondering is ... are these 300 quality swords and daggers really so good or are they just decent smithing work? I expect much better and fancier weapons being craftable in the future.
I do agree with the more XP from crafting and mining .. a crafter or miner should have an equal experience income than a fighter.
Maybe it's the best we can make with just steel.
Perhaps zinc-steel alloys are more powerful in Yliakum, or maybe we'll be able to mine Silverweave Ore - or some other new crafting materials - later on, to make more powerful 300/300 weapons...
Also, I agree about the XP thing.
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I still don't get what PP are... what possible IC explanation is there?
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I still don't get what PP are... what possible IC explanation is there?
Nope, it's 100% OOC and a inheritage from MMO"RP"Gs that hopefully will be removed when PS reaches version 1.0
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It would be nice if we were given an explanation of what effects the quality of stock though... does metallurgy help at all? Does your skill in weapon making effect the final quality? Don't think this would be considered a spoiler, as I'd at least think that in the end they're all supposed to affect it.
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I still don't get what PP are... what possible IC explanation is there?
Its a substitution for classes and levels. notice how you don't see people bragging about their lvl 45 dwarven crusader or lvl 85 Kran warlock. there is no class and level but subsequently there is a need to gain skills and hone them. hence we have experience, not to level(cause we have no levels) but to train in skills. Partly because classes and levels gave an order to when the skills could be learnt. with PS, Its an open system where you can learn anything at any time and excel in it at your own pace. Since experience has been used in other MMO's effectively and no other reasonable alternative has been suggested, PS uses experience as a way to increase our skills or gain new ones. Now experience alone can't do it, you need a milestone of sorts. Traditionally that milestone was when you leveled but since we have no levels here, that milestone comes in the form of Practice Points, other wise know and PP.
Now along with PP what possible explanation to skill levels is there? If you got rid of skill levels, how could you define between a noob making a sword and a player of 7 years or a new character vs a veteran. For crafting, recipes but those can be taken OOC and posted on the web or just used cross character which is all OOC.
If you leave the skill levels, how are you going to level them with out PP? Just through practice come to mind, we can get rid of trainers and just allow people to pick up any skill at level 0 and start working on it. Like in Real Life, even if you don't learn it in school, though practice you'll eventually learn and master what ever you are doing. That's how you get multimillionaires with 8th grade educations.)
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Also, if I know I can't progress very far as there are no higher level trainers, why would I get started? Please add some higher level training so that those who want to become a master craftsman can do so.
I hope you will see them soon.
Nonetheless, I have just one query for the Dev team. Are there further planned changes that will make it possible for a player to have a pure craftsman character? A character that does not need to learn combat, magic, mining or metallurgy skills to be a pure craftsman? This would apply to future crafts to be introduced as well.
No changes are planned since it is possible now. And we will continue to everything to encourage it.
To the blacksmiths, I would suggest focusing on just the blacksmith skill and the related specialty skills. All other skills have no effect on your craft. Find a player willing to sell you high quality stock. To those who want to make some good money find yourself a blacksmith or two and get your metallurgy skill to the point that you can supply them the raw materials that they need.
By changes, I specifically mean changes that will allow a budding craftsman to buy materials either from the market or NPCs and produce a saleable product at a profit at all levels.
The price of raw materials and the time it takes to create items are all carefully measured. But until the economy is working better it does not make sense to focus on getting that balanced any more then it already is.
It would be nice if we were given an explanation of what effects the quality of stock though... does metallurgy help at all? Does your skill in weapon making effect the final quality? Don't think this would be considered a spoiler, as I'd at least think that in the end they're all supposed to affect it.
As any experienced blacksmith will tell you the quality of the raw material has everything to do with the quality of the resulting craft. In some cases it might have more affect then the skill of the crafter.
Besides the occasional inspirational craft as well as the inevitable blunder, on any given day the highest skilled craftsman can create items that are double the quality of the raw material during very specific skill related steps in the process; such as the shaping of the blade or the final cast of the stock. For complicated items there may be even two or three of these critical steps.
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...so that's a yes on all skills currently affect the quality of the final weapon?
EDIT: A minor suggestion, perhaps heating stock could improve blacksmith as well, as it takes days to train these supposedly lower levels of blacksmith.
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...so that's a yes on all skills currently affect the quality of the final weapon?
Only blacksmith and swordmaking are checked to determine quality when making a sword. Metallurgy skills contribute to quality of stock. Quality of stock contributes to quality of weapon. Different skills different jobs.
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Thank you TomT for your response.
It is good to know that a pure craftsman is a targeted goal. However, I would beg to differ on one point and say that it is currently NOT possible to have a pure craftsman character in the game in its current state basically because crafting earns no PP and what a beginner crafter could earn from his sales to Harnquist would not cover the cost of materials unless the market price of iron ore drops drastically (in which case the supply of ore will dwindle tremendously).
Possibly a typo?
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...so that's a yes on all skills currently affect the quality of the final weapon?
Only blacksmith and swordmaking are checked to determine quality when making a sword. Metallurgy skills contribute to quality of stock. Quality of stock contributes to quality of weapon. Different skills different jobs.
well, as far as I can see by now, it is not only metallurgy but also blacksmith that is needed for raising the quality of steel-stock ... please correct me if this is wrong ...
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Well, here's what I've found with the new system:
All three skills involved do effect the product quality, metallurgy raises the quality of stock, blacksmith allows you to make higher quality parts, and sword/dagger making makes a higher quality weapon.
Something to note though is that if you have a really high blacksmith skill, and a low weapon making skill, you probably won't have a good final product. Same thing with a high metallurgy and a low blacksmith level.
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but you shipped fairly around my question ...
raising steel quality !
you can only raise the quality (made with top metallurgy level) if you have an blacksmith level above 10 ... that's what I've seen so far
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My blacksmith level is 10 right now, so I'm not 100% sure about that (I'll get back to you soon). However, I can tell you that with lvl 9 blacksmith, my quality generally went down hammering stock made at lvl 9 metallurgy.
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Only metallurgy skill level affects the quality during stock working. Only blacksmith and sword making skill level affect the quality of the swords.
The quality of the tools and equipment are currently not a factor.
All skill steps give progression points, abet very little at this time.
Sorry, the randomness may make it seem otherwise.
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Only metallurgy skill level affects the quality during stock working. Only blacksmith and sword making skill level affect the quality of the swords.
Blacksmith doesn't really effect the quality of the sword, I had two 200 quality parts and it made an 80 quality blade. Although I assume it helps to have higher quality parts to make a higher quality blade when your sword making skill allows for it.
All skill steps give progression points, abet very little at this time.
making stock doesn't give pp, making parts doesn't give pp, and finally, making the weapon doesn't give pp.
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Think TomT means practice points and not progression points.
If he did mean progression points, then I now understand why he said it is possible to have a pure craftsman character now (or at least that how I interpreted what he said in his earlier post).
For the record, John80sk is correct - you do NOT get progression points when using those skills only practice points.
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so this...
My blacksmith level is 10 right now, so I'm not 100% sure about that (I'll get back to you soon). However, I can tell you that with lvl 9 blacksmith, my quality generally went down hammering stock made at lvl 9 metallurgy.
and that...
Only metallurgy skill level affects the quality during stock working. Only blacksmith and sword making skill level affect the quality of the swords.
in fact means it is not possible to raise steel quality with an metallurgy level of 10 ... and it doesn't help to hammer like mad.
makes no sense ... but ... ah ...
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What doesn't make sense?
Sometime in the future new trainers will be added, so:
- metallurgy will go higher then 10, thus you will be able to make better steels stocks...
- blacksmithing ... you will get better weapon parts
- item making(sword,knife,shield) ... you will make better weapons.
It all makes perfect sense... When the time is right and the new trainers are made you will be able to make 300/300 again :)
But until it does, we will just have to do with the current skills. I think it's nice that if you want something, you must work hard for it. That is just how life is ;)
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Well, I suppose my 80-100 quality blades to make good gifts for newbies :)
My main problem is that it is impossible to be a smith in game without being a miner, metallurgist and warrior as well. Simply because with gold being worth 240 tria and gold ignots being worth 608 tria (which also bumps up the worth of gold ore) gives players no reason to work for a smith. Not to mention it's impossible to sell a crafted weapon with the abundance of iron and sw weapons.
A lot of people aren't gonna like me saying this, but methinks we need a complete inventory wipe along with the removal of iron and sw weapons until somebody can figure out what the proper slash values for them should be.
I'd also say gold should be made less valueable, but training made cheaper. Buying a sword in the medieval days was like buying a car today, it seems kinda strange to me that training is so expensive, but weapons are a dime a dozen.
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My main problem is that it is impossible to be a smith in game without being a miner, metallurgist and warrior as well. Simply because with gold being worth 240 tria and gold ignots being worth 608 tria (which also bumps up the worth of gold ore) gives players no reason to work for a smith. Not to mention it's impossible to sell a crafted weapon with the abundance of iron and sw weapons.
Well, there is a way ... I've seen some people tryin' it ... just pay 250 - 300 Tria for iron and coal and you will have your miners ... but ... this makes a steel stock worth 2.5k - 3k Tria (without calculating the work) ... and what this would mean for the price of crafted weapon you will easily find out.
The other thing is ... I'm working on metallurgy, blacksmithing and knife making at the moment ... and guess what I will have to do tomorrow ...
I'm going to meet the Brigand to make the missing PP for my crafting training ... I leave this uncommented ... because if this isn't OOC for a crafter what else is ?
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The problem is there is no demand for crafted weapons. The end of the line of production is useless.
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The problem is there is no demand for crafted weapons. The end of the line of production is useless.
Sure .. you're right !
The problem has to be solved in another way ... there has to develop a need for the products first, then it will possibly regulate itself.
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A lot of people aren't gonna like me saying this, but methinks we need a complete inventory wipe along with the removal of iron and sw weapons until somebody can figure out what the proper slash values for them should be.
I agree that in the long run they will need to either reduce the / value on iron and silverweave weapons or just make them no longer able to be looted. If not, no matter how much they talk about taking up crafting, no one will want to invest the tremendous amount of time it takes to master swordmaking.
The current gold rush economy we have means that there is no interest in working in an infrastructure that would support the craftsman. The only infrastructure there appears to be is people mining gold and selling it for a higher price than Harnquist will pay to those who can make ingots. It appears right now that crafting gold ingots is the only viable craft.
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how long have there been complaints about the gold-price and it's destroying the economy?
Instead of reducing it, gold was made even more valuable due to the possibility of making ingots and selling them at more than double an ore is worth.
Miners are selling ore to crafters at 300 Tria (!) - If this will stay it is completely impossible to earn money with selfcrafted weapon if you want to do it an ecological way and employ miners ...
I'm sorry, but this was the absolutely WRONG way.
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This 'gold rush' will probably die down soon. Its just that the skill is new and there are few players able to make the ingots (is this new to the game? I couldnt do it a lvl 10 metallurgy last week)
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mrmph, well, one thing I admit it has done is caused players to work together, something that I haven't seen them do using the game mechanics in a long time. Would be nice if we could actually make useable items worth the time and effort put into their creation though.
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sorry, this gold-rush will NEVER die down ...
It is and it was always the fastest way to make money and if you watch the gold mine you will see the most heroic warriors using a pick to earn money ...
But what I want to say:
First of all: The crafting system is now in an excellent condition. The way of making experience in the different skills is absolutely traceable.
So thank you Dev's for that !
But the way to make a selfcrafted highquality weapon should be as follows:
Master miners dig the ore and the coal and sell them to metallurgists
Master metallurgists make highquality steel of it and sell it to the blacksmiths
Master blacksmiths take the steel and make highquality weapons of it.
As long as you can earn unbelievable amounts of money by just getting it out of the ground and sell it to an NPC at 240 Tria (which is a very good price) or even find players and sell it for 300 Tria (wich is an astronomic price) there is just no way to sell a handcrafted weapon at is real worth.
And you will never find a miner, digging ore for you !
And due to that there is no way to earn money with crafting weapon.
The result is ... a blacksmith standing in front of you saying (and trying to stay IC) - "Well, I have to do further training for my blacksmithing but I ran out of money. I think I will take a day at the gold mine."
or even worse: "My blacksmith training got stuck because I ran out of xxxxxxxxx (whatever you roleplay PP) I will take a journey to the outlands and kill some bad people to make more training possible."
What am I up to say, again ?
Gold price - DOWN
Crafting - must give PP (what about an NPC taking steel stock for example and paying you in PP instead of Tria ? (depending on quality and players skill))
thanks for reading ...
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And you will never find a miner, digging ore for you !
I spent several hours last week trying to actually sell some iron ore and coal, but no-one was interested in the raw products. I spent a long time mining it and there was no market when it came time to sell (not to mention some guy constantly undercutting my price and making it uneconomical to mine the products, it would be more cost effective to mine gold). The only thing I could sell was steel stock but I only managed to sell a few of those.
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I cant see why the current goldrush should be so bad at all. It is a good way to earn money, for the (yet) few who have spent time, tria and nerves (lost by trying to manage to work with 8 stock at a time to PL the metallurgy skill \\o//), aswell as for the miners, who get mostly 50% of the final products value. So, the people are filling their purse up, which means, more money to spend (like on weapons). Why is this bad?
Yes, I do understand why the weapon crafters are complaining about it. Other people are making the big money, while they are spending their time at the anvil, trying to build up their crafting skills and producing a not too bad weapon, which wont sell for much, if they sell at all. But this is nothing, that should worry you. Once you can make the real good stuff by crafting, the high-skilled metallurgists will take a jealous look over to the anvil and curse themselves, not to have levelled their other crafting skills.
So, currently there are 3 points, that should be changed, in order to make the crafters happy :)
1. Fix the repair bugs (all I need is 2 of the same weapons to repair them almost back to max Q, like 2 sw ss or 2 ss of the same crafter, and I wont need any new swords anymore)
2. Lower the slash on the existing weapons or make them really, REALLY rare to be looted. (like the iron heavy dagger ;)) Self crafted weapons HAVE to have a higher value, than they have currently.
3. Implement new kinds of weapons, a crafter can actually make. like a higher slash weapon or other boni, like STR +10 STR for example.
[as suggested here: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27989.0 ]
Ill await this to be done soon(tm)... :oops: ;D
@all crafters: the time has come, where the citizens of Yliakum are wealthy again, or on the way to it. So raise the prizes for your products, even if it mean less sales for you. The price dumping has to come to an end. The effect of the mini wipe, which has lead to the price dumping, is faded :)
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i see there is a concern about ore not worth selling to players.
- make the picks decay while using (successful or not)
- set the NPC price of ores at a level that let's say guy with 20 rank will be hardly (but still) able to earn some profit from mining wile selling it to NPC. Player character will obviously give more than NPC. That way people will mine as much as the market needs.
- Because of the fact, that we both don't want the pick decay too fast and have the NPC prices of ores somewhat normal.... (they can't be 1.5, so 1 or 2, only thats a big difference) Maybe miner should eat? The more he mine, the more he eat and the food cost too.
Thank you
Of course there is more balancing/remaking in other areas of the game and with them being flawed, it is possible the above idea won't work as expected. But you have to start from something.
Oh, and for these who say NPCs should have higher prices. I gues because you want the NPC to be believble, each have their life and that they build thing too.... need ore and stuff... You then ask why they would but the Ore at so low price? Because they know that a trained miners will sell them the ore, because it may be profitable for trained miners. Also, you may expect many lazy people, who will sell the ore to NPCs even if they loose money because of that ;) Lazy, because they won't wait a bit on the plaza for the buyer ;)
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One thing that might help would be to make gold much harder to mine. For some reason, items that are needed for weapons crafting, like coal, take a lot of time to dig.
I could see keeping gold at a higher value than coal but in terms of effort spent, coal is a multiple of times harder to mine.
Either that or have Harnquist willing to buy coal for 500 trias.
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I still say this is easily solved by reducing the rediculous amount of iron needed to make a single steel stock...
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Didn't gold get harder to mine recently? Hmmm.... :-)
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Gold price - DOWN [/u]
It's not just as easy as that, because gold is the main way new money enters the economy. Drop the gold price, and training will take more trias out then is coming in, causing a crash in prices due to lack of money. Nobody having any money is just as bad, if not worse, then lots of people having lots of money. One is inflation, the other is deflation, both cause extremes.
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The lack of PP is one of the contributers that make crafting not a worth while possibility. Having to turn your attention to killing NPC's to level makes dedicated Miners, Smelters, and Smiths not doable in the constrains of real life. At higher levels the amount of PP needed to fill in the red bar vs the amount of PP gained by just the practice from the last lvl is nowhere near the same. And thus you will never see dedicated crafters cause they will always need to gain PP else where.
The lack of storage is another facter. Because dedicated crafters are spending time away from their posts gaining xp to train their perspective skill, you will not see a trade of goods from one crafter to the other, Lets not even equate real lif into this, just the fact that I need to leave the forge area in order to level my skill(ie kill NPCs) I will miss whom ever is coming around selling stock. Like wise the weight factors in, I can mine 2-3 stocks worths of iron and coal before I need to smelt or drop them. Now If i cannot find a runner, I have to take them to the smelter myself and if I'm going to do that I might as well smelt them myself, cutting out a middle man and gaining practice in metalurgy, Now I might or might not find someone to buy the stock right ther and then. But thankfully I can go back and mine some more since the stock weight s fraction of the raw material. But eventually I too will be bogged down by the wieght of the stock and I will not be able to mine any more. I can sell the stock or I can craft with it. More than likely I will craft since I will not likely find any PC to buy it . Even if the end result is a terrible blade, slowly but surely I will get better, right after I go kill a few hundred monsters that is. If we had storage, I could then mine an/or smelt and stow it away till that blue moon rises and the PC buyers come back from the hunt. As of now I am limited by my weight carrying capacity. Also, the use of mules is not an excersise that everyone can do, whether it is to have a second client running or the very risky drop/quit/relog. Mules are not the solution for most solo players.
The problem is not the price of gold or lack there of. Buy devaluating the price of gold you will only make the problem worse. More time will then be needed to dig gold to then use to train in skills. Cause what other reason is there for tria, than to train? If you think the mine area is crowded, just wait till the price drops. Now if you figure in that the time it take to mine a chunk of gold is woth 240 tria. Surely you could say the same for any other mined item, even if the NPS is not willing to give you that. Since it is not attained anywhere else but through mining, The price for the time would be reasonably the same. But you also have to factor in the weight, all the metal chunks weight the same, so figure in that you can spend 15 minuts mining gold or iron the price will be the same since your have a full capacity but the same number of each. wherr ase Coaland the other non metals take lees weight and there for mining them will take longer to fill your carrying weight, you will gain 3+ times the amount. So in turn I would charge by the weight rather than the time. Now if some joker under bids, then let him sell his time away for nothing and eventually the price will steady it self as the rumer spreads that one iron = one gold(= 3 coal weight wise)
Now, as stated above, with the lack of a viable storage you will not get far in mining iron solo before you reach your limit. With the lack of a quick sale, what are you going to do? Team up! Guild up a few fellow miners, with each making a mule or two, Each mule carring its max, you can Run the mules to the smelter and wait for a perspective smelter to buy your ore or smelt the stuff yourself, each pair of miners taking from his partners mule till its emptied out then vis versa. Buy this stage you should be able to mine some more or hopefully find some smelter to take your stock. Rinse and Repeat till your mules and main characters are all full then each can practice smithing if that buyer was ano show. Don't like to group? Welcome to the club, I am the grand Puba, we meet every 3rd thursday, and its ByoB.
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You make a number of good points Unamed.
Having to take breaks on occasion to go kill as many NPC's as you can to gain pp does make it hard to stay consistently with crafting. And if you are on your own, all the time you spend away from the forge means less practice in your craft or missing out on a sale. It would be great to see more experience points awarded for blacksmith or weapons making. I don't think you will have people jumping on the crafting bandwagon just for the experience points.
I'm sure that there are plenty of economic arguments on either side as to what the availability and price of gold should be. In the long term, however, we need to have mining iron, coal and making steel stock be profitable enough to the individual without breaking the crafter. As long as gold is as available as iron or even close to as available, no one will want to mine for you. Gold ore tends to sell for 450 trias apiece. No crafter can attempt to match that for iron ore unless they can sell a weapon for a very high price.
Learning crafting is a very time consuming venture on it's own. In that regard, having readily available gold that the crafter can earn tria on becomes very attractive while they are learning their craft. Unless you started with a big bankroll you can't afford to hire miners and your weapons won't sell for much as they are not that good. Maybe there are some guilds with money they would be willing to loan or invest in you. Or, there are some crafting guilds that might be interested in contracting with you to mine for them to earn some tria to fund your learning your craft.
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One thing I think many people miss is that it was not entirely uncommon in the medieval period for young men to enter the army when young and gadabout the countryside, participating in battles getting loot and then retiring to a different kind of life if they lived long enough. This would be akin to going out, training (fighting whatever) until you have mastered a weapon and an armor type and then taking up crafting. I guarantee if you do this you will have plenty of spare pp's maxed stats and carrying capacity and the basis for claiming you know what a good weapon really is. I would be really surprised to discover a weapon smith in such a time period who made any quality weapon whose use he was not proficient with. It would be all too easy to get the balance wrong or too much play in the steel or whatever. My problem with the crafting comes from what happens to the scrap? For example last night I took 4 stock and made an alpha blade whose quality was rather poor. I heated it up and started to hammer it some more and it turned into one stock. So where are the three stocks worth of scrap metal I should be able to recast? Usable metal would not be so dear if it did not disappear so easily. I'm not saying there should be no loss of raw materials but 75% is a little extreme. I also am not saying a master smith could not make good weapons he did not know how to use just that they would be better if he did. Perhaps some amount of skill in the relevant weapon could add to the making as a bonus factor.
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I like the new crafting system. It's more realistic. You can't study crafting for an hour and make master weapons. I do have a small gripe with megulargy though. After spending a half hour at the iron mine filling up my sacks, I make my way back to Harni. I melt them, and make them into stocks. I don't have a lot of strength, so I usually make only one stock a run. On average, that takes me 45 minutes. one stock. that makes [ ] that much megullargy practical training. So it takes about 5 hours for me to get from zero to one? How about from one to 2? I really think that will just take to long. Making it to 200 in megullargy, sword crafting, axe, shield, blacksmithing.... Does this seem like a lot to anyone else? i order to make your own stuff, you need 1000 progression points to be a master crafter. and weapon repair and armor repair are good skills for any blacksmith. And some crafters might want to mine their own stuff. Never mind strength training to carry all your books, tools, diagrams, ect. So, in order to be a "master" you need around 2k prog. points. And with the difficulty to earn progression points in crafting, and megulargy.... I just don't think it's quite possible. What I think the fix should be is having level 200's making insane weapons, that cannot be looted. A person with level 10 in megullagy, some kind of weapon crafting, blacksmithing, ect., should be able to make decent weapons. Its not fair that the people who want to learn a profession need to spend hours upon hours training to make the same weapon a person with a level 2 axe skill can loot off of a rogue. There should definitely be benifits for those who chose to learn something rather than hack and slash their way to decent items.
Another thing the crafting system needs is more quests. It seems that I did three crafting related quests for harni, and now all he needs from me is gold ore. And the smith in Ojaveda gives the same quests. Maybe if you did a really hard quest you would gain a whole skill level in a certain area? Or just more quests to give you more, maybe easier diagrams. I still can't make a sword.....
Thats just the opinion of a frustrated crafter-in-training. Sorry I think I misspelled megulargy every time I used it, but it's not part of firefox's spell-check.
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I agree, I'll probably die of old age in RL before I ever get to level 200 in sword making so I do hope that there are special weapons that can be made at the higher levels.
As Bilbous mentioned, someone wanting to take up crafting might want to first spend time playing the warrior to level up the skills needed to carry the ore or spend hours pounding on an anvil. This also gives them an opportunity to gather progression points and a bank account to fund the training.
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I do that kind of thing with mining. I got a lot of prog. points mining gold.
Maybe someone could implement an ore-cart. Like a hand-drawn cart that lets you carry massive amounts of ore. The training would be less mind numbing if I didn'y have to make that same walk every single time I make a stock.
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... My problem with the crafting comes from what happens to the scrap? For example last night I took 4 stock and made an alpha blade whose quality was rather poor. I heated it up and started to hammer it some more and it turned into one stock. So where are the three stocks worth of scrap metal I should be able to recast? Usable metal would not be so dear if it did not disappear so easily. I'm not saying there should be no loss of raw materials but 75% is a little extreme ...
On another note, why is it that we can turn blades back into stock but not the handles, we should be able to reheat handles once made too. Also, when converting blades into stock , why does it give only one stock in return? the amout to make the blade is always the same, so why can't that same amount be returned?
Try making a long sword, it takes 8 stock for just the blade and in one fell swoop you'll end up with one.
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Hehheh I had 7 I was working and it wasn't doing much so I started working a lesser amount. It was getting me practice though, I think. I was a bit surprised when it turned into an alpha blade because I didn't get the stock red-hot. I was really just trying to improve my stock while practicing.
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... My problem with the crafting comes from what happens to the scrap? For example last night I took 4 stock and made an alpha blade whose quality was rather poor. I heated it up and started to hammer it some more and it turned into one stock. So where are the three stocks worth of scrap metal I should be able to recast? Usable metal would not be so dear if it did not disappear so easily. I'm not saying there should be no loss of raw materials but 75% is a little extreme ...
On another note, why is it that we can turn blades back into stock but not the handles, we should be able to reheat handles once made too. Also, when converting blades into stock , why does it give only one stock in return? the amout to make the blade is always the same, so why can't that same amount be returned?
Try making a long sword, it takes 8 stock for just the blade and in one fell swoop you'll end up with one.
my bad :)
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Since mining is tied up with crafting I though I'd mention that I think the same spot restriction ought to have a time limit on it. I went away sat on the ground while I went afk to the store came back10-15 minutes later and tried to dig in the same spot accidentally. It is probably more trouble to change it that it is worth but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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Ok when I can get the data updated, the handle will be like other sword parts and you will be able to recover 100% of stock when you rework sword like items.
I can reduce this so that you get one less stock back going from blade to stock if you think that would be better - let me know what you think. Thanks.
bilbous
Moving the dig spot is just to make the botting harder giving it a timeout whould just complicate it unless really needed.
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I can reduce this so that you get one less stock back going from blade to stock if you think that would be better - let me know what you think. Thanks.
I think that's a good idea. It would be better though if you could recover percentage part of all the stock (i gues with rounding up and down, or maybe only up ?), which was used to make that blade.
Maybe later we will have stocks of different size, so that the percentage loss rounding, while recovering stock, won't be that big.
I don't really craft, but it is what i heard and what i propose there:
I heard it's like you have use loads of stock to make for example sort sword. Much more than it would look like the sword needs. As the skill increase, you need less stock. This brought me to a conclusion, that you can fail in forming the flade from the stock and so it's wasted. What about this then:
A single sword won't consume the whole stock, with which you also failed. A sword is made basically of one stock or few if the blade is long. So you take these stock, work on them and then basing on skill we have failed attempt ( realy really bad quality sword ) or successful (high enough quality to be considered goodd blade). In case of the failed attempt, sure you can try to sell the sword, but truth is noboby will give more for it (if ive anything), than you would earn, if you turned the crap you made into stock again. Of course there is the percentage loss and you need coal to cause heat, o it isn't perpetum mobile.
It doesn't sond right, that you need like 20 stocks to make a sword and the more you use, the higher the quality will be.
Now again, i'm not sure how it is in game. You must know it for sure, so you know what to do with my reply ;)
Hope you like it and thanx for asking us about the first thing ;)
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Thanks Tom, I kind of figured that. As far as stock loss goes I think 5-10% percent would be good but I don't think leftovers should be in stock form. I think it should be some intermediate form akin to sludge which needs processing to be reused. Perhaps you could adapt it or the dust models to be steel scrap or some such. Not right away if you have more important things to do but I think ultimately that would be the way to go. Just my thought anyway.
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Hello! Can you make a shield with gold stocks allready (has it been implemented yet?), cuz i tried with multiple different shield shapes, but couldn't combine it with a handle. Is it doable, so i will try harder or won't waste time on it :)
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I really like the crafting system so far. I have only a couple of suggestions that I think would help....
1. There needs to somehow be a market for crafted weapons. Even a relatively low skilled crafter should be able to sell his weapons for some kind of profit. To do this, maybe the crafted weapons could be more resistant to wear and tear, in addition to more damage capacity than the basic items Harnquist sells. Also, so long as high quality weapons are so readily available from rogues and such, there will be no demand for crafted weapons. A simple solution would be to stop giving special weapons as loot, and simply replace them with jewelry or gemstones of value. It seems reasonable that scoundrels would be carrying such things, and to get a decent sword, an instant market would be created for us craftsmen. Special weapons should be obtained through quests, to keep them in the game.
2. The ability to make weapons out of iron, bronze, silver and such would be a great way to show progress as a crafter advances in his or her skills. Also, certain monsters could be vulnerable or invulnerable to certain materials...imagine a characters shock when he realizes that this new Trepor can only be harmed by silver weapons! ( No wolfman required) "Excuse me, how much for a silver sword so I can complete my quest?"