PlaneShift
Support => Forum and Website Discussions => Topic started by: zanzibar on March 05, 2007, 01:05:07 am
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Let's say that someone posts an off-topic or mostly off-topic question in a thread you start. You then do that person a favour by answering his question.
Should you be punished for answering his question?
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Depends on how long the off-topic tangent becomes.
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So if it adds up to only a couple of posts, then no harm is done?
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I'd say so :]
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It would seem to me that it would also depend how far off-topic it was. If it is a reasonable tangent which is obviously related to the subject at hand it can be better tolerated than something completely unrelated.
For example if the original post is asking for a recipe for chocolate chip cookies and two or three have already been posted I would think it fair if someone posted a recipe for ginger snaps and someone else posted a recipe for peanut butter cookies.
To continue the example I would think that any discussion of browser cookies should be frowned upon except in the case of a warning about a website linked that has cookie recipes which also has browser cookies of dubious intent.
In any event I would think that any complaining about off-topic posts should be via the Report to moderator link and not within the thread itself as they are the ones who ultimately must make a ruling and compounding the problem by commenting in the thread does not help much.
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Definitively not in "Hydlaa Plaza" unless the creator of the thread explicitly asked for a stricter enforcement of on-topicness.
Also as long as it does not disrupt badly the thread, it should not face harsh measures.
Finally if someone is responding to an off topic post, I would say part of the responsability for it falls indirectly on the one who made the first off topic post(Although I don't see a little of offtopicness as bad, as long as it doesn't become a 10 pages long off topic discussion or something like that).
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So we all agree that banning someone for a day if they answer an off-topic question is a little ridiculous?
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I think it is not that cut and dried and the person's posting habits as well as the type of response will always color any enforcement. So no, I do not agree with that without qualification.
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I think it is not that cut and dried and the person's posting habits as well as the type of response will always color any enforcement. So no, I do not agree with that without qualification.
Yes, bias always plays a part.:)
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I think it is not that cut and dried and the person's posting habits as well as the type of response will always color any enforcement. So no, I do not agree with that without qualification.
Yes, bias always plays a part.:)
I don't think that is fair Zanzibar. The fact is that normally it wouldn't be enough of a reason, but that is something else then saying it is the wrong measure at all times. If the person in question for example has been warned several times it's a completely different scenario.
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I don't think that is fair Zanzibar. The fact is that normally it wouldn't be enough of a reason, but that is something else then saying it is the wrong measure at all times. If the person in question for example has been warned several times it's a completely different scenario.
Perhaps. But if the person has never been warned, then this line of discussion is irrelevant.:)
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I think that the forum should have something along the lines of the NHL's instigator penalty so that not only do the participants who are subjected to 1-day penalty suffer it but the person who started the qualifying exchange gets an additional day where it can be unequivocally determined.
As far as bias is concerned that is not at all what I meant but is unavoidable as the moderators are human. They do a good job from what I can tell anyway. What I was suggesting was that the straw that broke the camel's back would not have done so if it had been the only load placed on the beast.
Now I realize that your premise suggests an isolated incident: 1 OT reply = ban; but I know of no cases where anyone was banned for their very first OT comment unless there was some other more important breach of forum policy that took precedence so I am speaking to the larger issue.
The Moderators do not owe us an explanation of their enforcement measures, that they do so is a courtesy granted.
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I actually don't know of anyone being banned from this forum.
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Not exactly sure why you are asking the question then. If in your view banning isn't even used as a punishment why discus if banning is an appropriate punishment in a single hypothetical case? Something we will have little say in anyhow.
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I actually don't know of anyone being banned from this forum.
I do.
Not exactly sure why you are asking the question then. If in your view banning isn't even used as a punishment why discus if banning is an appropriate punishment in a single hypothetical case? Something we will have little say in anyhow.
Obviously it came up. Zanzibar isn't one to just pull random things out of his arse, right? :P
Personally I think the punishment should be contingent on the situation. For example, if one was to go about digging up 2-year-old threads just to prove a point - completely against forum policy - they should be punished regardless of whether the thread goes 'mostly' off-topic. Just a random example of course...
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Emeraldfool
Did you read what Zanzibar actually said in the post you quoted? Zanzibar also made a point to say there would be no warnings in such a case. I personally don't see it come up if it was not a ban or a warning.
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In the case Zanz is referring to, the person in question has been warned of his behavior, argumentativeness and posting habits on numerous occasions and several people have *begged* me to ban this person. Nothing that happens to this person will be a surprise, only the timing of it, given how long this person has skated by without getting banned.
Also, I don't see a one-day ban as a punishment per se, but as a way of keeping arguments from escalating and keeping the forums from getting overly polluted.
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In the case Zanz is referring to, the person in question has been warned of his behavior, argumentativeness and posting habits on numerous occasions and several people have *begged* me to ban this person.
Uh, you're not talking about me are you, 'cause I can totally explain everything :P
You see, there's these voices in my head, and they... No, shut up, I'm trying to talk here... They tell me to do things that...
Wait, nevermind.
Did you read what Zanzibar actually said in the post you quoted? Zanzibar also made a point to say there would be no warnings in such a case. I personally don't see it come up if it was not a ban or a warning.
I didn't read any of that. I already know what actually happened, why would I bother with Zanzi's version?
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Personally I think the punishment should be contingent on the situation. For example, if one was to go about digging up 2-year-old threads just to prove a point - completely against forum policy - they should be punished regardless of whether the thread goes 'mostly' off-topic. Just a random example of course...
The thread was relevant to recent events on the forum. Why make a new thread if the old one will do? I wasn't bumping a thread "just to prove a point". Anyway, this is off topic.
In the case Zanz is referring to, the person in question has been warned of his behavior, argumentativeness and posting habits on numerous occasions and several people have *begged* me to ban this person. Nothing that happens to this person will be a surprise, only the timing of it, given how long this person has skated by without getting banned.
Also, I don't see a one-day ban as a punishment per se, but as a way of keeping arguments from escalating and keeping the forums from getting overly polluted.
By "argumentativeness", Vengeance means I have a habit of defending myself when people say things about me that I disagree with.
The reason I'm not banned is because I don't actually do anything wrong. Not much, anyway, and nothing worthy of a ban. I'm stubborn, I take unpopular positions, and I go off topic once in a while. Big deal.
I've found that the people who are the most critical of me usually have grudges which have nothing to do with what they complain about. For that reason, it's difficult to take their criticism seriously.
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I don't have a grudge against you :P I find you annoying, but actually I rather like you. There's something compelling about your total disregard for social etiquette :D
In other words, I would kinda miss you if you were banned...
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I don't have a grudge against you :P I find you annoying, but actually I rather like you. There's something compelling about your total disregard for social etiquette :D
In other words, I would kinda miss you if you were banned...
I know. :love:
(But you also haven't "begged" Vengeance to ban me and my comment was refering only to such individuals.)
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To anyone who reads this: If you assume I was talking about you in my previous post this thread, you probably deserve to be banned. :-P
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To anyone who reads this: If you assume I was talking about you in my previous post this thread, you probably deserve to be banned. :-P
You've said such things to me before, so I see no error in my assumption. It's unlikely that you were refering to someone else given the descriptors in you post and given the fact that I've never seen you address anyone else here with such a level of simultaneous disdain and indifference.
Of course while you make your statements in a nonchalant manner I still find them to be empty. I've been warned not to do things I haven't done. There are individuals who dislike me and have then gone to complain about things which are unrelated or fictional. What you've called "argumentativeness" is seen by others as defending oneself from offensive and false accusations and charges.
So yes, there are people who call me names, and one hopes that they'll grow out of it.
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There is one thing that seems kind of odd to me, and I think this may be a cause of some of the problems here. Should 'topic' be defined narrowly or broadly? For example, this post about the definition of topic could be considered both on and off-topic depending on how narrowly you wish to define the term. To me this is on topic because you cannot discuss a punishment for being off-topic without agreeing what is off-topic. Strictly speaking however it can be construed to be off topic because the specific topic is about punishment which this post is not.
If I had to adhere to the specific topic every time I do not suppose I would say very much and I am sure there would be some people who would appreciate it. I think if everyone else did the same this would be a very quiet place. The comments I do make usually have some kind of connection with the topic although I admit to making the occasional bad joke off of some OT thing someone else has said.
When people post in a thread I start in a manner or direction I am not interested in I try to steer them back to what I would like to discuss and then abandon ship if unsuccessful. I do not really expect people to be punished because the discussion gravitated away from what I wanted to talk about. Sometimes the discussion comes back to the original topic on its own (as I seem to have done with this post) and I can pick up where I left off.
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What a clear, intelligent and well-thought-out post, Bilbous. And I agree with you completely.
Discussions are 3-dimensional - they don't just move along a single line, or thread, until they hit the end and then die. Discussions transcend the singular and encompass many points of view, and methods of thinking, and general opinions about what is and isn't relative to the conversation.
To a very scatter-brained person, bringing up their favourite brand of lawnmower could, in their opinion, add a lot to a discussion about Russian politics. They're not doing it out of spite or in an effort to derail the conversation, and they shouldn't be punished for thinking differently. That's why insane people go to an asylum, and not to prison. It's like shouting at a retard because he can't figure out algebra.
That's a very extreme example, but like Bilbous said, different people consider different things in different ways.
For example, if we were talking about terrorism in the Middle East, I might compare it to the inner-workings of the IRA, since many terrorists groups base their structures off of them. Perfectly acceptable, no? But someone else might be unfamiliar with the IRA, or simply state that since the thread is about Middle-Eastern terrorism, the IRA's activities and methods are off-topic. And that opinion is valid too.
Which one is correct?
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Which one is correct?
The one the mod and admin team say is correct.
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Which one is correct?
The one the mod and admin team say is correct.
That's exactly my point. I'm not a mind-reader. How am I supposed to know whether the mod/admin would consider what I'm about to post as being over the line of off-topicalness?
Unless you want every single person on this forum to PM you their messages, and wait for your permission to post them, there's no real way of telling. Yet still it's deleted - and all that effort is gone - usually without warning... All based on the moderator's personal opinions.
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To a very scatter-brained person, bringing up their favourite brand of lawnmower could, in their opinion, add a lot to a discussion about Russian politics. They're not doing it out of spite or in an effort to derail the conversation, and they shouldn't be punished for thinking differently. That's why insane people go to an asylum, and not to prison. It's like shouting at a retard because he can't figure out algebra.
"I'm proud of my invention, but I'm sad that it is used by terrorists, I would prefer to have invented a machine that people could use and that would help farmers with their work - for example a lawnmower." ~~Mikhail Kalashnikov
Woohooo!!! I managed to turn that around to politics..... kinda ::|
Off-topic? Yes!
Which one is correct?
The one the mod and admin team say is correct.
Even if the mod-squad think that was on topic, it wasnt. But in general that is correct. Mods/Admins make the rules, we are just here to break them :P
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For the record, no one has been banned for a day, at least not to my knowledge, so I really don't see why everyone is getting so bent out of shape. I stayed quiet and let the topic take it's course for awhile now, and I think it's time that I gave my input.
Which one is correct?
The one the mod and admin team say is correct.
That's exactly my point. I'm not a mind-reader. How am I supposed to know whether the mod/admin would consider what I'm about to post as being over the line of off-topicalness?
Unless you want every single person on this forum to PM you their messages, and wait for your permission to post them, there's no real way of telling. Yet still it's deleted - and all that effort is gone - usually without warning... All based on the moderator's personal opinions.
You are over reacting again. One little post here and there isn't so bad. It's when there is a clump of them together. As example, 2 or 3 people go back and forth for half a thread page or more on how to make an apple muffin in a thread about how farmers will lose thier orange crop due to a bad frost just becuase someone mentioned that they should have switched to growing apples instead of oranges.
It's simple really, if you think there is a possibility that a post you want to make will be removed, it probably will. So PM one of us, and we'll either give the go ahead, or say no. We've done it in the past, and we'll more than likely continue to do it in the future. We are here to answere questions you know. It's not like we bite or anything, well, hard anyways. ::|
Now, typically when a forum goer reaches a certain amount of posts, we expect them to know a little better about how the forum is run and how things are handled. And after a warning or two we expect you to learn that you shouldn't have an offtopic discussion, like my given example. We expect you to know better and not do it, and if you do, well, then we pass judgement. Most of the time, we simply remove all the off topic banter, but other times, a more strict approach is needed. Consider it an iron glove wrapped in silk.
Now that that's settled, why don't we all go back to our happy little postings about cute kitten pictures or which rock band you like this week, or maybe about how you want to hook up with the latest guy/girl to post thier pic to the pictures thread, hmm, and you just leave the forum modding to the moderaters.
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OT Just curious here neko, is that an example of god-modding or would it have taken a lock to fit the description? :-\
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/me tries to resist......
/me fails
moderaters.
Its Moderators (http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=moderator) ;)
@Bilbous, what does 'OT' mean?
[EDIT] @Bilbous, thank you :)
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Off Topic
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I blame FireFox and it's inability to catch all typos as I type them. Oh, and the fact that this makes hour 39 of being awake-ness. I'll sleep eventually. Just as soon as work will let me.
and we do have a smilie you know: :offtopic:
Oh, and to answer bilby, yes, we are. This isn't a democracy, we are above you. But normally, we do like to treat you as equals. Sometimes, some of you just act like you don't want to be.
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How is it you can speak for all the moderators collectively? There's at least 3 others who're active besides you, and I know at least one of those people has a quite substantially different way of looking at things than you... :P It's reasonable to assume between you, Venge, Xordan and Karyuu that there's going to be at least a few instances where ya'll don't necessarily agree unanimously. Of 'course, only the most drastic moderator gets the blame in the end, because their lock/delete/temporary ban is the end-result...
Anyway, my point is this isn't about suddenly going "Bling! Oh! This is off-topic! What was I thinking!?" - people have different ways of looking at what does and does not relate to each other (in fact, it's governed alot by each individual's psychological archetype, but, uh... I'd best not go into that :P) and it won't suddenly become apparent no matter how many times they see posts get deleted.
It's just like Word Association. (I say a word, you say the first that comes to mind - i.e. the word that first springs up from your subconscious.)
When I say 'Butterfly' - one might say 'wing', another might say 'effect', another might say 'insect'... On a more advanced level that's exactly how human minds communicate.
And although you are 'above us' socially, you're actually working to protect us. Just like a cop - you may have rights and privileges and be above 'normal citizens', but you can't go around whacking random people with your night-stick for spitting gum at a trash can and missing... :P
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This isn't a democracy, we are above you.
I do not recognize anybody as being above or as a superior being and I consider the right of denying such claim as worthy.
Moderators aren't above all, they are the police, they enforce the laws, they aren't the law or above it. Just because you can click on some buttons to move/delete/lock threads among other things don't entitle you to claim such thing.
As long as nothing bad happen I'll remain here(Fortunately nothing will ever happen)
If you see a moderator abusing from his/her power, you have all the right of contacting an admin to report it, just have all the evidences of it ready and don't make useless rants.
But until now fortunately this didn't happen here, but I already saw some very bad cases in other forums. A hint for avoiding it is pretty simple: identify people that want to become mods mostly to bolster their egos and do not accept them, these are usually the ones that make trouble in a forum.
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[/end customary freedom speech from Ral] :P
Now that that's out of the way, let us continue... :D
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He does have a point though . The community is us, not the moderators.
(Corollary: The project itself is the devs, not us.)
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Gees, guys he replied to my joke with a joke of his own, get over it. Didn't he just finish saying he was overdue for sleep?
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He does have a point though . The community is us, not the moderators.
The community is larger than a few people - therefore if a few people act up and need a slap on the wrist, it doesn't mean the moderators are locking down on everyone.
Also take note:
The moderators of the PlaneShift forum have the authority to use their discretion and common sense on a case by case basis when moderating these forums and dealing with punishments for violating any of these rules.
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I was not refering to merely a few people.
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yay sleep. :love:
@lordraleigh : It's simple, you don't ask to become a mod. You just wake up one day and find out you've been promoted into it.
Also, we, as a mod team, have a forum section that normal forum users can't see. Just like the GM team has a section as well. In those places, we talk amoungst ourselves on issues and what actions should be taken. So yes, most of the time, there is no rogue mod going about deleting everyone and everything in sight as you aparently think.
Moderators aren't above all, they are the police, they enforce the laws, they aren't the law or above it. Just because you can click on some buttons to move/delete/lock threads among other things don't entitle you to claim such thing.
We are the law. We make the law, you follow it. You don't follow it, you aren't around here for very long. You have no rights to be here. This is us allowing you to be here. The project could go to closed testing at any time and thus only allow certain people to be part of the proect and thus we'd only allw certain people to come to the forums. Will that ever happen? Most certainly not. But I use it as an example. We are cop and judge and law maker in one.
But you are right, we have to follow the laws we make and we do answer for our actions. To the admins.
And although you are 'above us' socially, you're actually working to protect us. Just like a cop - you may have rights and privileges and be above 'normal citizens', but you can't go around whacking random people with your night-stick for spitting gum at a trash can and missing...
We are monitored by the admins, which have final say in everything. What ever they do, is final. No hope to argue, no chance to dispute. Don't like thier actions? Tough luck, this is thier forum in which they allow you the ability to use.
This place isn't run by the populace. It's run by the admins and thier mod staff. They hold all the power, the populace then follows.
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Is it that way? Not exactly. There are no iron gloves here. We listen to honest complaints and, yes, believe it or not, care about your input. This thread wouldn't even exist if that wasn't the case. We try to do our "job" fairly and try to do t so that everyone is happy. I don't like being the bad guy, I really don't. But some times, some of you like to push buttons. Sometimes, we are forced to push back. If I really didn't care what thegeneral populace thought, then I wouldn't have my PM box open to accept PMs from anyone now would I? I could simply block all PMs from only those people I feel like tlking to, but no, I leave it open so that if anyone as a problem, they can write to me wit the isue and I shall conider thier points and write back.
So do you have "freedom of speech" here? Nope. We allow you to post, simple as that.
Do we go around playing mr./mrs.. mean person? Only when there is no other option. Other than that, you have the go ahead to post as you wish, under the guidelines that have been set forth. Theres no reason to be all paranoid about the evil mod team and thier powers of deletion.
I think we're pretty darn open to what is posted around here. And we allow quite a bit of threads and posts to be made that, if we truely wanted to, we could remove. Why don't we? becuase we are nice. we want to be friends, not enemies. we want to work with you, not against you. the mods and admins are simply people given the power to poke otherpeople in the right direction. Same as the gm staff. we're just people, like you. we mae the same mstakes you do. We realise this, and thats why we don't play the big bad mod with a but delete button guy.
To be quite frank, I don't care if you have respect for me as a mod or not. But I do hope you respect the rules, and if you do decide to break them, know that you are forcing me or another mod/admin to take action. We wish there wasn't a need for rules and that every one got along just fine and dandy with each other, but that isn't going to everhappen. Different peoples backgrounds, differnet views on life, differenet everything, people come here from round the globe and post thier thoughts and ideals. Naturally, we aren't all going to be alike. And as such, there will be times, in which these things clash with one another. The mods and admins are here to step in on those occasions and cool the flames of war, so to say. Other than that and simply daily forum maintenance, we let the forum run its course.
Anyway, my point is this isn't about suddenly going "Bling! Oh! This is off-topic! What was I thinking!?" - people have different ways of looking at what does and does not relate to each other (in fact, it's governed alot by each individual's psychological archetype, but, uh... I'd best not go into that Tongue) and it won't suddenly become apparent no matter how many times they see posts get deleted.
Again, as long as it isn't 2 pages of "how to make a good apple muffin" in a thread about growing oranges, then its fine. I also believe I said, that after awhile we expect forum user sto check onto how theis place is run. If they don't, well, they'll justhave a tougher time here than those that do. It may be a bit unfortunate for them, but this is how the forum isrun, and this won't be changing. They'll just have to deal with thier post being deleted. For the most part though, this hasn't ever happened so far, sooo I really don't worry about it too much. Don't see why you should either.