PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Fozzharn on March 19, 2007, 04:08:26 pm
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well, I'm not sure if this is real complaining but I think it fits best in here.
Talkin' about RP sometimes gets pretty worse in and around this forum.
I read people called names like "RP-Nazi" and "RP-Taliban" here, which is not my way but it made me thinking.
Sure, Planeshift is an RP-based game and that is finally why I'm here.
But ....
It can not be all about RP because the possibilities of the game make it in some cases necessary to "powerlevel" (don't like that word actually ... but anyway)
Take me as an example ... I want to be a high quality weapon smithy and I do not only want to RP that ... I want to craft high quality weapon and even sell them ... (in RPing it !)
What does that mean ? Powerlevelling metallurgy, blacksmithing and e.g. Knife making to reach the quality I want to craft and to finally RP my "Quality-Smithy-Character"
What does that mean ? I have to powerlevel my combat abilities to finally be able to earn the PP for my crafting training.
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another example ...
what about someone who wants to be a great, highly skilled warrior who wants to tell stories about killing an Ulber all by himself ... he should powerlevel to reach this ability ....
So, where's your beef you ask ...
Well, when I hear (read) all these topics, posts and threads about RPing ... it all sounds as if nobody should train any skiill at all! (This would be somekind of a chat-room for me then ... not a game)
When I think about real life (am I allowed to?) I see that working as a crafter is a long day working and working ...and you sometimes don't speak a word the whole day ... your freetime is reduced to max 2 hours in the evening ... having a beer maybe and talk to some people.
So if you want to seriously RP this ... well ... you can imagine what I mean.
So what I want to complain about is, that some RP Enthusiasts often give me the feeling that I'm doing wrong when I train the skills I want my Character to have ... to finally RP it as it should appear.
Anyone understood me ? (Same pity all the time, when I read my posts back I hate my english writing)
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If you do it while in character, I think you're fine.
The problem is people who go OOC constantly or who RP "just enough" to get away with duel spamming and harassing people.
What's worse is the people who defend others when they go OOC.
noob> by the gods wer d o 1 kill sum ratz
rpnazi> Please don't go OOC in public chat.
idiot> [Shut up, he's just asking a question!]
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I think you are totally within your rights to power level to attain some level for a purpose. I think the term Power-Leveler normally refers to someone doing the leveling for the sake of it. Without a clearly defined purpose. Or just so they can declare they are 'l33t'.
If you go to either of the smithing areas you will see lots of people crafting and I doubt many of them are creating one-off items. Most I would expect are trying to level their skills.
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I think you are totally within your rights to power level to attain some level for a purpose. I think the term Power-Leveler normally refers to someone doing the leveling for the sake of it. Without a clearly defined purpose. Or just so they can declare they are 'l33t'.
If you go to either of the smithing areas you will see lots of people crafting and I doubt many of them are creating one-off items. Most I would expect are trying to level their skills.
The answer to my mind is to make it easier to max out skills while at the same time limiting the number of skills you can excel in. So you'd have to basically dedicate your character to a certain trade.
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The simple soloution to this problem would be just to allow players to set their skills and stats at character creation. I cant see this being implemented however.
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Hmm set your skills at CC not bad, better is subsequent use\disuse increases\decreases ability levels so that you have x number of allocation points to create with then things you use: get better with time and things you do not: degrade. The current system can be kept to accelerate advancement.
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heh bilbous your going into the "sugestions" frame with that post maybe move the idea to the wishlist because personaly i think its great (and maybe try search i think ive read something like it a while back)
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In response to the initial query, as long as you are IC most of the time, and properly notate your OOC text, no one should care what you do (that is, as long as you're not exploiting). "Powerlevel" your skills all you like; it's no ones business but yours. I do agree that it is somewhat silly to have to kill mobs to become an expert crafter, but keep in mind that this is a system in the works. I don't think these silly aspects will be around forever, and as such it's best to just RP around them.
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The simple soloution to this problem would be just to allow players to set their skills and stats at character creation. I cant see this being implemented however.
the problem about this though is that non-rp'ers would just max it all and go "!'/x\ 1337 ! |*\x/|\| .|00"
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The simple soloution to this problem would be just to allow players to set their skills and stats at character creation. I cant see this being implemented however.
the problem about this though is that non-rp'ers would just max it all and go "!'/x\ 1337 ! |*\x/|\| .|00"
Does the kind of person who runs round saying that know what an apostrophe is for?
Either way, They will certainly get bored quicker and leave :)
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Either way, They will certainly get bored quicker and leave :)
I know how to make them leave more quickly!
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So it is settled then? Any newb we want to get rid of is forced to spend the next 24 on-line hours with Zanzibar! 1 Kran -->> 2 Klyros! \\o//
More seriously @ Peacer wouldn't that just get them laughed at? An oldbie could just put on his ring of the past and be 20 points better than the best.
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/me <---powerlever
There is nothing wrong with training your skills. In fact, this is what is intended. Hopefully we can strike some balance for the crafters and miners to free them from hacking at monsters. Yliakum is a dangerous place, most well known personages should probably be able to weild a weapon at least decently.
Personally (not speaking as dev) I have trouble with people who play roles their stats do not endorse. I think you should be what you say you are. Imagination is the root of all roleplay i think PS provides a place where imagination and "experience" combine. Players who have had the most success with player events and such have effectively told stories with the tools ps provides for them.
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Hello everybody !
I am completly with you Fozzharn. At the moment the complaints from RP-only members are something to complain about.
I am often under the impression that most of them are better off with a chatroom than in a game with mechanics.
I also pray that the dev's do not read these threads because if I would be a dev of PS I would stop to develope the game machine because it looks like it is not needed. Please dev's don't do that - there are players in this game who want to have some RP AND the game mechanics, because both is fun.
cu IC
Sunshine
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For the record, I don't RP much because I don't see much of it happening, and when I do see it happening it's usually between characters that my character shouldn't associate with.
And I'd also count as a powerleveller - I have a lot of maxed stats.
Do I do see both sides of things!
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I could have a wimp and pathetic weakling to become Alexander the Great in 2 months of intense powerlevelling, using Yliakum days/Earth days this would equate to 12 months = 1 year.
In the same form o current way levelling works, a Kran with the "intelligence" of Homer Simpson could become an Einstein even in 6 days, more or less 1 Yliakum month of training to boost INT from total dumbness to geniousity.
Or a ridiculously ugly and anti-social character could become a charismatic leader in 1 month using the same equation.
This is one of the ways to define what is powerlevelling.
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The simple soloution to this problem would be just to allow players to set their skills and stats at character creation. I cant see this being implemented however.
the problem about this though is that non-rp'ers would just max it all and go "!'/x\ 1337 ! |*\x/|\| .|00"
Uh, no. I would assume that Idoru's system would have it so you only have so many points to allocate. If you maxed out certain skills, you would have to take points away from others.
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If you're smart about it you can come up with an RP reason for everything you want to do...making them plausible is another thing.
But, enforcing RP, at least for me, is a moot point.
My main concern at this point--will add to wish list after two weeks--is char creation.
I know it's against some ideas of "strict" RP to give stats before your char is created (or stats at all), but since you do so anyway at the end, you end up with people having to write guides to char creation (making it less enjoyable, less immersive, and more of a hassle at the start) in order to stat out the character builder (hackorish) so they can build the char the way they want. And afterwards the pregenerated backstory is probably not anything like what they wanted their character to be... Plus some of the things in there are a bit outlandish and cliqueish.
<edit>and if they don't find those guides here, they can (or will) certainly find them on the net
I was trying to make a Hunter/Archer and ended up with 110 will.
Mainly because I didn't want to take the negatives to certain stats I consider essential to my character.
My suggestion is to give no stats at all--ever, or give stats from the very beginning.
No stats would focus more on RP at the beginning, and make people feel out their characters afterwards.
Without numbers it's based on gameplay solely, but an option to eliminate (or revert) some of the choices at a later date becomes very important.
<edit> unfortunately there are those who will eventually figure out the stats regardless, but if the average player doesn't have to worry about his stats (i.e. it's obvious that this does this, or this improves this etc. etc.--same goes for skills), most people won't even waste the time with mastering the nuances (or code) of the interface--they'll focus on enjoying the game.
<edit>Experienced RPers v. 1337 h4xx3r5: in my opinion you need both, the 1337 h4xx3r5 find the flaws and explain a lot about the game so that you can pretty much ignore the interface, the RPers make it fun. What Planeshift wants (I think) is 1337's that can RP; best bet is to make it fun and not seem overbearing and controlling (something they hate)--this will cause dissension and turn many of them against you, causing even more problems when they point out the flaws in the worst possible manner.
I like no stats option, but this needs to become MUCH more sophisticated to be useful.
On the plus side--for showing stats--just about every p&p tabletop game I know of shows stats in the character creation stage--most at the very beginning. Let us create the characters as we want them, and you will get a much better RP response from players. Even those who don't RP that much.
I understand that for some players, unless they are forced to pick a backstory they won't, but do you really want to force one upon them that doesn't match their character?
Might want to let the community deal with this one...
Who would want to group with a purposefully non-RPer in an overtly RP game?
Though, in this case, I guess in-game experience with this one is golden.
I do know that if it's too restrictive the good RPer's won't like it.
Tough call.
Maybe try random RP incentives by the GM's?
That would have worked really well in other MMO's I've played.
Though that in and of itself seems less immersive...
To start, for now, I'd suggest making some more general options for backstory and include the stat mods in the character creator.
Or, better yet, have an option to view (or not view) the stat mods while creating a character, giving the player even more flexibility.
Just from the character builder (the game itself, not the community, forums, website, etc.), I'm wondering if there was really a big RP focus to begin with, or if it's something that was picked up at a later time (not that it's a bad thing, I really like it) or how much RP experience you all really have, or if the character builder just wasn't, and isn't one of the priorities...
<edit>Kind of like "we'll look into implementing that at a later time"
<edit> The artistry; however, is certainly not in question--though, is it true that the graphics are proprietary? Would be curious to know what exactly is or isn't open source.
Yes, I know it's alpha (still alpha right?) but character creation is one of the first impressions people have of the game.
For the backstory, you might want to start much more general (universal?) and then make it specific later.
Rather than entirely rewriting the character creator text at a later date.
I did see the quick build option, convenient, decent for now, but way too limited for an open-source game.
Like the game so far.
Later
<edit>clarified a few things
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I think you are totally within your rights to power level to attain some level for a purpose. I think the term Power-Leveler normally refers to someone doing the leveling for the sake of it. Without a clearly defined purpose. Or just so they can declare they are 'l33t'.
If you go to either of the smithing areas you will see lots of people crafting and I doubt many of them are creating one-off items. Most I would expect are trying to level their skills.
The answer to my mind is to make it easier to max out skills while at the same time limiting the number of skills you can excel in. So you'd have to basically dedicate your character to a certain trade.
I would quit planeshift if we were limited in this way. It would suck beyond anything. I love to RP, but the main reason I love this game is because you are granted total freedom in what skills you want to train, and the end ability to have every single skill at max level is a goal that will keep you playing for years. And this is realism. Just because you start out learning magic, what is stopping you from picking up a sword at starting to train your sword skill from level 1 and taking it all the way to 100 at which point you will be exactly as good as anyone who started out as a fighter class.
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I don't know that I would quit... but I would be less satisfied with the game if there were significant hard restrictions on what you can('t) train. This is truly one of the things I like about PS the most... the class-less leveling system. If i want to make swords, I have to train at making swords. If i want to learn magic, I have to train magic. I don't just choose a class (warrior, mage, cleric, etc) and go around killing things and decide at each "level"... hmmm... I've never picked up a hammer or even glanced at an anvil, but I think i want to put 50 points into crafting weapons... and off they go. Please don't read this as I think all races should be the same (like they are now). I think that balance is more important than equality in the long term, but I don't want to only be able to train 2 weapons and 1 magic way vs 1 weapon, 1 magic way, and 1 trade skill. If I want to put in the time and Trias, I should be able to learn almost all there is to learn in Y'liakum.
For realism in training, PS has it better than most I've come across. I do think that there needs to be some tweaking so that if you don't want to be a fighter/<insert profession here> and just be a <insert profession here>, you can. But, as we are reminded frequently, this is still a work in progress.
As for the RP vs PL fight that has been waging since time began (at least in Y'liakum from what I can gather), let the RPers do their thing as long as they aren't being a nuisance. The same with the PLers. I have been working hard on my stats/skills lately, but I don't go around talking !337. Nobody I have encountered in-game has ever been like people in this post (and others around the forum) seem to think all PLers are. I do see a lot of net speak and abbreviations, but that is just internet culture and I write most of it off.
I think the biggest thing that can happen to get everyone on the same page, is to stress loudly and often that RP is not quoting Tolkien or any other author, but to simply play the role of your character. If your character doesn't want to be a magic user, don't train magic. If your character doesn't like metal, don't wield swords. Your character also wouldn't ask questions about computers or the internet or things like that, because they don't exist in Y'liakum. I've talked to many players that are a little timid, and also afraid of RP because it is so overblown here on the forums and they are scared of messing up and getting yelled at. I've tried to assure them that things like that don't normally happen, but some are just content to play the game by leveling, and that should be ok too.
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IMHO for realism one shouldnt be able to max out all skills and stats. An Olympic weightlifter gold medalist couldnt win a gold in gymnastics, Usain Bolt couldnt win a Marathon gold in record time. One may be able to master one or two trades but anymore would run in to the old maxim Jack of all trades Master of none.
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I could see not being able to "max" skills... (and stat limits should be imposed per race, before magical enhancements)... but I should be able to achieve (assuming a scale of 0 - 100) a 50-60 in as many skills as I want, but only be able to progress higher in a handful. I did not mean to imply that I should be able to master all, just that I should be able to be "good" or "fair" at all if I want to put the time and effort into it.
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Myth has a good idea, but I believe it should soft cap skills, not hard cap them. Let's say you max magic, and get combat skills to the theoretical 60 limit, it's still possible to train them further but it requires some 4-5 times as much xp/time/effort as it usually would, in that way you can still work really hard to master more then one trade
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IMHO for realism one shouldnt be able to max out all skills and stats. An Olympic weightlifter gold medalist couldnt win a gold in gymnastics, Usain Bolt couldnt win a Marathon gold in record time. One may be able to master one or two trades but anymore would run in to the old maxim Jack of all trades Master of none.
This is how I think it should be. Realism is one reason for it. But making characters specialize in a trade is also good because it encourages people to work together. If we all have different skills, then we'll need eachother and we'll need to cooperate with one another.
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Being that this is a fantasy realm, we don't have to put too much realism into a weight lifter being able to sprint as fast as a runner. But I would take that as being limited by your stats, not skill levels. If you are incredibly strong, then you may not be very agile. I think that a better way of running limits to skills would be making them dependent on base stats. Base stats being limited by your race.
I know... work in progress... and balance will come in time. But this would work as an overall limit, and you could work the tweaks in with the moderate vs master skill levels on top of it.
[EDIT] In the case of magic, each way is already tied to a particular stat. Only be able to train up to a certain level based on your stats.