PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 04:13:34 pm

Title: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 04:13:34 pm: A healthy discussion might ensue.

One thing I would like to say to begin is that there are already many way the players contribute to the settings of the game.

I will hope to keep this discussion free from hard feelings or "rage against the machine" of the dev team.

Try to present some thoughts here in a constructive manner and avoid sniping one another if possible.

Remember also that is topic is merely theoretical.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Donari Tyndale on April 25, 2007, 04:21:43 pm: User generated content? Maybe you could set a minimum period of time a player needs to have been in-game for creating content, something like a year or so.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: neko kyouran on April 25, 2007, 04:51:01 pm: I'm all for it. The rat texture contest turned out quite nice. Took it a little bit to take off, but the end results of that contest seemed to make it worth it no?
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Manar on April 25, 2007, 04:52:48 pm: I'm not sure what sort of discussion you're looking for, but I wouldn't call it merely theoretical. It's already ingame. Sketching. There's a bug that prevents the feature from actually being used, but still, it's been implemented. And there's also already a /write command, even if that doesn't work yet. So user generated content --through ingame tools-- seems a done deal to me.

Which leaves uploading objects, textures or whatevers to the server. There's obviously concern for OOC or even offensive material, which applies equally to ingame creations, except that it's a lot easier to moderate uploads. You can either put them in a queue until a GM clears them for ingame use, or you could keep a list of recent uploads, which would be checked whenever a GM feels like it.

I'd say that if you have tools ingame to create content, allowing some form of upload only makes sense. It gives players access to better tools, which means the quality of the content will go up.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Donari Tyndale on April 25, 2007, 04:56:06 pm: Is this discussion about in-game created content or contributed content or both?
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: bilbous on April 25, 2007, 05:23:10 pm: I think the in-game mapping function is a good start and hope it will be extended to allow for written tomes. It might be nice if there was a calligraphy skill available that would open up different fonts as you progress in it, there are a fair number of open source fonts that could be used. Also, if found acceptable, it could be used to produce illuminated texts, such as were made by medieval monks before the press was invented. Is that the kind of suggestion you had in mind?
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Induane on April 25, 2007, 05:30:49 pm: User generated content and PS.

FINALLY!!

OMG!

Seriously this is the NUMBER 1 thing I think holds PS back. There is some sort of unwritten policy that says if you post things publicly then they cannot go ingame. They can also not go ingame if you are not some sort of dev when you made it. There have been a SUPER TINY few exceptions to this such as the Elves skin which was originally a mod, and the one time Art contest for rat skins.

Considering the size of the PS community I have always maintained that there is a huge untapped resource for expanding the game. The current models for contribution are in my opinion, innovation stifling, and fun draining. I have some time to donate to the project but not to commit to deadlines, assignments, etc. I'm sure many feel the same way. A closed contribution model really really really limits the rate at which PS can grow, and the requirements for contributing as a dev keep many people from applying, or staying long when they do. Cherppow is great but we could use more contributions on the art side imo. We're not all superhuman, some of us have lives to attend to from time to time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to contribute.

I propose someone (probably josephoenix - he rocks ) should put together a part of ps-mc.com or some other site. On that site should be a list of things needed by the devs. Give them ratings from beginner to expert, and have an upload option. People can work on them (they should be allowed a wip thread as well on the PS forums). When they are happy with their work, they should be able to upload it to the page of the needed item/building/whatever. An upload package should be in zip format, include 1 or more screenshots, the necessary textures (or a packed blender file) and a statement of agreement with the atomic blue license and some contact information. Then devs can go to the site, find what they need, and put it to use. If someones work is chosen an email or message should be sent to them notifying them that their art is to be used. This will serve as good motivation and recognition of service. A locked mod run thread could also be opened in the fan art section to showcase each contribution thats selected. Current 3D devs should have the ability to select art and modify it to their needs without the need for useless bureaucracy of going through extra confirmation with devs who have no time to review things (talad) .

Seriously - the contribution model currently is abysmal, stupid, and poorly constructed imo. I have no idea what the true motivation for it is, but I am 100% certain in my own mind at least, that there is a large untapped resource here in this community, and not using it is a horrible decision.

Just my 10 cents (adjusted for inflation)
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: miadon on April 25, 2007, 05:35:25 pm: ditto to the above
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: bilbous on April 25, 2007, 05:43:25 pm: I'm above all that ;)

Just a note to add to my suggestion. I think it might be good if the in-game books were more like books, or scrolls, in that you could write in the margins, on the back, anywhere there might be empty space. Doing so would obviously convert the book from a generic one of its type to a singularly instanced type so it might be more trouble than it is worth.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Nikodemus on April 25, 2007, 05:46:07 pm: This is where i started to write my post ;P
Quote from: Donari Tyndale on April 25, 2007, 04:56:06 pm
Is this discussion about in-game created content or contributed content or both?
I believe this is mostly, if not all about what people do, but not trough in-game tools. People are ofted writing stories, describe items, places needed for their RP events, societies, individuals. Everythign what most likely could be in setting, but isn't there, because noone made it. It obviously needs to make sense with the rest of the setting.
We players often don't know the PS setting good enough, and sometimes we think something is original, but in fact it was already made, but in different form. In which case, i believe there is a chance to incorporate the player idea-into what was made already, if it makes sense.
This is also about art related contributions, mix of code and art (which won't make sense if divaded), areas and alike.

I'm all go for it. If there is new feature, new setting puzzle, and it makes sense, what is the difference in who made it?
I can see that Talad like to hide most of the setting, so that we find it out playing the game, but it is poor reason against player made setting parts. We do realise it very well that only creators of this feature and devs should know something about it. Stopping us from this the game is developing slower and people may leave, because as some point they may find their IC interaction boring, if they can't do what they wish (like they can't build themselves a house, if their character has the money, specially that they as players have all skills they need)
It is enjoyable to play PS, but it is supposed to be RP game, like the pen&paper games we play with friends. There we can really do what we wish, and the GM keep it realistic. We want to play PS in similiar way too, to keep it enjoyable.

I aslo agree that a player should be there with his idea long enough, (like a year?), because this way worth ideas will remain, while these we don't really need, won't.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: LARAGORN on April 25, 2007, 05:46:45 pm: I can understand Talads thoughts behind the new additions to be for Staff eyes only before implimented in game, but I would like to see a little change in that area. There are some amazingly talented artists around here, and some of their work displayed in these forums will never get a chance to be used in-game because the public has seen it.

This could be the reason you have created this thread Xillix. Are you now going to use fitting creations that have been shared with the public? If so, I think that is a great decission. Recently we have seen some very good original creations in varying areas, that IMHO would add to the PS experiance and need very little if any modifications to be implimented.

Before you became a Dev Xillix, you created some very good work on the Klyro's history that is completly fitting with the settings. I see no reason something like that shouldnt be used, and added to the official PS history. There are other comunity created stories that are fitting aswell and would add to the depth of the settings while answering many questions and filling in a few gaps in the Official story.

I hope this is the direction you had in mind for this thread ;)

EDIT: LOL i started this a while ago and 5 other posts were added before i hit the send :P I am leaving it as is .

EDIT#2: I dont like the 'must be here for a year' idea, if someone has tallent, they have tallent period. Waiting a year to use their creations will simply slow down the whole point of this. If as Bilbous suggested, there is a site created for contributions, everyone interested will have to read the requirments before submitting any work. A pannel of Devs will then select the items that are suitable and add them where applicable.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Mordaan on April 25, 2007, 06:02:26 pm: I agree with Induane 100%. We have had only 1 new character model introduced in the last how many years? (male klyros). I have to believe that there are some awsome artists out there capable of at least attempting to create something worthy of being accepted as a final model, let alone animations to existing models. Let's get these out there and encourage potential artists to take a shot. Of course character models are the big ones...but there is certainly much to do with all the item models and corresponding 2D icons.

I don't know much about graphic art...I can't even draw decent stick figures in Paint X-/ so I have no clue what it takes to get something from scratch to the level it takes to be accepted by Talad. I know it must be an incredibly painstaking process. But those that are willing to put in the time should be encouraged to do so. I'm sure there are plenty of art students who are willing to practice their craft and contribute to PS at the same time. They get something they can add to their resume, we get more great art ingame...everybody wins!

I don't visit the fan art forum very much but I was thinking to have some sort of starters guide to set artists off in the right direction so they don't waste a lot of time doing things in a way that will never be acceptable. Then I discovered this post (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26870.0) that was already there. So it seems its already established that the community wants these type of contributions.

There seems to be this "keep it hush-hush so it's a surprise" attitude which I can understand, but I would much rather see this kind of development out in the open so the community can critique it. I would love to see threads like "Here's my attempt at a Xacha male model, what do you think?" IMHO the benefits of having more of an open contribution community outweighs the security of keeping things behind closed doors.

One question I have from a "I have no clue since I'm not an artist" point of view is: is Blender the only way to create something that will end up in game? If so, why?

Quote
EDIT: LOL i started this a while ago and 5 other posts were added before i hit the send Tongue I am leaving it as is .
EDIT: Hehe, I am in the same boat, 3 replies since I started, so sorry if I have echoed what was already there.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Karyuu on April 25, 2007, 06:39:32 pm: Mordaan: You can use any 3D application - but Blender and 3ds Max are the only ones with working exporters at the moment.

To those talking about a lack of art contributions, you seem to have missed the Submitting Models (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28282.0) thread entirely! Please take a look at it before you continue. I have already received a good amount of artsy content from someone not on the dev team that I will be trying to get into the game. Don't be too hasty to presume that contribution is as closed to you as it may have been when you just arrived here.

I understand that many desire the process to be even more open, with a submission form/message board/website, and that's what this thread is good for. However, in my opinion you already have a means of getting your work accepted.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 06:43:36 pm: Quality control is another aspect to consider. Induane's post adresses this. I would say the likelyhood of creating a large slushpile of not so good material is fairly high . . .

I have no agenda in posting this Laragorn. This thread is, as i suggested, just a chance for dicussion to occur and should go where the players take it. I will answer what I can here or there.

One thing i would like to raise, that i have raised elsewhere is that egocentric creations are not the most productive or useful to the project at large. I have have people ask me as part of their "Pay" for writing for planeshift that they be able to write their player character into the game. Imo this is not the best attitude.

Would i like it if the Vespers were encoded as the actual faith of Laanx? Sure. It is a bad precedent to set however. Because of this belief the Vespers will stay as they are and advance like any other guild.

Means are provided now and more will be for some user generated material already.

some great thoughts in the air already, what do the rest of you think?
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Earl_Listbard on April 25, 2007, 06:47:47 pm: art and 3D modeling has never been my strong suit, though for PS to be a truely immersive experiance every hole in its reality should be patched up, such things as described in the thread "A request from the dev team" I would like it if players could make suggestions for offical PS lore, and facts, as I would like to point out many of the best story tellers and legend makers in yliakum are not on the dev team. :sorcerer:
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 06:58:33 pm: I think earl is trying to provoke me ;)

We are working on it earl why else would i have made the request from settings thread?

As "many of the best story tellers and legend makers in yliakum" can attest I am open to suggestions, given privately.

Even this is an effort at openess an attempt to mine the player community for its thoughts . . .

keep em coming, I am curious
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Induane on April 25, 2007, 07:00:24 pm: Quote
I understand that many desire the process to be even more open, with a submission form/message board/website, and that's what this thread is good for. However, in my opinion you already have a means of getting your work accepted.

Thats all well and good ...but:

1.) It would be nice to have an idea of whats needed so that work isn't duplicated, or done unnecessarily and so that some people who just feel like modeling don't have to invent the wheel.

2.) Does it allow a WIP thread? Public critique of artwork can be an excellent way of refining things before final submissions and would help with quality control.

3.) It doesn't have a good organized method of showing what community members contributed what. Some of the fun of it would be to see your name listed with a screenshot of your work and a thank-you. It makes the work feel appreciated more than it just showing up in game.

4.) Doesn't address some of the bureaucratic problems, unless there are other people who can approve art now.

Quote
Don't be too hasty to presume that contribution is as closed to you as it may have been when you just arrived here.

I'm not - I realize its gotten slightly better over the last year or so and for that I am glad, but I still feel it could be improved a lot. The easier it is to contribute the better imo. An organized effort to include the community, backed by nice web infrastructure and established procedures in a broader scale than is currently done can only help PlaneShift improve.

Another issue I have is access to source art. I have enough time to go through and do some bump mapping and parallax mapping to parts of PlaneShift but not enough time to be a full time dev. In its current iteration map improvements are impossible, and contributing things like a house mesh are very difficult even now. If I make a house, and it has an interior and exterior portion (much like the tavern) I could be using different render loops on the interior and exterior, plus I'd have to know the renderloop of the zone it was going into otherwise I could apply shaders to the wrong step of the renderloop, or worse apply shaders that cannot be used in certain renderloops. If the method I describe in my previous post were used information regarding location and renderloop could be given so that artists could easily know what features of crystalspace are available to them. Is this a terrain loop? Great, I can use parallax mapping applied to the ambient step instead of std_lighting, and get some nicer effects. Can the interior use a shadowed or shadowed2 renderloop? Great, I can use bump mapping to actually increase performance, but apply it to the diffuse step instead. I know to keep the number of lights to as few as possible as a performance boost. Do I have a transparant texture? Should I apply mixmode alpha to this mesh? What about texture_binary? Not knowing enough information SERIOUSLY hampers artists efforts. This is a MAJOR issue, and really holds us back as far as contributing nice things.

Seriously. The more info the better, yet the policy isn't even "need to know basis" its "you don't need to know much" and thats simply not the case.

Quote
Quality control is another aspect to consider. Induane's post addresses this. I would say the likelihood of creating a large slush pile of not so good material is fairly high

Sure it is, so don't use it, or use only whats good. A nice mesh with bad textures could still save a lot of dev time.

Quote
One thing i would like to raise, that i have raised elsewhere is that egocentric creations are not the most productive or useful to the project at large. I have have people ask me as part of their "Pay" for writing for planeshift that they be able to write their player character into the game. Imo this is not the best attitude.

I agree with this for the most part. Contributions should be community serving, not the other way around. Doesn't mean that some things aren't worth looking at though.

Quote
Means are provided now and more will be for some user generated material already.

Good steps, but not nearly enough to unleash the full potential of the community. Am I the only one who believes in the exceptional amount of talent here? I guess not but sometimes it feels that way.

I guess my overall point is not that it should just be allowed but that community driven contributions should be encouraged, and sought after, and a priority for the team as a means of expanding PS.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Raleigh on April 25, 2007, 07:23:50 pm: Quote from: Induane on April 25, 2007, 07:00:24 pm
Good steps, but not nearly enough to unleash the full potential of the community. Am I the only one who believes in the exceptional amount of talent here? I guess not but sometimes it feels that way.

No, you're definitively not the only one ;)

Full Cathedral model works fine and fast enough... for commercial projects with hired devs and artists

I think that there should be more space for people to contribute, much more space. If someone isn't inside the
formal dev team, it does not mean this person doesn't have any talent.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Earl_Listbard on April 25, 2007, 07:37:28 pm: Quote from: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 06:58:33 pm
I think earl is trying to provoke me ;)

We are working on it earl why else would i have made the request from settings thread?

As "many of the best story tellers and legend makers in yliakum" can attest I am open to suggestions, given privately.

Even this is an effort at openess an attempt to mine the player community for its thoughts . . .

keep em coming, I am curious

*EL hides under a rock.*

errm, yes sorreh...
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Ralleyon on April 25, 2007, 08:01:33 pm: I agree with Induane 1000%. More openness is better since it will "unlock" the creativity for many people and provide them with a real incentive to contribute. Too many times have I seen the attitude "This is the only way we can do this and if we do it another way it would hurt the game" and too many ideas have I seen being killed from the start with a similar answer. I'm not saying the reasons provided weren't valid or that they didn't have good points, but I will say that in my opinion it was not the only way. Try this at least and then dismiss these ideas.

I noticed a great deal of modding communities out there revolving around various games and, one of the biggest I met, was for a closed-source game I used to play. And yet it provided the opportunity for anyone to create mods - be they good or poor - and once released, it was the community's choice whether they would be accepted or not. I will admit that the game had specialized editors to help with many of those things, but still - I can't quite shake the feeling that there is so much more that can be done here through a more open model of development.

PS Thanks for the initiative Xillix!
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 08:38:34 pm: The current state of player access to internal artwork or settings documents will not likely change.

Can we expand the conversation to cover also some more content generation that is not at the dev level?

Like things the players might like to be able to generate within the game?
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: neko kyouran on April 25, 2007, 09:18:09 pm: Well, there's the mapping feature that will work eventually. Hmm, I believe in the wishlist area there were a thread or two on how players would like to b able to make thier own weapons and what not. Like they have a seperate section to make a type of handle, then a blade part, and other things and then combine em together to make thier own weapon. And based on what parts were used and what not, that would determine the stats of the weapon.

i think if that was ironed out more in detail that'd mae the crafting quite interesting.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Under the moon on April 26, 2007, 04:27:48 am: There are three divisions to content donation and contributing.

1) Code- mechanics and new features
Easy. The source is open. If you think you can do something better, or in a new way, then go to it. Submissions are welcome if you do a good job at it. But, there is a problem of not really knowing what parts of the code the team would like improved at the time, or what new features they would like to have worked on next.

What would help:
a. An open agenda of some of the existing things Devs would like looked over and cleaned up.
b. A to-do feature list, so that people can see what devs would like to see ‘soon’.

2) Art- items, textures, maps, models, concept art, pictures.
This is where it gets tricky. The thread Karyuu linked to tells you what is looked for in models and art… but it is very hard to even know where to start without actual examples (model wise) to play with and tweak until you -understand- how acceptable models should work.

What would help:
a. A list of specific to general ‘things’ that are wanted.
b. A community submission ‘filter’. This is to have the community pre-select submitted art to save the Devs from a flood of second rate art. Folks would post their work in some sort of open gallery, and others could give it a rating of whether they would like to see the work in-game or not.
c. More contests such as the rat one, or others such as ‘Improve this model’ or ‘Finish this art’. Some people art good at starting from scratch, while others are good at modding something existing.
d. Examples! Don’t keep such a deathgrip on the character models. Take a few out of the vault, and let people study and/or mod them. You will be pleasantly surprised with what starts coming back.

3) Words- either in book form, or in suggested actual world history or culture.
This is a scary quagmire. Some parts of the Story can not be released for obvious reasons and fear of cheating or spoiling. But, history and culture are an interwoven web that makes writing about any subject a virtual minefield. One subject bleeds into another. I often find myself at a complete loss when trying to write something to fit in the settings. The small story of a monk of Talad, for example, would touch on the history of magic, religion (and how they relate to each other), life and death, past race interactions, geography, and even the weather, to be brief. Even if those things are never mentioned in the story, they still must be taken into consideration.

What would help:
a. As above, a list of general to specific works that are wanted.
Basic Examples:
*Diaboli marriage traditions- conditions: not like human weddings, some bizarre rituals, reasons for vows/gift exchange or lack of such. Style of writing: First person historical account.
*Dwarven drinking ritual- conditions: establish ‘rank’ of respect among families, once a year ritual. Style of writing: Encyclopedia entry.
*The mythical story of the fisherman- Must contain: talking fish, wife, curse, leaky boat, moral. Style: open.
*Rewrite the Gobble book- More information and suggested behavior.
b. Easier access to some information. The library is basically empty, yet there are books and information that can be found in other places. Unless rare, banned, or a personal book, all books should be duplicated in the main library. This would aid in writing other books based on them without having to run all around the world.
c. More contests. Subjects could be anything from descriptions of creatures and their habits, to… Harn’s personal account of first getting a job at the smithy.
d. Give the community an NPC, and challenge them to come up with a great personality and dialog database.

As for in-game contributions, that would require new coding for many things. People want to see their actions affect their surroundings. The game is not advanced enough yet for that. One thing I would like to see is an NPC that talks in open chat, responds when you say his/her name, and learns from what you tell them (per community approval, of course). Then, whatever is told to it can be reviewed by certain trusted community members before being committed to its knowledge.

On the weapon/object front, people should be able to make the item have the exact stats they want it to have (per their skill). But, weapons and objects would have to have a greater detailing of stats, such as type, balance, length, thickness, materials/alloys (the last three determine weight), sharpness, hardness (soft to brittle, softer being easy to repair, more brittle for piercing hard hides), and colors (paints or dyes). That way, each and every item created could be unique. Example: A thick (90 on scale of 1/100), single bit axe with a very sharp (100/100 -takes more time to make), yet brittle (80/100) blade and heavy(95/100) haft would cut through just about anything, but be quite heavy, chip easily, and require re-forging to fix. A light ax with a medium(50/100) haft and soft (10/100) blade would be perfect for woodcutting, and repairs in the field. But, that belongs in the wish list, I suppose. I don’t like the idea of folks designing their own weapon/item objects, though. Too many silly things would come of it. Just give a wide selection of useable weapon designs.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Garon on April 26, 2007, 04:51:03 am: Quote from: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 06:43:36 pm
Quality control is another aspect to consider. Induane's post adresses this. I would say the likelyhood of creating a large slushpile of not so good material is fairly high . . .

True, but if the settings department filters out the less nice ones ("I want goblins and orcs", etc., and the ones that don't really fit the setting), and only pay attention to the really highly developed ideas that fit the setting and Talad's ideas (and, of course, the settings team would have free license to change whatever, which should go without saying, but doesn't always), and then Talad looked over and approved them, it wouldn't change much from now (especially if >1 year of playing, setting dev approval, and at least 1 good idea that fits the setting was required).

Problems: Number of >1 year people will increase over time as Planeshift gets more players (hopefully more settings devs and the like, though)
Creates more stress, especially initially, on the jobs of settings Devs if they have to think of ideas, review people who've been active for a year and shown interest in contributing
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Pizzasgood on April 26, 2007, 04:58:33 am: Okay, maybe some of these look like wishlist items. But the question was how could users contribute content in-game, so this list is what I came up with. I'm not asking for this stuff to be included, just offering ideas. Many of them aren't remotely feasible at the moment, and may never be. But I'll post them anyway, because you never know, and they could trigger some thought process leading to something similar that is feasible.

Sketching in the sand would be cool. Kind of an non-portable impromptu thing needing no supplies. Of course, I haven't messed with the new sketch/map stuff, so maybe they don't need supplies either and I just don't know it. But considering I haven't seen a "make map" button, I believe you do need either materials, training, or some NPC interaction. Drawing in the sand however, wouldn't. It would just be really simple, temporary, and non portable. Probably you'd have to actually right-click, view it rather than just look at the ground.

Custom clothing would be interesting. The level of customization could vary from just dying the whole thing some shade to adding intricate embroidery and custom logos. Depending on how much detail we could add, worrying about OOC stuff may not even be necessary. Painting on shields would be cool too. Then you could have a coat of arms. Oh, and flags too.

Custom drinks/potions? I know there are strength potions, though I have no idea how they're made. I'm assuming it's a rather simple combination of stuff. But what if many small items had certain properties, so you could just mix random stuff and come up with something? Like, if you use apple juice, it's an apple-juice drink, and helps your stamina a little. But then you could add a little bit of potion to it to have it help your hp too. It's like in real life, where adding ingredients will have subtle effects, possibly both bad and good. Increases strength but hurts endurance, for example. Then add something that helps endurance but hurts mana. And they'd all effect it in varying amounts. If you've ever played Harvest Moon and tried cooking, you probably know what I mean. Come to think of it, this could apply to cooking in general, though in that case it would need some pre-defined dishes and your ingredients would tweak it, again much like in Harvest Moon.

The shear number of possibilities would mean the item itself couldn't be classified as "such and such potion", so you'd have to label it yourself. You could label it whatever you want, like "Toomin's Rat-Shroom Soup", or even mis-label it if you're feeling mischievous. The color could also vary based on what you add, giving a slight visual clue to the contents but nothing really descriptive. "Is this tomato beer or blood beer? Hmmm...."

On a side note, that could lead to a new "profession" within PlaneShift: being a food tester, to make sure nobody's trying to poison your employer. At the moment, you'd just get sent to the DR if it's deadly, then come back. But in the future, I hear that it might take much longer to escape the DR, so preventing a rich guy from wasting his time there could be a lucritive process, and it wouldn't have the risk of (permanent) death like it does in real life.

When music comes in, how about composing? I don't know how it's going to be implemented, but what about a "manual" mode where you can create a tune, and the you could store it on some parchment to be played back in "automatic" mode. You could distribute it to other people that way. Maybe make them play it manually from the sheet music before they can do it automatically, but I'd say don't bother and make the accuracy based on their char's musical abilities. Otherwise untalented players playing a talented character would be in trouble.

A custom stride would be cool, but that's much to complicated to happen anytime soon. What could happen is a custom speed though. You set how fast you run and walk and sneak (and it burns the correct amount of energy too, so you can't just max out without the consequences). That would add a little more variety to the people wandering around, allowing player/character preferences to contribute to the realism a little.

Along those lines, custom faces would also be nice, though I assume it's been mentioned to death already.

I assume there will be room for stylistic changes when house owning/building comes in. Building from the ground up, hanging tapestries, that kind of thing. Again, probably done to death so I won't bother to expand on it.

Another method for user contributions is sculpting. When houses and land-ownership are implemented, people are going to want statues and stuff to decorate them with, or to put up a memorial or whatever. So there could be sculpting to create custom statues. That may be too much to add though, unless you make them "sculpt" it outside the game in Blender, then try to get it approved and in game. Along with that would go painting, of course, for those who prefer mostly 2d (paintings often have a slight third dimension when seen up close, due to thick paint. Gives them texture).

I imaging farming will one day be added, thus building fences and fields where you choose. That's a good way to "get out of" having to do so much map design for some of those long stretches between cities. Just make it empty plains and rolling hills, then let the farmers fill it up with content for you ;)

This one's probably further off, but active paths. As in, when people walk by (or pull a cart, when those come in) it harms the grass a little. If the same path is taken, the ground gets bare. Otherwise, it heals itself over time. That would allow paths to create and then drift around as the landscape changes (as in, a new town gets built, so the path eventually bends by it rather than it's old course). That could also aid in tracking things/people, if they left foot prints for a while. And blood trails. Also, maybe the roaming herds of mobs that will one day exist will create or follow paths too. So if you're wandering the wilderness, you might stumble onto a "cowpath" left by some herd, or if mobs come to a new area, they might take advantage of the existing trail and wander near town (they'd likely stay out due to the activity, but it depends on the mob and the town).

Okay, I'm running out of ideas now, so I'll shut up for a while :-X
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Ralleyon on April 26, 2007, 08:37:41 am: Quote from: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 25, 2007, 08:38:34 pm
The current state of player access to internal artwork or settings documents will not likely change.

Can we expand the conversation to cover also some more content generation that is not at the dev level?

Like things the players might like to be able to generate within the game?

Okay then. To put it simple, we would like systems to allow us to create things in game, not necessarily directly. If those systems can be created so that they don't require much dev supervision, all the better!

The part with the artwork and documentation provided is kind of sad :(, but it's not your decision to make, so no blame put on your shoulders.

As for a specific (and short) wishlist from me, with regard to user generated content, I would like to be able to write books, letters, self journal (not only quest related) in game. The last one could be stored locally like the quest journal now, as for the other two they'd have to be server objects.

Would they need review? There was a heated debate on it not long ago, but I'd say NO. With a proper quest in order to get something done in that area, it would be even harder to abuse. Users can read them and report them to a GM or dev.

I really, really, really wish that development & contributions wouldn't be hampered so much by the fear of abuse.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: LARAGORN on April 26, 2007, 01:39:48 pm: To keep contributions from being too non PS in the styles, the Dev team could put together an 'Official Texture package'. With the dream of owning a building one day, artists can create their interior models using accepted textures. This will unite the varrying styles into a PS feel. Since the background of the races vary, there could be different packages based on the materials each would use. The same can be used for exterior models aswell; with the farming and guild houses in mind, packages can be created to reflect the resources availible for construction.

In-Game suggestion: Mine is not new, but I would like to have a way to advertize. There are a few ways that this could be done;

1- bulliten board, This could be free or pay-to-post, with set posting time length. Posts could be up for a week, and if the poster does not remove it before the deadline, they are fined 50 tria.....

2- Official town cryer, for a fee, the cryer will spread your notice to all in the town. One in each town. for a higher fee your notice can be deliverd to every area, from the Crystal down to the seas below.

3- Community NewsPaper, Articles, adds and the like. A free press or a small fee. This would be a great way to learn about Guild wars, criminals, articles for sale and any events comming up.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: minetus on April 26, 2007, 02:36:19 pm: Quote from: Ralleyon on April 26, 2007, 08:37:41 am
Okay then. To put it simple, we would like systems to allow us to create things in game, not necessarily directly. If those systems can be created so that they don't require much dev supervision, all the better!

well, im all for it :D

this would also void duplication,
and if possible create multiuser created content (example: 2 or more players editing same thing [ image/model/text ] )
a supervision of the content system could be made ingame to keep things under control.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Induane on April 26, 2007, 02:58:07 pm: Man a whole host of fantastic ideas! I came in today planning on spending time mucking about with a huge list of cool ingame user contributed features I wanted to see but found most had been posted already, many far more eloquently than I would have done it.

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To keep contributions from being too non PS in the styles, the Dev team could put together an 'Official Texture package'. With the dream of owning a building one day, artists can create their interior models using accepted textures. This will unite the varying styles into a PS feel. Since the background of the races vary, there could be different packages based on the materials each would use. The same can be used for exterior models as well; with the farming and guild houses in mind, packages can be created to reflect the resources available for construction.

I've suggested this to devs before... well as packages of "building parts" (similar idea though) but it would appear that they simply don't have the time, motivation, or desire to do so. The general feeling I get is that they want people building their own houses when the code is ready for them to do it in game, and only then. I've considered the idea there could be a sort of map area where these out of game designed homes and buildings could be placed in a way, sort of as a test of sorts, merging in with the story wouldn't be bad - there have to be new settlements from time to time, and if we'll be able to build houses later on, towns will spring up anyways so if its in the works the "this town isn't in the settings" argument stops holding water in my opinion. I have the necessary skills to pull it off and would happily manage it. Its not going to happen though.

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The part with the artwork and documentation provided is kind of sad Sad, but it's not your decision to make, so no blame put on your shoulders.

That was directed at Xillix I believe. I agree. Sad, but out of your hands I'd imagine so no hard feelings. I just get excited anytime I her any kind of post, particularly by a dev, which seems to suggest that the community can be valuable outside the game as well as inside when it comes to art and map contributions. I keep giving up on contributing, then I get hope, then its crushed, back and forth back and forth.

I guess its hard to look at a project of the scale of PlaneShift, and look at the opportunities it has and the creativity of the wonderful community that sprung up around it and see the communities ability to contribute in some ways intentionally stamped out and down. People often say the work isn't good enough in the fan art forums... but ... I've seen work in several places that was far higher in quality than some of the places in PlaneShift - not even competition. I could point to several threads and posts, of work that isn't just good, its often higher than much of PS. That argument just doesn't hold water. I find myself sitting on the outside and looking in at a project surrounded by people with a desire to help and contribute, and watch a wall between those people and official devs. In some places the walls are getting thinner, in others they are actively being added to. No need for our help, no need to use the vast resources available - its too hard to let the contribute art. Its not good enough. Its too much work for us. We like it all secret so we can surprise everyone.... heck I'd be surprised if I'd kill one of minetus' rats but I still haven't seen one, nor that weird undead robo rat.

I guess it just feels to me like community contributions in the form of several types of art are intentionally made difficult and discouraged. I see people come and leave, people who could have made valuable contributions, which tells me a closed model in this way is negative and harmful to the project. Its like building a huge house but intentionally shooting some volunteers because they weren't on your volunteer list.

Ahh well, at least I tried. I'm done though.

Edit:

P.S.

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well, im all for it Cheesy

this would also void duplication,
and if possible create multiuser created content (example: 2 or more players editing same thing [ image/model/text ] )
a supervision of the content system could be made ingame to keep things under control.

Minetus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D

I'll jump into planeshift-build channel - stop by and see me!
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Josellis on April 27, 2007, 10:24:07 am: wow, this thread has developed a lot since I last saw it yesterday, anyway.

I must say, I totally agree with Induane on the fact that there seems to be only a small circle of people who can really contribute, and this small circle of people won't accept anything else that isn't their own, and to get into that group is even harder. This impairs greatly the possible contributions the public can do.

What I thought would be possible is to have a subforum in fan art for Art Submissions. In this section there would be information on the expectations, requirements, and all the other stuff concerning art. I think it has been mentioned earlier that the DEVs and/or GMs are already overloaded with stuff to do, yes and? GMs try to control things that happen in the game and DEVs work on the project. Neither have in their description "Art Approvers". So why not create a new group of art approvers? They would of course need to be familiar with both art and PS and when they see artwork that has some potential, they can just forward it to the art team.

For the ingame contributions, I am totally for! I am really looking forward for books. Of course, with any text contribution, "there is the risk of this feature being abused", and yes, there is a risk that pornographic, xenophobic and vulgar content can be put in the books, but people can also say it in theses forums and in the ingame chat. So I believe a simple button such as "Report this book/text" would do the job without being too complicated and invasive.

For the NPCs being able to learn from players, I believe it would be great, but very hard to implement such a system, since it would require a lot of coding (why do you think commercial games do not have intelligent NPCs when they already have 200 hundreds coders working full time?).

For the custom built houses, why not make a set of houses, which the model cannot be modified and then have a set of textures which can be applied onto it? So if somewhere wants a lounge room made of black wood, they just have to apply the texture. I do not think it will be any problem there since I am nearly sure that the textures aren't included with the model, and therefore, one model and have several textural possibilities. Having said this, those different textures should also apply to other things such as custom made objects. Players will then be able to choose a particular pattern on their sword (and maybe even a unique texture only usable by the character).

Ok, well I think that's all for now
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Raleigh on April 27, 2007, 10:50:32 am: Quote from: Josellis on April 27, 2007, 10:24:07 am
and to get into that group is even harder. This impairs greatly the possible contributions the public can do.

After I readed the requirements for joining the PS team, I got the impression it was an announcement for a job(it simply lacked graduations as requirements to be like one), it is not directly involved here, but I do not think that not having 2 or more years of experience as a PnP GM/DM means somebody is a bad writer for a RPG for example. Perhaps if such requirements were loosened a little bit...

Quote from: Josellis on April 27, 2007, 10:24:07 am
For the NPCs being able to learn from players, I believe it would be great, but very hard to implement such a system, since it would require a lot of coding (why do you think commercial games do not have intelligent NPCs when they already have 200 hundreds coders working full time?).

How many customers of these commercial games like roleplaying to the point they would prefer intelligent NPCs to 200 new "1337 Itemz"?
That's why they won't invest in such thing, most of their customers just want to powerlevel and PK and care very little about NPCs, 'cept for doing quests to get more "1337 stuff". But honestly, this would be better if putted in the end of the "What should be done in the next 15 years" list. AI development isn't a walk on the park.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Ralleyon on April 27, 2007, 12:25:45 pm: Devs do reply and accept contributions, it's not a closed circle because they want it that way. I suspect most of the time it also happens that they don't have the time to dedicate to reviewing what they get. That's why we need systems built for us so we can contribute - either in game or out of it like some editors. Some contributions do not require editors though, so consider what you want and what you can do...

I think that it's a closed circle for another reason - the development model chosen for certain parts of the project - which only the director can change.

Can we get back on creative ideas regarding how to contribute? Induane already talked about a very nice system, I'd love to hear more of that sort. And I bet Xillix would too.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Idoru on April 27, 2007, 01:34:48 pm: I dont blame the Devs for automatically assuming that player contributions will be rubbish, I would guess that they get sent alot of stuff by people who have no idea what they are doing and who think their skills are far more advanced than they really are. (I got this impression from seeing some people in #planeshift who obviously had no idea what they were doing and still wanted to be Devs X-/)

Maybe people should be encouraged to create personal portfolios of work in the fan art section (as some do) and if a Dev sees something that is very good (some of it is fantastic IMO, and some not so good unfortunatly) then they should poke the contributor in question and offer them a task (something that could be included in game if of sufficient quality). Based on that tasks quality they could then encourage them to apply to be a Dev (encourage with advice and support).

I think this system would work nicely except my only reservation would be the extra workload that it would put on the Devs. But maybe it would infact reduce workload if people were instructed not to send art directly to Devs but to post only in portfolios. Obviously the work they post wouldnt be accepted into the game in itself but it would be a decent stepping stone.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Nikodemus on April 27, 2007, 02:03:15 pm: Yeah, devs do accept stuff, but they don't have time most of the time, this would have to change. Maybe dev team should look also for people who would care about the contributors, would have time for them and could commit the contributions? Obviously they can't ask Talad every time, but if a dev could check them from time to time, if he detected an unacceptable, contributed mistake, this means that the person maybe shouldn't have the job.

Devs really should look for people who would be capable of dealng with the contributors. There is a simple gui fix of mine waiting to be contributed, since almost half a year, yet i don't get a reply it is being contributed and i don't see it in the changelog.

A portfolio everyone can look into and give tips, for the work, why not.
A place where people would learn all the stuff they need to know, to make contributions compatible with what PS already have. Just like Induane wrote, you don't know what CS properties your stuff should have. You barely know something, that your mesh should have faces and texture it, but modelling is someting much more. If you do stuff and a dev will start changing the CS properties to make it compatible, he most likely mess something up, something you would do better as creator.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 27, 2007, 03:27:19 pm: I am all for this portfolio business. Someone start one with their work! I suggest doing it with a single post per portfolio and a separate thread for comments on the porfolios.

Some good thoughts here. Later posters be sure to read the whole thread as there is extensive thought given to what is already present.

I would like more ideas here and more opinions I am still looking for a eureka moment that i do not see yet. :devil:
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Induane on April 27, 2007, 03:42:50 pm: Quote
Yeah, devs do accept stuff, but they don't have time most of the time, this would have to change. Maybe dev team should look also for people who would care about the contributors, would have time for them and could commit the contributions? Obviously they can't ask Talad every time, but if a dev could check them from time to time, if he detected an unacceptable, contributed mistake, this means that the person maybe shouldn't have the job.

I've offered to do all that work myself. Either they don't trust me to make a decision like that and need someone more "respectable" or they don't want a position like that to exist. I've suggested various means of contribution and offered to do all of the managing and filtering work myself. My website is part of that effort, a place where one can hopefully learn a few skills that can aid them when they want to contribute. That said, its build guides get used more than anything so hopefully all that other work isn't wasted.

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Devs really should look for people who would be capable of dealng with the contributors. There is a simple gui fix of mine waiting to be contributed, since almost half a year, yet i don't get a reply it is being contributed and i don't see it in the changelog.

The community really could use a liaison between them and the developers. I wouldn't be much useful for code stuff, just art, but I'm sure there are others who are multi-talented.

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I dont blame the Devs for automatically assuming that player contributions will be rubbish, I would guess that they get sent alot of stuff by people who have no idea what they are doing and who think their skills are far more advanced than they really are.

Yep, thats why there needs to be an intermediary between the devs and community. I still think a site, partially integrated with the forums, or at least well interlinked, with one or more people managing it is the best idea.

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Maybe people should be encouraged to create personal portfolios of work in the fan art section (as some do) and if a Dev sees something that is very good (some of it is fantastic IMO, and some not so good unfortunatly) then they should poke the contributor in question and offer them a task (something that could be included in game if of sufficient quality). Based on that tasks quality they could then encourage them to apply to be a Dev (encourage with advice and support).

Isn't that pretty much how it is now? It just isn't done much. Besides, it still doesn't address the issue of forum created art = unusable. This is the biggest detriment in my opinion. People who do art find outside criticism useful (and sometimes frustrating), and as such being able to work on your things in the public arena IMPROVES the quality of the work.

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Obviously the work they post wouldn't be accepted into the game in itself but it would be a decent stepping stone.

Good art shouldn't only be a stepping stone. Thats saying its useless except for getting developer attention. Besides, all this still leads to people becoming devs. Some of us do not WANT to be official devs, we just want to play the game and contribute on our own time, free of a job. The application makes it seem like a real job. I don't want another job, I want to contribute in my free time. Both should be allowed.

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Devs do reply and accept contributions, it's not a closed circle because they want it that way. I suspect most of the time it also happens that they don't have the time to dedicate to reviewing what they get. That's why we need systems built for us so we can contribute - either in game or out of it like some editors. Some contributions do not require editors though, so consider what you want and what you can do...

Well said!

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I think that it's a closed circle for another reason - the development model chosen certain parts of the project - which only the director can change.

Nailed the problem right on the head. I couldn't agree more.

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Can we get back on creative ideas regarding how to contribute? Induane already talked about a very nice system, I'd love to hear more of that sort. And I bet Xillix would too.

Similar to the method I outlined for art contribution, you could do something similar with the settings portion. A list of tasks, where people can submit stories/tales/quests/etc... with some outline information, and what needs fleshed out. Submissions could be reviewed for quality, or voted on or rated. Higher rated stuff would float to the top and be easier for the settings devs to spot. Have a page for each thing that needs work, and all submissions go below that. It would be necessary to open up more of the story though. Same thing really as for the art, but you can imagine that its easily adaptable for setting too. Lets grow this world together as a community!

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and to get into that group is even harder. This impairs greatly the possible contributions the public can do.

Really the fact that its hard/impossible to contribute without being in that "group" is the real problem.

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2- Official town cryer, for a fee, the cryer will spread your notice to all in the town. One in each town. for a higher fee your notice can be deliverd to every area, from the Crystal down to the seas below.

This isn't a bad idea but it is also one that could be performed by players just as well :) Might be a fun job.

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What I thought would be possible is to have a subforum in fan art for Art Submissions. In this section there would be information on the expectations, requirements, and all the other stuff concerning art. I think it has been mentioned earlier that the DEVs and/or GMs are already overloaded with stuff to do, yes and? GMs try to control things that happen in the game and DEVs work on the project. Neither have in their description "Art Approvers". So why not create a new group of art approvers? They would of course need to be familiar with both art and PS and when they see artwork that has some potential, they can just forward it to the art team.

I agree, but I understand this would be tough to do. I'm a settings and art developer for a different game these days so I understand that you feel a bit protective of your work, and when you want something done you don't want to delegate that task to someone only to find out their idea of what you wanted wasn't perfectly accurate. I've learned to bite the bullet though, because no one can go it alone. Being so protective of things sort of makes you a dictator of your self created world, and I'm not certain that thats the best way to build a game where the contributors are volunteers. It also can make you come across as rude or uninterested in what others think - its easy to do.

Its easy to play dictator, especially when you can, but it takes real character to admit you can't do everything alone.

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I am all for this portfolio business. Someone start one with their work! I suggest doing it with a single post per portfolio and a separate thread for comments on the porfolios.

As I said above, the fan art section is already sort of like this. A sub-forum for portfolios only wouldn't be a bad idea but it doesn't address user contributions if you are only looking for potential developers. As I said before, not every volunteer wants an unpaid job with assignments and deadlines.

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Some good thoughts here. Later posters be sure to read the whole thread as there is extensive thought given to what is already present.

:D Definitely. Heck I've been with it from the beginning and I'm still having a hard time keeping up. Thank goodness for firefox tabs for quick review!

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I would like more ideas here and more opinions I am still looking for a eureka moment that i do not see yet.

EUREKA!! EUREKA!! EUREKA!! EUREKA!! EUREKA!! EUREKA!! EUREKA!!!!!

^ will that do?

I honestly don't think you are going to get that. The policies in place are pretty restrictive and you don't have control over that. Talad and Vengeance seem to be the final arbitrators as far as that goes and I'm fairly certain Talad is not willing to change his policy of art contributions and settings contributions. For a Eureka moment, you need to be able to be flexible policy wise. The problem is the policy, not the ideas about contribution. Given enough discussion and effort that could all be ironed out. The POLICY is the problem, not you, your brain, me, my brain, or any of us. The ideas are good, the available manpower is there. People are willing, but the policy is not. There can be no EUREKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if nothing can change!
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Idoru on April 27, 2007, 03:53:26 pm: Quote
Why is it useless except for getting dev attention

Because, as you also point out about other things, the policy on publicly viewed art is extremely restrictive. The only current way to get art in the game is to keep it very quiet and to send it direct to a Dev (some people are not even comfortable with doing that without a bit of poking) and even then it appears to be an uphill struggle for that particular Dev to get the submission included.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Induane on April 27, 2007, 03:56:06 pm: Twas a typo. Not even sure where that "why" came in. Fixed now.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 27, 2007, 05:26:33 pm: Nothing is carved in stone.

The devs are not some leet secret society conspiring to make it difficult to submit work.

Those applying these days will find the process much more accessible than in the past so long as their quality is good.

PS Deving is not a job, it is a hobby, i can play as much as I want, I just find deving a whole lot more fun.

Opposition to the director or the policy however nicely framed is not wellness :P

Induane, I think we have very some good things going in this thread but i do not want to see it bogged down in repetition.

We have seen a flood of art submissions through the link Karyuu posted.

As for those who would like to commit settings material send me a pm or speak to me on irc.

I think people seem to be missing some things on the recruitment page:

CONTRIBUTOR:

To be a contributor you must simply send an e-mail to the leader of the department in which you want to contribute. The BIG difference with members, is that you will have more loose deadlines on the work you should complete and obviously also lesser benefits in the game. The skills required are the same as the members, listed below in the description of each department.

This means instead of doing self directed work (and likely being rejected) you seek the director of a department and ask them what you can work on.

for art if Talad is not available Karyuu or Cherppow are very friendly and helpful and will very likely aid you in the process.

a final note on settings and art policy

--it is profoundly successful--

I really am still holding out for a eureka moment.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: bilbous on April 27, 2007, 06:03:22 pm: For eureka moments, we need bathtubs.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Durwyn on April 27, 2007, 06:23:01 pm: Hello.
i was going to make another topic but i think this one is good for my idea. im going to try modeling some items as "ground banners" if you understand this. and here comes my questions : 1) can i use any modeler program or do i have to use a specific one?
2) do i have to respect some "caracteristic" for the item? i mean like size or so.

Thank you in advance, Durwyn , alias Dudu.
[img=http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8976/screen1kg1.th.jpg] (http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen1kg1.jpg)
edit : read the reply from Karyuu and it seems my word of "banner" wasnt the good one to use :s i hope this scanned sheet will give you the idea of what im thinking. (if so, tell me the right word for it so i wont be more stupid as im now lol ^^ )

edit 2 : http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9751/b00000001fh2.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9751/b00000001fh2.jpg) here i made a little thing. that doenst looks like the precedent pic but its the same idea. i just need to know if the "magic" distorsion, which will be above the item, is possible to be added? and a little levitation from the ground. so that he moves from up to down or vice versa. if its possible, what sort of program would you advise me? im working with Wings 3D.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 27, 2007, 06:24:58 pm: /me installs a tub in the thread

Quote from: Karyuu on April 25, 2007, 06:39:32 pm
To those talking about a lack of art contributions, you seem to have missed the Submitting Models (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28282.0) thread entirely! Please take a look at it before you continue. I have already received a good amount of artsy content from someone not on the dev team that I will be trying to get into the game. Don't be too hasty to presume that contribution is as closed to you as it may have been when you just arrived here.

Durwyn read this before posting here.

Seriously people read the whole thread, I will call that gods of thunder and lightning down upon you if you sully this thread with laziness.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Durwyn on April 27, 2007, 06:30:19 pm: Quote from: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 27, 2007, 06:24:58 pm
/me installs a tub in the thread

Quote from: Karyuu on April 25, 2007, 06:39:32 pm
To those talking about a lack of art contributions, you seem to have missed the Submitting Models (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28282.0) thread entirely! Please take a look at it before you continue. I have already received a good amount of artsy content from someone not on the dev team that I will be trying to get into the game. Don't be too hasty to presume that contribution is as closed to you as it may have been when you just arrived here.

Durwyn read this before posting here.

well perhaps Karyuu is right : :-[ thank you :)
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Karyuu on April 27, 2007, 06:30:32 pm: Hello Durwyn,

You can use any modeling application you like. Talad uses 3ds max and exchanges .max files primarily with those who use the program as well, but for anything else you will have to export .obj files to show him for final approval. Just make sure whatever program you use has that format to save with, and you should be fine.

Any item can be resized to fit inside the world if it's too big, so don't worry about measurement - worry more about proportion :) (Like a poll that's too small for the banner it carries, etc.) Remember to keep the polycount low - 200-400 triangles is a guideline you should follow as strictly as you can. Model smart: if you can save polygons without changing too much of the object shape, save them. A lot of the detail comes from the texture, not the geometry. When it comes to texture size, 256x256 or 512x512 will be sufficient.

Good luck!

*edited to reply after image link*

I think banner is still the appropriate word for that object :] Remember to consider its future context: where is it going to be placed? What is its use, and how will its patterns and colors reflect that? Put thought into every item you create and give it a home before you begin your modeling. I don't know if you have answered all these questions for yourself already, but it never hurts to remind others.

*edit*

Artists looking to contribute!
Read this thread (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28502.0)!
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Irri on April 28, 2007, 11:32:54 am: Player-created housing could both expand Hydlaa's neighborhoods and provide user-generated content, /and/ provide a place for storage of items. I have been playing A Tale in the Desert and one can create, modify, maintain, share, donate and destroy buildings in the game (provided you've learned the skills you need and have materials available of course). Obviously, it is no small task to create such a system, but it has several nice benefits.

/me votes for cozy Utlics on the plains around Ojaveda.

And art! ATitD has public sculpture too. I'd be pleased to see woodcarving become possible in PlaneShift. Gather wood, apply carving tools, possibly choose one model your skill level lets you attempt? Or you could get more involved and actually sculpt. ATitD's smithing system actually has you hammer on a 3D block of iron to try and achieve a good blade. The closer your result matches an ideal form, the higher its quality.

I am talking about ATitD a lot- it's not a bad place, but I am mostly playing it to explore the interesting approaches it has to some crafting and other systems. I've yet to find much in the way of Roleplaying going on there- PlaneShift seems to be #1 for that!
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Nikodemus on April 28, 2007, 12:10:35 pm: Quote from: Xillix Queen of Fools on April 27, 2007, 05:26:33 pm
CONTRIBUTOR:

To be a contributor you must simply send an e-mail to the leader of the department in which you want to contribute. The BIG difference with members, is that you will have more loose deadlines on the work you should complete and obviously also lesser benefits in the game. The skills required are the same as the members, listed below in the description of each department.
I believe this should maybe change, if i got it right
What if one want to contribute something what the team did not ask for? He found out it would be good for the game in general, or needs to contribute something of his character/guild history, for it to start make sense,[EDIT], for it to become "real". Just like any NPC may have the history and placeses associated to it.[/EDIT] Is it still next to near impossible? ;)

Also, I gues it is not actually about e0mailing, but PM... IRC will do the job too (wrong?)

Sorry for no eureka moment ;P
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Cherppow on April 30, 2007, 11:49:37 am: Hi,

An interesting discussion. Personally I have a bit of mixed feelings about this. I would surely like to see PS grow faster, but on the other hand allowing unrestricted contributions can result in less dev applications. Who would choose to work under schedule and assigned tasks (as a developer), when you can work at your own pace, and pick the tasks yourself (as a contibutor)? In the worst case, the existing devs might decide to resign and continue as contributors, leaving the "dependable workforce" too small to review the growing number of freelance contributions. Well, I hope that I am wrong here.

Ps. What comes to players creating minor content, writing books, modeling items, creating gui skins, sending bug fixes... I fully support that. Earlier is about more major features.

Regards,
- Cherppow
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: LARAGORN on April 30, 2007, 01:50:04 pm: I understand your point Cherppow, but I see it a little differently. If I had the level of tallent needed to be a contributor, I would still apply to the Dev team. Even with others contributing an item here and there, I would still want to be part of the official team and work on specific items at specific times. I dont think I am the only one either. Being dedicated to the whole of PS as a member of the Dev team is very different from being dedicated to a single item. Accepting a position on the team, is an acceptance of structure, knowing that you will have to work on what is assigned, as stated above, and this shows a good deal about ones character and dedication. I do believe that there are many here that would gladly take on that responsability.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Asraniel on May 01, 2007, 04:50:13 pm: there could be a todo list of non important things, like, new sword, new hammer, new skin, or a new not very interesting monster. Things that arent as important that the devs want to keep them as a surprise.
People could submit proposals in a wiki or whatever for those todos, and the devs can decide which one they take (they dont have to pick one, but if one is good enough, they can).
If they see that somebody is very talented and invest much time in creating good artwork for those TODOs and gets them ingame, they could ask this artist if he wants to join the team.
There are so many ways for a much more open way to develop this game, whitout talad losing control and withou spoiling the fun for the players.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Karyuu on May 01, 2007, 05:50:17 pm: Asraniel, something of the sort has already begun. If you would but take a look at our "What the Team needs from You" thread in the Fanart section...
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on May 01, 2007, 08:59:33 pm: niko let us decide for now what the game needs we are not at a state of readiness for autonomous decisions based on personal bias. it may well come in time, i think anyone can see this thread already generated a step forward in this regard. If this iteration works out well there may be room for broader possibilities in the future. I hope you and induane both sense a feeling of progress in relation to Karyuu and my efforts to open the doors for some more user generated work.

Asraniel, had you read the whole thread which it is incumbant on any poster to do, you would know the answer to your question without Karyuu having to reiterate.

@everyone else do not enter into this discussion as a passerby many players and a couple devs have discussed the issue at length with some fine points, do not disregard this because you are of short attention span.

I think we had a bit of a eureka moment and that satifies me at this stage of development. \\o//
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Nikodemus on May 02, 2007, 01:34:26 am: Quote from: Xillix Queen of Fools on May 01, 2007, 08:59:33 pm
niko let us decide for now what the game needs we are not at a state of readiness for autonomous decisions based on personal bias.
Of course, no one want to turn the setting into chaos. It must be consistent and what players offer can't be completly out of place, it must have logical links with the rest.

What's done so far is indeed a step forward! Although with the congrats i will wait till i see this stuff in game ;) I suppse everyone can understand my carefulness.
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: wither on May 02, 2007, 06:40:09 am: There are alot of great ideas floating around this thread, as well as in the wishlist. I think one thing to be weary of though, is to not turn all of PS into one great big virtual rubbish dump, like 2nd Life. There needs to be some sort of policing of ingame user generated material, or some restrictions on what you can do with them. For example, a great idea was wood sculpting, great idea, i would enjoy doing that ingame, but, will you end up with 500 crap sculptures that nobody wants?

An idea would be, is to have bins in the cities, they look like bins, they work like bins, basically a PS recycle bin, rather than litter the ground with unwanted stuff like these sculptures, or anything else for that matter, drop it in the recycle bin and presto, instant delete of that item. Cuts down on not only crap all over the ground, but takes items out of the game, so cuts down on server load as well, maybe not alot, but in the long run, a big difference.

Im not a coder, so i dont know if its possible, in my head, seems it should be.

How do we get people to use the bins i hear you ask? Well, glad you did ask. The restriction on any user generated object on game could be that it cant be dropped anywhere, but in a recycle bin.

Just a thought anyway, my main concern is that I wouldnt want PS turning out like 2nd Life, far to much user generated 'crap' in that game.

Cheers...
Title: Re: User generated content and PS
Post by: Asraniel on May 02, 2007, 08:39:31 am: Quote from: Karyuu on May 01, 2007, 05:50:17 pm
Asraniel, something of the sort has already begun. If you would but take a look at our "What the Team needs from You" thread in the Fanart section...

congratulations! now just everybody has to be informed correctly :-) ah i'm so happy, that is exactly what i was thinking. :thumbup: :thumbup: