PlaneShift
Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: Nikodemus on April 24, 2007, 11:38:55 pm
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This was originally wrote there (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28458.0) But to avoid off topic, i asked to move it there, hope you won't mind people ;P
You know guys and girls, you complain at his idea of creating somethign what doesn't belong to PS setting and game reality . Of course, his idea is doomed on IC failure, but look at your guilds, at your stories for a second.
Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?
Hell no!!
NPCs won't say a word about you. Places which are important in your story don't exist at all, or you claim so, that you own something what was never what you describe.
The current policy of things to go in PS is exactly like this and you really can't be sure this will ever change. We are mean't to have guildhouses in future, but this is valing only to guilds like fighters, mages, crafters and such (guilds exactly as they were in medieval times). 90% of current guilds are different, you all know the topic well.
Even the Vespers of Laanx, they don't belong there. Laanx already have its temple with NPCs inside, who know nothing about this "guild", None of these NPC will treat them any better than any other person.
All you can do is wait as the devs do the wole stuff for you, because you can't change the setting, make places story. While it is so needed for your guild, the setting is already written and it is obvious that if you want your guild to be IC, your guild story needs to go int setting. I'm not talking there about anything big, just some space in the world.
By making a character you are changing the setting as from this point there is e.g. new smith, noone may care about, yet it is part of the setting.
But you aren't allowed to do it with your guild.
Knowledge Seekers, if I remember well, you wanted to have an university. You wouldn't get it
Arcane Order and their tower, i doubt it would happen (maybe they should be happy they are no more..)
All the guilds playing guards, you wouldn't get any features permitting you to really do your job, because what if you would freak out? terrible disaster... eh.
I'm hearng this all the time here ad there. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, you can have places which really these places. There is easy way to prove it
A guild after a guild is disappearing, RPing guilds! People who planned to stay for longer. No wonder they are leaving if whatever they come up with won't go in game.
There is huge bell ringing at the tower with a little helpless guy screeming for help
Anyone besides me hear it?
I know that maybe it isn't best topic for such a post, but maybe someone should really read it and think on the problem? Like Talad? I don't know
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Just some comments, really its all off topic though
Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?
Is what your saying by that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that any guild who "creates" a history or background story that they do not rp out beforehand is invalid because the only background story is the one in the settings? If you think about it from a view that this world is "real" there are many things that happen without everyone in the world knowing about it. When I think about a guilds history (really refering to my own) I think about the unheard stories in the world, the ones that few know if any. No one, whether ncp or player, can say they have seen everything and know everything. Does this mean that every story is true? No and it doesn't mean each one exactly fits. Some stories are too big for them to go unnoticed but some are low key, easily able to happen without a great amount of people learning of it.
NPCs won't say a word about you. Places which are important in your story don't exist at all, or you claim so, that you own something what was never what you describe.
The current policy of things to go in PS is exactly like this and you really can't be sure this will ever change. We are mean't to have guildhouses in future, but this is valing only to guilds like fighters, mages, crafters and such (guilds exactly as they were in medieval times). 90% of current guilds are different, you all know the topic well.
Even the Vespers of Laanx, they don't belong there. Laanx already have its temple with NPCs inside, who know nothing about this "guild", None of these NPC will treat them any better than any other person.
All you can do is wait as the devs do the wole stuff for you, because you can't change the setting, make places story. While it is so needed for your guild, the setting is already written and it is obvious that if you want your guild to be IC, your guild story needs to go int setting. I'm not talking there about anything big, just some space in the world.
By making a character you are changing the setting as from this point there is e.g. new smith, noone may care about, yet it is part of the setting.
But you aren't allowed to do it with your guild.
As players we can never say whether or not NCP's will acknoledge our presence in the world for the fact that we can not control them. However, it can be assumed that NCP's (if you are treating them as actual people living in the "world") do notice us as well as our many guilds for the fact that we talk around them, talk to them (while questing), and do busniess with them (through buy/selling and training). Not saying you can say "This NCP is my friend" but they know we are here. Does this mean that "The Vespers of Laanx" will get noticed by NCP members of the church? Of course they will but their power over the church truely only can be limited to a more "volunteer" service less the NCP's allowed more (And I could be wrong). Also its very possible for many of the places people rp to have been to are real. There are places and things in the world even Laanx and Talad don't understand or haven't been too. The stone labyrinths are an example of a place and the portals from which different races came from as a thing. Am I saying one can have a huge city or kingdom as a place in their story? No, that would exceede the eventual limits of the land of Ylikuam but it can be assumed that there were smaller villages within the wild lands. For example I could, if granted enough people, start a village on the Oja Road ingame. Would it be recognized by the goverment of Yliakum? I doubt it because its small but truely its not possible for me to predict the actions of Yliakums goverment.
Arcane Order and their tower, i doubt it would happen (maybe they should be happy they are no more..)
Tower's could possibly happen because according to the website we will eventually be able to own our own castles in future developments.
Of course, his idea is doomed on IC failure
I disagree :o. And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds. Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild.
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You know guys and girls, you complain at his idea of creating somethign what doesn't belong to PS setting and game reality . Of course, his idea is doomed on IC failure, but look at your guilds, at your stories for a second.
Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?
::) I know of at least two guilds whose story isn't about Great battles fought long ago and crap like that: sAsL (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28125.0) and Alethiea (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27202.0) ( :'( still a bit sad about that one, never really came of the ground)
There is just plain the history of the guild, the how and why... Think that's an important one for a guild to go with, and the history can be expended by acts of the guild and such ;) So not EVERY guild thinks up a awesome cool sounding story about their guild :P
Cause hey, what guild would you prefer to join? one who 'says' they did cool things and such, or one which is well known in the community because of their deeds, actions ect.
(In the medieval, most peiople who wanted to join a guild (example smithy guild) and wanted to become a good smithy, I think they would choose because of the quality of work they saw, rather then what they say about it ;) )
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Socius, where in that quote I'm talking about some big battles and stuff? Nowhere. Most of all i'm talking about all this what we think is in setting (because it really could), but it never will. (there you should really read the rest of my post ;))
A gem cuters guild pop up, because some NPC mentions about gem cutters guild, and the players claim to be from the guild the NPC mentions. The orginal guild is nowhere around, so the players assume that maybe they are from second level (not deloped for players yet). You all make these assumptions, but they are all wrong, you all made it up and noone except those you convince will believe it and most of all, a NPC will never agree with you.
Maybe someone will say it is same example as with the great battle, but i can't write an example on every occassion, you need to use your brain to think about them.
You give two guilds of yours as examples, second has no real history yet, so it is discarted and first has no history too. What is known about it, is that there is some guy who lately though to form a group of people who would share his ideals. Sounds right i must confess. Sounds right, a player makes a character and from this point this character is building whole his guild completly from scratch. There is one problem with it. You want all the guilds around to be no more than 4 years old max? (4 years of PS history) No traditions, no generations, in fact nothing at all? You sure it is normal too, that at one point of Yliakum history suddently such a guilds started to pop up from nowhere?
Cause hey, what guild would you prefer to join? one who 'says' they did cool things and such, or one which is well known in the community because of their deeds, actions ect.
I want both at the same time, I don't understand why you want me to choose.
Is what your saying by that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that any guild who "creates" a history or background story that they do not rp out beforehand is invalid because the only background story is the one in the settings?
You don't need to tell me it, it is not my opinion, it is what i see around there and it is not me at all who you have to convince. I'm rather angry it is like that.
As players we can never say whether or not NCP's will acknoledge our presence in the world for the fact that we can not control them. However, it can be assumed that NCP's (if you are treating them as actual people living in the "world") do notice us as well as our many guilds for the fact that we talk around them, talk to them (while questing), and do busniess with them (through buy/selling and training). Not saying you can say "This NCP is my friend" but they know we are here. Does this mean that "The Vespers of Laanx" will get noticed by NCP members of the church? Of course they will but their power over the church truely only can be limited to a more "volunteer" service less the NCP's allowed more (And I could be wrong). Also its very possible for many of the places people rp to have been to are real. There are places and things in the world even Laanx and Talad don't understand or haven't been too. The stone labyrinths are an example of a place and the portals from which different races came from as a thing. Am I saying one can have a huge city or kingdom as a place in their story? No, that would exceede the eventual limits of the land of Ylikuam but it can be assumed that there were smaller villages within the wild lands. For example I could, if granted enough people, start a village on the Oja Road ingame. Would it be recognized by the goverment of Yliakum? I doubt it because its small but truely its not possible for me to predict the actions of Yliakums goverment.
You are making too many assumptions and think they are right. Lol, I agree it would be possible, but still, every single part of it is expanding the setting. You as player has no right to do it. Only devs can expand and build the setting.
And again, it is not up to me to decide, i'm only informing about what maybe i found about and waiting for the right people to prove it otherwise with words and then actions
I disagree :o. And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds. Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild.
Your advise noted and ignored. I would rather live informed than in a lie. And its exactly what you are advising. I must be saying truth though, if you are concerned.
Well, good luck and again, don't tell it all like it was evil me who got the idea.
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Player generated content is not impossible, it is unlikely for a very long time.
If players or longstanding guilds have potential assets they are working on adrress it directly to talad or ask Karyuu to put in the Q & A series to get an answer.
I am not really big on egocentric or guildocentric assets perhaps if such were generated with criteria provided by the dev team at some point in the distant future it could be realized. neko i will start a thread . . . http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28479.msg327644#new (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28479.msg327644#new)
We are very far from that day.
I have only one trouble with this new religion. The fact Tiren focuses on the Xacha. Settings is pretty clear on how the Xacha survived and why they worship who they worship. Conceptually however this idea is not horrible and does not offend me.
I mean if some crazy fenki ran around calling herself octarch that would just be ugly:
"Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"
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I mean if some crazy fenki ran around calling herself octarch that would just be ugly:
"Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"
Depending on how creatively it's done, it might end up quite funny:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_the_United_States) :whistling:
Now I'll address to Nikodemus points.
Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?
Hell no!!
NPCs won't say a word about you. Places which are important in your story don't exist at all, or you claim so, that you own something what was never what you describe.
The current policy of things to go in PS is exactly like this and you really can't be sure this will ever change. We are mean't to have guildhouses in future, but this is valing only to guilds like fighters, mages, crafters and such (guilds exactly as they were in medieval times). 90% of current guilds are different, you all know the topic well.
Does this mean my character pop out from existence having no past life too?
I don't think so, Settings deal with the larger things, or "guilds" wouldn't even be allowed to exist. None of my formed guilds have histories of "glorious battles", they came from the ideals of a character with several life experiences and from the banding of people with equal ideas together, before that, it simply did not exist.
Other problem. The word "guild" is incredibly OOC. In fact I refuse to use it IC to refer to anything besides commercial guilds, and Planeshift is not a 100% accurate reproduction of RW medieval age, or we wouldn't have magic, several races, most people being literate(according to some old posts) and structures like the Winch. The problem is the overusage of the expression "guild" to refer to something that IC shouldn't be called as a guild.
About NPCs, well they are pretty much closed systems right now(Say keywords, do quest, get reward, ask questions), they won't change their behavior and what they talk about based on PCs actions, so the fact they don't say a word about any guild does not mean that those don't exist really and are just our inventions, but that they aren't smart enough to do it ;)
Now if, as you claim, the official policy is to eventually dismiss all guilds as "outside the Settings", why are we allowed to do then so? Just to be frustated and leave Planeshift in masses? It simply doesn't make sense. It's just a question of not having yet the features that will allow "guilds" to really "put their mark" on the world beyond the perceptions of PCs, in my opinion.
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The history of PS is that which is remembered by those that lived it. Sometimes it is written down, ie. the settings and npc comments. Sometimes it is oral traditions passed down from one to another often in song.
While playing PS, I have witnessed the history of PS. Who's to say what I've seen and experienced hasn't happened? I have the logs afterall. Sure the settings team can say "hey, that didn't happen" or "that's against the settings", but my character lived it, so it did happen.
That's the risk taken from letting people play a :beta: game.
The ordinary life people live rarely makes it into the history books, that doesn't mean their history didn't happen or that it wasn't important; just that the recorders of history didn't see fit to record it - for whatever reason.
Araye
P.S. I am proud to have served the Octarch.
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*shakes her head*
Nikodemus in my eyes you are looking at it all wrong. NPCs don't acknowledge us? True, but why don't they acknowledge us? is it becuase w e didn't actually do anything? I would back to differ. The Dark Empire has been around 5 RL years. Depending how you RP this can be up to 30 years ingame. Now you are saying that becuase the NPCs don't have GAMEMECHANICS to actually learn about us and respond to us nothing of those years of roleplaying happened?
The NPCs are only representations of people, but if you are using them in RP you have to act as if they are really people. At the moment you could start a fight or call the bartender all kind of things and still the bartender wouldn't flinch at all. Would it therefor be realistic to RP the bartender just standing there unflinching? Would it be realistic to murder someone infront of the guards and then do the happy-happy dance in front of them and then simply walk home? I mean the guards don't do anything so ofcourse it musn't be against the law then.
Common sence says that limitations becuase NPCs are infact NPCs is never a valid argument to actually roleplay like half the population consists of people who don't have a functioning brain.
Do I want the game to change and the setting to be added upon so we as players have more influence on events? Ofcourse. I think this is the major things missing at the moment in PS. The devs atm don't even change some little things manually exept for OOC naming mostly the GMs can see atm I believe. Great RPs aren't being rewarded by it having an effect like it might in the real world.
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I dont see an issue with the new guilds apparent OOCness, its not OOC to hae a belief. The same way that you can play a Kran that doesnt believe in Talad. We are playing beings capable of original thought. They can think for themselves and they can be equally wrong as real people.
As for the original post in this thread, I would be shocked if you had actually bothered to read peoples guild threads before making this remark:
look at your guilds, at your stories for a second.
Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?
Hell no!!
The only guild post that I know well enough to make any definite statement about is Elemental Light's, and we made no bold claims about our history. Infact we actually toned down our true history to avoid mentioning the things that had actually happened. No point rakeing up bad memories.
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Please people read carefully what i write! Don't use arguments which are no longer valid. For example, I already agreed, that once your character is created, his actions are real. Of course we are still restricted there a lot, since you can't have e.g. a house! A place which orginally served different purpose can't suddently change it. You can't make up stories about places, which already have their story (even lack of something special in a given time can't be erased! You can't claim something happened there, if it was otherwise).
And so there is a problem with everything before character was actually made. It is so problematic, that we make our stories as much placeless and theoretical, that we almost can feel fine with it, especially Idoru did it ;)
Does this mean my character pop out from existence having no past life too?
Yes, that is logical conclussion. If we aren't allowed to create places ( if we could, there would be no problem to make a campfire in CS and let devs to put it in game), why is crafting a sword in setting?
It makes no sense we can do one and not another, but it leads to a conclussion that all what is possible through game features is in setting. Everything else is not.
I don't think so, Settings deal with the larger things, or "guilds" wouldn't even be allowed to exist. None of my formed guilds have histories of "glorious battles", they came from the ideals of a character with several life experiences and from the banding of people with equal ideas together, before that, it simply did not exist.
What "glorious battles"? what the heck are you talkig about? Read previous posts again.
About NPCs, well they are pretty much closed systems right now(Say keywords, do quest, get reward, ask questions), they won't change their behavior and what they talk about based on PCs actions, so the fact they don't say a word about any guild does not mean that those don't exist really and are just our inventions, but that they aren't smart enough to do it ;)
Given the fact, there is problem with making up places, or stories to already existing places, it is almost sure that what we talk about there, is not a problem with undeveloped game, but because you as character are permitted most of the stuff, which you normally would do.
Now if, as you claim, the official policy is to eventually dismiss all guilds as "outside the Settings", why are we allowed to do then so? Just to be frustated and leave Planeshift in masses? It simply doesn't make sense. It's just a question of not having yet the features that will allow "guilds" to really "put their mark" on the world beyond the perceptions of PCs, in my opinion.
Or it is because even though devs don't want to allow us everything, they still want us to have fun. Restricted, but still fun. Unfortunatelly it isn't working right ;) People get ennoyed by such approach and realise how much what they would like to do is impossible simply because of this damn OOC rule.
I realised it and i try to realise it to you, since noone will really take serious indyviduals like me. If the approach won't change, it will most likely lead to me leaving PS as a place restricting my will to RP.
Araye: Ok, stories passed by oral traditions. Why not books, monuments, something material? Because this way you are going outside the setting. Why the heck we need to be affraid of doing that stuff? Because we aren't really supposed to change the setting. I want to do what i want, RP.
Later you are talking about what your character actually did. Tell, if you assasinated the Octarch, would that be accepted? That is great you had a chance for these actions, but you had to play your role, keeping it from being too loose.
Idoru, hehe, of course one thing we are allowed is to have a belief, but you are feeling ok with it? Don't you never want to make an actual story? What is stopping you? hehe ;)
The only guild post that I know well enough to make any definite statement about is Elemental Light's, and we made no bold claims about our history. Infact we actually toned down our true history to avoid mentioning the things that had actually happened. No point rakeing up bad memories.
Only your guild needs that "things that had actually happened", Why couldn't you keep it? Was it outsoide the setting? ;P Why were you forced to make your guild placeless and theoretical assumptions so much? Don't you feel that your RP is restricted without a reason? Couldn't you talk about your story with devs to make it fit in setting? Edit it enough, that places will actually pop up, (just like the winch poped up for us lately), someting what will also make sense with the rest of the setting?
Why didn't you? eh.
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Sorry to get off topic but not all guilds are made at first for ic reasons some guilds are made because of OOC issues that bring people together first then they create the guild followed by the IC reasons leaving out the OOC reason they made the guild to start with. I personally dont have a problem with this, and for this reason i dont ask guilds why did your guild get formed unless they wish to explain it. [example: guild gets disbanned and one member wishes to keep that guild strong so rebuilds it then has to create a new history for it that fits the settings]
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yeah, it is very off topic ;P
All people shoulc have a chance to learn and ultimately make a guild with all we expect from it. But at this point they will have a problem, if they try to make their guild roots a bit furher, than the last few months they were existing ;P Because as i said before, each guild try to have some places and facts, which may be made only by the devs. Most of it may be completly unimportant, so noone will care, but the rest will be problematic for them to RP it.
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actually the reason for Elemental Light's existence is a mixture of your's and Caarrie's last posts. It was created due to OOC problems that caused the collapse of a former guild that I loved. Several of the members of the previous guild loved it also and wanted to recreate a guild with similar aims and principals under a new leadership. I was subsequently elected leader.
If EL were to come up with a story that didnt include the extreme OOC-ness of the previous guilds collapse it would be just inventing something out of nowhere, hence there is no mention of the reasons the previous guild collapsed. There was no plausible IC explanation for the collapse of the previous guild that wouldnt fall into the category of 'creating history'. The lesser of two evils in my opinion.
We are the guild we are due to both IC and OOC connections, and personally I think it has formed a guild that lives in the best of both worlds without being too heavily OOC.
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I have only one trouble with this new religion. The fact Tiren focuses on the Xacha. Settings is pretty clear on how the Xacha survived and why they worship who they worship. Conceptually however this idea is not horrible and does not offend me.
It does not focus on the Xacha. Xacha were just used as the original followers because according to the settings they lived within the stone labyrinths so they were ideal to use as initial followers.
I disagree :o. And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds. Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild.
Your advise noted and ignored. I would rather live informed than in a lie. And its exactly what you are advising. I must be saying truth though, if you are concerned.
Well, good luck and again, don't tell it all like it was evil me who got the idea.
I think what he's trying to say is that while yes you should tell the truth the truth does not have to be put in a way that discorages members from playing. If you didn't like the idea and expressed why it would be different but to just tell someone "your guild will fail" is not a good way to help better guilds become formed. You yourself are arguing for better guilds to be made but instead are telling people that their ideas won't work? Sounds kinda contradictory to me ;)
@Nikodemus
What I'm getting at is that you feel places that already exist can not have some kind of "previous history" made by characters (especially guilds who try and make histories in this historic sites). However do you feel that instead we should all just make up NEW places? Should I just make a new land outside of Hydlaa and Oja, give it a name, say some things happened there, and make it my guild story because nothing else ever happened there? If everyone was to do that though then when the game was completed we'd all have to trash our guild stories because everything within Yliakum would finally be made. I'm not saying you do feel this way but if you don't then where do you think the history of any guild should and CAN be made? Think of it this way, everything happens somewhere. I actually think that by people making different things happen in these places that DO exist and have history the game is more realistic. For example, according to the settings something lived in the stone labyrinths before Laanx and Talad discovered them. Would they suddenly have never had any history till after one of the gods would have found them? Things are always happening. I think of the settings as a christian would think of a bible. They believe that everything written there happened, but were they there to see it? No. Could other things have happened during the times those things happened as well? Of course. If only the settings happened, then suddenly we the players "appeared" in the game it would be unrealistic. Things besides what are there HAD to have happened. People, creatures, everything had to live, have their own history. The settings is just what every player KNOWS happened, just like our bible. Guild histories are those "untold" stories that happened in history but were never noticed. Why they suddenly pop up? Because they are suddenly advertised and spoken about by others who know or LIVED through those times.
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I would not put much stock in what NPCs say, or do not say about people or guilds. I could ask them about Proglin, who has existed, and is largely known to the player characters. They would stare at you blankly, and ask you to speak in simpler terms. I guess that would mean Proglin never really existed? The act of simply talking to an NPC is OOC, as no one can hear what you say, and no one hears the response. NPCs right now are just vehicals for single player quests and a bit of info on the settings. Only take them as such.
Until there is a system in place where NPCs can acknowledge guilds and players, best to leave them out of the "reasons your guild does not exist' arguments.
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I disagree :o. And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds. Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild.
Your advise noted and ignored. I would rather live informed than in a lie. And its exactly what you are advising. I must be saying truth though, if you are concerned.
Well, good luck and again, don't tell it all like it was evil me who got the idea.
I think what he's trying to say is that while yes you should tell the truth the truth does not have to be put in a way that discorages members from playing. If you didn't like the idea and expressed why it would be different but to just tell someone "your guild will fail" is not a good way to help better guilds become formed. You yourself are arguing for better guilds to be made but instead are telling people that their ideas won't work? Sounds kinda contradictory to me ;)
What's you point? i wished him good luck. Your theory of "contradictory" is lacking. Besides what could have been said, have been already by others.
Put equation mark beetwen "places that already exist can not have some kind of "previous history" made by" Players and "make up NEW places" not exclusion mark. With current PS policy you can trash your guild story anyway. You can't get it in game, all you can do is telling it around. It will exist only within players, it won't make it deep into the game.
Example: Two friends fighted in the temple as they were mad on each another and one made a hole in the wall with a hammer, just below a torch. There will never be such a hole. You story won't make it in game. Or your rather hear: It is near impossible. That is the PS policy and i'm trying to tell all of you this, but you are just denying it (Tis imposible! We're doomed!...), giving new and new reasons to prove, what i say, wrong.
Everything happens somewhere, but it is not to us to make it, but only the devs, no matter what you are thinking, you are only playes, your story is near impossible to make it in game, any story.
It is unrealistic player made characters pop up from nowhere, but it is a consequence of the PS policy. Ultimately everything besides what is player made is in setting, everything else is only partially in setting and bigger or smaller way.
The public setting is maybe 1% of what the devs are hiding and in the final game can can find out the rest, by playing it only.
No, the setting is not what every player knows happened. Not everyone know about Gorbiak and not everyone know about "enter a random guild there". Setting is what was made by players and what possibly could be approved by them. You guild story is near impossible to be approved and places(a hole hammered just below a torch)/histories won't make it in game, so all you can do is spread the info about these amoung players only.
Guild histories are those "untold" stories that happened in history but will always ramain unnoticed but the players
UtM,
When the system will be in place, I predict you that with current PS policy the NPCs still won't realise about the guilds and players ;)
I see guys that everything must be fine! I'm the only one who actually say something else than you. If you think all i'm saying are just lies just post a single "yes" and I shut up.
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I cant just post 'Yes' because I dont think anyone here is calling you a liar. I believe people just think you are misguided and incorrect in your comments.
Example: Two friends fighted in the temple as they were mad on each another and one made a hole in the wall with a hammer, just below a torch. There will never be such a hole.
No reason not to RP something that is unavailable due to game mechanics.
You story won't make it in game.
How can you make such a strong claim?
Everything happens somewhere, but it is not to us to make it, but only the devs, no matter what you are thinking, you are only playes, your story is near impossible to make it in game, any story.
Players make the game what it is. The Devs assist that by creating a good setting for this to happen. This game wouldnt be PS if people acted as they do in WoW.
When the system will be in place, I predict you that with current PS policy the NPCs still won't realise about the guilds and players
I disagree, I can imagine a future where NPCs would refer to particular guilds and characters (not players) that had become famous or infamous. The Devs aim for realism and it wouldnt be realistic without this.
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You story won't make it in game.
How can you make such a strong claim?
That's not the claim.
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No, the setting is not what every player knows happened. Not everyone know about Gorbiak and not everyone know about "enter a random guild there". Setting is what was made by players and what possibly could be approved by them. You guild story is near impossible to be approved and places(a hole hammered just below a torch)/histories won't make it in game, so all you can do is spread the info about these amoung players only.
Guild histories are those "untold" stories that happened in history but will always ramain unnoticed but the players
Thats not what I meant when I said every player knows the settings. I meant that game wise these are the things we know did happen. As in even if your character doesn't know it ICly we the people behind the players (and only if you read the settings I guess :sweatdrop: ) know what happened in the history OOCly. Guild stories are technically history just like the settings. No one can prove it did or did not happen, you just believe it or not. Same with the settings story. ICly we can not necessarily prove all these things happened, you just might believe it if you know about it. Also I disagree that guilds will only be noticed by players. If you think about it even gms during an event can recognize guilds. Its possible for a gm to play a character important to the settings and therefore if that character got involved with a random guild that previously existed it would be just like that guilds history being recognized by the settings (bad way to word the example but I got kinda lost for words). If Laanx were to appear (by something done by the gms) and he spoke to characters about something (like a quest/event) and happened to learn about the guilds can you really say their stories can only be believed by players? NCPs can not recognize guilds and players only because of a game mechanic's issure. However if a character so important to the games settings were to recognize a guild do you really think that the NCPs would just continue to stand and ignore it? I think a good rper is someone that treats the NCP's as if they too were players in the game. More important players possibly but still just players. They too can see, hear, and speak to us even if the games mechanics does not always support this. For example during the Eldoreth GM event when Eldoreth happened to walk past various citizens in the city(NCP or player) they might bow or wave. They acknoledged him because he was the Octarchs guard. The only reason they can't acknowledge us is because of game mechanic limiting. Do you really think that if your rping and you see someone who's supposed to exist in the game that he/she will not see you, will not wave, or even care? If you see the same trainer everyday do you think you wouldn't rply be recognized and at least get a hello? To think that way is to make this game less of an MMORPG and more like one of those games when you just level up and kill.
I understand what your saying Nikodemus. My only point is just that what do you expect us to do? Would this game really be fun playing if we lost the ability to make creative rp? Sure sometimes people do go farther than needed, like what you said about making a hole in the Laanx temple, but I don't think everyone goes that far. I personally can say I mainly play for the fact that we rp and that we rp in a world with rules but one that is open allowing a variety of rps.
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Nikodemus ... I really hope you don't meant it the way how it reads.
Do you want to doom the Knowledge Seekers out of PlaneShift because they play to have a university (and may it just be an IC substitute for their OOC forum)?
Do you want to doom the Royal House of Purrty out of PlaneShift because they use a building as mansion, imagine objects which don't have a model, imagine another stalagtite to be the location of Printh (for avoiding conflicts with the settings)?
In short: You don't accept any roleplay that is not limited to the settings and implemented features?
...
Well, this was my first assumption after reading your initial text.
Of course, there are roleplays which interfer quite heavily with the settings in some way. But do you really believe that "guilds in the grey area" are the reason for disappearing roleplaying-oriented guilds? ... If this assumption was true, then I will gladly recommend Lolitra to close the Royal House of Purrty, to save a dozen of settings-compliant roleplaying guilds which are just about to die because of the popularity of us. ;)
With a little exaggeration -- I believe just the opposite: Guilds come and go, that's quite natural. But as natural as death is, as natural is birth... My concern is just that too many pointless, uncreative, uninspired guilds are made, creative guilds get limited in their wish to express themselves, and guilds with really interesting background become insignificant due to the amount of all the same similar unimportant guilds.
"Join my new guild!" - "What is your goal?" - "Helping newbs." - "Oh no, not again..."
Especially about the Knowledge Seekers: Did you realise that they could have died a few months ago? Would you miss them today if they did? ... They remade, and get healthier each day. Why? - Because of a little bit of uniqueness. Allow them to dream of a university. May it exist somewhere as 3D model or not. Hey, the first level is by far not yet complete. How can you know what is located in those places we can not yet visit?
Imagination is the power. I agree to try to avoid the nonsense and the obvious settings violations - but forcing the roleplay and the guild histories into a corset of rules will kill PlaneShift.
__
P.S.: I hope you will try to attend the Royal Ball. For having fun, for some roleplaying. For a stronger community.
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Do not underestimate the power of the players in creating the world of Planeshift. The settings might dictate what has been and how the future should be more or less ... but we are Yliakum. We represent and create the in-game world in it's current state, we can create many great things without the help of the Devs and without needing game mechanics.
Sadly there is an egocentrical trend in PS that we players fight amongst eachother and don't allow eachother anything that might be seen as a (selfobtained) priviledge.
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hehe, still, none of you really realised what this topic is about or you just focused on things, which really doesn't matter
Do you really think i wan't to kill all guilds in PS, kill mine?^^
To answer Duraza concerns:
I have no idea what do you mean with the OOC in the setting, but there should be none and if there is some in your guild, fight it.
What do I expect you to do? Move with your RP to higher degree, not only beetwen players, but deeper into symbiotic part of the setting made by devs. For this you have to convice them. Otherwise there won't be really e.g. that University of Knowledge Seekers.
The power of players you all talk about is indeed great, but is it really that great to make everything? Which is what the Devs can do. Is it game of us all? Or is it game of the Devs and then us players?
Sure sometimes people do go farther than needed, like what you said about making a hole in the Laanx temple, but I don't think everyone goes that far.
You are wrong, it is not farther than needed, it is needed. Unless you fear progress.
Ligh, do you think i want to let into setting all the guilds "lets help newbies"? I want the setting to be open for all our serious guilds. For now you are treated on the same level as these "lets help newbies" guilds.
Of course, there are roleplays which interfer quite heavily with the settings in some way.
I want them to stop interfering, but being symbiotic.
The settings might dictate what has been and how the future should be more or less ... but we are Yliakum.
We are the setting, or at least should be. But again, not the "lets help newbies" people and similiar.
Really people, stop looking what you don't like in my saying, but what is wrong with current setting approach ad what i say will start making more sense to you.
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You are wrong, it is not farther than needed, it is needed. Unless you fear progress.
When I said people go farther than needed I meant some people do rp out of the settings.
The power of players you all talk about is indeed great, but is it really that great to make everything? Which is what the Devs can do. Is it game of us all? Or is it game of the Devs and then us players?
I think that in a game the player come's first. A Dev is more like a moderator. When things go to far or get out of hand its the Dev's job to step in. When special things are to happen its for the Devs to be in control. But just because the Dev's do have so much power does not mean you should limit the power of the player. In my view while devs are important the game and all that happens within it should mainly be run by the player. The Dev just sets the limits. Its up to the players to explore those limits unrestrictedly.
Of course, there are roleplays which interfer quite heavily with the settings in some way.
I want them to stop interfering, but being symbiotic.
If all you are trying to say is that you want people to stop making rp out of the settings I agree with you. However I think its what can be done inside and outside of the settings is what we disagree with in that case.
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Ok...I thought this was an RP game...
To me that means Role playing, and doesn't that mean to play a role you are handed. So ok yes, it may be true that some of the places, times and people that are told in the history backdgrounds of guilds aren't true...but I thought that was the point of role playing. I am pretty sure it is encouraged as well. I know when I signed up and created my 'character' there was a part that said that they encouraged everyone to give their character a history...a background...a life story...So why not bring that to a guild? It is after all a part of all of our characters current and past lives is it not? So I don't get what the big deal is...Really, if ppl are having fun with it, making their own little dramas between other guilds...it is all fun and games...People this isn't a really life drama story! So why not make it as interesting and different as we can?
Why can't we all just get a long? hahaha.... :innocent:
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The Rangers of Yliakum, as I founded it, was created by Farren Kutter due to a story he heard about the rangers (a former Rangers guild or two) and how they had all gone or dispersed. This was after Farren was attacked and robbed by a group of rogues. He took it to heart and after a time of training, set off to become a ranger. He began after a time to proclaim himself a ranger. Naturally, all of this was just made up because I decided I wanted a guild and liked the idea of rangers. The history was created a long time after the guild itself. Infact, no one has seen the whole true history, I haven't ever typed it... it is all on a little notepad, wrote it during school. But I bet no one who didn't know me as the Jokester of the Guild Knights would ever have denied any of it :) Because no one can know everything, as has been said previously, and therefore no one can know that something didn't happen unless facts that they IC know show otherwise. IC people could be lying about their past for all we know :)
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hmm i agree with vampire orchard . err and i am a member of a 'OOC-in-guild-channel' and 'help noob guilds' :-X . Hmm i read a lot of broad generalizations in some posts here. :( There are some who RP in all channels. There are some who RP only in mains and auction channel. That is the degree of freedom i know that we have. As i haven't heard contradictory info from the settings team on that yet. ??? ..err and i asked only the settings team..not others. :D i know how certain lines are just taken and responded upon. :D ...ok... Why do i refer to the settings team? cos they moderate our 'over imaginative' creativity. Why do they moderate and create boundaries? Cos with every player having thier own likes and dislikes, they have to have boundaries in the story line to satisfy the creative add ons of different tastes and likings of different players. Which means its a compromise and it makes it a bit real and thus 'immersive' which is what the game i believe is striving for.
I read somewhere in this thread about us being players and about devs as moderators. I thought we all served the game's development for now :whistling: ...the devs create the environment; the settings team sort of outline the boundaries in which we can create more inter personal stories; and we as players have the responsibility to test the world for the devs, and do our bit to fill the space (outlined by the settings team who create with devs the main storyline and stuff) within the world with realistic day-to-day stories. :woot:
Some of us like to just help new players. RP is an individual choice (at least in my guild). I think RP and the way we help is an individual choice. some only RP, others RP and help(RP or OOC) and others only help (OOC). I say this, because, some lines in the above posts seem a bit too dismissive of how others play the game, :( even though they are keeping within the broad rules of the game.
I am one of those noobs who had no idea what 'RP' meant and what a MMORPG was :-[ .... and due to some players who OOC -helped me :-* , and taught me ingame...i can now RP :detective: \\o// like so many others. In my case, OOC -help ingame has helped and i do many things ingame :sorcerer: ..recently i reported a bug too! :thumbup: And i have no tech knowledge either.
I would imagine a creative person would have enough ingenuity to accept and respect another's creativeness and co share the freedoms available. :'(
PS: This post was written after reading the posts until Vampire Orchid. During the creation of this post Farren kutter posted a new msg in the thread. O--)
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Shame on anyone that has imagination? I would think that people with lush imaginations and plush backgrounds [within reason] would be \\o// ed. I for one love looking into many guilds and players background stories to see who is the most creative. As for if it will ever come to pass in game? Who's to say. Though as for myself i love this game enough and the enviornment it provides me with [i.e. escape] enough to hand around and see it through. I'm sure that if this world does not implode in the future that many many things will come to pass.
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The points raised are right, if you think about it, I finally comprehended about it.
Roleplaying isn't controlled by devs, but by the community, while game engines are, most of "power" from guilds around is completely based on the concept of roleplaying to overcome the limitations of a game on an alpha stage of development(except for the occasional and quickly dismissed guild of "leet duellers"). Once systems that can actually make guilds powerful and recognized among NPCs, and that makes rich characters have a true impact and power on the world(being able to influence in politics, NPC-based organizations, etc.), all the accumulated prestige of all guilds among the community will be suddenly lost, at least gameplay-wise. But it would not be very believable to claim "guild x" is allmighty from pure roleplay while there are game systems that allow players to really influence other organizations besides player-ones and the world economy. Add to that, the planned "apocalyptical" full wipe happening Soon(TM) will level every single guild to zero on any actual wealth and power they might have acquired, except for the "loyal" members disposition to begin from scratch. So, if we take on this approach, it is very accurate to claim, that beyond all the "pillow talk" from roleplaying, current guilds, from the game perspective, are inherently powerless. Playing an alpha stage game means consenting to have an alpha stage Settings and an incomplete environment for any roleplay experience beyond chit-chat.
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Yup :) One of the main reasons I never tried to gain power as a guild with the Rangers was that there is no true point (yet). The others were all RP reasons, such as it needing to be small since its main purpose was to help people (newbies and others) as well as protect others (RP).
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Well there could be point in making a powerful guild even while playing now. It just depends on how you go around doing it. If you mass recruit then yes, once the wipe happens there is no point but if you find loyal members then when the wipe does happen your members will most likely come back and it will only make your guild easier to rebuild. But of course I'm speaking off topic sorry :-X
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Well there could be point in making a powerful guild even while playing now. It just depends on how you go around doing it. If you mass recruit then yes, once the wipe happens there is no point but if you find loyal members then when the wipe does happen your members will most likely come back and it will only make your guild easier to rebuild. But of course I'm speaking off topic sorry :-X
Is this a general trend or am I the only one who saw many of our guild members stopping playing Planeshift?
There is a point though in my case... I'm not the only one responsable for the development of ideas on the guild I started... it's... a bit like... Linux, some kind of "open-source" guild development... in fact, the basic idea for the, currently disabled for... lack of active members, "Legion of the Black Sun" structure was not mine for example. Anyway, besides acquiring loyal manpower(and womanpower), and besides IC "marketing" and "propaganda" to make it actually well-known, at least among the community, there is not much to do... except if you wish to spend hours and hours powerlevelling so you can match with the overhyped "standards" of what would be a "good fighter"(Not sure if I'm exaggerating a bit on this "standard": maxxed weapon, armor skills and stats) to have a chance on armed conflict... but as there is a third force(the "Police"), it's not so simple as people could imagine...
After all... we will wake up from daydreaming(both IC and OOC) as the true ways of acquiring and using fame, power, influence and wealth will appear, so no matter how hard we believed, the "guildhouse" was always just a myth, as was our castles, cities and kindgoms, we will build them then, and the true history and action will begin...