My concern: Guilds in PS

[Nikodemus]

I disagree  .  And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds.  Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild. 

Your advise noted and ignored. I would rather live informed than in a lie. And its exactly what you are advising. I must be saying truth though, if you are concerned.

Well, good luck and again, don't tell it all like it was evil me who got the idea.

I think what he's trying to say is that while yes you should tell the truth the truth does not have to be put in a way that discorages members from playing.  If you didn't like the idea and expressed why it would be different but to just tell someone "your guild will fail" is not a good way to help better guilds become formed.  You yourself are arguing for better guilds to be made but instead are telling people that their ideas won't work? Sounds kinda contradictory to me 

What's you point? i wished him good luck. Your theory of "contradictory" is lacking. Besides what could have been said, have been already by others.

Put equation mark beetwen "places that already exist can not have some kind of "previous history" made by" Players and "make up NEW places" not exclusion mark. With current PS policy you can trash your guild story anyway. You can't get it in game, all you can do is telling it around. It will exist only within players, it won't make it deep into the game.
Example: Two friends fighted in the temple as they were mad on each another and one made a hole in the wall with a hammer, just below a torch. There will never be such a hole. You story won't make it in game. Or your rather hear: It is near impossible. That is the PS policy and i'm trying to tell all of you this, but you are just denying it (Tis imposible! We're doomed!...), giving new and new reasons to prove, what i say, wrong.
Everything happens somewhere, but it is not to us to make it, but only the devs, no matter what you are thinking, you are only playes, your story is near impossible to make it in game, any story.
It is unrealistic player made characters pop up from nowhere, but it is a consequence of the PS policy. Ultimately everything besides what is player made is in setting, everything else is only partially in setting and bigger or smaller way.
The public setting is maybe 1% of what the devs are hiding and in the final game can can find out the rest, by playing it only.
No, the setting is not what every player knows happened. Not everyone know about Gorbiak and not everyone know about "enter a random guild there". Setting is what was made by players and what possibly could be approved by them. You guild story is near impossible to be approved and places(a hole hammered just below a torch)/histories won't make it in game, so all you can do is spread the info about these amoung players only.

Guild histories are those "untold" stories that happened in history but will always ramain unnoticed but the players


UtM,
When the system will be in place, I predict you that with current PS policy the NPCs still won't realise about the guilds and players



I see guys that everything must be fine! I'm the only one who actually say something else than you. If you think all i'm saying are just lies just post a single "yes" and I shut up.

[Idoru]

I cant just post 'Yes' because I dont think anyone here is calling you a liar. I believe people just think you are misguided and incorrect in your comments.

Example: Two friends fighted in the temple as they were mad on each another and one made a hole in the wall with a hammer, just below a torch. There will never be such a hole.

No reason not to RP something that is unavailable due to game mechanics.

You story won't make it in game.

How can you make such a strong claim?

Everything happens somewhere, but it is not to us to make it, but only the devs, no matter what you are thinking, you are only playes, your story is near impossible to make it in game, any story.

Players make the game what it is. The Devs assist that by creating a good setting for this to happen. This game wouldnt be PS if people acted as they do in WoW.

When the system will be in place, I predict you that with current PS policy the NPCs still won't realise about the guilds and players

I disagree, I can imagine a future where NPCs would refer to particular guilds and characters (not players) that had become famous or infamous. The Devs aim for realism and it wouldnt be realistic without this.

[Nikodemus]

You story won't make it in game.

How can you make such a strong claim?

That's not the claim.

[Duraza]

No, the setting is not what every player knows happened. Not everyone know about Gorbiak and not everyone know about "enter a random guild there". Setting is what was made by players and what possibly could be approved by them. You guild story is near impossible to be approved and places(a hole hammered just below a torch)/histories won't make it in game, so all you can do is spread the info about these amoung players only.

Guild histories are those "untold" stories that happened in history but will always ramain unnoticed but the players

Thats not what I meant when I said every player knows the settings.  I meant that game wise these are the things we know did happen.  As in even if your character doesn't know it ICly we the people behind the players (and only if you read the settings I guess  ) know what happened in the history OOCly.  Guild stories are technically history just like the settings.  No one can prove it did or did not happen, you just believe it or not.  Same with the settings story.  ICly we can not necessarily prove all these things happened, you just might believe it if you know about it.  Also I disagree that guilds will only be noticed by players.  If you think about it even gms during an event can recognize guilds.  Its possible for a gm to play a character important to the settings and therefore if that character got involved with a random guild that previously existed it would be just like that guilds history being recognized by the settings (bad way to word the example but I got kinda lost for words).  If Laanx were to appear (by something done by the gms) and he spoke to characters about something (like a quest/event) and happened to learn about the guilds can you really say their stories can only be believed by players? NCPs can not recognize guilds and players only because of a game mechanic's issure.  However if a character so important to the games settings were to recognize a guild do you really think that the NCPs would just continue to stand and ignore it?  I think a good rper is someone that treats the NCP's as if they too were players in the game.  More important players possibly but still just players.  They too can see, hear, and speak to us even if the games mechanics does not always support this.  For example during the Eldoreth GM event when Eldoreth happened to walk past various citizens in the city(NCP or player) they might bow or wave.  They acknoledged him because he was the Octarchs guard.  The only reason they can't acknowledge us is because of game mechanic limiting.  Do you really think that if your rping and you see someone who's supposed to exist in the game that he/she will not see you, will not wave, or even care? If you see the same trainer everyday do you think you wouldn't rply be recognized and at least get a hello? To think that way is to make this game less of an MMORPG and more like one of those games when you just level up and kill.   

I understand what your saying Nikodemus.  My only point is just that what do you expect us to do?  Would this game really be fun playing if we lost the ability to make creative rp? Sure sometimes people do go farther than needed, like what you said about making a hole in the Laanx temple, but I don't think everyone goes that far.  I personally can say I mainly play for the fact that we rp and that we rp in a world with rules but one that is open allowing a variety of rps.

[LigH]

Nikodemus ... I really hope you don't meant it the way how it reads.

Do you want to doom the Knowledge Seekers out of PlaneShift because they play to have a university (and may it just be an IC substitute for their OOC forum)?

Do you want to doom the Royal House of Purrty out of PlaneShift because they use a building as mansion, imagine objects which don't have a model, imagine another stalagtite to be the location of Printh (for avoiding conflicts with the settings)?

In short: You don't accept any roleplay that is not limited to the settings and implemented features?
...

Well, this was my first assumption after reading your initial text.

Of course, there are roleplays which interfer quite heavily with the settings in some way. But do you really believe that "guilds in the grey area" are the reason for disappearing roleplaying-oriented guilds? ... If this assumption was true, then I will gladly recommend Lolitra to close the Royal House of Purrty, to save a dozen of settings-compliant roleplaying guilds which are just about to die because of the popularity of us.

With a little exaggeration -- I believe just the opposite: Guilds come and go, that's quite natural. But as natural as death is, as natural is birth... My concern is just that too many pointless, uncreative, uninspired guilds are made, creative guilds get limited in their wish to express themselves, and guilds with really interesting background become insignificant due to the amount of all the same similar unimportant guilds.

"Join my new guild!" - "What is your goal?" - "Helping newbs." - "Oh no, not again..."

Especially about the Knowledge Seekers: Did you realise that they could have died a few months ago? Would you miss them today if they did? ... They remade, and get healthier each day. Why? - Because of a little bit of uniqueness. Allow them to dream of a university. May it exist somewhere as 3D model or not. Hey, the first level is by far not yet complete. How can you know what is located in those places we can not yet visit?

Imagination is the power. I agree to try to avoid the nonsense and the obvious settings violations - but forcing the roleplay and the guild histories into a corset of rules will kill PlaneShift.
__

P.S.: I hope you will try to attend the Royal Ball. For having fun, for some roleplaying. For a stronger community.

[Zan]

Do not underestimate the power of the players in creating the world of Planeshift. The settings might dictate what has been and how the future should be more or less ... but we are Yliakum. We represent and create the in-game world in it's current state, we can create many great things without the help of the Devs and without needing game mechanics.

Sadly there is an egocentrical trend in PS that we players fight amongst eachother and don't allow eachother anything that might be seen as a (selfobtained) priviledge.

[Nikodemus]

hehe, still, none of you really realised what this topic is about or you just focused on things, which really doesn't matter
Do you really think i wan't to kill all guilds in PS, kill mine?^^

To answer Duraza concerns:
I have no idea what do you mean with the OOC in the setting, but there should be none and if there is some in your guild, fight it.
What do I expect you to do? Move with your RP to higher degree, not only beetwen players, but deeper into symbiotic part of the setting made by devs. For this you have to convice them. Otherwise there won't be really e.g. that University of Knowledge Seekers.
The power of players you all talk about is indeed great, but is it really that great to make everything? Which is what the Devs can do. Is it game of us all? Or is it game of the Devs and then us players?

Sure sometimes people do go farther than needed, like what you said about making a hole in the Laanx temple, but I don't think everyone goes that far.

You are wrong, it is not farther than needed, it is needed. Unless you fear progress.

Ligh, do you think i want to let into setting all the guilds "lets help newbies"? I want the setting to be open for all our serious guilds. For now you are treated on the same level as these "lets help newbies" guilds.

Of course, there are roleplays which interfer quite heavily with the settings in some way.

I want them to stop interfering, but being symbiotic.

The settings might dictate what has been and how the future should be more or less ... but we are Yliakum.

We are the setting, or at least should be. But again, not the "lets help newbies" people and similiar.


Really people, stop looking what you don't like in my saying, but what is wrong with current setting approach ad what i say will start making more sense to you.

[Duraza]

You are wrong, it is not farther than needed, it is needed. Unless you fear progress.

When I said people go farther than needed I meant some people do rp out of the settings. 

The power of players you all talk about is indeed great, but is it really that great to make everything? Which is what the Devs can do. Is it game of us all? Or is it game of the Devs and then us players?

I think that in a game the player come's first. A Dev is more like a moderator. When things go to far or get out of hand its the Dev's job to step in.  When special things are to happen its for the Devs to be in control.  But just because the Dev's do have so much power does not mean you should limit the power of the player.  In my view while devs are important the game and all that happens within it should mainly be run by the player.  The Dev just sets the limits. Its up to the players to explore those limits unrestrictedly.

Of course, there are roleplays which interfer quite heavily with the settings in some way.

I want them to stop interfering, but being symbiotic.

If all you are trying to say is that you want people to stop making rp out of the settings I agree with you.  However I think its what can be done inside and outside of the settings is what we disagree with in that case. 

[Vampire_Orchid]

Ok...I thought this was an RP game...

To me that means Role playing, and doesn't that mean to play a role you are handed. So ok yes, it may be true that some of the places, times and people that are told in the history backdgrounds of guilds aren't true...but I thought that was the point of role playing. I am pretty sure it is encouraged as well. I know when I signed up and created my 'character' there was a part that said that they encouraged everyone to give their character a history...a background...a life story...So why not bring that to a guild? It is after all a part of all of our characters current and past lives is it not? So I don't get what the big deal is...Really, if ppl are having fun with it, making their own little dramas between other guilds...it is all fun and games...People this isn't a really life drama story! So why not make it as interesting and different as we can?

Why can't we all just get a long? hahaha....

[Farren Kutter]

The Rangers of Yliakum, as I founded it, was created by Farren Kutter due to a story he heard about the rangers (a former Rangers guild or two) and how they had all gone or dispersed. This was after Farren was attacked and robbed by a group of rogues. He took it to heart and after a time of training, set off to become a ranger. He began after a time to proclaim himself a ranger. Naturally, all of this was just made up because I decided I wanted a guild and liked the idea of rangers. The history was created a long time after the guild itself. Infact, no one has seen the whole true history, I haven't ever typed it... it is all on a little notepad, wrote it during school. But I bet no one who didn't know me as the Jokester of the Guild Knights would ever have denied any of it Because no one can know everything, as has been said previously, and therefore no one can know that something didn't happen unless facts that they IC know show otherwise. IC people could be lying about their past for all we know

[oningo]

hmm i agree with vampire orchard . err and i am a member of a 'OOC-in-guild-channel' and 'help noob guilds'  . Hmm i read a lot of broad generalizations in some posts here.  There are some who RP in all channels. There are some who RP only in mains and auction channel. That is the degree of freedom i know that we have. As i haven't heard contradictory info from the settings team on that yet. ..err and i asked only the settings team..not others.  i know how certain lines are just taken and responded upon. ...ok... Why do i refer to the settings team? cos they moderate our 'over imaginative' creativity. Why do they moderate and create boundaries? Cos with every player having thier own likes and dislikes, they have to have boundaries in the story line to satisfy the creative add ons of different tastes and likings of different players. Which means its a compromise and it makes it a bit real and thus 'immersive' which is what the game i believe is striving for.

 I read somewhere in this thread about us being players and about devs as moderators. I thought we all served the game's development for now  ...the devs create the environment; the settings team sort of outline the boundaries in which we can create more inter personal stories; and we as players have the responsibility to test the world for the devs, and do our bit to fill the space (outlined by the settings team who create with devs the main storyline and stuff) within the world with realistic day-to-day stories. 

Some of us like to just help new players. RP is an individual choice (at least in my guild). I think RP and the way we help is an individual choice. some only RP, others RP and help(RP or OOC) and others only help (OOC). I say this, because, some lines in the above posts seem a bit too dismissive of how others play the game,  even though they are keeping within the broad rules of the game.

I am one of those noobs who had no idea what 'RP' meant and what a MMORPG was  .... and due to some players who OOC -helped me    , and taught me ingame...i can now RP    like so many others. In my case, OOC -help ingame has helped and i do many things ingame  ..recently i reported a bug too!  And i have no tech knowledge either.

I would imagine a creative person would have enough ingenuity to accept and respect another's creativeness and co share the freedoms available.   

PS: This post was written after reading the posts until Vampire Orchid. During the creation of this post Farren kutter posted a new msg in the thread. 

[Staren]

Shame on anyone that has imagination? I would think that people with lush imaginations and plush backgrounds [within reason] would be  ed. I for one love looking into many guilds and players background stories to see who is the most creative. As for if it will ever come to pass in game? Who's to say. Though as for myself i love this game enough and the enviornment it provides me with [i.e. escape] enough to hand around and see it through. I'm sure that if this world does not implode in the future that many many things will come to pass.

[Raleigh]

The points raised are right, if you think about it, I finally comprehended about it.

     Roleplaying isn't controlled by devs, but by the community, while game engines are, most of "power" from guilds around is completely based on the concept of roleplaying to overcome the limitations of a game on an alpha stage of development(except for the occasional and quickly dismissed guild of "leet duellers"). Once systems that can actually make guilds powerful and recognized among NPCs, and that makes rich characters have a true impact and power on the world(being able to influence in politics, NPC-based organizations, etc.), all the accumulated prestige of all guilds among the community will be suddenly lost, at least gameplay-wise. But it would not be very believable to claim "guild x" is allmighty from pure roleplay while there are game systems that allow players to really influence other organizations besides player-ones and the world economy. Add to that, the planned "apocalyptical" full wipe happening Soon(TM) will level every single guild to zero on any actual wealth and power they might have acquired, except for the "loyal" members disposition to begin from scratch. So, if we take on this approach, it is very accurate to claim, that beyond all the "pillow talk" from roleplaying, current guilds, from the game perspective, are inherently powerless. Playing an alpha stage game means consenting to have an alpha stage Settings and an incomplete environment for any roleplay experience beyond chit-chat.

[Farren Kutter]

Yup One of the main reasons I never tried to gain power as a guild with the Rangers was that there is no true point (yet). The others were all RP reasons, such as it needing to be small since its main purpose was to help people (newbies and others) as well as protect others (RP).

[Duraza]

Well there could be point in making a powerful guild even while playing now.  It just depends on how you go around doing it.  If you mass recruit then yes, once the wipe happens there is no point but if you find loyal members then when the wipe does happen your members will most likely come back and it will only make your guild easier to rebuild.  But of course I'm speaking off topic sorry