PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: socia on May 25, 2007, 04:58:46 am
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I'm only getting sad with latest ingame PS developement, about month ago I spreaded ooc word about getiing info about imperium and possible attack on them.. making sure that it is visible ooc I used [], I wonder why now imperium IC says that we are planing attack...
There was ooc talk about attacking Orders of Daggers oh why are we now 'icly' attacked by them that we betrade them?
and so on, it's like pushing me to do realy mass /ignore, why?
is it so hard to notice those [] and _don't_ pull them ic?
what if I say someone [I'm gay], next day people in game start attacking my fenki char because she's gay?
and than people ask me why I keep 90% of my RPs private between few persons.
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seperating IC from OOC is something most players just can't wrap their heads around... if you want something secret IC best to keep it as such OOC as well.
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Why the heck would you talk OOCly about IC activities in an open channel? It makes no sense to me. If you call up your buddy in another guild and tell him on the phone that your guild was going to attack his guild would you be surprised if they ambushed you next time you logged in.
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And your statement proves the point that you can't seperate what happens IC, and what happens ooc.
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oh interesting, where I said about open channel? everything happend in tells...
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Fair enough, then. Tells are OOC by nature and do not need [] which is where I mistook your meaning. My question regarding the phone scenario becomes even more apt.
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I guess the point of this is, that people can't keep ooc information as ooc information. Not depending on the information. Socia could have said "whatever" (like she brought up the gay example).
People who claim to be good role players treat other chars IC for ooc happenings, for OOC rumors. I don't blame people who don't know much about roleplaying. But i blame those who do know what ic and ooc is and still use information given in [] in charachter. Every of those complaints when someone does not use [] in main chat and at the same time they simply ignore the [] and get the information ic.
The same scenario is about alt chars. Some people you can explain several times that char1 != char2 != char3 and so on. Still they keep caling you char1 when you're logged in as char3 - even in main chat when others are around.
@bilbous: Tells are not always ooc. If the person stands next to you it could be used as whisper. Also for sending messages via groffel-post :) And socia used the [] to make it sure for everyone that it is ooc.
Cheers, Cebot
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I guess the point of this is, that people can't keep ooc information as ooc information. Not depending on the information
And sadly this things happen to more and more people and quite a few I didn't expect to do so. Disappointing, is all I can say. :(
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And to be expected. Few people can know something without their characters knowing it as well. Something to do with them getting too attached to their characters.
My advise is think before you say something OOC and never talk about plans.
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Also do not always assume the worst just because you don't understand how information leaked out.You're drawing conclusions for which you have no evidence .. it is still possible that whoever is involved got their information in a completely IC way which you don't know about.
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I spreaded ooc word about getiing info about imperium and possible attack on them.. making sure that it is visible ooc I used []
it is still possible that whoever is involved got their information in a completely IC way which you don't know about.
Yes, some people might have got it in an IC way. But still, since the information originated OOC, someone must have gotten it wrong and pulled it into IC. That's the whole idea really... Some people not being able to make the difference. If X tells something OOC to Y and Y takes it IC to Z, of course Z has no fault in this matter.
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Who says it was only stated OOC? Maybe someone else from the involved guild mentioned it IC, maybe someone eavesdropped on a conversation? Who knows ... sometimes jumping to conclusions can lead to the wrong ones.
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Zan don't react if you don't know what you are talking about or please just read what others already said, NO I DID SPREAD OOC RUMOR just to see this and point this out because I was gettiong angry of ooc becoming ic, now when I see how it went I could even start pointing finger on people, but would that be worth of it?
Only thing I'm doing is making you people think about it and start making difference between OOC and IC. no they had no chance to learn about it IC.
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That's all I'm doing as well, making people think in general ;) So I think I'll react anyways if I have something to say .. always keep an open mind.
P.S.: You already pointed your finger in a general direction, I'm not sure if that was worth it either.
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no i didn't pointed finger as I didn't say where this thing started and where it changed to IC. Yes make people think and don't mix OOC and IC or this game will go down wery quickly.
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Thing is if you deceive people OOC they can get hurt OOC because they cant seperate IC from OOC the same way they cant do it vice versa. They will rarely go along with your RPs if you don't give them an OOC heads up unless your name starts with GM or Under.
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no i didn't pointed finger as I didn't say where this thing started and where it changed to IC. Yes make people think and don't mix OOC and IC or this game will go down wery quickly.
My bad .. looks like you really didn't, your sentences can be a bit hard to follow sometimes but I'm assuming that's because you're not natively english :P
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I would just say for problems like this clear it up OOCly. Sometimes people don't pay attention if you don't use [] which is why I do even in tells. Some people disregard them and take everything ICly anyways. If someone finds out information in what you think is an OOC way approach them, make sure they know you are speaking OOCly and have them explain how they found the information. If they give a good IC reason then I'd say let it go but if they have no reason or its OOC (like saying that you told them even though you said it OOCly) then ask them to fix their mistake. If all that fails then just don't rp with them.
Another thing is not to make information too hard to find out ICly. When you tell someone something OOCly and they want to know it ICly even a good rper might make a bad excuse. Try and leave clues, even if they have to be difficult ones. But don't leave someone no chance at all, that usually leads to making the "mistake" of making OOC IC in the first place.
At least thats my opinion :)
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I say it suits you right.
Out of character conversations shouldn't have anything to do with your character (to state the obvious). Casual chat, short reference. This sort of thing. If you use it to spread in character related information you would do better expecting it to spread rather quickly as such. There's just too many potential advantages that can be taken out of such behaviour, so it is only fair that you'll get certain disadvantages as well. To give an example: You want to prepare a well coordinated attack, but you are afraid that you have spies in your guild. So what do you do? Make sure everyone know about it by using out of character channels and make it impossible for spies to use it in any way because their characters never actually heard it. Briliant.
I kind of miss the times when there was no distinction between ooc and ic. At least back then everything was clear and people didn't whine over anything of this sort. If you can't keep the information to yourself, chances are you aren't the best person to hold the secrets. Either deal with it or work on it. Don't whine on the forums.
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I have an interesting take on this that makes me agree with Sir Draklar. I once created a thief character for the purpose of giving good folks something to bounce their RP off. He was not an evil man. In fact, the way I played him, he was very likable, always smiling, and treated everyone with great respect. That is how I made his In character description.
However, behind those smiles, he would cut your purse in a blink, and be on his way. This was also done without any ill intent on his part. In his mind, he was doing folks a favor by teaching them the value of their things. This is how I gave this info to people in the character description -after- the IC info:
THIS IS OOC INFORMATION YOUR CHARACTER WILL NOT KNOW.
-This character is a thief. He is very good at his trade, and has never been caught. He is also new to this city. He may approach you in /tell if you are deemed a good target. It is your choice to take part in the RP. If not, he will decide you are not a good target after all.
I RPed with him for about a day, and did go through with a few pickpockets. Most people turned out to be 'not a good target after all'. One however, who up to that point I had considered a good roleplayer, took one look at me and turned to his friend with a sour look. "Watch out for that one. He is a thief."
I immediately sent him a tell asking how, exactly, he knew this. He responded that his character had seen me around through the years, and had noticed things vanishing. I re-informed him that my character had just came into this city, so he would not have seen him before. The response to that still gives me cringes. "I am a 1000 year old elf, and I have been everywhere." Instead of arguing an entirely pointless argument with the fool, I smiled and walked away. In retrospect, I should have asked him how the trip through the Portal was.
Lesson learned: If you want to keep a secret, keep it secret. Test successful. This lead to keeping almost -all- of the info in my RPs secret from everyone, even those helping in them.
I suggest you do the same.
Bonus riddle: “If you have it, you want to share it. If your share it, you haven’t got it.”
edit: Also, a great many people have noticed (and sometimes figure out my secret characters) by my use of double brackets to be sure some thick head knows it is OOC for sure. [[yey for OOC]]
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I think you can hardly complain about yon 1000 year old elf when you yourself "have never been caught." It seems just as convenient a character device as the others great age perhaps that was what he thought too. I do agree with keeping secret that which is supposed to be secret.
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I think you can hardly complain about yon 1000 year old elf when you yourself "have never been caught." It seems just as convenient a character device as the others great age perhaps that was what he thought too. I do agree with keeping secret that which is supposed to be secret.
this is tough to rap my mind around, He sais hes never been caught.. but theirs no way to prove he has or hasn't. If he sais he hasn't then probably hasn't, for if he was caught(also keep in mind he is a thief) he would be in a jail cell somewhere, or dead.
Also this would be a prime example of OOC knowledge going IC, YOU may know he hasn't been caught, but your character doesn't even know hes a thief until your missing some money, also you wouldn't know right away who it was.
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Well, the borders between IC and OOC are thin. And like others already said, if you want something to be secret, keep it a secret. Saying: "OOC: what i tell you now is secret, so dont bring this information any further" or putting this sentence in brackets needs to be avoided. And i even see a difference between game related and game non-related OOC. Picasso, the last superbowl and whatever is obviously game non related OOC, guilds, guildwars and such things being put into brackets is game related OOC, which I am trying to avoid, unless its a newbie asking 'how to get money in this game' and such.
I had an order for 2 short swords some time ago. I didn't know the guy who wanted them, only seen him around. Now I was being nice and gave him a reduction on the price for a pair and we communicated via tell, which was IC (hello good sir, blah blah blah). After I told him that i had the swords ready, I got a tell, saying: "lol, this Rongar dude is just stupid, he even gave me a reduction for the pair. :D i guess i could get a 30k profit, when i sell the sh*t to someone else. :P "
He obviously didn't want this tell to reach ME, he sent it by mistake. So this information was OOC (even though it was without brackets) and I got it on an OOC way, my character didn't know nothing about it. BUT, if you had been in my place, would you still have sold him the swords?
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This is impossible to keep straight even in pen and paper games.
If you do not want it known or acted upon you must keep it to yourself or rely on the maturity of those who are playing with you.
Good rpers who can make the distinction well enough not to ruin an rp as well as people who are good enough to not always have to "win" an rp also exist.
Good luck :)
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Bonus riddle: “If you have it, you want to share it. If your share it, you haven’t got it.”
Secret.
As for the matter of the OOC going IC truly there are only 2 ways to solve this.
1)Make sure you give the info to a person who is good at RolePlay and will not use it as IC knowlege.Or make sure it doesent matter if he knows it ICly or OOCly.
2)Give info out on a need-to-know basis.Personaly i think that it will also make your character more realistic since obiously you dont go telling everyone about your diary or that you like that girl. :D
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Everyone should just be IC all the time like me lol. Actually I will admit to an odd [brb fone] or [afk for 2 mins] but that's generally the extent of my OOC activities. Although I did have a quick coversation with Irick the other day OOC discussing character speech patterns. Just "be" your character, leave the player in the part of your mind where your imagination is in check and don't let them enter yliakum.
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As someone who is in a guild that is often the target of alt-espionage... I can sympathize with people being irritated by it.
Though.. Zanzibar is, in my opinion, correct. -- You should do more background checks... you should also keep an eye out for tell-tale speech patterns [typing] with any you suspect of being a spy, but of course... that takes a lot of work. Also keep your lower ranks uninformed and keep your secret plans amongst your top-ranks only. - If you trust someone with all the guild's knowledge in the first week or two that they join... you're a fool.
However... anyone who plays a spy with one of their alts... should (again, my opinion!!) actually meet up and report things back to their real master in public (can be somewhere discrete.. but the meeting and dialog should take place openly) to at least give the chance of being listened to.
If I ever get an alt character into a guild to spy on them (I'm talking hypothetically as I haven't done this yet!)... that alt character will not feed information back via /tells and will not pass information through an alternate character. He or she will have to hunt down someone in the guild they're really beholden to and report back in public chat.
I guess I'm trying to say... there's a good way to do alt-espionage... and then the (already prevalent) bad way.
The good way has the potential to be interesting, even exciting roleplay.
The bad way... well... that's why people complain about alt-espionage.
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Then I suggest not using alts but using real other players as spies. This automatically eliminates many of the risks and makes for far more interesting roleplays.
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/me slaps himself...
^^ My last post... meant for the other thread about IC/OOC. ;)
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what if I say someone [I'm gay], next day people in game start attacking my fenki char because she's gay?
Then some players should get banned for bigotry.
Though.. Zanzibar is, in my opinion, correct. -- You should do more background checks.
Thank you. I don't know why my post was deleted either. (Oh wait, I do, but we're not allowed to talk about it on this forum.)
seperating IC from OOC is something most players just can't wrap their heads around... if you want something secret IC best to keep it as such OOC as well.
Yes. Besides, when you know everything OOC, you are no longer role-playing - you're play-acting.
And your statement proves the point that you can't seperate what happens IC, and what happens ooc.
The difference between IC and OOC is grey, not black and white. We're talking about a computer game where you use the knowledge of the player to advance the prowess of the character. Gameplay is coloured by staying in character, and part of the colour comes from playing dumb when the character is presented with information it "shouldn't" have been exposed to before.
no i didn't pointed finger as I didn't say where this thing started and where it changed to IC. Yes make people think and don't mix OOC and IC or this game will go down wery quickly.
Characters will go down, but the game will remain. The Order of Daggers - and the guild they migrated from - have built up a truly horrible reputation for themselves. None of the regulars I talk to want anything to do with them. Once they realize just how alone they are, they will dissipate. They have some hardcore denial going on right now, but it will pass.
THIS IS OOC INFORMATION YOUR CHARACTER WILL NOT KNOW.
Translated: We are now play-acting, not role-playing.
I RPed with him for about a day, and did go through with a few pickpockets. Most people turned out to be 'not a good target after all'. One however, who up to that point I had considered a good roleplayer, took one look at me and turned to his friend with a sour look. "Watch out for that one. He is a thief."
I immediately sent him a tell asking how, exactly, he knew this. He responded that his character had seen me around through the years, and had noticed things vanishing. I re-informed him that my character had just came into this city, so he would not have seen him before. The response to that still gives me cringes. "I am a 1000 year old elf, and I have been everywhere." Instead of arguing an entirely pointless argument with the fool, I smiled and walked away. In retrospect, I should have asked him how the trip through the Portal was.
First, it was wrong for you to go OOC.
Second, he should have just said "My character knows a thief when he sees one."