PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilbous on June 19, 2007, 05:09:42 am
-
Having recently perused the books in Jayose's library I would like to commend the team for the variety of subjects covered. I also like the fact that the books cannot be taken from the shelves anymore.
Having said that I would like to say that I found some of the texts confusing and there were a fair number of awkward phrasings which appear to be due to thinking in one language and writing in another. A good effort but needs polish.
Should I get into specifics?
-
We're glad you like them. Also keep in mind that Jayose's library isn't the only source of books. :)
You can get into specifics, but it's really not necessary. Settings has been aware of the need to polish the books for some time and we'll be tackling them in the near future.
-
ok no problem, just trying to be helpful. I won't make anymore bug reports about them either.
-
You can read the books on the shelf? Like...the repeating texture of books that look like they do nothing? The ones that go through the whole library? Or am I missing something. It sounds like it'd always be nice and entertaining if I get bored sometime soon.
-
Right-click on a shelf, and you should get a pop-up menu with an Examine button.
-
Some of the bookcases offer a context menu, to read a book inside a bookcase I find you need to right-click on the book a couple times.
-
Sweet! Whats some of the topics? :sorcerer:
-
Sweet! Whats some of the topics? :sorcerer:
Just go to the library and find out yourself. :detective:
-
Camel Sutures, A Veterinary Surgical Primer :oops:
-
You can read the books on the shelf? Like...the repeating texture of books that look like they do nothing? The ones that go through the whole library? Or am I missing something.
It's not really you who miss something, it's rather the game. ;P
I except the majority of PS players don't know you can read the books. It is because, that by default you except that you can't click a thing you see (like in html, we have links, which change when you move mouse over, think how it would be if they wouldn't :\).
I proposed few times, that a cursor (or some other indicator) would change if you move mouse over something you can click and you are in range. For example:
a book shelf: cursor change, range: 2 m
a random item in he world with description: cursor change, range: 2 m
a hidden brick in a wall: cursor change if you have skills, range: 2 m
Everyone who can make it happen, probably know about it already, but i think it is good to recall this. It is almost critical feature, because you put efford into describing items and other stuff, but majority of the people don't even know about it.
-
That sounds like a fab idea, cursor change would make the gameplay much more intuative I think.
-
Given how much stuff in Hydlaa has actual description, this idea could easily turn ridiculous.
-
Ridiculous? Is it ridiculous that when you move mouse at my forum nick you know you can click it because the cursor change? If you could explain, because in-game cursor change would be a bit more complex by the range bit. Coz moving a mouse is not enough, you have to be close enough, so the cursor change indicate if you are in range also. That one is also important.
And still, I suppose if i tried to examine 10 random things in hydlaa, less than 5 would be successful attempts, the rest would be because there is no description, or i were not in range.
And we are not speaking about Hydlaa only there, but the whole world, also this yet to come.
-
It is ridiculous when your cursor keeps changing because room you are in happens to have a description by itself and it is ridiculous when descriptions indicating closer and careful observations are exposed to just about anyone running their cursors over everything at random... It is also ridiculous to believe the cursor would have such a limited observation range, considering it isn't how it is right now, and realistically, characters see from distance larger than 2 meters, full stop.
There may be some basis for the bookshelves part, but I think the idea is to have all the bookshelves contain books, which in turn makes your idea redundant.
-
Which one of these two cursors look ridiculous?
(http://psgrafika.republika.pl/pointer_desc.png)(http://psgrafika.republika.pl/pointer_normal.png)
I say none.
Even if you happen to be in a room where everything is closer to you than 2m and everything has description (what isn't so common) i can't see how such a cursor is going to disturb someone (more people are more disturbed by the lack of the feature).
When you enter a room and start moving mouse all over the place, this means you are actally looking for something and then you still have to click it. (or do you prefer people clicking all over the place every 5 pixels to see if they find something? As it is now) I don't know, maybe you are worried by hidden places? Then we need skill, which if high enough let you see something what is normally invisible to a commoner. Or would you be satisfied with an action you have to perform in order to reveal hidden places on some given area.
The pointer has such a limited 2m range (yes, it has now, you can't examine 10m away bookshelf, the feature is there) and characters do see further, but you don't see details of a mushroom if you are 10m away. Besides from 10m away the texture is enough detailed that you do not need description, you need it when you are close enough the texture lack detail.
This is not about bookshelves only, but the whole world.
-
(or do you prefer people clicking all over the place every 5 pixels to see if they find something? As it is now)
I don't know. I found it quite intuitive that if I want to see description of a bottle, I click on the bottle. If I want to read description of a painting, I click on the painting. If I want to read description of a bench... Well guess what I click on? I don't think it's the game that misses something here; it's the players.
But no, perhaps it's normal thing that every object having something special about it (numbers or whatever) by absolute coincidence takes every character's attention. Surely that's the way to do it. Just about as right as Neverwinter Nights, where by "coincidence" the only barrels and crates that would get highlighted were the ones, which actually had something inside.
Most (if not all) stuff that stands out is supposed to have a description. Lookout towers, buildings that stand out architecture-wise, various small objects placed around, statues, other bits of public use. How can this be so hard to figure out is beyond me.
Things that actually have description (bookshelves don't) can be examined from way beyond 2 meters (it's only normal buildings and statues can). Do check that out.
-
I would click on the bottle if I have been sure i get description, but what i get instead is waiting, during which i wonder if the description will never come, coz it just isn't there. Or it won't come because i'm trying to click some pixel, which won't give me description. Or i'm just too far.
So I don't know what the problem is, but as the bottle is supposed to have description, I move closer, click somewhere else and in the end, when it turn the bottle did not have description, I'm really disappointed and most likely won't try to seek any other description of any other object.
I'm already very annoyed when I try to target someone, I wait (because of lag) and what i get? Nothing. How long should i wait to click again? Will the packet with description come? But the character already ran away and I'm left with nothing.
Trying to get description from a simple object you waste 20 seconds doing in fact nothing.
I'm not convincing to highligh only boxes, which hide something. If everything is supposed to have description, there won't be special boxes, there will be ability to be sure you aren't wasting time doing nothing. Any box with description may hide something, but not every.
If there are 100 trees in a forest and you are supposed to find some specific tree, it won't be that easy to just move mouse around, because in the forest there are like 10 types of different trees and each type have description. Then it is cloned 10 times or 100 times for 1000 trees and each tree have description. A changed pointer won't be indicator of the exact tree you are supposed to find.
I will check out the range, but AFAIR i were once testing on the Hydlaa plaza floor example and it gave me no description when i been like 10m away or so.
-
I would say to make it an option. As I have said countless times before, and as the discusion above demonstrates, not everyone plays the same, or likes the same interface. That is why you can move all the windows around and give them alternate themes.
Option menu: Use default curser. Use veiw cursers.
Check one, and be happy.
*edit* I have heard of "Dying to to read a book." but never had it meant so litterally. Having to kill yourself to go read books is kinda silly.
-
I would click on the bottle if I have been sure i get description, but what i get instead is waiting, during which i wonder if the description will never come, coz it just isn't there. Or it won't come because i'm trying to click some pixel, which won't give me description. Or i'm just too far.
So I don't know what the problem is, but as the bottle is supposed to have description, I move closer, click somewhere else and in the end, when it turn the bottle did not have description, I'm really disappointed and most likely won't try to seek any other description of any other object.
Man, you're good at finding problems.
I just click and it works.
-
I just click and it works.
And i do and it doesn't ;) Probably wouldn't raise a discussion if it didn't ;P
UtM has a good point there!
-
On cursor change:
The act of running your cursor over everything is "actively searching". It's the same as doing it with your hand or eye in RL. This coupled with a range requirement seems like a reasonable way to implement "looking for items with additional information".
"Hey, the cursor changed, I found something that requires further investigation!"
I can also see setting a flag on that item once you've "investigated it further" so it will no longer change the cursor on that item. So in the beginning, "everything" changes the cursor and eventually only new items will change the cursor.
Of course as UTM suggests, this could be further configured through the user interface options.
I would also like a spell that can be cast that will "outline" new or hidden objects. "Look, that book is glowing blue. Maybe I should read it."
Just my opinion.
-
I have heard of "Dying to to read a book." but never had it meant so litterally. Having to kill yourself to go read books is kinda silly.
If your character wouldn't do that, then don't do it with that character. The Death Realm is a thing far bigger than what the current art shows you - and books aren't the only goodies it will hold.
-
That sounds like a good idea Araye. One thing I find is that my brain will kind of selectively edit out such a small change as between the two cursor images posted on the last page so that it won't always register a change if I expect to see no change. Even If I do expect a change my eye get a little glassy at times. :)
-
I can also see setting a flag on that item once you've "investigated it further" so it will no longer change the cursor on that item. So in the beginning, "everything" changes the cursor and eventually only new items will change the cursor.
"Gotta read 'em all!" feature? You people need to realise some of the objects that have descriptions at the same time are objects normal characters wouldn't bother investigating.
Many descriptions are in fact details about the setting that characters would learn over a longer period of time. What this is used for? How does this work? Oh, some rumours? It completely destroys gaming experience when you have a convenient feature that allows you to read all that stuff by swinging your cursor around and learning everything within a day or two.
...
And then the players get bored with nothing new added, thus having nothing better to do than whining on the boards.
-
Draklar, I agree with you in that it should not just pop up the information. I think it should just change the cursor. The player must take the initiative to "read the book" by right clicking and pressing the "eye" to examine before the "flag" is set.
I also agree that most items like a bench in the park are not worth the effort to most to investigate. I think I also heard in Xillix's podcast that he doesn't want common, unimportant items to have a description as everyone knows that it is just a bench. So I was assuming that when I made my post.
-
Just changing the cursor would also allow player to learn everything on the go. There's no difference.
I think I also heard in Xillix's podcast that he doesn't want common, unimportant items to have a description as everyone knows that it is just a bench. So I was assuming that when I made my post.
I do believe he meant that there's no point describing how something looks, because player already sees that thanks to graphics.
Instead benches have description that unfolds some tiny piece of background about Hydlaa.
What character sees, player sees. Descriptions are just a bonus.
-
And then the players get bored with nothing new added, thus having nothing better to do than whining on the boards.
How come I already got bored? I reed like 10 of different descriptions? ;P mainly in magic shop (i gues i tried to read everything what was there, so maybe a bit more). I'm sure there are a lot more, but how come I got bored without reading them? I gues you already realised you have a point, but it isn't the only point of viev ;)
I can also see setting a flag on that item once you've "investigated it further" so it will no longer change the cursor on that item. So in the beginning, "everything" changes the cursor and eventually only new items will change the cursor.
Of course as UTM suggests, this could be further configured through the user interface options.
If sucha feature i would like to see it optional too, because i just want simple cursor change indicating i can click a thing. I'm in range, there is no glitch.
I think UtM suggested just the pointer change to be an option, but yeah, everything could be an option, i gues its what you could mean ;)
I would also like a spell that can be cast that will "outline" new or hidden objects. "Look, that book is glowing blue. Maybe I should read it."
/me doesn't like spells which make life easier on a random way without any logic.
Even spells have to work somehow. if you want such a spell you need specify how it works. Then goes deciding how (maybe it wouldn't be as simple as pressing macro), and then how advanced is such a spell. It may be tought.
There may be a spell which cause a plank to be nailed to another plank. It sounds so simple, but for a mage it may be extremaly hard. Who knows how the spell exactly works.
One thing I find is that my brain will kind of selectively edit out such a small change as between the two cursor images posted on the last page so that it won't always register a change if I expect to see no change. Even If I do expect a change my eye get a little glassy at times. :)
That's the whole point, you are lucky that you would see the change and when you realy wantd it ;P But yeah, you would really need to want it ;)
-
Niko, you make a good point about the spell. It should have a purpose and I should have thought it out better before posting the suggestion.
It could outline things hidden by magic - a reveal spell. Or it could be a tool to help the mage find something lost or something desired.
A spell that points out "the devs just made this building/book/npc/tool" (as you note) would be a silly idea.
Next time I'll think the thought out more completely before posting any such ideas.
-
Your spell could just be "display significance". It might not be significant to your character at the moment or it might but the fact that that there is more to it than there appears means a dev thought it had some significance. Another term might be "detect exceptional item" as the rule is most things are no more than they seem.
-
Draklar, for arena description it's 6,5 m. But i gues for items like potion on a table, it shouln't be more than 2 m. In library this should be also 2m, because its kind of how far you would reach without moving too much.
-
6,5 meters? Were these ranges recently added or something? Because I read the Arena's description while standing on the cliffs surrounding it.
-
i meant a description inside arena. the one describing place for pvp
-
i meant a description inside arena. the one describing place for pvp
Perhaps having a NPC and some kind of barrier blocking newbies to come inside could help, you should then say "I want to fight there" and the NPC would open the barrier for you to die. Or perhaps a huge skull symbol hanging on the ceiling or something alike to warn graphically about the danger of that area for unwary newbies, so those who don't always check descriptions of areas and just got into PlaneShift won't definitively step there by mistake..
-
It's not what i been writing about Raleigh... Anyway it is fracking obvious that if you go to arena you want to fight, you don't need a sign for it.
-
What character sees, player sees. Descriptions are just a bonus.
I have to disagree with this. Sight is just one of your senses, and one of only two you can give in a 'realistic' way, the other being sound. You can not touch something and tell what it feels like just at a glance. You can not smell the odors coming from it. Is it hot or cold? Does your character ever recognize an object he has looked at before? The answer to that last one is no.
When I go to the bookstore to see what new books there are, I do not look at each book individually. I glance over entire shelves quickly, allowing me to see -just- the books I have not seen before, while passing over the ones that were there last time. I could not even tell you -what- those old books were, just that they are not new. That is a trait that has developed in humans during our long past. I am not sure what the actual term is, but I like to call it the "what is new?" trait.
It is the same for many things. Go into you house, room, or any familiar place and glance around without looking for anything. You do not really -see- anything new, as your brain has recorded the info in that room so many times already that it just recycles old memories and splices them together after you leave, telling you that you haveone again been to your room.
Now, if there was a single new thing in your room, the story would be much different. Your eyes would be immediately drawn to it. Your brain would shift gears into high alert "what is that?" mode. You would not notice things that have been in the room for the last hundred times you have been in there, but -that thing- would jump out in your mind. It would be recorded as "the time I first saw -that thing- in my room".
Another example. Let's say we change just one word in your favorite movie. Not even a big change. Even if you did not notice exactly what it was, you would feel that -something- was not right.
Another example. Go into a place you have never been in before and look around for a while. Study it. Now exit and have someone change something. Going back in, you will be able to pick it out right quick.
Now, try doing that with a bookcase in a game with a repeating and limited texture.
Last example. This is one you can not do by simply adding new textures. If -nothing- is visually changed about a familiar place, but the smell or feel is not the same, you will also immediately pick up on it.
So, yes. I agree that things you have not seen before -should- be highlighted different than things you have. If you have been to the library before, new books -should- jump out at you (as they do in my real life anyways). If something has been moved, you character should notice, even if you do not.
When everything is new, you notice everything. When only a few things are new, you will notice those things first. And that, my friends, is simply the way it is.