PlaneShift

Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: rtrentc on July 30, 2007, 12:48:45 am

Title: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: rtrentc on July 30, 2007, 12:48:45 am
I have been playing a crafter now for a little bit, and this is where I think a lot can be done to give the game more flair and make more use of items already in the game.


1). Currently for the crafting of Armor and Weapons we have the following metals available
    A) Copper
    B) Bronze
    C) Iron
    D) Steel.

There are other metals that can be mined, but if you are being true to chemistry and physics, then you wouldn't
use Zinc, Mercury,Silver or Gold except as ornamentation.

2). As it stands right now, unless changed, only steel will be used for weapons and iron for shields.

This means that we have at least two metals that even if you added the rules for them wouldn't be used on shields and three on weapons, because steel weapons and iron shields (steel if you allowed it) are the best. And who is going to make inferior weapons when all of his competitors can also make steel. So if you want to see some more variance in the composition of weapons then you need to structure it so that it is the less effective weapons that can be made first. The Copper, the Bronze, the Iron swords and clubs. (not to sure about the copper but I know that bronze was in use long before iron or steel.). This is not to say that your current system doesn't work, just that there is no justification for making bronze. You have an alloy in the rules that wouldn't be used to make weapons at all since steel exists.

So here is my proposition as it were.

  Metals used
   A) Copper
   B) Bronze (alloy of copper and tin)
   C) Brass (alloy of copper and zinc)
   D) Iron
   C) Steel (alloy of Iron and Carbon aka Coal)

  Weapons and Shields

   A) Low levels use copper.
   B) Mid Low levels use bronze
   C) Mid levels use brass
   D) Mid High levels use iron
   E) High levels use steel

  Metallurgy From Low to High

   A) Melting Copper, Copper ingots
   B) Melting Tin, Tin Ingots. Copper Stocks
   C) Melting Zinc, Zinc Ingots, Tin Stocks, Making Bronze, Bronze Ingots
   D) Making Brass, Brass Ingots, Zinc Stock, Bronze Stock
   E) Melting Iron, Iron Ingots, Brass Stocks
   F) Melting Silver,Mercury. Silver Ingots, Mercury ingots, Iron Stocks
   G) Making Steel, Steel ingots, Silver Stock Mercury Stock
   H) Melting Gold, Gold ingots, Steel Stock
   I) Gold Stock.


As you can see from my list it would cause more variety of crafted items to enter the game, It would extend the length of time needed to master your craft.

What I don't know is because this radically alters the availability of the various metals what you would have to do about all the other items currently running around in the game. It would certainly force the creation of a greater variety of weapons, shields and armor.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Bepules on July 30, 2007, 01:23:59 am

Just as addition: The only useful metal for crafting is steel. There is no way to use iron stocks, neither for weapons nor for shields (you can only make shield parts but you cannot combine them to a shield)

If you think about the use of metals in the prehistorical order (after Christian Thomson's so called 3 period system) you have to use at first stone, then copper, then bronze, then iron and then steel.
But PlaneShift is a fantasy world, only with a medivial touch, means we don't have to use this order. 

For now there is already a order in metalurgy: iron, steel, silver and bronze and finally gold.

What I would prefer is that you can add some minerals like diamonds if you are a more skilled crafter to sharpe your blades. This weapons would have a higher slash than normal steel weapons then.

In general I agree with rtrentc, there are so many different types of weapons ingame but you can only craft a few types. Only axemaking allows you to make two non standart types of axes, but these are still bugged.
What I want to say: There are e.g. bronze short swords in the game as well as bronze but you cannot use bronze to craft bronze swords.
An other interesting thing would be if a very high skilled magician could be able to make dark or fire or other types of magic weapons from crafted weapons. But that's another issue...
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Zan on July 30, 2007, 11:33:37 am
Well I would hope that this is on the to-do list because it's a very logical suggestion.
Title: Changing the order of reality.
Post by: rtrentc on July 30, 2007, 06:21:49 pm
If you wish to keep the current order of metals suggested in the previous reply (iron, steel, silver, bronze (add brass), gold) then we could allow this under the assumption that the crystal energy flowing through planeshift fundementally alters the structure of alloys at the molecular level. This would allow the non real ordering to be explained. Otherwise you will have to reorder the system to put the alloys into the correct order as seen in the real world.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Farren Kutter on July 30, 2007, 06:38:39 pm
rtrentc is just trying to say that bronze (and the others) coming after steel makes little to no sense :)
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on July 30, 2007, 06:58:00 pm
Also, iron and coal, - components needed for steel are less rare than for bronze, what makes steel even more superior. Of course in Yliakum natural resources are  maybe differently rare.

All allys worse than steel won't be used unless for other purposes.

But maybe some alloys are better suited for magic bearer?
Who said that in future warfare equipment is all what we are going to craft?

Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Bepules on July 30, 2007, 07:17:53 pm

Yes, I think of tools like rock picks and hammers, or even kitchen tools for cooks would be great to make from metals.

Quote
Also, iron and coal, - components needed for steel are less rare than for bronze, what makes steel even more superior. Of course in Yliakum natural resources are  maybe differently rare.

The question which material you should be able to work on at first is not a question of the quantity of it, it is a question how easy you can work on it, means which has a low smelting temperature and which allows little mistakes in the amount of the part of an alloy.

once again the prehistorical order metal was used:

- at first copper
- then bronze (maybe an accidentally alloy made at a place in east europe where tin and copper can be find at the same place)
- same time with bronze gold and silver
- at last iron, later then hardened with coal, maybe accidentally too from the roman province Noricum where iron can be found with a high amount of carbon

But I see no need to make a sense with working on the metals, it is Yliakum and not the real world. It's like crafting, nobody would sharpen a blade and than hammer it several times to raise the quality of the blade. In Yliakum we do. An other example is that we cannot use molten iron to make steel, in real world this is the normal way to make steel...

Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Unnamed_Source on July 30, 2007, 10:01:11 pm
Quote from: rtrentc on July 30, 2007, 12:48:45 am
There are other metals that can be mined, but if you are being true to chemistry and physics, then you wouldn't use Zinc, Mercury,Silver or Gold except as ornamentation.
Everything looks great but this line doesn't wordwrap, could be an issue witht the forum, coul you please break it at "physics, then" all the same. thanks

I don't see a use for Mercury in PS, most of the uses in real life extend past the stage PS is supposed to be in, thermometers, thermostats, barometers, batteries, auto/electrical parts, and flouresent/neon lighting are the most common uses of Mercury. The one use Murcury has that would be natural to this setting would be of the amalgamation of silver or gold ingots. Later the Mercury is evporated to leave the pure silver or gold. Extracting it also is not done on a furnace directly but in a still, so that the evaporated Mercury gas is captured. Also if we are going to be mining mercury, lets call it cinnabar in it;s natural form. Likewise you will not get Mercury as solid ingots, as it is a liquid in room temperature.

I think the process for silver/gold refinment should be in reverse, first cast the Mercury with silver/gold to make an amalgam of silver/gold, then put it in the furnace to make it pure silver/gold as the Mercury evamporates, and finally recast it to make an ingot or stock. And that way Cinnabar needs to be mined and processed to extract the Mercury.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: bilbous on July 31, 2007, 05:09:22 am
Mercury makes a good ingredient for a poison, does it actually occur in the game?
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Illysia on July 31, 2007, 05:47:09 am
Isn't there a Chinese pyramid that is supposed to have a mercury river flowing in there (well at least back when it was made)? Mercury can be used as ornamentation aside from weapons.  :D And maybe that creepy barber/surgeon in Hydlaa uses it for medicinal purposes.  ;D
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: saladasalad on July 31, 2007, 06:10:46 am
IMO, all of the current materials should go and fictional Ylian materials should be created. I think that this would enhance the RP experience and the overall atmosphere of Yliakum, the history of the materials could be expanded.


I should mention IVAN (http://ivan.sourceforge.net/), an excellent, though long-abandoned, roguelike. IVAN has a unique (AFAIK) materials system where every single object has a materials property which determines certain properties such as strength, sharpness, etc. For PlaneShift, this would mean that items can be constructed from any material as long as there is some way to craft it. A diamond rock pick would be much more efficient that a standard iron one.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Farren Kutter on July 31, 2007, 06:33:03 am
Quote from: saladasalad on July 31, 2007, 06:10:46 am
IMO, all of the current materials should go and fictional Ylian materials should be created. I think that this would enhance the RP experience and the overall atmosphere of Yliakum, the history of the materials could be expanded.

No, bad idea. Since the world is based in a universe that is likely our own, the atomic elements would thus be the same, and their alloys as well. Twenty galaxies away, I am quite sure that gold is still gold on a planet or in a place of similar/same conditions as the earth. It is Yliaki, BTW, not Ylian.... Ylian is the name of the human race.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: saladasalad on July 31, 2007, 06:42:01 am
Quote from: Farren Kutter on July 31, 2007, 06:33:03 am
Quote from: saladasalad on July 31, 2007, 06:10:46 am
IMO, all of the current materials should go and fictional Ylian materials should be created. I think that this would enhance the RP experience and the overall atmosphere of Yliakum, the history of the materials could be expanded.

No, bad idea. Since the world is based in a universe that is likely our own,

I always assumed that the title PlaneShift was indicating that the game is not set in this universe.

Quote from: Farren Kutter on July 31, 2007, 06:33:03 am
the atomic elements would thus be the same, and their alloys as well. Twenty galaxies away, I am quite sure that gold is still gold on a planet or in a place of similar/same conditions as the earth.

The likelihood of them coming up with the same names for those materials is almost zero though. Then again. raising that argument would open a whole new can of worms though because they likely wouldn't speak English either. So yeah, good point.

Quote from: Farren Kutter on July 31, 2007, 06:33:03 am
It is Yliaki, BTW, not Ylian.... Ylian is the name of the human race.

Cheers, I was wondering about that.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on July 31, 2007, 11:25:24 am
The fact Ylian look like human, people breath and bilions of other facts prove the universe Yliakum is in, is built the same as our real universe. So atoms, molecles and so on. And if these, naturally formed resourcess will be more or less the same... depending on conditions how the Yliakum "planet" (or whatever) was built and influenced.
I'm not going to play expert, but realistically speaking, Yliakum should feel great lack of carbon, or its lack at all. Why? recall yourself how carbon we mine was created on Earth.
Considering Yliakum is hundreds kilometers inder the "ground" in a... stalactite ;D The place i would expect carbon if somewhere, is outside Yliakum, somewhere deep in the tunels, because maybe it got that deep once, in the past. I would expect great expeditions there. This would also make Yliakum a more unique and believable world. Add something special and real about it, something more than just the fact its inside stalactite, something a common player never care about if the world all around looks almost exactly like the world on planet surface.

Carbon inside stalactite? Only way i can imagine it, is by residuing, probably in chemical compounds and not in its pure form.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Zan on July 31, 2007, 12:09:34 pm
Carbon is a residue of life. Coal is formed by dead plants being crushed together under tons of earth. Yliakum has life (don't ask me how they got there in the first place :P) so it definitely has carbon and I guess there has been life down there long enough for it also to have coal.

As for the order of alloys ... they're ordered mostly from less useful to most useful here. But what about which is discovered first? In Yliakum we had the resources for steel before those for other alloys were available. So you could argue that steel was discovered first and the techniques for making it were spread among the smithing community before other newer (albeit less suited) alloys were experimented with?
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on July 31, 2007, 02:14:29 pm
Quote from: Zan on July 31, 2007, 12:09:34 pm
Carbon is a residue of life. Coal is formed by dead plants being crushed together under tons of earth. Yliakum has life (don't ask me how they got there in the first place :P) so it definitely has carbon and I guess there has been life down there long enough for it also to have coal.
Especially that Yliakum as we know it is 800 years old? ;P You know, when Talad and Laanx came, they found small cave and teared everythigng around it to form Yliakum as we know it. Honestly i doubt that there was enought of life capable of creating carbon resource, which we mine for. And even if it was there, it probably literally vaporised under the influence of Talad and Laanx magic, when the cave grew a lot bigger, than it was.
You know, the process is taking probably thousands times more than 800 years ;)
You still so definetly sure if your theory? ;)

Quote from: Zan on July 31, 2007, 12:09:34 pm
In Yliakum we had the resources for steel before those for other alloys were available. So you could argue that steel was discovered first
I hope you aren't misunderstanding technical difficulties of developing a game, with proper setting for that game?
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Zan on July 31, 2007, 03:28:26 pm
I'm still very sure of my theory .. carbon is present in many forms from the moment there is life. Coal is a whole other matter, it takes thousands of years like you said. By the way are you certain Yliakum was made susceptible to life 800 years ago? All I know is that it's inhabitants started counting about 750 years back. But there was life on Yliakum before there were people.

And there's always "Magic!" for an explanation :P

As for the latter, no I'm not mixing up anything .. I'm giving a plausible explanation. Namely the difference in discovery time/availability of certain materials. History on PS doesn't have to go exactly how it went on earth. So regardless of development, any random order can be explained adequately if the settings just claim that it is a lot more abundent and discovered first.

By the way I'm not saying thing should stay the way they are, I'm just giving a possible way of explaining it if they stay like this. (or until they change)
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on July 31, 2007, 04:31:40 pm
So, there were huge trees growing all around since the moment Yliakum was formed to the time people in Yliakum started counting a shared and one common time, of which we have 750 year now? In that time the trees managed to drown in a swamp after long hundred thousands of years turning into coal? ;P
Especially that the most probable place of a swampy terrain is at the bottom, where now mining is strictly forbidden btw ;P
Also keeping in mind that water errosion working activelly for hundred thousands of years would most likely take most of the material from the top to bottom, material, which we know as the levels ;P O yay, yeah the stalactite is going to fall /o\ /o\ Run for you lives!

I was also pretty sure it was dermorians wo brought the trees, but now when i reead the story, there is a chance it got changed over the long time of its existence on thbe main site, and additionally it looks that the dermorians never reached the Yliakum ;P The rest about the is speculation now.

I still fail to see how you can claim what you are.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Zan on August 01, 2007, 10:46:14 am
Ah but it's easy ... what you do is take the scientific part of your brain, reduce the power supply to it with about 75% and then re-evaluate the whole thing. That's how I play this game as well.

I never claimed it was a 100% watertight schientifically sufficient theory, it can't be ... but seeing this is a fantasy game in a world where there are things like magic and huge radiating crystals instead of a sun, who really cares. If you want a different reason I can think of several more who don't even try to be semi-realistic:

1) Talad and Laanx magically conjured coal into the ground when they created Yliakum.
2) There are glyphs buried underneath the earth which turn stone into coal at certain places
3) The Azure sun's radiation accelerates the normal process of decay of plantlife, turning large trees into coal over a course of a few years.
4) Pick whatever tale you want, add in a sniff of magic or abnormal physical circumstances, shake and you have yourself a adequate reason fit for any fantasy world.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on August 01, 2007, 12:03:21 pm
lol yeah thats easy ;D But would be much more fun if people go mining to stone labirynths. Not because i want it so much but because this would be natural consequence of living in a place like statalactite, strange to some resources. I was thinkig that the undergroud like ours shouldnt be really equal to all the other common worlds in other MMORPGS on planet surfaces wouldbe a little boring ;)
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Zan on August 01, 2007, 05:01:52 pm
Hmm .. That sure'd make the resource prices spike. The only place with good resources would be infested with dangerous critters. It could be interesting, large mining expeditions would be sent out by the government where temporary mining outposts are created in the Stone Labyrinths. They'd last only a few weeks/months before they are overrun or depleted. (Shouldn't be too hard to code a random mining outpost generator like that in the future)
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Farren Kutter on August 02, 2007, 07:35:01 pm
I think you guys missed the point on the metal timeline... It was meant that Steel is harder to get than bronze :P And harder to work with.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on August 02, 2007, 08:22:55 pm
But if there would be no coal in Yliakum, wouldnt steel production become harder in general? ;P
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Zan on August 03, 2007, 11:07:30 am
We dwelled off topic a little, I admit :P

Whether steel is harder to get (and consequently work with) than bronze in Yliakum ... entirely depends on the Devs.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Natrina on August 08, 2007, 05:04:55 pm
 Shouldn't the order of training follow that which, in real life, is harder to produce by the methods the game possesses? I dislike the "let's follow a pre-historic" order, PlaneShift has the technology to produce steel and it's obviously something shared by all the smiths (read: common knowledge), so it makes little sense to make each individual go through a historical order just for the sake of it. Unless it would be a smith tradition, that would make it more acceptable, I guess.

 For now it is true that only steel is used, but that is because the only "industry" we have is weapon and shield making, war things. Unless somehow steel stock becomes the cheapest metal, which it shouldn't, other metals will eventually be used just because they're cheaper. Money is currently hugely wrong, as is the economy in general, everyone is ridiculously rich these days by setting standards (how many of us couldn't afford a healthy, well trained pterosaur? Most of us has enough for a small squad of them, though law would keep us from that). Fixing the economy to become something realistic will take a long time, but my point is: don't make them force us to use all the materials just because the current economy deems it useless. When the economy is fixed and most people won't be able to afford steel weapons as if they're bread, all the other materials will, likely, be used.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Unnamed_Source on August 08, 2007, 07:12:36 pm
Like metallurgy, Smiths should start out working with the simpler materials like tin or copper and graduating to working with steel. Then you will see more weapon choices, as there will always be more new smiths than masters.

Down grade the NPC  weapon drops to lesser base materials, like tin or copper and the occational bronze/brass. Let them keep there magical abilities but make sure that the magical incentives do not surpass the stats of a standard weapon of the next grade.

NPC weapon drops with a malus prefix or sufix should be discontinued and replaced with a weapon of the next lowest rank and/or make it so they need repair before they become useful/valuable. ie 0/50.

Have the standard weapons sold at the shops be made of the lowest grade material so there is an incentive to grow up from there.

After which have a weapon wipe, so everyone starts out on equal footing and there are no old weapons still roaming the world.

Some larger weapons should only be made of the higher materials. is no tin Claymores
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on August 09, 2007, 10:38:33 pm
Quote from: Unnamed_Source on August 08, 2007, 07:12:36 pm
Down grade the NPC  weapon drops to lesser base materials, like tin or copper and the occational bronze/brass. Let them keep there magical abilities but make sure that the magical incentives do not surpass the stats of a standard weapon of the next grade.

NPC weapon drops with a malus prefix or sufix should be discontinued and replaced with a weapon of the next lowest rank and/or make it so they need repair before they become useful/valuable. ie 0/50.
The fact in PS you go hunting for gladiators for instance, is all wrong in the first place. Decreasing the loot or something along the lines won't really change a thing.
The whole philosophy of killing NPCs in PS has to change if we want to have economy and needs Natrina describes. It would have to be simply real.
It's where the plan of having OOC and IC activities coexist fails. we can have RP game or not RP game where people RP outside game mehanics. Because you can't enjoy PLers if you take out the mob spawning, which spawn just for the sake to being killed so they can respawn again and so the PLer can have a sack full of swords he can bring on the market ;)
Another recent topic http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29555.0 where that concept change would help ;)

Hehe, someone could sey i'm going off topic, bit there are complex topics and simple ;) this one  is complex if you look deeper.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Jeraphon on August 10, 2007, 04:46:44 pm
I'm on board with the idea of metal progression. We've discussed it before with our crafting guy. I definitely think it's a good idea, if for no other reason than to spread miners out. :) And of course, because it just makes sense that you can't start working with steel really quickly.

So please, keep up the good work discussing this. We ARE listening.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: bilbous on August 10, 2007, 08:41:44 pm
One thing that needs to be considered is that while the settings say that Yliakum is inside a stalactite the general consistency of the minerals that it is made of belies that fact. Since stalactites are formed by the ongoing deposit of minerals held in solution of water drippings there isn't likely to be a deposit of iron here another of gold there, for example. What would likely happen is that there would be layers of a particular precipitate, in a manner similar to the growth rings of trees. Also the material would likely be homogeneous over a given space of time unless it happened that there was more than one path for the water to travel causing it to pick up different solutes.

From this I conclude that the term stalactite is used merely to indicate the conical shape of surrounding rock if it could be seen from the outside and not its origin or makeup. The type of mineral placement within the realm would appear to be more metamorphic or igneous in nature than sedimentary which is the basis of stalactites and stalagmites. Of course I am no expert.

With the inclusion of magic in the settings just about anything is possible.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: rtrentc on August 10, 2007, 11:17:21 pm
Quote from: Jeraphon on August 10, 2007, 04:46:44 pm
I'm on board with the idea of metal progression. We've discussed it before with our crafting guy. I definitely think it's a good idea, if for no other reason than to spread miners out. :) And of course, because it just makes sense that you can't start working with steel really quickly.

So please, keep up the good work discussing this. We ARE listening.

If you are going to add in additional metals, how complex do you want the production of steel to be. At the moment all you are using is Iron and carbon, but you also have nickel, chromium, molybdiam and others as trace elements to make such steels as stainless steel. Also you have different levels of carbon infusion in steel as well. Personally I think having High carbon steel. Low Carbon steel and Stainless Steel would be enough.

From wikipedia. -- In metallurgy, stainless steel is defined as an iron-carbon alloy with a minimum of 10.5% chromium content.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on August 11, 2007, 12:05:47 am
stainless steel and similiar (by adding trace elements of other minerals) was developed very late, in 20th century. Everything before wasn't that durable as you would expect for a weapon for instance or was an accident.
Steel is indeed hard to produce. And basically the less carbon in it, the better the steel. Also after a certain point with too much carbon in the structure, you are unable to make steel. What you get is "cast iron".
It is when there is from 2% to 3,6% carbon in the structure. "Cast iron" can in no way be used for sword making.
Steel is when there is below 2,11% of carbon and at the point when you pour the melted alloy to the form, it isn't steel yet. It has worse durabiliti properties than steel, and steel is when you plastically tool it.
It is good to point out that it is currently all messed up in PS, where carbon is from 10% to 20% part in the so called steel, if we look at coal lumps-iron ore ratio. Only we are more interested in weight, rather than the previous. We can't say how much iron there is in PS iron ore and how much coal in the coal lumps, but at the first sight current ration looks wrong.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Under the moon on August 11, 2007, 08:12:53 am
Niko, you just explained why weapons in PS need to be fixed so often.

As for making steel at all with the equipment provided ingame... it simply can not be done.  Even with the right equipment, it would be very hard for a single person to smelt steel, not to mention forming it into anything. Making steel takes temperatures that can not be reached in a furnace such as seen in the game. Copper, yes. Silver, likely. Gold, easily. Yes, I am being nitpicky, but so is steel.

Here are a few good (and simple) reads on the subject of steel, iron, and sword making.

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/culture/scitech/iron_steel.html
http://swordforum.com/swords/historical/makingofmedswds.html

As to why these ores can be found in the stalactite in the first place, the answer is simply that it was not formed by the 'drip' process. Think about it, and the way the world is designed. The cave is  mass of rock pushed down from the surface under great pressures. This is proven by the existence of diamonds and rubies. My postulation is that the entire thing was molten at the moment of creation, and excess molten rock flowed away to form the lower cavern. Now, there is a huge shaft of foreign crystal thrust into the roof of the cavern, which is without a doubt the cause of the stalactite in the first place.

All in all, we are not talking about a natural formation. The entire situation reeks of an insanely catastrophic astral impact.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on August 11, 2007, 12:28:35 pm
Quote from: Under the moon on August 11, 2007, 08:12:53 am
Niko, you just explained why weapons in PS need to be fixed so often.
I can't agree and if i would, there is no way i can say what you assume PS weapons ara really made of.
Really steel? no, i'm sure you know you can't make steel in open furnance, so...
Casted iron? its the next thing to appear. But you can't make weapons of it, Well you can, but i will probably broken in two after few hits and there is nothing you can do to fix it. If you start hammering casted iron, it is going to crumble into pieces.
More carbon? This probably means carbon not really in the structure, but still inside, what makes the product completly unusable for any kind of craft.
Broonze weapons would be better than that i gues.

Maybe PS "steel" weapons are in fact made of iron, which was hardened for increased durability?


And more on topic the first bunch of posts:
I think it is less about skill IF you can produse some material and more about knowledge. And then you need skill for the material to be good enough to be used anywhere.
This means that to make steel you need some pages with instructions about it. Something you can always look into, lear from and put into your book, where you have other instructions for other things too.
But if your skill is say 1, even with knowledge, you are going to produce something of very bad quality, noone most likely buy from you. Lets say it was steel and assume at level 10 it starts being of decent enough quality, progressing to 20, the skill/quality function is close to linear, but after 20, the function stops being that linear.
But even if you you are going to produce crap, you are allowed to, and you will gain practice.

Of course there are toughter and simpler meterials to make. Melted forms, not alloys being the simplest most likely. How tought it is for each, should have nothing to do with historical progress, but in fact how tought it is to do each. Maybe it will match with historical order, but when it won't, the historical order goes away.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Natrina on August 11, 2007, 12:44:21 pm
 I'm with rtrentc. Again, I return to my argument that most of the problem lies in the fact that the only industry we have so far is that of war. No one is going to make brass swords, or even iron swords, because who would buy it? Some guy who can buy a steel sword from a NPC for a price you'd die of great misery to compete with? Yeah.

 So, what this would potentially create is a state of misery to the apprentices. You can't make things of good quality, you can't use good materials and I'm not sure how you're going to pay the miners or sell your product in a market flooded with loot (Nikodemus was totally right on that) and with NPC competition. Only reply to this: apprentice becomes a fighter to get PPs and money and a miner to run away from raw material expenses. RP immersion, -50 points.

 Am I going to repeat myself? Yes, I am. I do believe having us pass through an order of materials just to use them is wrong. When our blacksmiths become blacksmiths (as in: can do things other than war items) other materials will be used (actually, not. Blacksmiths are iron and steel smiths, but the point is that other materials will be used, even if, by name, by other *smiths). The material order is fine as it is.

 Nikodemus. Ignoring the fact that the density of coal and iron are quite probably different, it seems the idea of the devs was to make steel making respect it on weight terms, indeed. 9-1 gives 1,81% of coal (though the 8-2, a scheme also usable as far as I know, has 3,63% of coal). *shrugs*

P.S.: *reads Nikodemus post and nods*.
Title: Re: Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training
Post by: Nikodemus on August 11, 2007, 02:01:00 pm
Quote from: Natrina on August 11, 2007, 12:44:21 pm
Nikodemus. Ignoring the fact that the density of coal and iron are quite probably different, it seems the idea of the devs was to make steel making respect it on weight terms, indeed. 9-1 gives 1,81% of coal (though the 8-2, a scheme also usable as far as I know, has 3,63% of coal). *shrugs*
Yes, i was assuming the same thing, that it may indeed make a lot of sense this way, i didn't take the efford to calculate, only estimate.
Well, i just did and i see your calculations are right whe iron wears 6 and coal 1, but doesn't iron ore weight 3 ? This increases the percentage values twice and makes 8-2 complete unusable crap ;P and 9-1 casted iron, which can never be steel and as i wrote broonze would be better material for a weapon than that. Simple iron, probbly hardened if it is ever possible, even better i gues.
Maybe if i really remember right that iron ore wears 3 they make it wear 6 in future and make price for it at NPCs twice as high. That would make sense i suppose. And then make the 8-2 ratio for other purposes than weapon making, because it is not material for weapons. You can make cannons out of it though ;D hehe, of course no cannons in PS ;)
EDIT: or cogs! gears! Winch machinery needs some for sure (athough their shape is all messed up ;P, about that maybe later)
And Iron Ore weights really 6 ;P

And i'm concerned with apprentices into smithing in PS too. I believe we will need other craftable items in future, usable in different activities, so that the apprentice can work on easy materials, to learn his craft. But i need to note that one can learn the craft of eg steel making without going through all the simpler materials before. Now the question is how to put it into skill system?
I proposed to make these pages of instructions, so that it will take efford to get them, but decrease the effort before you can make some eg steel at all. Not to repeat myself, but maybe produced steel by such a person would be still usable as garde tools? hmm.