PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Velh Krome on August 06, 2007, 02:18:27 am
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When I started roleplaying a few months ago, I (or better my char) was told about people got killed and that. I was pretty excited about it, the most about the thought of having to delete my char in the most worse case! As frightening it may have been, it was exciting same amount, even more!
Ok, time has passed, events are played and people died.
A while ago I participated Hathers rp, in which he died (or had to die). He then remained in the Death's Realm for several days, until other players brought up an rp to take him out of it.
Well, it was sort of an effort, to free him of it, and I liked it! People die, enter the endless maze of DR and only can escape with certain efforts.
Unfortunately this was the only time I noticed death had some impact. I dont have to mention that people, after having died, just rush DR and appear crossing the plaza 2mins later. Its common, its usual and its pretty boring.
Recently I witnessed a roleplay, in which one died. He returned from DR right away, waited next to us and was like: "..arf.. I really hate that!", when he 'revived'.
Other rps in which people died were the common routine.
Meanwhile I am used to it - its boring.
I have the Decree in front of me: "..permanent death.." is mentioned there. This now relativates the "temporary" DR-death once again. It proves that people dying the way of blades, have the undoubtful chance to evade death anyways.
So will I just have to haste the DR, reappear and say something like "Gosh, I had some.. bad nightmare.."? (according to the Third Truth; Dermorian)
What if one gets burned to ashes - where does his 'revived' body come from? Newly created in that case of resurrection?
Whats the point in killing or not killing people rp-wisely at all? As the victims may suffer more or less in "hell" yet wont have to remain there (according to most rp'ed ways), reputation?
Additionally, what kinda saddened me, is the fact that one can even take a quest down there. Ok, with some effort I ponder its for the Darkies among the chars. But what about Trasoks Ancient Sword? He advices one to visit DR, like its a weekend's vacation?
Weekend's vacation. Reading the books down there all over again, I really wonder whats the point at all. Why should my char try to avoid critical situations? In the worst case he gets killed, hence has to feel some pain. Yet according to those books he will have some torment granted (others dont give a hey) in DR, before leaving: with all his belongings.
I posted this because with lack of giving death importance rp-wisely, as I noticed, a big bunch of excitement was gone away consequently - Is there anybody at all, who would deal a situation, his char being aware, maybe even scared, of he could get killed which would mean some harm for his char? Or is any char played "fearless and heroic", because the player knows of death is nothing more then running around for 2mins?
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You could always consume a pitcher of mercury or some other poisonous substance which would cause you to die all over again once you return from the DR. The only fix for that would be some kind of magical leeching of the poison from your body, which does not apparently exist in the realm. It would have to be administered by someone else. It is unclear however if it would cause continuous dying within the DR so it may be that that other person might have to have knowledge of some kind of stasis or time dilation magic in order to prevent your body from disappearing before the cure could work....hard to say for sure.
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Most of my characters will avoid dying at any cost, only one or two are too stubborn or too much of a fighter to still face almost certain death with a grin on their face. When they do die, I make a point not to get them back out of the Death Realm for at least three days, preferably a week or more. They'll also 'suffer' some changes in personality and maybe even skills because of their experiences down there.
If I kill someone or see someone die and five minutes later they're back infront of me, I ignore them.
One thing on this topic that really irks me is the people who play 'Ghosts' and wander around with their characters after having died but supposedly are invisible or just a foggy object, ...
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I usually take the DR slowly if it's an RPed death instead of sprinting through it...that at least helps some. Also, keep in mind that the DR will be expanded. BTW, considering that some odd souls actually call the DR home, having quests + training down there may not be too bad after all :)
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Zan,
the way you did so far is quite the same i used to handle it.
Proposing I would have to leave my char roaming the dr for 1 week rl-time could be something worthy to avoid.
Until now it was good enough to uphold that mentioned feeling of excitement.
Yet as I couldnt find anything clarifying in the dr's lib, i wonder if one cant just really (icly) rush dr and appear a few minutes later back, crossing the plaza. Ambiguity of the setting may be the reason.
Ok, now for a bit more provocation:
Imagine a criminal gets imprisoned. At his stead I would just kill myself (the most if assumed I already died once for I even know about the dr). As its written, those portals wont even rematerialize me always the same spot. I may spawn far off Hydlaa, in safety. Nice!
What about people got dismembered, burned or cauterised, squashed etc.? Its stated that the 'same' body gets transmitted into dr, with all his belongings, and that same body will be transported back after trespassing a portal.
How is that explainable?
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Also, keep in mind that the DR will be expanded. BTW, considering that some odd souls actually call the DR home, having quests + training down there may not be too bad after all :)
She's right. In fact the DR has already been expanded a little. You think it's bad now. It's at least five times bigger now than it was when I started playing.(Which made for an aggravating switch for me.) Beside From what I always gathered, the DR would eventually be as big as any place in the living world. (Thus taking away any shortcut benefit.) As some like Londris would choose to stay. They would eventually make it so you could buy houses in the DR (I forget where I read that though). The Size of Yliakum is nowhere near as big as it will be, there is no reason to believe that the DR is full sized either. We just have to wait until the rest is implemented. :whistling:
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"The Death Realm is a huge realm, supposedly even larger than Yliakum. Getting out of there is nigh impossible and even if one succeeded in it once, there is no assurance that you'll succeed again. It's always different."
This is what I understand the DR will be like in the future, so I pretend it already is this way when I die. So if you ask me, running through it in a few minutes isn't IC at all. We as players are certain that we can get out but my characters are not. In fact they're quicker convinced that they'll spend the rest of their lives down there.
The problem with a criminal being imprisoned is a valid one, it's a choice between a lifetime in a small room or a lifetime in a dark, torturous realm.
I do assume that our bodies are fixed when they are transferred to the Death Realm ... though then you wonder why some deaths can cause permanent death and others can't?
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Beside From what I always gathered, the DR would eventually be as big as any place in the living world.
Possibly even bigger. If you read those books in DR you start to realize how horribly massive and complex it is. It has multiple planes in which one could appear in firstly. When you die you don't nessicarrily go to the dark citedal. You can appear in any of the other planes within the realm of DR. Secondly each plane will most likely (at completion) not exactly be a maze but a like huge areas, each different, and filled with challenges whether monsters, traps, etc. Nextly right now we have just one portal. When complete there will be many each on different planes and each one changing its place. You may die today and find the portal right away but next time it will be in a completely different place and you may appear on a completely different plane. Also from what I read I don't believe the portals will lead to the same place each time you die (spawn points). It sounds as if the portals each lead to different realms and planes, some within DR and some in the living world. In the end do you think it will be possible to die and just run out of DR? No of course not. When they say DR is suffering and you start to look at those small things and fit them together, from the diffrent planes, to the different moving portals, to the monsters you may have to face, you realize that DR is a "maze" but not one where the exit can be memorized. From the sounds of it one could die and spend RL days in DR, having to live and train there, before ever finding the correct exit. And even if you do find an exit it might take a while before you ever make it back home. Looking at it this way you have to rp it this way and realize that sometimes you have to spend a week to get out, sometimes a month, sometimes you'll never be able to escape.
Also remember that not all people go to DR. It is my belief (after reading the books) that one of the planes in DR is seperate from the rest. This plane is where those who suffer "the true death" appear. When you die your body stays and your soul goes. However if you are "strong enough" to keep going your body disappears and rejoins your soul in DR. Those who are too weak stay as a soul in this different plane while their body rots away in Ylikuam. If the body is destroyed I'd assume its impossible for the spirit to ever rejoin it and walk the halls of DR to find a way back to life.
Of course most of this is just an assumption :P
I do assume that our bodies are fixed when they are transferred to the Death Realm ... though then you wonder why some deaths can cause permanent death and others can't?
Some deaths continue to kill you (like the one with the poison). Other deaths destroy your body so your spirit can't return to it (like being sent to the crystal).
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Hello!
Well, usually I prefer perma-death in roleplaying. There might be ways to revive a character but they are difficult at least. In a pen&paper roleplaying game to die or not to die is in the hand of the player and the GM.
But perma-death in a MMORPG will never work. It is because the decision is taken from the hand of the player. There is no GM. There is only a machine with its technical limitations, e.g. lag. There are other players, who think, it is fun to slay a character. There are other circumstances which are not in the hand of the player which will lead to death.
With this being stated DR seems to be quite a good solution compared to the spawning points in other games. But make it as big as you want, there will be a time where the character returns to the world of the living. So the size won't solve the fundamental problem. We have to come to terms with the DR and the revival of characters. But this doesn't mean that we should neglect death. From a character point of view nobody knows for sure if you will end up in the DR or being dead forever.
My character doesn't like the DR and tries to avoid dying the best she can. If she dies she will try to pass the DR as fast as she can being glad to have another chance to "live". She is quite unsure if this will be the case every time she dies, so better not try your luck.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Yes, in pen and paper RPG, death is death of the character. Granted I allow reincarnation/resurrection opportunities on occassion (say a main character dies that is central to the original plot).
In PS, I don't consider DR death to be "character death". It simply isn't. This explains why mobs reappear.
If you want to RP that your character actually died, that's fine too. But I think it just makes more sense not to consider it true death in it's present form.
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If I kill someone or see someone die and five minutes later they're back infront of me, I ignore them.
Yup, that sums it up for me
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It would be nice to see, in future iterations of DR, to require a random quest of, say, a dozen different quests, that must be performed before leaving. I suggest a boatman or gatekeeper, for example, as the one to ask such quests.
This would accomplish two things:
One, the character would be taken out of action for quite some time. (Eliminating /die for convenience.)
Two, players would have to "earn" their way out, which should be no easy task. (Making death something to avoid, if, at all, possible.)
(My two cents)
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Here's an idea I had after reading this. Later in development, assuming the DR is supposed to be different each and every time, why not try implementing some form of instancing? Have some randomizations with certain limits imposed to keep the overall structure of the DR, but have a different experience each time you end up there? I'm not sure how this would work exactly since I'm assuming more than one player/character ends up in the same "version" considering training/quests/housing and such. Maybe instancing isn't quite right for the concept, but something else along those lines maybe?
Maybe certain areas within the DR could be instanced and randomized, like moving between the planes, or entering the portal and having to go through a maze or a trial, and if you fail/die/get lost/whatever, you end up back where you entered? I dunno, just food for thought.
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Hello!
It would be nice to see, in future iterations of DR, to require a random quest of, say, a dozen different quests, that must be performed before leaving. I suggest a boatman or gatekeeper, for example, as the one to ask such quests.
As I have already written this won't solve the problem it will just add more annoyence. Please keep in mind that it is possible to die due to technical problems at the moment. In addition to crossing the DR you have to solve a quest? Sorry, this doesn't sound fair to me.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Please keep in mind that it is possible to die due to technical problems at the moment. In addition to crossing the DR you have to solve a quest? Sorry, this doesn't sound fair to me.
In the final version, technical problems would be scarce, at best.
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I agree, bugs are there to be fixed .. they shouldn't influence the creation of the final version of the game at all.
Why is solving quests to exit the Death Realm unfair?
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I agree, bugs are there to be fixed .. they shouldn't influence the creation of the final version of the game at all.
Why is solving quests to exit the Death Realm unfair?
Truthfully itsw not unfair but it shouldn't work that way. The fact is with all the changing portals would it really be that easy to find someone who knows an exact way out of DR? Solving a quest to get out should be a privillage, something that a few people can find. If everyone could just solve the quest to get out then it would really take away from the suffering and confusion DR has. I don't find solving a quest the right answer for getting out. Solving quests that better explain the portals and give you hidden information about DR might be useful (like some of the planes you could acess through the different portals), but there shouldn't just be some quest you do everytime to get out. It really ruins the experience and in the end it will still just be "that place you run through everytime you die."
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The DR will never be as complex as most of the roleplayers figure it should be just because of one simple reason: the day it takes more than five minutes for an experienced player to step out of the DR we can start frogetting about having any new players joining the game. Some of them feel forced to create a new character now already because the exit of DR seems an impossible goal to achieve as it is now, "if there is one exit". Therefore, there will always be part of RPing in the fact of an (considered) IC death. Modifying the Death Realm won't change a thing in that respect: five minutes aren't, in my opiinon, enough to roleplay a death. Any of my characters would thankfully commit suicide to avoid certain much more disgusting situations than it is a five minutes trip.
This thread was about the IC consequences of a character's death, and treating the "physical" DR as one is, considering the way I do roleplay my characters, just wrong, no matter how long the travel may be.
So back to the topic:
I basically agree with most of the thoughts Zan, Duraza and Kaityra threw here. That is how I have been believing it should be, and I've roleplayed my character in consequence. But I have popped into many other roleplayers who have come back after a few minutes of their so called "death" and I had no other option than swallowing it up, since the setting is in my eyes still unclear about that certain topic.
I do not care what role a player makes up in their head consistency with settings is the beginning of good roleplaying in PS.
Right, most of us are trying to stick to the setting no doubt. But aren't there certain topics that are pretty much unclear? How comes some of the characters can resurrect in a few minutes while others need a week? Some of those who believe a few minutes are enough I consider pretty decent roleplayers, it's not a matter of 'quality' but just of agreement. Myself, I will keep considering the Death Realm as the place not to be, and try to avoid death in any way, but I would like to see someday most of the players do have the same idea, be it by reading the books in the libraries or just by a settings developer to pop up in one of these topics and shoot a few sentences that would clear up and do for a unite manner of roleplaying certain matters.
( duraza replied while I was as well, so let me quote him: )
It really ruins the experience and in the end it will still just be "that place you run through everytime you die."
Totally agree. The one and last objective of every being's life is the own instinct of survival, removing death as a threat basically removes such instinct, thus turning most of the feelings of any character meaningless. Not to tell about how much of a chaotic world would we have if practically nobody was afraid of getting slain.
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Please keep in mind that it is possible to die due to technical problems at the moment. In addition to crossing the DR you have to solve a quest? Sorry, this doesn't sound fair to me.
In the final version, technical problems would be scarce, at best.
You must be new here...
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My opinion:
It should not be so damn easy to die. It seems to me that far too many new players go in this order. "How do I play?" "How do I get money?" "Where do I find a sword?" "Where do I kill things?" "How do I get out of this dark place?" in all of ten minutes to an hour. To solve this, if a player's health gets to 0%, or close to it, make them "mostly dead" with 0% mana inflicted. Start draining stamina, so they have a few minutes to crawl away and get someone to heal them. Once stamina is 0%, then you are "all dead", and there is only one thing for you to do...
Once 'all dead', your body and spirit are brought back to life in the Death Realm. However, I do not think all your stuff should go with you. Instead, your character would be 'cleansed' of all worldly items, and the items would either be stockpiled in one spot, or scattered around the realm in preselected repositories. Then, the more items you had upon death, the more looking around you have to do to get your items back. Note that no one could get your items but you. In this way, new people with few things would have an easier time getting out, while more experienced players would have to spend a bit of time looking for their Uber Sword of Doom and Platinum Armor of Ultraglow (TM). This would stop the five minute 'revenge' duels that happen all the time, as you would not have a weapon or armor if you ran right back out.
Exiting the Deathrealm would sacrifice any item you did not pick up. Quest items would stay with you when you where reborn in the DR, so they could not be lost.
Life shrines would be placed in each map, perhaps even more than one per map. Upon exiting the portal, you would find yourself in the closest shrine to the point of your death, getting rid of the ‘shortcut’ option.
Some sort of status effect should also be inflicted on a character exiting the DR. Not sure what, though. Weakness, sickness, mana drain, fear (can not fight), slow, aversion to light, or something more creative like Grime (your character looks and smells bad). Or, perhaps something random from a list. Death is like a box of chocolates…
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Truthfully itsw not unfair but it shouldn't work that way. The fact is with all the changing portals would it really be that easy to find someone who knows an exact way out of DR? Solving a quest to get out should be a privillage, something that a few people can find. If everyone could just solve the quest to get out then it would really take away from the suffering and confusion DR has. I don't find solving a quest the right answer for getting out. Solving quests that better explain the portals and give you hidden information about DR might be useful (like some of the planes you could acess through the different portals), but there shouldn't just be some quest you do everytime to get out. It really ruins the experience and in the end it will still just be "that place you run through everytime you die."
That is actually what I had in mind with quests to exit the Death Realm, they should be a part of the exit process. Of course one simple quest shouldn't give you an instant-exit. I was more thinking, first you have to locate a portal and appease the guardian (through a quest) before you can pass through it ... and hope you picked the right one. By the way, just like the portals appear in random locations some day, the quest givers can as well. The quests shouldn't be the same every time either of course. (also keep in mind that by the time this is implemented I'm counting on the questing system to be far less annoying as it can be now.)
I don't think that will make things easier but it will give a bit of variation in gameplay.
UtM, I don't find it that easy to die in this game. (Bugs not included) Creatures and criminal scum can be avoided quickly if you're about to lose the fight. (something needs to be done about them following you throughout the map though)They're slow and brainless. Only one or two NPC's I actually find lethal (aka one or two hit kills) for newer characters and those are usually hidden away (with the exception of one of the new cutthroats that roams around BDRoad 1). In fact the only easy way of dying would be engaging in duels.
I do like some of your suggestions though.
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personally i think we can not make it hard to get out of death realm without running off the new joiners.
why don't we just have priests of tallad and laanx that can preform resurrections, or a simple quest [like a riddle] with penalties if you get it wrong [like loss of progression points], to get out?
as a new player i would be more willing to wait an hour on a priest to go to a temple and resurrect me then to try to find an obscure portal.
i like UTM's idea of scattering items in DR.
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New players could get a few 'saves' that won't let them end up in the Death Realm the first couple times they die. Personally though I'd say if they are scared off by the eventual Death Realm ... it's good riddance. People that really want to roleplay and be part of the community won't be scared off that easily.
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My opinion on how death should be handled in the final game (OOC and only concerning game mechanics!):
1) Rename the death realm to something like abyss or realm of lost souls, where people go while having a near death experience, to be exact, only their spirits go there. Let the bodies of those who entered the abyss remain where they got wounded, laying in coma until a healer comes by. (I can already see healers forming guilds only for the purpose of being healers and probably making a business out of it. :woot: )
Only when the body got cured, the portal that leads the spirit back to the body should open. This would also increase the value of mages.
2) Like UTM said, after exiting the abyss, people should have an after effect, such as decreased stats for a certain amount of time. Or depending on how long someone was in coma, decreased skills aswell, with the need to train them again.
3) Getting /unstick to work in all situations, with random spawn points within a radius of 100 feet around the character. /die needs to vanish from the game.
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At the current state of development, entering DR is often neccessary due to bugs like getting stuck. But once /unstick works all the time, there would be no more OOC reasons to enter the DR. Nevertheless, something like the library should stay there, so you have something to do while waiting for your body to be cured. Even reference persons for quests could stay there, since entering the abyss has nothing to do with 'death', it's only a near death experience, that you could also achieve by using a potion. (Regards from Romeo&Juliet :D) And if your character would somewhat suffer from such an experience, by losing experience or having an after effect, people wouldn't want go there that much anymore either, particularly as it is not providing you with a short cut possibility anymore, since you 'revive' where you 'died' :)
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I don't see why people are so worried about being stuck in this big death realm being planned. I'm sure it will be just as interesting to while away the days in as the living realm, more so if your on a constant quest for the exit. Something of a sense of purpose other than trying to dig yourself into the stone labyrinths in search of ore so people can make weapons to kill the monsters you release as you go. :P
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Hello!
I don't see why people are so worried about being stuck in this big death realm being planned.
Well, quite simple. Some of us are part of a greater community where we enjoy the roleplay with its members far more than playing alone.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Well there will be plenty of other dead people wandering around to RP with and if IC you cared about your friends that much you shouldn't go getting yourself killed :P.
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Can't wait for the bigger death realm. It will be cool. And the grousing on the forums will be amusing... *winks*
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As it turned a bit offtopic, I would like to get back to the initial purpose, yet not without mentioning that there are indeed some interesting suggestions to improve it in the future "mechanically". UtMs idea of one would have to gather his items first, which could compensate the disadvantage for newbies, for example sounds nice!
At the moment though, with the technical circumstances as they currently are, I would like to know if there is any chance for finding some agreement on how to handle ic-deaths.
Some of those who believe a few minutes are enough I consider pretty decent roleplayers, it's not a matter of 'quality' but just of agreement.
To rp ones death and the dead one appears back living a handful of minutes later, makes it at least for me, frankly, completely uninteresting and not even worth the time. Additionally, theres just no excitement in situations of trouble, except for maybe the battle of words itsself.
I think, as long as game-mechanics wont force us to experience our chars death as something likely to avoid at some certain cost, some players' agreement is the only option at the moment. Unless no one else cares, of course.
How about 3 days of the dead char not being around amongst the living, for reputation's sake?
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It would seem to me that separation anxiety would be a far more prevalent condition than any fear of death so that a friend moving to the fourth rung would be more upsetting that him dying. A corollary of this would seem to indicate that there would be an insularity that made making new friends more difficult. The "little death" which is a trip to the DR and back might be seen as no big deal depending on the dying persons will to continue living.
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I must say that the new books have disappointed me. They seem to cement the status quo of the game mechanics instead of the original intent of the DR. Take for example the comment about people being easily able to exit the DR anytime, regardless of their faith or lack thereof. Take the example of diaboli "dying in creative ways for the experience". All of that suggests that the DR is a walk in the park, not even the weekend trip these quests suggest.
Granted, the statement that repeatedly dying takes some toll on the body means that one can't do that infinitely often, but it also means that one can do that for quite a while, and for that to be an issue at all, the exiting from the DR must be very easy and fast (as otherwise people wouldn't be able to exit it sufficiently often).
The changing nature of the DR, as described in the book, seems to be another try to explain OOC things IC-ly, like the past and future modifications and enhancements to the DR map, and therefore isn't different from the "plague" in Ojaveda. IMO, these things are OOC and must not be dragged IC.
Also, WRT poisons killing you over and over again, the book says there are _some rare_ poisions that do that. This means that all commonly available poisons are, in fact, one-time only. IOW, permanent death is hard to achieve.
Add to that that the books don't at all read like there's torment, or in fact anything besides lack of light. Given that in the DR one is, according to the books, pretty much immortal, it might even be preferrable to the WOTL. In fact, if there's "life" native to the DR, which can be killed (contrary to people from the WOTL, who can't be killed in the DR), this means that dead people even are privileged over the DR's life, which is questionable all by itself, adding even more incentive to staying dead.
Regarding loss of new players, the problem is that a new player is unlikely to know whether PS is actually worth their time or not. Even if they're an RPer, they might not be convinced, since there are many MMORPGs with an elaborate story which aren't about RP. IOW, if they don't think it's worth the hassle, they might not give it a try. This may or may not be good, but it's something to be kept in mind. Note that I'm all for keeping non-RP-minded people from even downloading the client; I'm just not sure if this has any filtering effect.
All in all the DR has lost much of it's mystery, and it's also lost it's scariness, IC-ly. Up until now, it was possible and justifiable, via the scarce information in the settings, to RP death as something that is final except in very rare circumstances, and therefore a normal character would try to avoid it if at all possible. Now, however, it's not possible to RP death as anything bigger than a prolonged trip, in the worst case making you miss some appointments. That is, unless you 1) ignore the new books (thereby stepping outside the setting) or 2) RP that you don't know them (and of course ignore all the obvious and verifiable proof). In fact, the book can be even used to legitimise the use of /die for a shortcut.
I wonder when the DR inhabitants will put a tax on wares transported through the DR, not to mention noise-restriction laws, or outright banning transit traffic from certain areas during nighttime or somesuch.
The only good thing, RP-wise, is that most people whom I RP with have not shown tendencies to die frequently, therefore I can remain "clueless" IC-ly, and therefore can keep RPing resurrection as something very very rare.
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They seem to cement the status quo of the game mechanics instead of the original intent of the DR.
So what you're saying is, you'd prefer that the books tell you that the DR doesn't work in the way that PCs actually experience it.
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Nothing is carved in stone(hehehe except yliakum) PS is a living world, things change. Just because you went years being able to make up whatever came into your head and spent years with a handful of less than ideal books and some loose information from website does not mean that those books will be the final word on anything.
The best part about settings in PS is that it can evolve with the state of the game. The author of those books both irl and in game is still alive and he or he may well have other things to tell you. This whole thread is fairly pointless as you all know the death realm will not remain as it is.
You can expect changes and explanations made by npcs to sometimes be inaccurate and amended by themselves or other npc authors. You can expect unreliable narrators of differing visions and perceptions of the truth of the Yliakum cosmos. You as rpers can adapt to the changing state of information available in game.
What you cannot do is dictate how things are going to go. What you cannot is believe your vision of ps is shared with all players, or the devteam. What i would hope the players would consider is that they do not know everything, I would like them to not assume that each idea they have is unique or that it has not been discussed internally. Nothing will ever move fast enough. Nothing will ever be free from complaint.
People who take the time to write articulate well thought out critiques should really consider applying. Then you will know more and have more influence in realizing your own ambitions for the game. I can speak for the dev team in one regard, we do read the forums your thoughts do reach us, but honestly, we probably are just as dissatisfied with certain elements of the game as the players are if not moreso.
This thread's arguments have definitely been a subject of debate among devs and no poster in this thread has added even an iota to what the team will eventually do to resolve issues regarding the death realm. As far as being told a book is disappointing or the settings seem to tape together the engine or that OOC issues must not be taken Icly, I completely disagree, and have the privilege of happily overriding that view with each stroke of my keyboard. How many books do you think Londris Kolaim will write? I have some idea but I am under an NDA, I can however hint in this manner: he has an eternity, and you will have to wait and see.
Happy gaming! \\o//
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Well, I certainly can't say I've seen everything in this game, and the DR has a lot I've never explored, but this thread is interesting so I'll toss in my $0.02...
The DR as it is now seems like a good solution to the age old problem in games of how to deal mortal damage when permanent death would discourage most people from playing at all. So a place that you go from death that presents a way back to life is IMO a very good compromise, much better than putting you right back in game after relieving you of money. It does seem like there should be *some* penalty to make death more than a momentary inconvenience, though.
My suggestion would be to impose that penalty not in the DR itself, but upon return to the WOTL*. Sort of like a "hangover" from dying. You return to your world, but weak, maybe HP, END & MANA are decreased to a percentage of your normal and only slowly return to normal over say a couple days. That would
(a) discourage people from using DR as a shortcut between towns,
(B) resolve the issues raised in another thread about fighting and guildwars (fighting never ending and ambushing the DR spawn point). Killed players would simply be unable to return to the fighting right away.
(C) it would be fair to newbies. Being a percentage, newbies would take a lesser hit than more experienced players. It would permit gameplay to continue, mining, questing or crafting could still be done, just at a reduced pace.
*I suppose the penalty could be imposed upon dying, that might give a reason to hang around DR more while waiting to recover...
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They seem to cement the status quo of the game mechanics instead of the original intent of the DR.
So what you're saying is, you'd prefer that the books tell you that the DR doesn't work in the way that PCs actually experience it.
Actually, what I'm trying to say is that I'd prefer the books to read as if the DR already was as it is (was) supposed to be like, regardless of how a player experiences it ATM. This is done in almost all other parts of PS, enabling the RPers to keep RPing something non-trivial. It wouldn't bother the non-RPers, as they don't read the books anyway (or if they do, just ignore them either way).
Obviously it would be best if the implementation would catch up with the intention, but as with almost all other parts of the game, that isn't going to happen in the near future. Nontheless, all content should be based on what the intended content is supposed to be, instead of reflecting what is there now. This really is the same as with the nonimplemented races, or the lack of customisation. There are already NPCs who talk about areas that aren't implemented (and won't be for ages), and that's how things should be everywhere.
Clearly, not close to everything is known how it'll become, and it's not necessary to go out of one's way to foresee where exactly an NPC will end up in the long run. However, these are minor issues, not having any impact on the world, whereas major things like the DR or placement / sizes of cities do.
So, naturally, there shouldn't be quests leading to unimplemented places, but there also should be no quests leading to places that one can't be reasonably expected to reach in the "final" version. IOW, the DR itself may contain quests, but those must be confined to the DR itself, and all quests in the WOTL must also be confined to the WOTL. The (rare) quests that do cross these borders must state how the transition is achieved, to not create the impression that it's an everyday thing.
If the settings adhere to what the implementation is, instead of what the final world is supposed to be, RP will become stale. If, however, the settings stay true to the final vision, then everyone who cares will readily understand that the implementation isn't en par with that vision yet, but be able to work around the differences.
Yes, that will lead to occasional threads by some non-RPers about why the DR is so much easier than the books say. However, this is much preferrable to having all RP limited by nothing but the limits of the implementation.
Please note that this doesn't mean that the concept of the DR could (should?) not be improved or possibly redesigned, as has been proposed occasionally: this is something different entirely. A redesign would, however, aim for improving consistency with the remaining settings, and seek to address the issues that have come up WRT RPing the DR. On the other hand, changing the settings to whatever the implementation provides at any given time maybe creates consistency with the implementation (until that is updated again), but it will become less and less consistent within the settings and within itself (saying "everything is always changing" cannot really be regarded as "consistent"). Also, it will set a bad example of "only RP what is implemented". Even without taking that as far as RPing no lying down, it'll end up confining all RP to a couple of very small maps, invisible walls and lots of holes in the world.
Just because you went years being able to make up whatever came into your head
Several people have done their very best to keep things within the settings and not to be presumptuous. Obviously, this cannot be said about everyone. Please also note that, as has been stated numerous times all over the board, the making up of things hardly was voluntary, and people would certainly have preferred to have some information instead of guesses. Information that is logical and consistent with the settings, not necessarily the implementation, that is.
and spent years with a handful of less than ideal books and some loose information from website does not mean that those books will be the final word on anything.
The best part about settings in PS is that it can evolve with the state of the game. The author of those books both irl and in game is still alive and he or he may well have other things to tell you. This whole thread is fairly pointless as you all know the death realm will not remain as it is.
Is this really a good thing? I think it has more than one problematic aspect, one being that of consistency: in a setting that keeps changing, RP loses it's meaning. It makes the matter of "make up whatever comes to your mind" worse, as everyone can easily claim "you don't know what the settings will be next week, so spaceships are just as valid as anything else!".
Regarding the pointlessness of this thread, it does emphasize the fact that RP (what PS claims to be all about) needs a death that actually is a threat. It also shows that this is not a mere academical issue, but one that actually affects those that try to RP meaningfully in PS, especially since this topic keeps arising, so it clearly is one of the more detrimental shortcomings.
You can expect changes and explanations made by npcs to sometimes be inaccurate and amended by themselves or other npc authors. You can expect unreliable narrators of differing visions and perceptions of the truth of the Yliakum cosmos. You as rpers can adapt to the changing state of information available in game.
We can expect NPCs to be inaccurate. We can also expect that changes will be made, and some things won't be thought out in all detail right from the start. We should, however, be able to assume that major, and I might even say fundamental, concepts have been thought through and considered in detail so they will not require changing. The DR, it's existance and workings are as fundamental as the existance and position of major cities, if not more. Really, this is on the same level as whether the grass is green: it can be readily verified by everyone in Yliakum. I find it unreasonable that even such basic information, things that everyone in Yliakum will know, has to be read up in books in some library. Such things belong on the website, and be precise and clear. The current state is like if IRL children would be expected to look up "sky" in wikipedia in order to find out what color it has. I assume that the reason why recently everything is being put into books and NPCs is that this will allow for chaning one's mind, even WRT settings basics. Even with PS in development and all that, it can be overdone, though.
What you cannot do is dictate how things are going to go. What you cannot is believe your vision of ps is shared with all players, or the devteam.
What one should be able to do is to read the available information and find out what the intent of the devteam is, instead of having to guess at even the most basic things. And most importantly, one should be able to expect that the vision of PS that the devteam has decided on to be made public, so that the players have a chance of sharing it. It would also be exceptionally nice if said vision would be accompanied by reasoning, especially if it touches problematic areas. There are statements on why the engine works as it does, but the settings either has "it's under NDA" or "we don't tell". Personal preference can only justify so much.
What i would hope the players would consider is that they do not know everything,
Most, if not all, of the issues that keep coming up are exactly because the players are told jack. Players have almost nothing to go by, and that creates differences in interpretation. If there is so much more already designed and written up, things which would clear up all of that, then actually releasing that might be something to consider. It would even go a long way if the general aim of the settings people WRT problematic issues like this was published somewhere on the website. Seriously, not telling anything and then complaining how few everyone else knows is a highly questionable attitude.
I would like them to not assume that each idea they have is unique or that it has not been discussed internally. Nothing will ever move fast enough. Nothing will ever be free from complaint.
People who take the time to write articulate well thought out critiques should really consider applying. Then you will know more
However, then one can't use that knowledge to align one's RP with the goals of PS because there's an NDA.
and have more influence in realizing your own ambitions for the game. I can speak for the dev team in one regard, we do read the forums your thoughts do reach us, but honestly, we probably are just as dissatisfied with certain elements of the game as the players are if not moreso.
The engine, sure. The client, definitely, but the settings? FAICT, the settings is free to go ahead without even looking at what the engine can do now. In fact, the settings is the only part of PS that can be done completely without all others, so why does it glue itself to the engine more than any other part? I am obviously missing a major chunk here.
This thread's arguments have definitely been a subject of debate among devs and no poster in this thread has added even an iota to what the team will eventually do to resolve issues regarding the death realm.
So I take it "it is not yet the time for a proper solution to be revealed"? Sorry, but I think I'll just stick with "death is mostly permanent". I can live with "we don't have reached a consensus yet", and even with "we don't have any better idea ATM", but certainly not with "We know it all but we don't tell you, na-ha-ha!". IOW, I'm not willing to put up with preliminary settings that badly substitute an already designed but for literally untold reasons unreleased proper solution.
As far as being told a book is disappointing (...) I disagree
Naturally that is a question of expectations. I was expecting more information about the DR, and especially details on what exactly the circumstances are under which someone can get back to life, without making it a commodity. The book has some nice ideas in it, but they pale compared to it's failing to address the central problem in a way to help RP (instead of PL).
or the settings seem to tape together the engine or that OOC issues must not be taken Icly, I completely disagree, and have the privilege of happily overriding that view with each stroke of my keyboard.
Which you obviously enjoy exercising. Surely you have some insightful arguments to support your opinion? Or is it the same as with someone maxing one's char, then proclaiming that same char Octarch and stick with a story that isn't even consistent with any possible PS timeline no matter what, while at the same time putting "humility" as major requirement when it comes to others?
It is most interesting to see how much you have raised yourself above "the players" in your own views since you were a player, one with a highly questionable character.
Is this a warning that we are going to see books detailing invisible walls, moving cities and wipes soon?
How many books do you think Londris Kolaim will write? I have some idea but I am under an NDA, I can however hint in this manner: he has an eternity, and you will have to wait and see.
I guess that these books will be consistent with his others, as you seem to have a thing for god-like "characters".
Happy gaming!
Ah, the irony...
@ CrazyYlian: even though this isn't really about the implementation, but about the way to RP it, your idea (even though similar things have been mentioned in the past) would certainly make for a feasible solution to temporarily remove the issues you mentioned, and which could also be kept in the long run, since death can always be expected to take some time to recover from, even with resurrections of any sort.
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Just a note here about those books and their reliability. In them the author himself claims to be the source of much of the mis-information about the death realm so any further claims ought to be taken with a grain of salt. It may be that there is a malicious entity that pervades the DR and selectively reveals what it wants people to think. It might even be that it is counting deaths for all characters and when the time is right (implementation catches up to setting) all those characters with x number of deaths are permanently dead those <x and >0 suffer horrendous effects varied according to how close to x and those who have never died live on untouched. It might be that day never comes, who knows!
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/me looks at Seytra's post.
The 'Sheeples' died the second I read that book, actually, though the characters live on. I could not justify their being anymore.
/me shugs sadly.
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Seytra, your ad hominems do nothing to aid your arguments. :love:
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It should be noted that if you wish to roleplay true death, just delete your account whenever you die. We won't mind, and in fact will applaud your roleplaying skills. :)
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A book is just a book, written by one person. Some may be true experiences but most, if not all, books should be taken with a grain of salt at least. Authors always tend to make reality come over different than it is.
My characters do not believe most books to be the absolute truth, just an interesting view into the author's head.
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Seytra, reading your post kind of stuns me - I agree in each and every point you mentioned, and am happy you spoke my mind much more skillfully and eloquently than I would have been able to. As much as Xillix's post.. well, I was surprised.
As this thread is "pointless", grant me some last word on it:
As a community as this here is meant to be, correct me if I am wrong, I thought we could find some players' consense in how to handle ic-deaths, to compensate what still is undefined rp-wise. People talking to each other for finding an agreement in holes, that devs had left unfilled so far, due to understandable reasons.
As a roleplaying game, as this is meant to be, I thought players play together, not against one another. Hence I assumed theres no "wrong" in making suggestions. At no time I was intented to dictate anything, nor to offend devs omnipotence or override it. I asked people how they see it, and made a suggestion free to discuss.
What saddens me most though is, to see a thread growing that quick, which I take as a common interest in it and in fact a lack of understanding how to handle this certain topic, yet Xillix just says "pointless" without giving any explanation at all.
And Jeraphon, I am not roleplaying to please you devs, but to play and have fun with people sharing same interests.
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@ Vleh did you read what Seytra said? Direct attacks on Xillix and his char before has nothing to do with settings of PS and lead nowhere. It's same as I directly now attack your RP as it used to suck(yeah) you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char... :devil:
so remember PEOPLE DO CHANGE AND SETTINGS DOES CHANGE but attacking each other leads nowhere. Useful critique will be accepted, flames will get ignored. Yes from my point of view settings has bugs, many bugs, quests have many bugs as well as whole PS. Devs do the job for us not for their selfs, remember it. If you have something to say say it but don't attack directly.
@Seytra trough reading this thread I got to feeling that you did know Xillix in past as well as he did know you, but community isn't interested in your personal troubles inbetween of you two and trying to pull it into critique on settings isn't good idea.
@Xillix settings needs lots of work and shouldn't forget that you are doing it for players to enjoy not to make them angry.
I think that good rper will always find his way to rp and people attacking PLers because they are pling realy do target wrong part of PS, problem isn't in PLing or RPing, it's in people... (think about it please)
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you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char
You come to this conclusion after you poked twice before attacking in pvp? Interesting.
I admit, agreeing in "each and every point" with Seytra included that char-sentence, which is inasmuch a fault of mine as I dont know any of his former chars. For that point I apologize.
As you mention PLers now I doubt you have read this thread in its full content. The topic is something completely different. My original intention, I just repeat once more, was to know how other players handle ic-deaths, while remaining conform to the setting, and maybe finding a consense or an agreement in the end, as I presumed this to be a community with players playing together and not battling each other oocly as well. Background was that dead chars come back after 5mins running the DR, which makes roleplaying ones death, in my eyes, useless and a waste of time.
Disappointing is, that this approach is meant to be "pointless".
I wonder now what has "Plers vs RPers" to do with that, but I better dont ask.
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@ Velh I came to that from other players experience. Death and RP and PL has same actor hear > Death Realm, what made me feel to pull it here was Seytra's post.
Don't take it as attack I'm just pointing out that with personal attack we won't get anywhere, but if you with so... *points on some bricks* take one and throw
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*takes one of the bricks*
You haven't understood anything yet.
@ Vleh did you read what Seytra said? Direct attacks on Xillix and his char before has nothing to do with settings of PS and lead nowhere.
Did you read 95% of what Seytra said yourself? You have certainly failed to spot the positive part of this last, and the previous post.
I doubt nobody will come to post here and support flaming, be it against a dev or against a regular poster.
You couldn't know, and probably because of that, you shouldn't have been the one to step by to throw (yes) a brick.
It's same as I directly now attack your RP as it used to suck(yeah) you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char...
You actually don't have a clue about anybody's RP, all I've seen you doing is taking camped NPCs and killing other players, either in DR or in the PvP room.
Useful critique will be accepted, flames will get ignored.
Whenever you want to have the privilege of telling others what to post: apply for dev or mod.
If you have something to say say it but don't attack directly.
Let me answer the quote with a quote of yourself: It's same as I directly now attack your RP as it used to suck(yeah) you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char...
Your words are meaningless.
problem isn't in PLing or RPing, it's in people... (think about it please)
Ever thought about it yourself? You should do.
*drops the brick softly on the grass*
It should be noted that if you wish to roleplay true death, just delete your account whenever you die. We won't mind, and in fact will applaud your roleplaying skills.
Now this was pretty much what I would NOT expect from somebody who makes a game for fun towards the people who plays/tests it for fun.
As many times other devs have stated, I would suppose you are busy people. Considering you took the time to come here and post this line (yes, such brainstorming had to require some time), one would think you'd use it to tell players something useful. Thanks, that was huge help.
And however, a death would the most mean deleting one character, not four. :)
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Relax, guys. This thread has become too heated to continue as is. Take your posts down several notches in aggression and talk about the subject instead of each other. The next posts that ignore my warning will be deleted.
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;D read few posts up and think
see how easy is it to get in flame of style > MY RP IS BETTER THAN YOURS YO NOOB :o
now think again > Settings devs are creating story which may not fit to everyone even they try hard and than it ends with these flames about how it should/shouldn't. they will never be able to make everyone happy. But if you don't attack their rp but say "I don't like this, couldn't it be this way..." would be much better than what I just tried to point out :love: ya
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I dont have interests in starting wars. Let me try to bring the topic back.
Socia, if your char dies rp-driven, how you handle it?
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Socia died...
Eliere died too.
What happends? she spends some time in DR (in old times it used to be min few days or weeks) blindly searching for way out and than comes back to life, you can speed it up if there is Dark way mage upstairs able to resurect (@Mardek resurecting Socia as dark way magician giving quests to Miaua and Hassadria to collect basic items required for resurection spell..) and than it gets resurected, it might or might not remember time of death or time in DR... it might flow out in dream...
Socia died permanently as one of good warriors she died on old age and bad health, you know all those cold nights fights in rain or snow, hours in severs heavy wounds ended up with death (unspecified *maybe* ) during sleep on sofa. She still is somewhere in DR or her soul finaly left Yliakum.. noone knows.
Think about it :sweatdrop:
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I'll just pass on the spoon tossing, and answer the "How do you handle IC 'normal' death (can come back to life), and permanent death (your character can not come back)?"
Normal death... if it can be called that, I play exactly as you see it in the game. I'll explain a bit later in this post.
My character Grunn plays by these rules, and has died many times, including being killed by an Octarch's guard once. He just rolls his shoulders and shugs it off. The death, that is, not the killing, as a reckoning is coming for that guard.
Permanent death. Otherwise known to me as the way of the Sheeples. If my character dies, they do not come back to life in the DR. They just vanish. And yes, I do this with a character delete. Applaud me Jeraphon, applaud me. I base these actions on this part of the Settings:
As you can see, it's difficult for a farm worker to collect enough money for good equipment like swords, armor, etc. to venture into the Stone Labyrinths. Nevertheless, some try to save every Tria they can to pass on to their sons so that the son may search for a better life, which often sends them into trouble. This "killing-by-kindness" is one of the reasons that city is never overpopulated.
Which actually completely conflicts with the new books and stories being told. But that is besides the point now.
Truth be told, the explanation for the DR and death has changed several times in the three-ish years that I have been here. Originally, I do not know what the plan was. When I first arrived, it was written straight out that your body DOES NOT go to the DR, only your spirit did. Your body remained behind, protected by an impenetrable shield until your spirit escaped the DR to rejoin it. It was also clearly stated that the chances of a spirit returning were quit rare. As such, the Dr was considered a place of great mystery that few knew about. I found this to be a hack-job of a story and reason, to tell the truth, and did not understand how Talad ever thought he could pull it off in the game. Likely the reason why it was changed once the DR was actually created. Which brings us to the second incarnation I witnessed.
In this version, the body did, in fact vanish. But, there was still great confusion among the players whether the body appeared in the DR, or it was just your spirit, and your body waited -somewhere- for you to exit the DR portal and rejoin it. All documentation on the previous idea for the DR vanished at this point, hence the confusion between new and old players. I actually liked the idea of your spirit being separated from your body, and your lost soul had to try to find it. Failure (by the choice of the player) meant permanent death. I also envisioned that your now dead corpse would appear somewhere in the living world, perhaps at the point you died, and would be disposed of. A very roleplayable situation, and good story to boot. It was still told that very few people returned from the DR to tell about it, and it was still a place of great fear.
This is the version I, and many other players at the time RPed by. Death was not something to be taken trivially. Several of my characters did die, and have been deleted.
Then came the next incarnation. Naturally enough, players started to believe that when your character died, they went to the DR, body, spirit, items and all. Then, they just had to take a jaunt over to the portal to become alive again. It was also said that death was not a big issue, and most people had the ability to come back to life. This also seemed to be the accepted 'new' way of it in the circle of Devs. It was told that people had just recently started coming back to life, so death was still feared. It was also said characters should come back feeling that they had yet some unknown purpose to fulfill. I can say I did not like this turn of events at all, teleporting all items with the body. It just seemed to be rationalizing the current mechanics of the game without a strong story to back it up. The one saving grace was the ‘purpose’ your character was meant to feel.
Finally, what we have been told now. Something, or someone is protecting the citizens of this world, either for a reason, or though pity. You die, you wander a bit, you come back. The DR is a world just as real as the 'live' world, and you come back to life -there-, not upon re-entering the live world through a portal. The portal is just a door back, not a rebirth. Perhaps it could be said you never die at all, but are instantly teleported into a newly recreated body in the DR… With your newly recreated items as well? Or does some hidden intelligence move your items though the planes of existence to place them with you, and dress your new body up like it was a doll? Something just does not add up here.
We are also now told that coming back to life was always common, always known about, and even -played- with in olden days (and still is now), conflicting with -every- version that came before it. This is where much of the disappointment comes from in older players, who were always lead to believe that the DR was to be something different, not just another land prettied up with darker textures and art. Not only that, but the unplayable idea of time flowing differently in the DR was introduced. Listen, folks have a hard time keeping the odd time of PS straight without adding a second flow of time in the DR that can not even be RPed correctly, as the characters move at exactly the same rate, and the passage of time does not really change. Five minutes is five minutes.
These are the Settings that Grunn RPs by. In other words, die, run through the DR as fast as you can, and basically forget you were ever there. All in all (sorry Xillix, my friend),I see the entire thing as contrived, shallow, and tending to take the easy way out by further rationalizing current game mechanics. Not the writing, as that is very good, but the story and feel behind it. I get the distinct feel of “Death is meaningless. Live with it.” There are many other problems I see with it that can not be easily resolved, such as the legal system and what really does happen to... *sighs* Nevermind. too much to go into, and all problematic.
I am not saying this to insult Xillix or the writers behind the current story. He is a good friend of mine, and knows I am blunt, to the point, very vocal, and somewhat tactless when I dislike something. But, he is still the same guy I remember as a noob causing trouble in the game, trying so hard for folks to accept what he was doing. He also still gets mad when they do not. Party on, Xillix. ;)
How will I RP death now with the 'new' Settings? I don't know. Perhaps I just won't let my character get into situations where they die anymore, and await the next verson of the Death Realm to appear. That, and I will contiue to Haunt it.
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Every one seems to miss an essential point in my initial post. It is not DONE, nothing is nor will it be any time soon. My frustration with the lack of patience, the demanding tone, and the outright character assassination has reached its end. In me you had someone willing to listen to you and take your feedback to heart that is now lost to you, I will no longer be operating as a face for the ps dev team until further notice.
Expect broad sweeping change, expect players whining about it, and expect that I will no longer be concerned with it for quite some time.
Utm you of all people should know my vision is not so limited. A couple people on these forums really do make ps a hostile place to work for free.
Lets use an analogy of working in a soup kitchen, when the bums start telling you the soup sucks and your service is not valued, saying things like F**K YOU, and further that you are, on a personal level, of questionable character, I might choose to go volunteer for a children's literacy program instead.
For me this has gone past the point of tolerance.
I can be reached via email by anyone who sincerely needs me, and is kind and friendly.
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/me scratches his head
Ehhh ... what the ... Alright, wait a minute.
/me goes to smack everyone up the head who thinks they can do a better job than the Devs
You think you can do better, then quit whining and go apply for the team! :P
Now seriously, I'm not 100% where these 'personal attacks' are coming from but it would be a shame if a few people's strong opinions managed to ruin the positive turn towards opening up, that has been going on in PS lately. I can't be the only one that noticed the entire Dev team making a much bigger effort to get the community involved and also giving feedback on our suggestions. Don't let that goal die because of some hardship, it'll be worth it in the end.
Now lets all take a few deep breaths, calm down and look at this thread ..
It started with a discussion between players. Nobody will disagree that the way the DR is supposed to be working and the way it works now are quite different. So that gives us players a problem ... we have more ways than one of treating the DR. That's what this discussion was about. Not how it should be done, people who want to fix that .. revert to my fourth line :P
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Few notes on my side:
The thread is a very good read, up to the point you start going too much into the details of "who is right" or "who has more power to request/define something, players or devs". I think in every post we make, we should keep in mind those two arguments and leave those completely out of the discussion.
There is no right or wrong here, but people trying to sort out a very interesting concept of the death realm. Is a fascinating realm with endless possibilities of expansion, so it's very normal each of us has different ideas and views about it.
I appreciate the fact both devs and players are trying to push hard to make this game better, and Seytra wouldn't have written such long reasoning without having a passion for this game, I least this is how I see it, and how it should be.
Now for the good parts of your posts which remained a bit hidden.
Quote of Xillix:
"I can speak for the dev team in one regard, we do read the forums your thoughts do reach us, but honestly, we probably are just as dissatisfied with certain elements of the game as the players are if not moreso."
That's true, and in many cases we find ourselves rewriting what we created previously. The somewhat hard response of Xillix I think is blended by this quote, where he says at times things are not perfect and will be changed. I think players and devs have all right to suggest what they would like to see, as soon as the discussion is polite, it's a game after all ;)
Quote of Seytra:
The engine, sure. The client, definitely, but the settings? FAICT, the settings is free to go ahead without even looking at what the engine can do now. In fact, the settings is the only part of PS that can be done completely without all others, so why does it glue itself to the engine more than any other part? I am obviously missing a major chunk here.
...
but certainly not with "We know it all but we don't tell you, na-ha-ha!".
The fact we cannot disclose everything is for two reasons:
- things are not defined yet, so also the devs have no idea on a certain question you raise
- we are not likely to release parts that have not been agreed with more people in the team, so if something is pending review by me, Xillix cannot release it, even if he would like to
This doesn't exclude that some of what we released may change, and the change happens for three main factors:
- devs find a better idea, and change the content
- we get a better idea from players
- we have to align to new content in game, like new areas, new NPCs, new engine capabilities
Given that, surely it's hard to roleplay something that's changing, like for setting is hard to write on something that's changing (or not working properly). At the end we decided to go with the approach to have a playable game, so we bend things at times just to have it playable and meaningful in the current context, but surely those will be changed later.
This is the good and bad of playing a game which is in development, not in beta, 2 months from release, and we have to face it taking the good parts.
Quote by Seytra
So, naturally, there shouldn't be quests leading to unimplemented places, but there also should be no quests leading to places that one can't be reasonably expected to reach in the "final" version. IOW, the DR itself may contain quests, but those must be confined to the DR itself, and all quests in the WOTL must also be confined to the WOTL. The (rare) quests that do cross these borders must state how the transition is achieved, to not create the impression that it's an everyday thing.
I agree to this point of view, and I'm sure also Xillix agrees, we discussed many times of the death realm internally, and we are on the same line here. The quests you refer to are very old, probably quest number 5 or 6, and surely have to be removed now that we have a bigger DR and more quests.
We agree DR should be separate, it has been designed to be separate, but today we need some connection to it for everyone, so we use the area we have, while tomorrow it will be just for high-level or death-corrupted chars, which will probably create their domains there and pay an heavy toll to move from DR to living realm.
So keep up the good suggestions and hints, we will do our best to listen and implement. :)
In general I would like people to leave good discussions in the forums, so those can be reused later when we decide to redesign some parts. This can be a very good thread, and can be reused, if it was not for the last part. My suggestion is to be the "moderators" yourself, and ask moderators to remove your posts in agreement with other people when you see the thread has turned bad, so we leave a good reusable asset here.