PlaneShift
Support => Forum and Website Discussions => Topic started by: foxgamer on August 19, 2007, 07:11:59 pm
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I am curious as to why you are not using google ads on this forum to earn extra money towards development of PS? As they say, every little helps, and being as popular as you are, the little could be quite a lot!
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Ads are ugly and annoying :) Besides, we don't need any money for development. There's really nothing we could do with it, and even current donations are for emergencies (like forum/website/server hosting) or future random tools we may want to look into.
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I see. That's okay. I just thought I would mention it as some boards overlook the extra revenue, but if you only have money for emergencies and stuff, then I guess it doesn't really matter. lol.
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you guys should take away the donations page then.
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it wasn't there for the longest time. people kept asking for one, so they gave in and added one. no where do you see the project asking for money, nor will you.
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you wouldnt need/want/accept donations if you had ads. and frankly i think if you all had a bonus coming your way you might try a little harder.
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you wouldnt need/want/accept donations if you had ads. and frankly i think if you all had a bonus coming your way you might try a little harder.
umm no? Money just means more pressure which means less enjoyment, and enjoyment is the very reason the devs stick around in most cases.
As Karyuu said, Ads are ugly and annoying.
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there would still be people asking if they could donate. it has already been stated that ads are ugly, intrusive, and pointless in a game designed completely on donated time and equipment, made for the fun of making it.
you have no idea how hard these devs work and how much effort they put forth to create this game.
this is your final warning conny, any more defamatory remarks from you about the dev team or this project, and i shall show you the same door you came through to get here, and ask that you leave. you have worn out your welcome.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Seems xor decided to say the same thing in fewer words. nevertheless, my warning still stands. you are treading on very thin ice.
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Flash:
http://uploads.ungrounded.net/302000/302922_saysomethingwhat.swf
main info page:
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/302922
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Join us in making a free mmorpg a reality! Click the button below and contribute to PlaneShift creation.
On the paypal page, be sure to specify a feature or area that you would like to see expanded or improved in "Payment For" field.
does this mean people who donate are more inclined to be listened to than the ones who dont?
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Its probably to give the devs an idea of what the donated money was intended for.
Correct me if i'm wrong. :D
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Its probably to give the devs an idea of what the donated money was intended for.
Correct me if i'm wrong. :D
You're right :) Donations have no (afaik) affect on what we work on. Not for me anyway ;)
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I am curious as to why you are not using google ads on this forum to earn extra money towards development of PS? As they say, every little helps, and being as popular as you are, the little could be quite a lot!
Our operating costs at the moment are very minimal so there is no worries there. I think the forums cost me $6 a month which I think I can pay without much problem....
The only thing that we would use money for is to either:
a) Buy some hardware ( like me a Mac so I can test there :) )
b) Buy software for artists/developers.
But as is stands now we use a lot of free tools or tools that we have purchased anyways for our own use. The only way money would lead to serious development is if it was serious money ( ie a full time salary ).
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The only way money would lead to serious development is if it was serious money ( ie a full time salary ).
ha, well said.
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I've been wondering about the business side of PS. I read somewhere that Atomic Blue is a non-profit org, is that right? I hate the idea of google ads but donations are cool, acraig shouldn't have to pay for the forums hosting every month (even if it is only 6 bucks). Domain name registering could be paid for by the npo, and if donations piled up the team could even hire freelance devs to do some boring and time-consuming jobs (I'm not a coder but I imagine that there are those type of jobs to be done :)) Or maybe some advertising.
Have a look at the Metabrainz (http://metabrainz.org/) site which is the npo that runs Musicbrainz (http://musicbrainz.org). The project director even manages to pull a small salary.
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Why would we hire someone? This will always be a volunteer project - it's unfair to pay some devs but not others, so no one is getting anything unless everyone is. And then what about casual contributors? How much do they get? ;) You run into all sorts of complications. Truly, we are fine as we are now, with no money involved for development.
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Why would we hire someone? This will always be a volunteer project - it's unfair to pay some devs but not others, so no one is getting anything unless everyone is. And then what about casual contributors? How much do they get? ;) You run into all sorts of complications. Truly, we are fine as we are now, with no money involved for development.
I was thinking more about someone who had no interest in the project and wouldn't mind doing jobs that volunteers wouldn't be so keen to do. But yeah, I wasn't really thinking about how that might affect the other contributors and it probably would cause more complications that than problems solved. But still... the npo must have some need for cashflow. Domain registration? Advertising? Forums? If not, what happens to the donations?
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Well, I needed some online 'space' anyways so I use hydlaa.com as my personal email address now as well so I don't mind paying the hosting fees there. It's only when I would have to pay something that I would look on my credit card bill and wonder "What the hell is that?" that I would be concerned about.
One thing that might be cool is PS t-shirts or mugs or something :)
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you get a donation for say 50 dollars. you split that between all the devs.
you make 100 dollars a month in advertising. you split that between all the devs.
you hire mercenaries who really know a certain problem that you cant figure out. bugs that have been there for a long time that you cant seem to work out.
whats so wrong with that?
like PVP. dark age of Camelot has almost perfected MMO PVP. pitch them a few bucks for advice and guidance with pvp.
takes money to make money =)
also its said that alot of work is done on weekends. this ties up devs free time i bet. you know. its hard to turn down things like dates and get togethers with the excuse "im working on my mmo"
might make things go smoother if they were getting a little dough for their work. the money opportunity is all around you guys. especially with this amount of players. maybe you guys should look into a financial advisor.
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you don't seem to understand that they aren't in it to make money.
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so they are going to turn down the money? you make a free finished game with all the goals it has planned.
there will be tons of money involved. and none of it will come from players. or banners in game. or adds in game.
you say they arent in it to make money (which i really dont believe).
but would they turn down money? like i said theres already money all around for this game. that wont interfere with the game.
if a dev said they dont want money for this game then i will truly believe they are lying.
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I'm not interested in involving money - players will get all sorts of weird ideas that because we'd be getting something out of this, they are "owed" things :]
Nonsense.
Stop trying to start an argument here, Coneitic.
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believe it or not, the self satisfaction felling of building a world from scratch means a lot to some people.
think of this game as a hobby. you don't get to expect to get paid for whatever hobby you may have do you?
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Non-profit organisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization)
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many people build their careers out of hobbys.
players will get all sorts of weird ideas that because we'd be getting something out of this, they are "owed" things
what are you talking about?
if they were paying to play then ya they would be "owed" some things.
if your stating that you would turn down money that wouldnt disrupt the game then you are blatently lying.
plus i think this is a subject for say talad or a more down to earth dev to respond to. not a player or a forum moderator or a doodler to respond to. so i'll stop speaking on this. =)
no arguement anymore.
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What is a more "down to earth dev"? :) What I have posted was previously said many times by Luca, sillyhead. Check out the link saladasalad posted about non-profit organizations - you may actually learn something today.
Besides, it's bad form to call someone a liar just because you can't possibly imagine them not working on something for money. Don't you think?
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Have you never felt that feeling of great accomplishment after you see what you have created? I know its kinda deep, but it feels great. I doubt there is a person here who has not felt it. THAT is why PS staff are doing this as a hobby. I bet you any dev can tell you that when they log in and see this game they have made from nothing, they get that same feeling.
Plus, im sure you can get more out of someone when they work on their own time then under a deadline.
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Money doesnt create a deadline. you guys are not listening
im not saying your working for money persay. tho i truly think thats the whole point of the game.
im saying if people give you money for the work you've already done. and you say i dont want that. your lying.
its not about salaries or money for stuff added. its about that you can recieve money. say as a reward for work already done.
like you build a car model you bought from walmart. someone who loves cars says wow heres 5 bucks you did a great job.
lemme know when you finish the next one and i'll spot you another 5. i love the car so much i'll pay just to see more.
theres no obligation. if you dont make another you dont have to. theres no deadline
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Heheh, that's why we have a donations page - so players who really want to, can give something that we may save as emergency funds or funds for development/artist tools.
None of that money is going into our personal pockets however, because Atomic Blue is registered as a non-profit organization. Remember that link? Still worth checking out.
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I really don't want money for working on PS. Like I said, it creates a sense of pressure. I want to work on PS when I feel like, and not have a feeling of "I've got to work on PS, I'm getting money for it". Maybe you're happy to sit down and do jack all while people give you money, but I feel guilty if I do that and so I won't do it.
Of course, you think everything I just said is a lie, so I'm not sure why I bothered :P We have a donations page, ads really suck and I hate them, and we don't need anything else right now.
Yeah.. and we're non-profit so taking profit is a bit illegal :P
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Not to mention anything with advertisements is not truly free. I recommend you even get rid of the sigs as they are usually nothing more than cheap personal ads. ;)
Sadly mine gets me no action.......
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Maybe it's cause that picture is slightly creepy?
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It is Kran-tastic as far as I am concerned. What can I say I have a cheesy web-cam and that is about the only thing I ever used it for.
Nobody ever said much about it, do you think I should remove it?
Some people might say the same thing about me so it is sort of truth-in-advertising. It is getting a little tired I suppose.
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It amazes me sometimes how long it takes people to get their heads around a simple statement.
PS Devs dont want money for what they are doing, they do it for the pleasure of doing it. I'm not going to try and claim they are selfless because they do get something out of it, satisfaction. Lots and lots of people do like doing voluntary work purely because they enjoy what they are doing, be that creating something, providing something or just helping people.
I love the way the project works and i think it would be less appealing if i knew that people were making a buck out of it.
And I have to say that it dissapoints me that someone would have the insolence to claim that those Devs who have replied in this post are lieing, not down-to-earth or describing them (and i can only assume you are refering to the artists on the Dev team) as doodlers. :thumbdown:
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they are doodlers. thats how it starts. doodling until you find something that would really work.
and all I've said is that you would be lying if you said you would turn down money for the game. especially if it didn't affect the game in anyway. and it is a blatant lie. otherwise there would be no donation page.
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Ads are ugly and annoying :) Besides, we don't need any money for development. There's really nothing we could do with it, and even current donations are for emergencies (like forum/website/server hosting) or future random tools we may want to look into.
Read this again, then read it again it might sink in, It is for emergencies (like forum/website/server hosting) not for Dev pay.
To me that is very clear, so for the life of me can not see why you are going on about it.
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You think we haven't found something that really works, Coneitic? You've got to stop trying to be insulting.
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im not trying to be insulting. but putting yourself on a pedestal and say your doing this only for satisfaction, and if money comes your way you would turn it down is lying to people and yourself.
i already stated that the money can be used to better the dev team in many ways. and noone responded just with the cliche "were not in this for money" u wanna talk about its for emergency's. well hell, whats an emergency? no money to pay fragnetics? no money to pay the website? bugs that cant be fixed?
did anyone even respond to my idea of hiring "mercenaries"?
bugs i have seen since i started playing are still there. the server still fails quite often. say u put advertising on this forum and the website.
"OH BUT OMG THEY ARE SOOOOO UGLY EWWWWWW I HAVE TO SEE A BANNNER ON THE SITE..... OMG I DONT KNOW HOW TO MANUVER AROUND THEM!"
"WE ARE NOT IN THIS FOR MONEY!!!!!!!"
how about your in this for the game to finish right? to make this a decent game? we obviously theres problems you cant fix, or dont understand how to fix them. so why not take that money u could make....... and hire merc's. people who already work on these kinda games and work specifically on these areas, or people who wont even look at this game if they arent getting paid.
ok so i get it you all get your jollys off of doing this for free... i see now that if the end game becomes quite popular and it starts making hundreds of thousands of dollars you will all say... no way this was for satisfaction and a hobby... you can take that money and shove it.
but what if that money can be used to better the game and help fix the problems that wont go away???
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You are just so good at ignoring every post people make here. Let me summarize this thread, and then I'm out of here.
1. Atomic Blue is a non-profit organization.
2. No donations are going to pay for anyone's salary, even part-time - even for a month or a few weeks.
3. It is unfair to pay some developers and not others. It is unfair to ignore contributors and prospects.
4. This game will not make hundreds of thousands of dollars unless we put up a monthly fee, which is not the goal of the project.
Read. Reread. Process.
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i already stated that the money can be used to better the dev team in many ways. and noone responded just with the cliche "were not in this for money" u wanna talk about its for emergency's. well hell, whats an emergency? no money to pay fragnetics? no money to pay the website? bugs that cant be fixed?
Fragnetics does not ask for money - no problems
Website costs $6 a month - I spend more when I go to the vending machine.
Bugs that can't be fixed. Bugs will be fixed just working on other things.
how about your in this for the game to finish right? to make this a decent game? we obviously theres problems you cant fix, or dont understand how to fix them. so why not take that money u could make....... and hire merc's. people who already work on these kinda games and work specifically on these areas, or people who wont even look at this game if they arent getting paid.
Don't ever ever EVER pretend to have an idea of the work we do or assume things about the project. People who work on these games that have the skills we would require are already working in the industry. Plus it not so easy to just say "Come fix this bug". It requires a fair amount of time to understand the code base and the project. It's not just "Oh, you just need to do this".
ok so i get it you all get your jollys off of doing this for free... i see now that if the end game becomes quite popular and it starts making hundreds of thousands of dollars you will all say... no way this was for satisfaction and a hobby... you can take that money and shove it.
If I could make a living doing this game I probably would but at the moment I am happy to work on my regular job and work on PlaneShift when I want to.
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Why is it so difficult to understand?
That there are people who work at something they enjoy for the pleasure of it?
More power to them I say, it's true that in some cases teams have worked voluntarily to produce something that has been bought out and produced as a commercial game, for example, Red Orchestra, originally a Mod for Unreal Tournament 2004, it was produced as a full commercial product, good on them I say, after all they reaped the rewards of their hard work, and are probably hard at work in some office space coding for the boss.
However in this case the motivations of the dev team are not financial gain, they are actually working hard, in their own time, freely, to produce something they feel strongly about, a free and open MMO for others to enjoy. Ok so it's not complete, but after all, we know it's a work-in-progress, that we are privileged to be able to enjoy, bug-test, evaluate, and watch as it grows.
I feel that the subject of advertising as been clearly and totally covered, and that the present policy is unambiguous, the same can be said of donations, a donation is just that, a freely given token of appreciation from the giver to the dev team and the project in general.
I enjoy having a community website that's not cluttered up with ads, no intrusive popups, popunders or whatever the latest computer lagging flashy advertisment is formatted as. I am actually less likely to take a site seriously if it promises a free to play game, if it's site is loaded with ads it's a touch hypocritical.
I understand that for some other games the costs of running the sites and servers 'freely' may force some advertising, but with Planeshift this is clearly not the case, and this too as been stated.
If in the future some big money company takes an interest in the talents of the dev team, and offers them a lucrative deal in exchange for the codebase and media, well then, I suggest you read this http://www.planeshift.it/license.html (http://www.planeshift.it/license.html) again, it's very informative, and clear in this regard, open client, proprietory media.
It's a big project, it's still in it's infancy really, yes there are bugs, but instead of whining about the bugs, why not actually look at what has been accomplished? I think that a great deal has been accomplished, especially when compared to other projects.
I don't know why people can't just be proud of what we actually have, a growing, changing experience, a chance to say to our friends, that we were a part of it at the beginning, one day to point to a legendary figure in the game and say, 'I remember when s/he fell off the edge of the world', or 'I remember when this was all fields and ideas'.
Money is no compensation for this, and I for one applaud the ideals that this project stands for, and hope the dev team take the time to do it right, instead of rushing to produce something which belittles them and disappoints those of us who have the patience to wait for what we have promised ourselves, a product worthy of those who develop it.
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*stands up and gives Evil Scotsman applause* \\o//
well said
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Whilst I have nothing new to add to the "this is a non-profit project - money causes problems - ads are annoying and intrusive" argument, just one comment please.
Coneitic: Spelling, grammar, punctuation. These add clarity and weight to an argument. Two or more sentences to one paragraph isn't a punishable offence. Construct a series of connected statements to establish a proposition (a cookie to whoever can tell me where I'm stealing that from).
Actually, one other comment. The prevailing opinion is that at this present time money isn't the object. Perhaps when Steel Blue, or Platinum Blue (made that one up, sorry!) finally rolls around and more hardware investment is needed, the trickle of donations will be solicited, but it is possible for a moderately successful project to operate on non-capitalist pay-the-money-get-the-talent principles.
*calmly steps down, collapses his neat little soapbox, a little wave to the crowd, and saunters off*
Comments, complaints, flames, and chocolate fondues with the creamy centres to the usual place. Thank you.
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well acraig. you were the only one to finally give a real response to my post. one that wasnt cliche and wasnt immediately dismissive(kayruu). most post just read the first line and hurried with the usual response for some reason. i cant stand when someone uses a thread as a chance to brown nose the devs. and try to sneak in a bunch of good words about the game instead of responding directly to the points made.
thanks again acraig. for "keeping it real"
but one other thing... u told me what wasnt an emergency.. so what is?
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i cant stand when someone uses a thread as a chance to brown nose the devs. and try to sneak in a bunch of good words about the game instead of responding directly to the points made.
And the rest of us can't stand it when a dead horse is being flogged onto the third page when the reasoning behind the desire to remain ad-free (money not required, non-profit organisation and paying developers is a no-no, that several of the developers, game masters and moderators have all said no) have been clearly and carefully stated. Over and over. The philosophy behind the structure of the development has been debated (over and over) in many threads. It's the way it is because that's the way it is. Introducing a commercial element or a initiative-based pay scheme (as you suggested here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29699.msg340634#msg340634)) goes against the philosophy of AB and PS.
And just going off here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29699.msg340751#msg340751), you're missing the freaking point. This is not a commercial venture, read the license and the reasoning behind it (http://www.planeshift.it/license.html).
Oh, and I disagree with your sig. Trias are in no way all there is.
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my sig is coneitic. that was his way of thinking. it summed up his character. he was all about trias no matter if he was right or wrong, good or evil as long as he got his pockets fatter. yano... a personality in a charactor that wasnt mine... i think its called rp.
i like how you speak for everyone here, its a dead horse thread but everyone kept responding, and my thoughts and views changed as i got responses to my post. if you cant see the evolution of my post from when it started then read it again. i had to restate alot of things, because the responses i got where not clear most of the time. they were simple vague responses that were cliche and didnt explain much. kind of like the "it takes time, we are working on it" line that gets spit out constantly.
you dont like the thread? noone forced you to read it, and if people responded so well, so carefully and clearly stated then there would be no reason to keep on with responses. but i guess noone else sees that.
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Posting under the name Coneitic, attributed a quote to the same name, you will accept it provides possibility for confusion.
You have your opinions, you are welcome to them. I don't see how they changed through the thread, it seems pretty consistent "it'd be better with money". However, you have your wish. I will no longer bother to read or reply to your posts :) Hope you continue to enjoy contributing to the evolution of a game
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5gMeXz2YMw
You are just so good at ignoring every post people make here. Let me summarize this thread, and then I'm out of here.
1. Atomic Blue is a non-profit organization.
2. No donations are going to pay for anyone's salary, even part-time - even for a month or a few weeks.
3. It is unfair to pay some developers and not others. It is unfair to ignore contributors and prospects.
4. This game will not make hundreds of thousands of dollars unless we put up a monthly fee, which is not the goal of the project.
Read. Reread. Process.