PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Maju on August 29, 2007, 04:46:10 am
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I love making quests... but I hate that the quests dynamics is such that you cannot really enjoy that. The situation has come to a point that I'm questioning if I can play PS at all while this issue is unsolved.
Problem no.1: You need to say certain exact phrases in most quests... but you may have no idea which some of these sentences are. It's a matter of guessing but often is not any easy guess. The "mystery" surrounding quests' exact sentences is such that the exact form of these sentences can only be discussed in very close circles (always OOC, naturally) like in-game friends and guild. In many cases other players may not know the reply maybe because they never did that quest or because they forgot about the exact answer (notice that ridiculous differences like "sent" and "send" or "up" and "upwards" can mean that you can continue/finish the quest of ou get stuck).
Problem no. 2: often you get quests that you can't solve (at least normally) with your stats. Maybe you need an ulbernaut heart or carrying a weight that is double of what you can.
Problem no. 3: unfinished quests can interfere with other quests. The theory says that you must do quests one by one... but often you have no clear idea of what the quest is about until you are deep into it. Example: "want to learn a job?" "yes" "you got a quest" "you need to bring me two steel stocks" "what?! I can't even make steel ingots, I can carry only like six ores and I'm not interested in making shields anyhow, mr. Smith". It doesn't matter: you have to finish that quest if you want to be sure that it won't interfere with others in the future.
Problem no. 4: you can't abandon a quest (now not even GMs can remove them for you).
My experience says that, with some experience (that is in your 7th or 8th char), you can do most quests... but, if you are into questing there will be a number of them that you won't be able to solve because any of the reasons above. In few cases the quest itself did not provide sufficient information as to where to find the item to finish it (and there are too many NPCs in Yilakum as to be asking all of them, much less with no know key sentence).
Most quests are just plain silly (give some faction points, a few trias and some experience and that's all - they are in fact not worth the effort of having to run all around Yilakum to finish them) but a few are strategica tehy may give glyphs, jobbooks or access to the winch area)l. Now, the common player can't know which is which. Only someone with a cheatsheet may know. This gives too much power to the few privileged players that have access to those cheatsheets, leaving the rest dependant on them, what is totally unfair.
There's no mystery in quests: just unsolvable problems for the independent quest-doer. The fact that they can't be discussed openly in the official forums doesn't help but "clandestine" info-holder power vortices (no mystery but corruption based in "unspeakable" privileged information that becomes a tool for in-game power). The fact that they can't be discarded only adds to the difficulty.
In the end the game becomes impossible to play. And really I don't feel like playing an impossible game or to have to beg for the cheatsheet.
So, until this issue is solved, I will not play the game anymore, I fear. I have playtested enough and these are my conclussions: the quest system sucks, what makes the game suck.
See you.
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I do agree with your point on Problem 1, but even still, isn't there more to Planeshift than just quests? You have the community, smithing, mining, fighting, magic, etc, your not just limited to quests. The game is still not even finished, isn't it a little early to give up before something is presentable? What other game is even similar to PS, in community, or game value? Its like when you get a bug on a beta application on your computer, do you just throw it out, or wait for a patch? In any case, we will miss you :'(, and I hope that they fix the quest applications too, because while I work on other tasks, they can be frustrating.
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I think the questing system has come a long way and is doing great, and I see improvments all the time.
infact I dont think #3 is an issue anymore because I have just recently had several quests open even been able to successfully deal with an NPC that I had a quest open with. So I'd like to say thanks for all they hard work that goes into the quest system and I doubt you guys are done yet :)
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Problem no.1: You need to say certain exact phrases in most quests
Wrong.
Even when given an exact phrase to say, there are usually more than a dozen other variations that work. If you can't read exactly what was said to you, that's not the fault of settings.
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Number two is not quite right either because you do not need to acquire the item from its source for anyway. You need steel stock ask a smelter to sell you some, you need an ulbernaut heart buy one from someone fighting ulbernauts. As for the anvil quest you are warned it is an extremely heavy piece of equipment, it would be better if perhaps the exact weight was mentioned but you can get strength potions.
I have had fairly good luck getting info from people in game by vaguely describing my errand and complaining about the particular problem I am having. E.G.: "This guy sent me to get some Kranberries and I talked to this other person who told me Johnny had some but I cannot get Johnny to talk about them." You want to be vague enough that someone who has done the errand can identify it but someone who hasn't does not get too much information.
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The issue about having to guess the right phrases for making progress in a quest did improve the last time. Nevertheless it is still there sometimes and shouldn't be just denied.
But like Seneche said, quests are only a part of the game. I think to stop playing just because of that would be a mistake - even if you now have several blocked quests.
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The issue about having to guess the right phrases for making progress in a quest did improve the last time. Nevertheless it is still there sometimes and shouldn't be just denied.
I agree, and they're constantly improving "for future generations." (meaning if something is pointed out that should be added, we add it but the person who pointed it out won't be able to use it in their instance of the quest.) There is a limit, however, only so many phrase variations should be added, and I think that our quests understand a lot more than most early text adventures did. If you've ever played Zork, you should realize how intuitive PS quests are in comparison. (And if you haven't played Zork, you should. It's free online by now, I'm sure) :)
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As stated elsewhere priority 1 server stability, priority 2 npc client stability, priority 3 npc dialogue system.
Settings has made every effort to alleviate the "guess the phrase" problem and a whole host of other concerns.
Now we patiently wait our turn in the priority scale, and guess what? So do the players :).
Maju if you really enjoy quests, but find them problematic, I have trouble believing that is the worst part of the game for you. Enjoy your break. Maybe little faeries will come down from the crystal and make everything better while you are gone.
As to the existence of cheat sheets the existence of these means SOMEONE solved the quests. I do not think players should be given a clear walkthrough as to where to get everything they want. These exist for most games however because it is an inevitability that people will get stuck at certain points. For instance i have used them when a game puzzle was color perception dependent, as i am color-blind. What I mean here is while cheat sheets will always exist, I do not think PS should provide the community with one.
None of this is to deny that there are issues with quests, there are and we all (devs and players) know it. The stock answer never changes, it just takes time.
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The game is fun, plain and simple. Some of the mechanics need tweaking, which being a beta game is being done, but all in all PS is a fun game.
I have to admit I have gotten upset about some of the quest ‘key phrases’ myself and have swore up a storm at my computer monitor. But eventually I sit back, take a deep breath, move on to something else and come back to that quest later. Quite honestly, a silly thing that bothers me that is not a game problem it is a role-play aspect of questing. One of my characters talks funny, (Collier: “Hey! Who ya say’n is talkin funny?”). When dealing with NPC’s I have to take him out of character to hit the key words. (But that’s my problem, not the games.)
Anyway, my name is Rip and I’m a PlaneShift junky... >o)
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I am so frustrated with the interaction with NPCs in quests that I'm about to just bag this whole experience. I even eventually guess the right things to say, but giving people money for items? Complete disaster. I spent 45 minutes today trying to get 1 damn wooden sword from Gregori, and every time I give him 50 tria, he takes it, system says he doesn't need it, and I get nothing. I've wasted money and time, and it's just too frustrating. I'm doing everything right, but the poor interaction dynamic has just completely exhausted my patience.
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Problem no.1: You need to say certain exact phrases in most quests
Wrong.
Even when given an exact phrase to say, there are usually more than a dozen other variations that work. If you can't read exactly what was said to you, that's not the fault of settings.
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It depends on the quest. Example:
NPC: "What have you found about the sword?"
Known data: It's intelligent, evil, its name is XX (spoiler) and spellYY makes certain effect (spoiler)
Correct answer: "about ancient sword" ???
Try saying anything that you really know and you fail miserably. Try reading a cheatsheet and you do it blindfolded.
There are others that are equally messy. There are many that are fine but when you have started maybe 40 quests, it's likely that you have half a dozen quests, often the most strategical and complex ones, that have this problem (and/or other problems that don't allow you to finish them).
infact I dont think #3 is an issue anymore because I have just recently had several quests open even been able to successfully deal with an NPC that I had a quest open with. So I'd like to say thanks for all they hard work that goes into the quest system and I doubt you guys are done yet
Well, the GM I asked to blamed it in that bug and it may well be the case because once I got the correct answers, I could not make the NPC say anything but inconsistencies.
Maybe the bug is in something else, maybe when you change tab to exchange with guildmates/friends/people around, the NPC loses track of the conversation. Maybe if you don't reply correctly in the first occasion, then NPC loses track. Not sure but the case is that the known good answers don't work sometimes.
Number two is not quite right either because you do not need to acquire the item from its source for anyway. You need steel stock ask a smelter to sell you some, you need an ulbernaut heart buy one from someone fighting ulbernauts. As for the anvil quest you are warned it is an extremely heavy piece of equipment, it would be better if perhaps the exact weight was mentioned but you can get strength potions.
I think NPCs should just not give you quests that you can't do with your current stats. Alternatively it could be fixed if you could trade while sitting (so you could ask/hire someone else to carry the brutal weight for you). The weight problem doesn't just happen with the anvil, but also with a quest from Harnquist where he asks for about 15 ores and a quest from another NPC where she asks for a beer keg that weights 120 pounds. No warning is given in either one, nor the NPC seems able to discern if you are strong enough for that job.
There are no ulber hearts in the market. I've been putting auction signs for the last several days and nothing. I even spent leghty ours killing ulbers slowly with my weak magic... only to get no loot at all.
You have the community, smithing, mining, fighting, magic, etc, your not just limited to quests.
But quests (or rather the inability to finish them) limit me: I can't get the glyph I wanted for my char, I can't get access to the winch area... all those things need quests. There's no way around (maybe you can buy the glyph but not the Winch area access). I really don't want to play a game where I can't obtain what I want (and what I legitimately may deserve) without cheating. It just gets me frustrated and angry.
I am so frustrated with the interaction with NPCs in quests that I'm about to just bag this whole experience. I even eventually guess the right things to say, but giving people money for items? Complete disaster. I spent 45 minutes today trying to get 1 damn wooden sword from Gregori, and every time I give him 50 tria, he takes it, system says he doesn't need it, and I get nothing. I've wasted money and time, and it's just too frustrating. I'm doing everything right, but the poor interaction dynamic has just completely exhausted my patience.
I didn't even try that one. But that's the kind of glitch that gets me mad. The fact that quests can't be discussed openly doesn't help at all solving these glitches. Each time I've said that something doesn't work, the answers I get are:
- Try some other sentence (which one? I'm saying literally what I'm supposed to say)
- Have you another unfinished quest? (Sure, many quests are impossible to finish)
- We can't discuss these things as they would be spoilers (spolied is what I am now)
This attitude doesn't help at all. After all some players do have the spoilers (because they belong to some powerful guild or something) and that allows them to progress, while the common independent player can't. It's a fraud.
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- Have you another unfinished quest? (Sure, many quests are impossible to finish)
Current number of quests that are impossible to finish (ie broken beyond ability to complete:)
Zero.
NPC: "What have you found about the sword?"
That's been changed for some time now. Please stop assuming quests don't change and spreading your half-truths. We've been listening to our players. Most quests are spoon-fed to you verbatim and when they're not we get whiny bitchy crap like this.
You don't like it? Don't do quests.
Don't like that? There's the door.
See you.
Oh wait. You already said that. Why are you still here?
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A few things I'd like to add, though xil and jeraphon have pretty much covered it all.
First...
It just gets me frustrated and angry.
You get angry for silly reasons then ;)
Second, instead of complaining about quests, why not suggest changes. We're not all perfect you know, the people who write the quests work bloody hard on them and they do occasionally miss little glitches, if you come across these, don't come running to the complaints forum, contact the team with the problem and maybe suggest an alternative. (Bug tracker is there for a reason).
And lastly, stop getting so upset about a game, it'll only raise your blood pressure. As Jeraphon said, they do try their best to correct errors in quests as soon as they can. Oh and you can have a lot of fun without getting into the winch, in fact the winch really isn't all that exciting. I've gone more than a year without bothering with quests much, and I've had tons of fun simply by roleplaying.
Words to live by: make do.
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once again I made a calm polite post and it has been ignored while the ranting goes on, seriously it sickens me. People come at this forum with some really weird angles. For our players who do read the devs responses closely please translate for the people who do not care what we write. Remember that everyone on settings began as a player, we know the frustration players sometimes feel.
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Oh and you can have a lot of fun without getting into the winch, in fact the winch really isn't all that exciting.
Sure it is. :detective:
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I'd like to applegize ( sorry, inside joke ) to the settings team for how hard it is for them to work. As Xillix has said they are doing the best they can with the current tools they have.
Unfortunately, at the moment, the tools they have are barely passable to use. It's like them trying to right a novel and they have a stub of a pencil and one piece of paper. I think his secret plan is to get enough people together with enough pencils and bits of paper that it all comes together. :)
I know that I do what I can to help them work 'within the system' but we do need to spend some time to focus on those tools they need. There are some project structural changes that are happening over the next few months (some already started ) that I hope will help increase our ability to have the server more stable which will allow more time spent on the tools that actually make the game fun to play.
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Quest guys: You are all doing a fantastic job, I have seen MANY inprovemnet in quests in the short time I have been playing, keep up the good work! I have even found a few mistakes in a few quests myself, and I always reported them back to you guys with a promt responce, so thanks again. I think my favorite mistake I found was on the one quest with Chrosor's quest and somewhere you had to type his name but accdently in the quest his name was misspelled, and it was only so funny because Grroww (my in game husband) spent HOURS trying to Brado to undersand him and I run up and in no time flat because I did a typo and it right. he said something to the extent of, figures you get it with all your typos. it was just funny, I guess you had to be there. anways my main point: You guys are awsome!! \\o// :flowers:
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I'd like to applegize ( sorry, inside joke ) to the settings team for how hard it is for them to work. As Xillix has said they are doing the best they can with the current tools they have.
Unfortunately, at the moment, the tools they have are barely passable to use. It's like them trying to right a novel and they have a stub of a pencil and one piece of paper. I think his secret plan is to get enough people together with enough pencils and bits of paper that it all comes together. :)
I know that I do what I can to help them work 'within the system' but we do need to spend some time to focus on those tools they need. There are some project structural changes that are happening over the next few months (some already started ) that I hope will help increase our ability to have the server more stable which will allow more time spent on the tools that actually make the game fun to play.
Indeed developing this game is no easy task, but I read in several places that there is no more need for funding... hence why we don't advertise, I constantly hear that donations are no longer nessasary. Yet the devs have insufficant tools? I respect that this is hard work and I've always believed that to be why developement takes a while, but I just can't bring myself to think that it is because of a lack of tools, or equipment... Isn't that covered by the funding?
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It's no simple task to either find a tool that fits the need perfectly, or create it yourself - which is what has been happening most of the time. What acraig means is that Settings is sometimes restricted by engine capabilities or simply the unfinished PS code itself. Considering what is currently possible in the game, they don't have a lot to work with (including internal tools like the WC).
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Note: the fact that you got it with your typo is a case of "do you see what you see?" It's not because there's a typo in the triggers. Always be careful to not make the assumption that the way you typed it exactly is the only way you're understood. :)
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no I am pretty sure you had to tell brodo his name miss-spelled..its been fixed awhile..I was just saying a funny story about it is alll..
Honestly tho you guys are doing a great job!
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Indeed developing this game is no easy task, but I read in several places that there is no more need for funding... hence why we don't advertise, I constantly hear that donations are no longer nessasary. Yet the devs have insufficant tools? I respect that this is hard work and I've always believed that to be why developement takes a while, but I just can't bring myself to think that it is because of a lack of tools, or equipment... Isn't that covered by the funding?
This is based solely on the fact that the tools have not been written yet. There is no silver bullet application out there that if we had it would magically solve anything. It comes down to writing the tools ourselves to meet our need. Again, the funding required to handle this would have to be significant and would probably end up being even more work for us to handle the paperwork.
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I spent 45 minutes today trying to get 1 damn wooden sword from Gregori, and every time I give him 50 tria, he takes it, system says he doesn't need it, and I get nothing. (...) I'm doing everything right, (...).
ok.... i'm not the only one that got stumped there, except i don't think he took it from me... he just flat refused it. I tried several ways to give him 50 tria. Wondered if there was a typo... or some unmentiened detail....
I can't get angry, at least not yet, and not for real. I'm too new here! But i am rather ??? at this one.
Tomorrow's another day....
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well, I just can't resist to say something on this topic.
Since the winch came in Game I had only the quests done that were needed for my metallurgy knowledge.
The day quests were important for winch-access I started what I call my quest-marathon.
Sure, there have been some issues and I even complained about some things ... but now with a bunch of done quests on my list I can only say:
Good work !
Well, some of the running is quite a pity ... sure ... but as looking on it as a whole it is all working fine. I do about 2 or 3 quests a week (because doing quests is not the whole thing ;D ) and even with my short english I understand the NPC's and they understand me (most of the time)
well, saying that I still have no winch access >o) ... I must say that the quest system is working pretty fine and it is, for this stage of the game, working well.
So please stop pulling things out of your nose to punch the devs for the quest-system
Tolol
just my 2 Tria
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I agree that the quests are the most disappointing feature of PS. Instead of constantly making excuses, developers should at least be mature enough to admit it. Stop blaming the players every time they suggest that something needs improvement or a complete redesign. Accept your responsibility, if you hope to have any shred of professionalism. Accepting and learning from criticism should be a part of the job. If you can't handle it, then perhaps that job isn't for you.
I have already mentioned in a different thread that many quests have a severe problem, with specific examples (without spoilers). It's likely that the problem is only going to grow and become worse until the developers can no longer handle it. While Jeraphon claims that there are multiple alternative phrases for all the quests, that is simply not true. Many have a very limited range of alternatives or no alternatives at all. I can provide a specific example but that would mean posting a spoiler. However, if someone ever claims that what I just said isn't true, I can prove them wrong. At that point, however, it would probably just turn into a "no, you are lying... no, you are lying" contest. That is another downfall of not posting "spoilers" and seems rather convenient for the devs to avoid embarrassment and responsibility. If people can't post detailed examples of exactly what seems badly written or broken, then devs can just keep being in denial.
I used to play a lot of old text only adventure games, which are basically referred to as "text-parser" games, so I'm quite used to coming up with text phrases for solving quests and progressing.
"You are standing in front of a great fortress.... blah blah blah"
"What do you want to do?>..."
If any of those games had a very limited text-parser, the reviews would rip them apart.
Even if some quests do have alternative phrases as answers, they are simply very limited. A single quest writer *CANNOT* come up with enough combinations to cover every possible alternative that conveys the idea correctly. You cannot claim that you have every "reasonable" alternative because everyone has their own *reasonable* way of saying things or logical alternative solutions, which aren't "unreasonable", just different. As the number of quests grows over time, you won't be able to keep up with the number of alternative phrases, ensuring clear and concise dialog, and checking for spelling mistakes or any sort of bugs that can break a quest or put it in a loop.
A fairly popular MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" also started with a text-parser type of communication with NPCs. You had to guess and type the correct phrases for solving quests. Eventually they couldn't keep up with all the bugs and alternative phrases, not to mention that it was an *outdated* approach, so they had to change it to a menu-driven conversation tree. And that game is backed by a commercial company (Funcom)! If even a commercial development team with several people working on quests decided that a text-parser approach was outdated and they simply could not handle it, a single or a couple of quest writers on PlaneShift team certainly cannot.
It's almost guaranteed that you will eventually drive yourselves into the ground with so many quest related problems that you will try to rewrite the quest dialog system and NPC interaction into a menu-driven conversation tree, except it will be a lot harder to do then because you will have a lot more quests to keep up with. Do you want to learn it the hard way like Anarchy Online / Funcom did or the easy way by being smart now? If you set your egos aside for a moment, you will see that your quest system needs a serious make-over.
If you are wondering how you can possibly create quests and puzzles, if they aren't text based, then take a look at how classic point-and-click adventure games do it (Sierra and Lucas Arts, among many) - combining items, picking correct choices from a conversation tree, using items on NPCs or on environment, manipulating environment etc. I don't advise dead-ends for non-optimal conversation tree choices but you could, for example, have alternative rewards in experience points, trias and items.
You can actually concentrate on adding more *fun* quests with this approach, instead of struggling with bugs and alternative phrases in existing ones.
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Why are you ignoring the fact that you can PM and email Jeraphon or Xillix with quest logs to get issues addressed and taken care of? Why do you ignore the fact that Jeraphon and Xillix check the badtext log constantly to see what phrases players use with NPCs and modify quests based not on what a single pair of eyes see, but hundreds? Why do you ignore the fact that they work tirelessly to make the experience easier and more fun for the players with every new quest? Why do you ignore threads like this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29353.0)?
Why do you choose to be such a complete pain in the ass with phrases like "shred of professionalism," "avoid responsibility," "keep being in denial," etc.? Please learn how to make posts that show respect as much as criticism, or you will be fully ignored by the people who you are trying to make listen to you. I guarantee it.
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The quest system, or to be more exact, the npc dialogue system is not perfect yet, agreed. BUT, and I hope you people get this once and for all, the devs already know it. :) They are very much focussing on improving this part of the game, and you know what? There have been great improvements since I started playing. Instead of bitching at the devs for something, they are already aware of, you should just relax and let them do their job. And this is what they do, they ARE doing their job, or else the npc dialogue would still be at the same level it once was. And this is not the case. I was really surprised on how well the npc system evolved, and further improvements are about to come; just give it some time, the devs are no magicians. Neither do your rants help the development in any way, the opposite is true. The more you bitch at them, the more they are going to ignore you and to take down their effort in improving. Again, we all know that this part of the game is not perfect yet, but if you'd calm down some more and formulate your complaints more politely, you'd give a much better input to the whole thing, and input is related to output, remember that.
We're all in the same boat, so stop boring holes!
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Even if some quests do have alternative phrases as answers, they are simply very limited. A single quest writer *CANNOT* come up with enough combinations to cover every possible alternative that conveys the idea correctly. You cannot claim that you have every "reasonable" alternative because everyone has their own *reasonable* way of saying things or logical alternative solutions, which aren't "unreasonable", just different. As the number of quests grows over time, you won't be able to keep up with the number of alternative phrases, ensuring clear and concise dialog, and checking for spelling mistakes or any sort of bugs that can break a quest or put it in a loop.
A fairly popular MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" also started with a text-parser type of communication with NPCs. You had to guess and type the correct phrases for solving quests. Eventually they couldn't keep up with all the bugs and alternative phrases, not to mention that it was an *outdated* approach, so they had to change it to a menu-driven conversation tree. And that game is backed by a commercial company (Funcom)! If even a commercial development team with several people working on quests decided that a text-parser approach was outdated and they simply could not handle it, a single or a couple of quest writers on PlaneShift team certainly cannot.
It's almost guaranteed that you will eventually drive yourselves into a ground with so many quest related problems that you will try to rewrite the quest dialog system and NPC interaction into a menu-driven conversation tree, except it will be a lot harder to do then because you will have a lot more quests to keep up with. Do you want to learn it the hard way like Anarchy Online / Funcom did or the easy way by being smart now? If you set your egos aside for a moment, you will see that your quest system needs a serious make-over.
He does have a point there.
There's not much to hide. Type-in-response approach is a very ambitious project and the results will appear at a much slower pace than those of the dialogue list. It would be also absurd to assume that the PS approach can outdo the list one in every possible aspect. Different approaches have different advantages and disadvantages.
From what I understand, PS chose this method to limit the difference in conversing with PCs and NPCs. That's a reason to go with this approach.
However, functionality is certainly on the side of the drop down lists. With these, it's really easy to come up with an action-packed quest, even if it's based solely on dialogue. At least that's my opinion after playing a bit with the NWN editor. With the PS system and its (still limited) tools it's basically impossible to create an action-packed dialog. This isn't to say it's all because of the tools. Should those progress, creating more interesting dialogues would still require much more work from the quest writers. There are quite a few very ambitious ones out there, but I fear the time factor wouldn't allow them to use all the possibilities. Notably, it's really hard to avoid situation when player says a short line and the NPC makes an extremely long response. Anyone who digged into book-writing "etiquette" should know such long responses are a big no-no in the dialogues.
So it all comes down to this:
Conversing like with PCs - manual typing.
Functionality - dialogue lists.
I don't think this can be changed in any way.
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(...)isn't there more to Planeshift than just quests?
There sure is. In fact, since quests are barely roleplayable (at least as far as transmigrating them to the PC world), I'd say that they occupy a "placeholder" (I enjoyed the word) position right now. It's my current belief that they serve to have people more into PS, like the emphasis on fighting. It makes sense too, we do need players around, and what would most people do if they didn't go around fighting or doing errands for NPCs?
IFrom what I understand, PS chose this method to limit the difference in conversing with PCs and NPCs. That's a reason to go with this approach.
Considering the slow progress it must have (since it's a complex way of doing things, not even dared by the great money making industries out there) it will tale some time until this NPC contacting method actually limits the difference between conversing with PCs and NPCs.
I do admit that in a very far away future after years of work have been applied into the final quests, it will be a lot better than the drop down list. I'm talking some years after PS goes final.
In a side note, there are plenty of people looking into this. Obviously this NPC system will make their work difficult, and sometimes static, but we have nice stuff around already: it's possible to know what each NPC does, the relations between them and what they've done until now.
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ok.... i'm not the only one that got stumped there, except i don't think he took it from me... he just flat refused it. I tried several ways to give him 50 tria. Wondered if there was a typo... or some unmentiened detail....
I can't get angry, at least not yet, and not for real. I'm too new here! But i am rather ??? at this one.
Tomorrow's another day....
what a difference a day or 2 does..... tried one more thing i hadn't thought of...... *banghead icon* well one word changed it. ;D It's too bad it's a complaint forum.... because i didn't want to complain, just note that i too had trouble with that particular quest.
If things sometimes are running not-so-roundly, remember: :beta:
(or is it Alpha? gah.... time for bed!)
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Just sort of an update: just to see how disappointing these quests were, I did as many as a could. They were just fine, they were just like any other game, and anything in the quest I could not do/make myself I bought from someone else. Everything worked perfectly, and I found only a few bugs. So, I after the test, I don't think that they are any more upsetting than another game's quests.
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- Have you another unfinished quest? (Sure, many quests are impossible to finish)
Current number of quests that are impossible to finish (ie broken beyond ability to complete:)
Zero.
I think close, but no cigar. Yesterday a certain NPC wouldn't accept money from me for a fruit pie. p.s. great work on the large number of new quests, I enjoy doing them a lot.
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- Have you another unfinished quest? (Sure, many quests are impossible to finish)
Current number of quests that are impossible to finish (ie broken beyond ability to complete:)
Zero.
I think close, but no cigar. Yesterday a certain NPC wouldn't accept money from me for a fruit pie. p.s. great work on the large number of new quests, I enjoy doing them a lot.
If a quest has a bug and a GM is told about it, the bug most likely would get fixed in less then 24 hours then you have to wait for a server crash/reboot to apply the fix. but your bug is an ENGINE side bug that seems to be affecting many quests there is nothing settings [those that make the quests] can do to fix that till the engine team figures it out.
If a new quest is added ingame the setting devs tell the gms and they go and test the quest and report any and all bugs they find so that they can get fixed asap.
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drop down list are not forward thinking at all, and would anger more people than it pleased.
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Honestly speaking, I enjoy the quests. They have been the most obscure area of playing PS, and one of the most rewarding. I often make new characters and start running them through quests to see how they are working. I have seen drastic improvements since I started playing, both with the functionality, the number of quests, the details, et cetera. And the quests are a much more interactive way of learning the settings than just reading the books in the library. It took me a while to get the hang of the system, but once I was used to the way it worked all was well. Of course, I am a patient (and hopefully on topic) man... I'll shut up now, few ever agree with me anyway. *laughs*
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I agree that the quests are the most disappointing feature of PS. Instead of constantly making excuses, developers should at least be mature enough to admit it. Stop blaming the players every time they suggest that something needs improvement or a complete redesign. Accept your responsibility, if you hope to have any shred of professionalism. Accepting and learning from criticism should be a part of the job. If you can't handle it, then perhaps that job isn't for you.
It's the same criticism over and over again. And each person thinks they add something new, which they don't.
I have already mentioned in a different thread that many quests have a severe problem, with specific examples (without spoilers). It's likely that the problem is only going to grow and become worse until the developers can no longer handle it. While Jeraphon claims that there are multiple alternative phrases for all the quests, that is simply not true. Many have a very limited range of alternatives or no alternatives at all. I can provide a specific example but that would mean posting a spoiler. However, if someone ever claims that what I just said isn't true, I can prove them wrong. At that point, however, it would probably just turn into a "no, you are lying... no, you are lying" contest. That is another downfall of not posting "spoilers" and seems rather convenient for the devs to avoid embarrassment and responsibility. If people can't post detailed examples of exactly what seems badly written or broken, then devs can just keep being in denial.
I imagine the earlier quests do have limited phrases. Many of them probably need to be updated but, if Jera says that they have alternative phrases then, I'm willing to believe that. Talking to NPCs isn't like talking to Players, I know you've probably read up about the different phrases to use. (Err, I'm guessing you have.)
I used to play a lot of old text only adventure games, which are basically referred to as "text-parser" games, so I'm quite used to coming up with text phrases for solving quests and progressing.
"You are standing in front of a great fortress.... blah blah blah"
"What do you want to do?>..."
If any of those games had a very limited text-parser, the reviews would rip them apart.
PlaneShift has much more to worry about that these. And, we have systems to improve the text, though it is fairly new. Patience is a virtue.
Even if some quests do have alternative phrases as answers, they are simply very limited. A single quest writer *CANNOT* come up with enough combinations to cover every possible alternative that conveys the idea correctly. You cannot claim that you have every "reasonable" alternative because everyone has their own *reasonable* way of saying things or logical alternative solutions, which aren't "unreasonable", just different. As the number of quests grows over time, you won't be able to keep up with the number of alternative phrases, ensuring clear and concise dialog, and checking for spelling mistakes or any sort of bugs that can break a quest or put it in a loop.
It's not just one writer. So you needn't worry about this :) I do believe that's on the easily accessible settings devcast.
A fairly popular MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" also started with a text-parser type of communication with NPCs. You had to guess and type the correct phrases for solving quests. Eventually they couldn't keep up with all the bugs and alternative phrases, not to mention that it was an *outdated* approach, so they had to change it to a menu-driven conversation tree. And that game is backed by a commercial company (Funcom)! If even a commercial development team with several people working on quests decided that a text-parser approach was outdated and they simply could not handle it, a single or a couple of quest writers on PlaneShift team certainly cannot.
Anarchy Online (along with being a terrible game) was commercial and so started with a ton of players whereas PlaneShift starts with a low amount. Anarchy couldn't look into it because those players were paying and wanted the change or they would stop paying, PlaneShift doesn't suffer from this.
It's almost guaranteed that you will eventually drive yourselves into the ground with so many quest related problems that you will try to rewrite the quest dialog system and NPC interaction into a menu-driven conversation tree, except it will be a lot harder to do then because you will have a lot more quests to keep up with. Do you want to learn it the hard way like Anarchy Online / Funcom did or the easy way by being smart now? If you set your egos aside for a moment, you will see that your quest system needs a serious make-over.
If you are wondering how you can possibly create quests and puzzles, if they aren't text based, then take a look at how classic point-and-click adventure games do it (Sierra and Lucas Arts, among many) - combining items, picking correct choices from a conversation tree, using items on NPCs or on environment, manipulating environment etc. I don't advise dead-ends for non-optimal conversation tree choices but you could, for example, have alternative rewards in experience points, trias and items.
You can actually concentrate on adding more *fun* quests with this approach, instead of struggling with bugs and alternative phrases in existing ones.
PlaneShift, for better or worse, plans to keep using this system. Unlike Anarchy they have the time and the 'testers' to improve it. There will be grief for now but, in the end, if they get it done well, I'm sure it will create a more interesting world.
You seem to write quite well. I wonder if you'll ever actually contribute to the forums or just keep posting what has been said again and again.
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everybody seems to miss this one detail when it is suggested.
conversation trees are hard to write and write well. they are a lot more work. try writing one and you'll see what i mean.
the current system is simpler to write then convo-trees but is by no means easy. and allows for expansion a lot more then convo-trees.
besides the use of convo-trees will mean something alot worse then annoying players with the "guess the magic phrase game", because how do you use a convo-tree with another player? having to switch modes of communication like that commits the greatest sin of game building, breaking of the suspension of disbelief. having to switch modes like that reminds the player that it is a game, and not some other reality. if you can come up with a method that will allow both methods to exsist without reminding the player he or she is in a game then we might listen. till then you are debating with the wind and the wind will always win.
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conversation trees are hard to write and write well. they are a lot more work. try writing one and you'll see what i mean.
I tried both. Conversation trees are much faster, much more dynamic and provide much better forking possibilities. They also give much more justice to player characters, as you can input various forms of personalities, without wasting too much time (in fact, that's the whole point of "trees"). And I'm comparing sophisticated trees to simple-sentenced PS quests.
the current system is simpler to write then convo-trees but is by no means easy. and allows for expansion a lot more then convo-trees.
Conversation trees are supposed to stay in the typical storywriting pattern. To write PS quests, you need to develop new skills in conveying character information. Also, it allows more expansion, yes. Allows more expansion for a human? No.
besides the use of convo-trees will mean something alot worse then annoying players with the "guess the magic phrase game", because how do you use a convo-tree with another player? having to switch modes of communication like that commits the greatest sin of game building, breaking of the suspension of disbelief.
Valid, but subjective opinion.
having to switch modes like that reminds the player that it is a game, and not some other reality.
I find that to be a pretty healthy approach, actually. Seeing a game as alternative reality can cause unneeded grief and lack of distancing from the created characters.
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I like the way it is now because when you get frustrated with the NPCs you can curse them out, try that with a tree. Kind of feel sorry for whoever is looking at the bad response log though....
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I like the system as it is intended, it will provide for much more expansive interactions than a tree system.
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I like the way it is now because when you get frustrated with the NPCs you can curse them out, try that with a tree. Kind of feel sorry for whoever is looking at the bad response log though....
If you tell the female Enkidukai (I forget her name) in the center of the Hydlaa plaza to “Bite me” she will tell you to “Get lost!”
[edit] I lmao at this by the way, made me forget al about the pain of the quest... ;D
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It's not just one writer. So you needn't worry about this :) I do believe that's on the easily accessible settings devcast.
That is if you can sit through them....
AAAAAaaaannnnnddddd soooooooo Llllaaaaannnnnnnxxxxxx aaaannnnnddddd TTaaaaallllllaaaddd toooooooook foooorrrrrtttyyyy mmiiinnnnuuuuuutttteess tooooooo teeeeeellllllllllllllll aaaaaaaaa fffffiiiiivvvvveeeee mmmiiiiiiiinnnuuuuuttteeeee ssstooooooorrrryyyy.
Sorry if that offends anyone I just couldn't resist. I'm sure some people really enjoyed them but (honest truth) I thought they were actually a joke - someone making fun of PS in a good natured way. When I discovered they were serious... I was miffed. Probably me just being so overtly influenced by the Green Hornet and the radio Twilight Zone that I just didn't recognize a good voice play ;)
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For NPC conversations, why not just run the player text through a thesaurus function which converts each word to it's "canonical" form?
If you also have it strip out adjectives like "big", "red". "ancient", "silver", etc. then you'd probably take care of most variations in player input, barring bad english and spelling mistakes.
If that's not enough, write another function that returns a list of word types for a given sentence ("The red dog barked" becomes "the adjective noun verb(past)") and run that through a thesaurus like function to get an equivalent sentence.