Author Topic: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.  (Read 6944 times)

acraig

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1562
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2007, 10:25:01 pm »
I'd like to applegize ( sorry, inside joke )  to the settings team for how hard it is for them to work.   As Xillix has said they are doing the best they can with the current tools they have. 

Unfortunately, at the moment, the tools they have are barely passable to use.  It's like them trying to right a novel and they have a stub of a pencil and one piece of paper.   I think his secret plan is to get enough people together with enough pencils and bits of paper that it all comes together. :)

I know that I do what I can to help them work 'within the system' but we do need to spend some time to focus on those tools they need.   There are some project structural changes that are happening over the next few months (some already started ) that I hope will help increase our ability to have the server more stable which will allow more time spent on the tools that actually make the game fun to play.
----------
Andrew
"For all I know, she's lying, everyone's lying; welcome to the Internet"

Aerianna Kzin

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 118
  • We have come to teach...
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 04:09:30 am »
Quest guys: You are all doing a fantastic job, I have seen MANY inprovemnet in quests in the short time I have been playing, keep up the good work! I have even found a few mistakes in a few quests myself, and I always reported them back to you guys with a promt responce, so thanks again.  I think my favorite mistake I found was on the one quest with Chrosor's quest and somewhere you had to type his name but accdently in the quest his name was misspelled, and it was only so funny because Grroww (my in game husband) spent HOURS trying to Brado to undersand him and I run up and in no time flat because I did a typo and it right. he said something to the extent of, figures you get it with all your typos. it was just funny, I guess you had to be there. anways my main point: You guys are awsome!! \\o// :flowers:

Earl_Listbard

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 688
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2007, 04:36:12 am »
I'd like to applegize ( sorry, inside joke )  to the settings team for how hard it is for them to work.   As Xillix has said they are doing the best they can with the current tools they have. 

Unfortunately, at the moment, the tools they have are barely passable to use.  It's like them trying to right a novel and they have a stub of a pencil and one piece of paper.   I think his secret plan is to get enough people together with enough pencils and bits of paper that it all comes together. :)

I know that I do what I can to help them work 'within the system' but we do need to spend some time to focus on those tools they need.   There are some project structural changes that are happening over the next few months (some already started ) that I hope will help increase our ability to have the server more stable which will allow more time spent on the tools that actually make the game fun to play.

Indeed developing this game is no easy task, but I read in several places that there is no more need for funding... hence why we don't advertise, I constantly hear that donations are no longer nessasary. Yet the devs have insufficant tools? I respect that this is hard work and I've always believed that to be why developement takes a while, but I just can't bring myself to think that it is because of a lack of tools, or equipment... Isn't that covered by the funding?

Karyuu

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 9341
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 04:51:18 am »
It's no simple task to either find a tool that fits the need perfectly, or create it yourself - which is what has been happening most of the time. What acraig means is that Settings is sometimes restricted by engine capabilities or simply the unfinished PS code itself. Considering what is currently possible in the game, they don't have a lot to work with (including internal tools like the WC).
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Jeraphon

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 717
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2007, 04:57:25 am »
Note: the fact that you got it with your typo is a case of "do you see what you see?" It's not because there's a typo in the triggers. Always be careful to not make the assumption that the way you typed it exactly is the only way you're understood. :)

Aerianna Kzin

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 118
  • We have come to teach...
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2007, 09:00:46 am »
no I am pretty sure you had to tell brodo his name miss-spelled..its been fixed awhile..I was just saying a funny story about it is alll..
Honestly tho you guys are doing a great job!

acraig

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1562
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2007, 04:00:07 pm »
Indeed developing this game is no easy task, but I read in several places that there is no more need for funding... hence why we don't advertise, I constantly hear that donations are no longer nessasary. Yet the devs have insufficant tools? I respect that this is hard work and I've always believed that to be why developement takes a while, but I just can't bring myself to think that it is because of a lack of tools, or equipment... Isn't that covered by the funding?

This is based solely on the fact that the tools have not been written yet.  There is no silver bullet application out there that if we had it would magically solve anything.  It comes down to writing the tools ourselves to meet our need.  Again, the funding required to handle this would have to be significant and would probably end up being even more work for us to handle the paperwork.   

----------
Andrew
"For all I know, she's lying, everyone's lying; welcome to the Internet"

Jawn

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2007, 08:25:27 am »
I spent 45 minutes today trying to get 1 damn wooden sword from Gregori, and every time I give him 50 tria, he takes it, system says he doesn't need it, and I get nothing. (...) I'm doing everything right, (...).
ok.... i'm not the only one that got stumped there, except i don't think he took it from me... he just flat refused it. I tried several ways to give him 50 tria.  Wondered if there was a typo... or some unmentiened detail....

I can't get angry, at least not yet, and not for real. I'm too new here! But i am rather  ??? at this one.

Tomorrow's another day....

Tolol

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 110
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2007, 09:55:42 am »
well, I just can't resist to say something on this topic.

Since the winch came in Game I had only the quests done that were needed for my metallurgy knowledge.

The day quests were important for winch-access I started what I call my quest-marathon.

Sure, there have been some issues and I even complained about some things ... but now with a bunch of done quests on my list I can only say:

Good work !

Well, some of the running is quite a pity ... sure ... but as looking on it as a whole it is all working fine.  I do about 2 or 3 quests a week (because doing quests is not the whole thing  ;D ) and even with my short english I understand the NPC's and they understand me (most of the time)

well, saying that I still have no winch access  >o) ... I must say that the quest system is working pretty fine and it is, for this stage of the game, working well.

So please stop pulling things out of your nose to punch the devs for the quest-system

Tolol

just my 2 Tria


Valarion

  • Guest
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2007, 11:21:21 am »
I agree that the quests are the most disappointing feature of PS. Instead of constantly making excuses, developers should at least be mature enough to admit it. Stop blaming the players every time they suggest that something needs improvement or a complete redesign. Accept your responsibility, if you hope to have any shred of professionalism. Accepting and learning from criticism should be a part of the job. If you can't handle it, then perhaps that job isn't for you.

I have already mentioned in a different thread that many quests have a severe problem, with specific examples (without spoilers). It's likely that the problem is only going to grow and become worse until the developers can no longer handle it. While Jeraphon claims that there are multiple alternative phrases for all the quests, that is simply not true. Many have a very limited range of alternatives or no alternatives at all. I can provide a specific example but that would mean posting a spoiler. However, if someone ever claims that what I just said isn't true, I can prove them wrong. At that point, however, it would probably just turn into a "no, you are lying... no, you are lying" contest. That is another downfall of not posting "spoilers" and seems rather convenient for the devs to avoid embarrassment and responsibility. If people can't post detailed examples of exactly what seems badly written or broken, then devs can just keep being in denial.

I used to play a lot of old text only adventure games, which are basically referred to as "text-parser" games, so I'm quite used to coming up with text phrases for solving quests and progressing.

"You are standing in front of a great fortress.... blah blah blah"

"What do you want to do?>..."

If any of those games had a very limited text-parser, the reviews would rip them apart.

Even if some quests do have alternative phrases as answers, they are simply very limited. A single quest writer *CANNOT* come up with enough combinations to cover every possible alternative that conveys the idea correctly. You cannot claim that you have every "reasonable" alternative because everyone has their own *reasonable* way of saying things or logical alternative solutions, which aren't "unreasonable", just different. As the number of quests grows over time, you won't be able to keep up with the number of alternative phrases, ensuring clear and concise dialog, and checking for spelling mistakes or any sort of bugs that can break a quest or put it in a loop.

A fairly popular MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" also started with a text-parser type of communication with NPCs. You had to guess and type the correct phrases for solving quests. Eventually they couldn't keep up with all the bugs and alternative phrases, not to mention that it was an *outdated* approach, so they had to change it to a menu-driven conversation tree. And that game is backed by a commercial company (Funcom)! If even a commercial development team with several people working on quests decided that a text-parser approach was outdated and they simply could not handle it, a single or a couple of quest writers on PlaneShift team certainly cannot.

It's almost guaranteed that you will eventually drive yourselves into the ground with so many quest related problems that you will try to rewrite the quest dialog system and NPC interaction into a menu-driven conversation tree, except it will be a lot harder to do then because you will have a lot more quests to keep up with. Do you want to learn it the hard way like Anarchy Online / Funcom did or the easy way by being smart now? If you set your egos aside for a moment, you will see that your quest system needs a serious make-over.

If you are wondering how you can possibly create quests and puzzles, if they aren't text based, then take a look at how classic point-and-click adventure games do it (Sierra and Lucas Arts, among many) - combining items, picking correct choices from a conversation tree, using items on NPCs or on environment, manipulating environment etc. I don't advise dead-ends for non-optimal conversation tree choices but you could, for example, have alternative rewards in experience points, trias and items.

You can actually concentrate on adding more *fun* quests with this approach, instead of struggling with bugs and alternative phrases in existing ones.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 12:10:51 pm by Valarion »

Karyuu

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 9341
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2007, 11:37:13 am »
Why are you ignoring the fact that you can PM and email Jeraphon or Xillix with quest logs to get issues addressed and taken care of? Why do you ignore the fact that Jeraphon and Xillix check the badtext log constantly to see what phrases players use with NPCs and modify quests based not on what a single pair of eyes see, but hundreds? Why do you ignore the fact that they work tirelessly to make the experience easier and more fun for the players with every new quest? Why do you ignore threads like this?

Why do you choose to be such a complete pain in the ass with phrases like "shred of professionalism," "avoid responsibility," "keep being in denial," etc.? Please learn how to make posts that show respect as much as criticism, or you will be fully ignored by the people who you are trying to make listen to you. I guarantee it.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Rongar Elani

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 329
  • "post count +1" ~~Neko Kyouran
    • View Profile
    • Guild forums of 'The Awakened'
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2007, 11:44:33 am »
The quest system, or to be more exact, the npc dialogue system is not perfect yet, agreed. BUT, and I hope you people get this once and for all, the devs already know it. :) They are very much focussing on improving this part of the game, and you know what? There have been great improvements since I started playing. Instead of bitching at the devs for something, they are already aware of, you should just relax and let them do their job. And this is what they do, they ARE doing their job, or else the npc dialogue would still be at the same level it once was. And this is not the case. I was really surprised on how well the npc system evolved, and further improvements are about to come; just give it some time, the devs are no magicians. Neither do your rants help the development in any way, the opposite is true. The more you bitch at them, the more they are going to ignore you and to take down their effort in improving. Again, we all know that this part of the game is not perfect yet, but if you'd calm down some more and formulate your complaints more politely, you'd give a much better input to the whole thing, and input is related to output, remember that.

We're all in the same boat, so stop boring holes!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 11:57:05 am by Rongar Elani »

                                                           A w a k e n!

Draklar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2007, 12:12:42 pm »
Even if some quests do have alternative phrases as answers, they are simply very limited. A single quest writer *CANNOT* come up with enough combinations to cover every possible alternative that conveys the idea correctly. You cannot claim that you have every "reasonable" alternative because everyone has their own *reasonable* way of saying things or logical alternative solutions, which aren't "unreasonable", just different. As the number of quests grows over time, you won't be able to keep up with the number of alternative phrases, ensuring clear and concise dialog, and checking for spelling mistakes or any sort of bugs that can break a quest or put it in a loop.

A fairly popular MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" also started with a text-parser type of communication with NPCs. You had to guess and type the correct phrases for solving quests. Eventually they couldn't keep up with all the bugs and alternative phrases, not to mention that it was an *outdated* approach, so they had to change it to a menu-driven conversation tree. And that game is backed by a commercial company (Funcom)! If even a commercial development team with several people working on quests decided that a text-parser approach was outdated and they simply could not handle it, a single or a couple of quest writers on PlaneShift team certainly cannot.

It's almost guaranteed that you will eventually drive yourselves into a ground with so many quest related problems that you will try to rewrite the quest dialog system and NPC interaction into a menu-driven conversation tree, except it will be a lot harder to do then because you will have a lot more quests to keep up with. Do you want to learn it the hard way like Anarchy Online / Funcom did or the easy way by being smart now? If you set your egos aside for a moment, you will see that your quest system needs a serious make-over.
He does have a point there.
There's not much to hide. Type-in-response approach is a very ambitious project and the results will appear at a much slower pace than those of the dialogue list. It would be also absurd to assume that the PS approach can outdo the list one in every possible aspect. Different approaches have different advantages and disadvantages.
From what I understand, PS chose this method to limit the difference in conversing with PCs and NPCs. That's a reason to go with this approach.
However, functionality is certainly on the side of the drop down lists. With these, it's really easy to come up with an action-packed quest, even if it's based solely on dialogue. At least that's my opinion after playing a bit with the NWN editor. With the PS system and its (still limited) tools it's basically impossible to create an action-packed dialog. This isn't to say it's all because of the tools. Should those progress, creating more interesting dialogues would still require much more work from the quest writers. There are quite a few very ambitious ones out there, but I fear the time factor wouldn't allow them to use all the possibilities. Notably, it's really hard to avoid situation when player says a short line and the NPC makes an extremely long response. Anyone who digged into book-writing "etiquette" should know such long responses are a big no-no in the dialogues.

So it all comes down to this:
Conversing like with PCs - manual typing.
Functionality - dialogue lists.
I don't think this can be changed in any way.
AKA Skald

Sangwa

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2083
  • Chars: Morwen and Gartheiz
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2007, 12:32:59 pm »
(...)isn't there more to Planeshift than just quests?

There sure is. In fact, since quests are barely roleplayable (at least as far as transmigrating them to the PC world), I'd say that they occupy a "placeholder" (I enjoyed the word) position right now. It's my current belief that they serve to have people more into PS, like the emphasis on fighting. It makes sense too, we do need players around, and what would most people do if they didn't go around fighting or doing errands for NPCs?

I
From what I understand, PS chose this method to limit the difference in conversing with PCs and NPCs. That's a reason to go with this approach.

Considering the slow progress it must have (since it's a complex way of doing things, not even dared by the great money making industries out there) it will tale some time until this NPC contacting method actually limits the difference between conversing with PCs and NPCs.
I do admit that in a very far away future after years of work have been applied into the final quests, it will be a lot better than the drop down list. I'm talking some years after PS goes final.

In a side note, there are plenty of people looking into this. Obviously this NPC system will make their work difficult, and sometimes static, but we have nice stuff around already: it's possible to know what each NPC does, the relations between them and what they've done until now.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

Join the Dark Empire!

Jawn

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Quests. The most disappointing PS aspect.
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2007, 07:44:29 am »
ok.... i'm not the only one that got stumped there, except i don't think he took it from me... he just flat refused it. I tried several ways to give him 50 tria.  Wondered if there was a typo... or some unmentiened detail....

I can't get angry, at least not yet, and not for real. I'm too new here! But i am rather  ??? at this one.

Tomorrow's another day....


what a difference a day or 2 does..... tried one more thing i hadn't thought of...... *banghead icon* well one word changed it.  ;D It's too bad it's a complaint forum.... because i didn't want to complain, just note that i too had trouble with that particular quest.

If things sometimes are running not-so-roundly, remember:  :beta:

(or is it Alpha? gah.... time for bed!)

.