PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Zan on September 09, 2007, 07:32:08 pm
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*Disclaimer: This is going to be very sensitive content but I'm writing here only because I want to see things improve, not to start any attacks or immature whining.
To be honest I was rather disappointed by the way this auction was handled in-game. Since it got announced in the roleplaying board this time I assumed it would at least be some worthwhile event. Instead it turned out to be an amateuristic half IC/half OOC auction which could have been handled better in several aspects.
My main disappointment is that the GM's are supposed to give us all a good example when it comes to roleplaying but I've seen many player run auctions being handled much, much better than this one.
I'll make a list of things I personally would have done differently, hoping that it'll be read before this thread gets out of hand and hoping even harder that it will be remembered for the next time.
1. Provide some protection at least. This is an auction being held by the Vigesimi's son, in which there will be biddings for millions of tria. Obviously the gathered crowd has huge amounts of money on them but all I spotted was one single guard. Would it have been that hard to either move the auction to a more secured place or at least spawn some NPC guards in the vicinity? I was surprised it didn't turn into a bloodbath right away, knowing the amount of criminals that roams around in the city.
2. Interact with the rest of the players. I've seen players who were discontent (for reasons that are included in this post as well as others) have their characters throw rotten fruit at the auctioneer, others shouted their discontent publically but all in a decent roleplaying fashion. They were simply ignored until it got too bad, when the guard present gave them a warning. Personally I would have called the guards, cancelled the auction and arrested anyone I'd even suspect of trouble when someone threw rotten tomatoes at my head.
I know that a big event like this isn't easy to handle and it's not so obvious that we can take everything into account but I feel that there was a lot ignored which harmed the feeling of immersion and roleplaying atmosphere.
3. Why do we have an auction channel? The entire auction happened in shouts and apparently according to lag a large part of it was lost in between the casual chat. We have separate tabs to keep these things apart. I don't understand why they weren't used. If you want to argue for realism sake, then I have to disagree. My brain allows me to concentrate on a specific source of sound and drown out all background chatter easily. I see the separate tabs as a similar mechanic.
4. Talad wanting to be at his own auction I can definitely understand but the way he did it was rather confusing and again harmed the roleplaying atmosphere. For starters a character with the name Talad Priest is not only directly against the naming policy but considering that only the first name shows up in chat, it made me think that Talad himself came down among the mortals to speak his mind. Interfering with the auction in a clearly OOC manner in main chat without bothering to use brackets afterwards didn't quite help either. I can understand that the urgency made him ignore his own guidelines but still ... I wonder if it couldn't have been handled better?
I would have prefered it if Talad took control over another character that was more in place or watched and orchestrated everything from behind the scenes. I know he is very busy with the creation of this game and he has done a great job so far. But I always thought of Talad as an advocate of roleplay and what I've seen in this event was anything but advocating good roleplay.
... after this I left the auction but from what I understood a lot of players planned an IC revolt against the way these auctions are handled.
Personally I disagree with trying to handle an OOC problem IC and chose to come here to voice my issues. I wish I also had something positive to say about this event but to be honest, it was one of the worser auctions I attended. However I hope that my criticism won't be a cause to give up and instead helps towards making the next events better. We're all learning here and I'm certain that some people underestimate the difficulties of organizing something like this, especially when you have a lot of work waiting on you.
I'll try to be at the next one and hopefully I'll enjoy it more then.
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though the values paid for the houses only goes to show that there is far too much tria in circulation. i was hearing values of 16.6 million for the pair. and i doubt that it trained out the coffers of those that bought them.
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2. Interact with the rest of the players. I've seen players who were discontent (for reasons that are included in this post as well as others) have their characters throw rotten fruit at the auctioneer, others shouted their discontent publically but all in a decent roleplaying fashion. They were simply ignored until it got too bad, when the guard present gave them a warning. Personally I would have called the guards, cancelled the auction and arrested anyone I'd even suspect of trouble when someone threw rotten tomatoes at my head.
I know that a big event like this isn't easy to handle and it's not so obvious that we can take everything into account but I feel that there was a lot ignored which harmed the feeling of immersion and roleplaying atmosphere.
I agree completely with point 1 and 4, though I don't believe 4 matters much but, I disagree with point 3, the auction tab is simply there to make it easier for players to sell items day to day. So that they don't have to start auctions every few hours. I liked seeing it in /shout more, gave a more realistic feel, in my opinion. But again, that's just my opinion.
Your second point I find the most interesting. I agree with what you said but, would like to expand on it. Those that went against the law should be punished. Assaults on the Vigesimi should surely be true death, as with on his guard. Though, I don't expect to see these carried out, I would like to see some form of punishment. A fine, perhaps?
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Both houses were sold for 7 million. The second one to the Felines Lair so they got what they wanted. Despite that some players are revolting against the Vigesimi right now. Quite funny.
And I agree with your points, Zan.
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I agree there were a number of issues I disliked, some of which you mentioned, the ammount people were betting bugged me too, as it only went so high because these are the first few houses to be sold in terms of gameplay so OOC issues are increasing the price. But interms of IC there have always been houses sold off and is nothing new to our characters. People should be thinking what would "their character" pay for this house not because THEY want it. Then again you could counter argue it that the two houses in question were very very rich houses, gold decorations in it.
But the auctioneer didn't really say anything about the homes. Then again even if he had said the house is in poor condition and needs alot of repair, people would still bet their millions.
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I frankly feel put off that you would take issue.
I did Roleplay
I did address the hecklers.
I did tell the history of the houses and why they were being sold.
order was maintained.
The event was IC
The time i put into this now feels wasted so thank you for your wonderful unsolicited critique.
Players, who have unlimited time could probably do a better auction, np with that.
I will do no more work on ps this day.
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But the auctioneer didn't really say anything about the homes. Then again even if he had said the house is in poor condition and needs alot of repair, people would still bet their millions.
There was quite a bit of "This house is worth more", "The value of the house is higher" so I wouldn't say that.
And thought the devs didn't put on the -perfect- auction. As I agreed to earlier. It was well done and if anybody made it disappointing, it would be the players who seem to have completely neglected the settings and decided "I want to be outraged".
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2. Interact with the rest of the players. I've seen players who were discontent (for reasons that are included in this post as well as others) have their characters throw rotten fruit at the auctioneer, others shouted their discontent publically but all in a decent roleplaying fashion. They were simply ignored until it got too bad, when the guard present gave them a warning. Personally I would have called the guards, cancelled the auction and arrested anyone I'd even suspect of trouble when someone threw rotten tomatoes at my head.
I know that a big event like this isn't easy to handle and it's not so obvious that we can take everything into account but I feel that there was a lot ignored which harmed the feeling of immersion and roleplaying atmosphere.
As far as the fruit goes: When players godmode like that, I don't think they have the right to expect recognition. You can't do something to someone else's character without their consent, whether it's dueling them, stomping on their feet, punching them in the face, spitting on them, or throwing rotten fruit at them.
4. Talad wanting to be at his own auction I can definitely understand but the way he did it was rather confusing and again harmed the roleplaying atmosphere. For starters a character with the name Talad Priest is not only directly against the naming policy but considering that only the first name shows up in chat, it made me think that Talad himself came down among the mortals to speak his mind. Interfering with the auction in a clearly OOC manner in main chat without bothering to use brackets afterwards didn't quite help either. I can understand that the urgency made him ignore his own guidelines but still ... I wonder if it couldn't have been handled better?
You have to remember that Talad comes from the "old guard" of the dev team. They did things differently 'back in the day'.
I frankly feel put off that you would take issue.
I know that you're a volounteer and so it's not unexpected for you to feel resentment from time to time, but this is why the forums are here. To give you feedback. To help you do what you do better and to provide you with new ways of looking at things. To be blunt, I think it's inappropriate for you to express such feelings here.
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I'm sorry you feel offended Xillix, I did my best not to offend anyone.
The time put into this whole thing was definitely not a waste, it was a learning experience and I wrote this in the hope to add to the learning experience.
I also agree with Waylander that a lot of players themselves put on a very disappointing performance. Both the bids and the reason for 'revolting' were based on OOC foundations. Asking the players to roleplay better is something I try all the time but it rarely rubs off. I definitely don't expect anyone to listen to me when they're being blinded by such a grand prize. The whole situation is just OOC, which is without doubt the reason why making it into an IC event is so hard. The huge stress that the server was put under with this event didn't help either, clearly a lot of words were lost due to lag and controling the situation completely was probably impossible for the few Devs/GMs involved.
Xillix, I hope you can come back here in a few days after everyone's tempers have calmed and read this as the advice I wanted to give.
Zanzi, I'm not sure what happened after I left but while I was there I saw no godmodding ... the worst I saw was "/me throws a rotten tomato towards the auctioneer". If that's godmodding then I'm at a loss here. Nobody said anything about hitting them in the face or whatever, all they did was throw, something any normal person can do. If they actually went further than that and started telling the consequences of their attempts as well then I agree completely, it's out of line and should be ignored.
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I frankly feel put off that you would take issue.
I did Roleplay
I did address the hecklers.
I did tell the history of the houses and why they were being sold.
order was maintained.
The event was IC
The time i put into this now feels wasted so thank you for your wonderful unsolicited critique.
Players, who have unlimited time could probably do a better auction, np with that.
I will do no more work on ps this day.
so hard words during your birthday :'( :'( :'( how the players are rude with you :'(
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zanzi, to be blunt you can kiss my :oops:
Zan your points are not lost on me, but much of what you said was just untrue. As noted.
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I admit I am responsible for some of the bad behaviour from the player side. I even admit godmodding. Yes, I did godmod. But that was after Donari was lifted in the air by some "spell" and fell to the ground and died. Now, since murder is nothing a guard of the vigesimi would commit, I decided to do it like them. I started to godmod as well. I know this is no excuse, and I am ashamed of my bad roleplay. I better should not roleplay if I am pissed off with something... I especially feel sorry for Xillix, since it is his birthday.
However, the little "revolt" was, in my opinion, correct. I'd like to quote a phrase:
"We make reality, and in our reality, Felines Lair owns that house"
Felines Lair roleplayed to own that house, and no one said anything against it. They put much of their time into the roleplay concerning the ownership of this house. They did NOT, as the vigesimi's son claimed, rent that house and their landlord died. In the eyes of any character that knows that Felines Lair owns this house, this can not be right, even though the law is on side of the vigesimi. So we decided to speak out against the vigesimi. However, the reaction of the Devs was more then inappropriate. Killing someone that speaks out against the vigesimi? I do not think that was good roleplay. Yes, I know that "You can not claim to own a house officially.". Houses are supposed to be tested, so why can't they be tested for free? It would not have been so difficult to hand Felines Lair a set of keys, without an auction. It would have been a loss to the roleplaying community if Felines Lair lost their guildhouse, which they roleplayed to own for quite a bit.
Sorry again for my behaviour.
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It's really nothing to worry about. Both houses that guilds have RPed ownership of they have retained that. You have to understand that because the players accepted this ownership that their characters would h ave seen the people trying to turf the guilds out as forces of evil. Now, what would have been nice is if the Devs had talked to the guilds in question and came up with a good reason why and auction would take place, and I'm sure the guilds would have collaborated because its only a game, right?
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The roleplay community would have survived and giving them the house would:
1) Show favoritism, it would. You may not have complained but, many of the community would have.
2) Wouldn't have addressed the millions of tria too many in the community. Granted, this has probably made more players collect tria but, it's more evenly dispersed.
PS: Was going to edit my yoda talk there in point 1 but I rather like it.
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Sounds like a lot of stuff happened...almost wish I could be there.
I can't really comment on anything specific without telling one person's side of the story (which every well may be a lie) so I'll just say this. If the players revolted against the Vigesmi's son (or whoever it was) thats IC if they had the right reason. Maybe something along the lines of
"First they try to sell Lolitra's home now the one which belongs to Felines Lair! This is an outrage! I don't care what they say happened its not right without giving them the chance to pay for it first!"
Something like that would be appropriate IC justification, at least in my mind. Don't know what their IC justification was. As for the parts about them ignoring the thrown rotten fruits they could have missed the message from the lag. Maybe they responded but you missed their message. Maybe they assumed you missed but didn't type a message back. Maybe there was some god modding so they decided to ignore. There's to many possibilities of what could have happened for their to be a point of arguing about it.
As for that spell put on you Donari its nothing new....I've played in a few GM events, usually as an evil character trying to do anything to get the gm's to fail at their plot. They've done worst to me for fighting agaisnt them....Secondly if you did threaten goverment as mentioned before some kind of IC action would have to be taken. In that case the killing of a citizen was the action. Because the guard is a goverment official and you tried to harm an important member of the goverment it makes sense that your punishment would be harsh.
It would have been a loss to the roleplaying community if Felines Lair lost their guildhouse, which they roleplayed to own for quite a bit.
Out of many things I think I disagree with this point the most. I did when people felt the same about Lolitra losing her house. Its not a loss to the roleplaying community. Its a chance to build. If Felines Lair just decided to give up because they ICly lost their home then it would be a total loss. However if instead they were to take IC action, I think it would only make a greater role play. I personally think it would be intresting to see how their characters, and even guild might change because of an IC action by the goverment. The fact is, this is supposed to be a world. Bad things happen as well as good things. However many people always want everything to have a happy ending, to work the way they want it and the way its always worked. That's not the way things should go. It only restricts rp when you refuse to allow change and get mad oocly when change occurs.
In the end I'm sure a lot of things could have gone better overall for this auction. I think that an auction for the houses may not be the best way currently. However I'm guessing many of the players acted just like they did during the previous auction which also does not help things. If you want it to get better you have to work with the devs, not against them :P . Not saying anyone did work against them but it sounds like not everyone was trying to help....As I said I wasn't there so I really can't comment.
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Just touching this: "2) Wouldn't have addressed the millions of tria too many in the community. Granted, this has probably made more players collect tria but, it's more evenly dispersed". It was badly done from the beginning. They gave us a source that pumped million of trias into the economy, then made it stop as they realized it was badly done and instead of recurring to a wipe to balance things before auctioning houses, simply did it. Saying that this is a way to simply put off the millions of trias that got into the economy is forgetting the means to reach an objective, which is all the more worst when you're just "patching things", instead of actually taking care of them.
I've been to a GM-oriented event that was quite fun, back then I actually wished for more gm-intervention. This one suffered a bit from the "upper people" (devs, gms...), but suffered mostly (in my opinion) because of the outrageous prices - that was what put me off. I just hope that the time in which in-game economy and settings economy become united comes sooner then not.
I'm glad the Felines Lair got their house, congratulations to them, another victory for our society that only has itself to thank.
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Zanzi, I'm not sure what happened after I left but while I was there I saw no godmodding ... the worst I saw was "/me throws a rotten tomato towards the auctioneer". If that's godmodding then I'm at a loss here. Nobody said anything about hitting them in the face or whatever, all they did was throw, something any normal person can do. If they actually went further than that and started telling the consequences of their attempts as well then I agree completely, it's out of line and should be ignored.
I can agree with that.
zanzi, to be blunt you can kiss my :oops:
To be blunt, you need to learn some humility. One of the sacrifices you make as a leader is that you can't always let out your knee-jerk reactions.
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I saw no bad roleplaying from Xillix, even though I wished that he would've struck down some of the trouble makers ;)
Talad Priest, however, was talking OOC in main chat without brackets and used a lot of smilies. I frowned at it, but I can imagine some of the more die-hard roleplayers got aggravated.
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I thought I might throw in my two cents.
Felines Lair has always strived to be a guild of exceptional roleplayers - i.e we try to set examples.
The house in question we had roleplayed as being ours for some time. Ask any member, there's a bar downstairs in the commons, the roof sometimes leaks in the rain and there is a dusty library scattered with Mordon's books.
When we heard that it was our house that was to be auctioned, the guild as a whole was mortified. Shurrim said it best, that RP'ers cannot come up with the funds that PL'ers have. It's true. During the auction as we watched the prices climb I was frantically calling in favours and pledges. To our guild, it was our home, and even though seven million trias is an insane amount of money, to the guild it was worth every coin.
Don't think that FL has many more millions to spare. The house has all but bankrupted the guild. Ayshe herself gave her last coin, and Hassadria has a long list of people we owe vast sums to. We will all be mining the rest of our natural lives.
Personally, the roleplay aspect of the auction would always be difficult to do, but I think it was handled very well. I was especially touched that the auctioneer mentioned our guild by name when they spoke of how the house came to be auctioned.
Our little family came together and we were desperate, begging people not to bid during the auction. As a roleplay event, we all felt for real this sense of urgency and impending loss. I am glad that the house was not given to us, and instead we all had to go into debt for many millions to afford the house. Is that not more like what would actually happen, had our kin been threatened with eviction?
I thank those who also roleplayed the event with us, especially those who rallied to our aid, both with voice and with coin.
Had we more than ten keys, I am sure you'd all be invited to the party :)
I just hope to Gods the furniture is a little less expensive... :D
- Ayshe
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Well I missed this event, doesn't matter to me. I myself have thrown the odd fish (during the shields event) but then I am a little iconoclastic and might well have done so again. I feel that the GM's have bent over backwards to acknowledge previous roleplay, as far as I am concerned you could role play ownership of anything you want but until now you have been squatters. It is kind of odd that those who pretended to have ownership should actually get it isn't it? I wonder if a log of the event could be linked so that those who missed it can actually see what went on.
Perhaps they should have sold off buildings that nobody had claimed if there are any, certainly they will likely all get snapped up in role-play as it appears claims ultimately get acknowledged.
One thing that occurs to me is that it might be more manageable in the future to have only guild leaders in attendance (if only guilds are allowed to be owners that is) and that otherwise you brings what money you can gather to the auction and cannot bid more than you have. Some wheeling and dealing could occur on the auction house floor where guilds can pool their money for a share of the keys. If unguilded people can have ownership then perhaps make the entry fee to the auction 5 times the reserve bid.
I think in any kind of public auction the bidders would have to register and buy a letter of credit, no-one else should be allowed to bid and the rabble be relegated to the cheap seats. Unsuccessful bidders would of course be allowed to redeem their letters of credit at the end of the auction. Keys would be handed out on the basis of the letters of credit that are turned in for the winning bid such that if there are 10 keys and guild A has 50% of the value, guild B 30% and guild C 20% the keys would be handed out at 5, 3 and 2 respectively. If these guild leaders so chose they could trade their keys for other compensation such as reimbursement of their contribution or alliance in a war or whatever the parties agree to.
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@Ayshe: You were godmoding, so you don't have much grounds for complaint in my book. Sorry.
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Thats enough personal attacks I've read and re-read Ayshe's post several times now but fail to see a direct complaint, if anything the opposite
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I will be interested to hear what you think were my OOC phrases during the auction. All I said during the auction was:
- to overlook with divination powers on the bidders, and check their purses
- warn people there will be other auctions, so it's unreasonable to have such bid bids
- ask some bidders why they wanted a particular house.
All the above was IC, not much roleplayed due to the need to check the database, but still IC.
About my char name "Talad Priest" it's quite evident he is not a normal priest, if it's the incarnation of Talad himself or not no one knows, but surely he has some great powers. Choosing another char name could be possible, but will not spread the name of Talad enough, so he is just known as Talad Priest.
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@Ayshe: You were godmoding, so you don't have much grounds for complaint in my book. Sorry.
What's godmoding?
And um, I wasn't complaining - I was pleased with the outcome. Do you read before you post?
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godmodding: can be loosely considered any form of action that you as the player do to have your character force your will onto another's character. as example, stating " /me stabs [insert name here] and watches as they die at my feet" would be godmodding.
what zanzi is trying to state is that by you RPing that you and your guild were owners of that particular house were essentially godmodding by forcing everyone else to RP that you owned that house, when in reality, before the auction at least, you did not have permission from the settings team to claim you owned the house. not until an official body such as the settings team gives someone the ok, in this case through IC auction, does someone own any house IG.
as for me, meh, whats done is done, and everyone should just move on. enjoy your new house. :)
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what zanzi is trying to state is that by you RPing that you and your guild were owners of that particular house were essentially godmodding by forcing everyone else to RP that you owned that house
Ah, gotcha.
I don't contest that claim, certainly. And in nearly every respect, one guild saying they arbitrarily own something is unfair. But consider this, how many houses are ingame? We didn't choose that one to be auctioned, a dev did. Somewhere along the line, someone became aware that that particular house was being "squatted" in by a guild, either before or after they decided it was to be made a guildhouse. Of all the hundreds. Had they chosen the one next to it, or any other house, FL would have not made a squeak.
What does that say? Were we to completely change our roleplay history and retrofit every story centered on the house? There are many houses in game. Are we to believe they are all empty? Please. Someone chose that house deliberately. What better way to get interest than choose something that someone values. Valued because we 'godmoded' it.
I would love to hear the dev rationale for choosing the three houses so far auctioned; I have a feeling they are done so so that people who want to own specific buildings can own buildings. They have value because the community values them.
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I always thought it was clearly stated on the forums that while roleplayers were free to pretend any building was their home, this could only last until the settings decided otherwise. That's why I find the main reason for revolting to be based on OOC problems. No player, no matter how good of a roleplayer they are, could have had a house with official approval ... that is up until now. However this whole 'revolt', no matter how unfounded it is, does show us one thing. The way houses are auction off does not really enhance roleplay. Instead it pushes people to grind away in gold mines or at least favors those who spend their whole time doing that. Sure it might be an original idea to get some tria out of the economy without wiping everything but I'd say it's also backfiring. I do not quite see roleplay being encouraged by this, except for on the auctions themselves perhaps.
Xillix, first of all .. sorry for ruining your birthday. I honestly didn't know it was your birthday, heck I didn't even know it was you leading the auction. I don't claim that what I wrote is the truth, it's just how I honestly saw things. Like I said I didn't stick around after the first house was auctioned off and most likely technical problems with the server not being able to handle all those people chatting, let me and many others miss out on a lot of what should have been said ... I'm sure that some of my issues would have disappeared if I could have seen it all.
Talad, I don't want to argue with you about what you said. Whether it was IC or OOC is something that can be argued from both sides. I just had the feeling that the moment you got involved the roleplaying atmosphere was broken for me. That was my opinion at the time .. and again, had I stuck around longer perhaps that opinion could have turned around.
I guess my lesson is that I should stick around for the entire event before giving criticism on it.
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Ayshe- the choice of houses was done aesthetically and at RANDOM
The exact thing occurred when we randomly chose the RoHP's house.
Zan- I was a bit tired when I first posted (and i worked on ps most of the day anyway ;) ).
Zanzibar- You trying to teach humility is like an illiterate beggar teaching classic Japanese literature at Harvard.
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Well I was only at the second acution that got cancled (second meaning after the RHoP but it got cancled and never happend) but my only issue was none of my char's have even had 100k for very long if even that, so I knew I was out of luck as far as the auction was concerned. So I looked forward to the event as a great roleplay experience. My char, being an outlaw and wanting to cause trouble, and earn a bit of tria, tried to rob a few people. Serpot (sp? sorry) did very well in saying he had no tria, even though my char did not really belive him she gave up and moved on as the acution people moved to harns, then to landing. There She spotted Talad Preist, a very rich looking Kran...I was a little dissapointed in the fact that I atemtped a few times to pickpocket him for a few circles and was completely ignored. But I moved on..it was not that big of deal, I fully understand that he was very busy with other stuff and whatever and so I am not mad.
What bugs me the most is the amount of whining.....I *knew* weather or not FL got the house there would still be whining...rember people YOU CAN"T PLEASE EVERYONE! All the settings team is trying to do is create a fun game for us all to enjoy and play, You think people that have a natural disaster such as a tornado take thier house and all thier belongings from them can sit back and say "no God you can't do that, I've been living in this house for X amount of years" No people pick up the peices and they move on with what they have, greatfull they still have the most important thing, eachother.
I guess I have nothing more to say. Oh wait yes I do...Devs, GM's, Settings team, whoever else who has ever contrubited to this game that is still in the process of being made: you are all doing a great job, I hvae enjoyed seeing all the changes and the improvemnts, not always the steps back but I have delt with it and moved on, I guess it makes things more realisitc in the long run. anyways keep up the good work, it really is alot of fun to play Planeshift, and I really enjoy the roleplay atmosphre. The only complaint I have agisnst you is, you need to be carefull what you say, not matter how upset you may be, you represent this game, you are there to troubleshoot and help the players with game issues as well, and it turns the players away when they are told to "go to hell" by a settings team meber when they have an issue. Each indiviadual player does not know how hard your day has been or how many complaints you have gotten in the last hour. And on the same aspect the players need to think about that when complaining and maybe try to ask for help and not complain and atcak the settings team. I don't think it would hurt any of us to learn some niceness... You catch more flys with honey than vinagar...or something like that...anyways. think before you speak everyone, then we all can enjoy a better experience.
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I only can say one thing to those who complain that they got ignored...well, in fact a couple of points on that:
Chances are, that the massive lag has eaten up messages
Chances are, that a crowd of 10, 20, 30 or more all want the attention of one or two persons during an event. and chances are that the latter mentioned persons are humans and not robots, therefor: they cannot reply to each person of the crowd at the same time, messages get lost in the crowd and whatnotever. You think you have to complain about it? even whine about it? I suggest you to set up a big event once to see how it is when a big crowd is all talking to you at the same time, I would like to see you to satisfact every of them with replies and still do the event as planned. I would like to see you fail on that, just because that you will then understand how hard it is.
I haven't been there at the auction, so I won't dare to make comments on any of the happenings there, but as a general hint: try to think how it is for the other person, try to even imagine how hard it is to set up an event....have i forgotten anything? Oh well, feel free to throw your comments at me :)
But remember this before doing so:
I don't think it would hurt any of us to learn some niceness... You catch more flys with honey than vinagar...or something like that...anyways. think before you speak everyone, then we all can enjoy a better experience.
greetings,
Cebot
PS: @ izzy: very well said
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I've noticed that a lot with GM events. Three GMs will walk into the tavern and have a conversation. You might realistically expect up to four people to overhear it and offer their help given the scope of the quest and the location, but it always turns into 30-40, and each of those players is intent on sharing their life story with the GMs. I think it's an argument in favour of having multiple GM events happen at the same time and in different locations, thus forcing the playerbase to divide among them.
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I will be interested to hear what you think were my OOC phrases during the auction. All I said during the auction was:
- to overlook with divination powers on the bidders, and check their purses
- warn people there will be other auctions, so it's unreasonable to have such bid bids
- ask some bidders why they wanted a particular house.
All the above was IC, not much roleplayed due to the need to check the database, but still IC.
About my char name "Talad Priest" it's quite evident he is not a normal priest, if it's the incarnation of Talad himself or not no one knows, but surely he has some great powers. Choosing another char name could be possible, but will not spread the name of Talad enough, so he is just known as Talad Priest.
To me it was the usage of smilies. And you forgot brackets one time.
(22:20:00) Talad says: please DONT move all together toward it though :)
(22:21:32) Talad says: ehmm... the idea was not to gather here :)
(22:21:40) Talad says: ok, np, now you are all here :)
(18:47:45) Talad says: Merchyryr be smoother! ;)
(18:55:15) Talad says: please /sit
(19:13:49) Talad says: Raistlyin I think you can now only if you can spare 1 million trias :)
(19:20:49) Talad shouts: ah ah, ok. still lot of money. :)
(19:32:52) Talad says: let's hope the high bidders finished their money! :)
It was fine, just try to keep down on the :)
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I think it's an argument in favour of having multiple GM events happen at the same time and in different locations, thus forcing the playerbase to divide among them.
I'm guessing the time it takes to make a gm event happen plus the work other gms have do do limits that. In other words it will be harder to get more than one gm event running at once because I'm guessing there would be a limit on the number of gm's that would be available. Plus I'd bet that if you hard 3 events running at once at least one of them would end up being ignored, wasting the time spent to organize the event in the first place.
I do think its a good idea but I doubt it would be very easy to accomplish.
One idea is to hold events in places where not to many players are always found. For example instead of going to Harnquist's all the time try standing with raithen in BD. But as I said the only problem is it limits the amount of players that might show up period and in the end might become a waste of time.
I would say players should try and resist coming to gm events so much (probably the best idea) but I doubt many would try regardless....
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It was fine, just try to keep down on the :)
Some other things I like to avoid is bad punctuation and capitalization, and I try to spell out numbers (one instead of 1).
I'm guessing the time it takes to make a gm event happen plus the work other gms have do do limits that. In other words it will be harder to get more than one gm event running at once because I'm guessing there would be a limit on the number of gm's that would be available. Plus I'd bet that if you hard 3 events running at once at least one of them would end up being ignored, wasting the time spent to organize the event in the first place.
I do think its a good idea but I doubt it would be very easy to accomplish.
One idea is to hold events in places where not to many players are always found. For example instead of going to Harnquist's all the time try standing with raithen in BD. But as I said the only problem is it limits the amount of players that might show up period and in the end might become a waste of time.
I would say players should try and resist coming to gm events so much (probably the best idea) but I doubt many would try regardless....
What ultimately needs to happen is the creation of a dedicated group of event managers. These individuals will have an outstanding understanding of the settings and how to run successful events, and they will have the freedom to run events and give quests whenever they please. Their way of playing Planeshift will be to go in game and run events - some very large and coordinated with other event managers, while most operating on a small scale and only involving a small number of players.
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I would think a good way is to have a sign-up sheet on the forums, accept only so many per event and put the rest on a waiting list. It would be a little OOC, I suppose, and might entail some people missing an event that would suit their character and being assigned the next which didn't but thems the breaks.
Before anyone starts telling me how much this would suck, let me just say that it would take a lot more thought than I put in to it, to make it into something that might actually work. It is merely a germ of an idea that will likely die due to too much fertilizer.
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I would think a good way is to have a sign-up sheet on the forums, accept only so many per event and put the rest on a waiting list.
Too much structure. It would kill any chance of sponteniety and realism. It would turn roleplaying into play-acting.
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I think it's an argument in favour of having multiple GM events happen at the same time and in different locations, thus forcing the playerbase to divide among them.
Or make the rewards a bit less appealing. I bet you'll see a huge drop in participants if they know there isn't some one of a kind item at the end.
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I think it's an argument in favour of having multiple GM events happen at the same time and in different locations, thus forcing the playerbase to divide among them.
Or make the rewards a bit less appealing. I bet you'll see a huge drop in participants if they know there isn't some one of a kind item at the end.
I agree. Perhaps there should be no reward whatsoever. That way, people will only participate because it's in the nature of their characters.
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Is this about the guildhouse auctions or gm events in general? :offtopic:
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Is this about the guildhouse auctions or gm events in general? :offtopic:
Threads evolve, but you're capable of splitting the thread into two smaller ones if it bothers you so much.
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My 0.02€:
The way of the Hammer guild organized auctions and tournaments like warriors and warlocks in the past. And there are a lot of things that you don't see if you are not part of the organization team. There will come several /tell per minute and everyone wants to know/do something from you, you have to keep track of main channel, guild channel, group channel and the biddings and I don't know what Talad else had to do during the event with his GM powers ( e.g. check biddings for validity). I can fully understand, when he makes typos during the heat of the battle.
And compared to our events this event was really troublesome, the people who organized it deserve our respect. So please people, when an GM or Talad will make an typo during an event or an auction, just imagine the stress he is under and show forgiveness. They did a lot of work and gave their best to deliver an enjoyable event. If I were in his situation I would not have considered punctuation and capitalization anymore. Its simply not the same as here in the forum or during a roleplay with some other players. This is realtime typing.
Kind regards
Zwenze
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If I were in his situation I would not have considered punctuation and capitalization anymore. Its simply not the same as here in the forum or during a roleplay with some other players. This is realtime typing.
Right, because it's much too difficult to bother with correct punctuation when you're typing in real time. ::)
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I agree. Perhaps there should be no reward whatsoever. That way, people will only participate because it's in the nature of their characters.
RPG has gone through so many changes... From characters that go on adventures for the promissed riches to characters that have in their nature participating when there is "no reward whatsoever"... Neat.
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I'm not sure I understand your post.
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If I were in his situation I would not have considered punctuation and capitalization anymore. Its simply not the same as here in the forum or during a roleplay with some other players. This is realtime typing.
Right, because it's much too difficult to bother with correct punctuation when you're typing in real time. ::)
I forget punctuation when typing in french all the time. I don't believe Talad's first language is English and so, it would be silly to expect him to type perfectly, especially in real time.
Besides, it's not like it's much too difficult to understand what the player is saying, even with incorrect punctuation. ::)
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It's not about how easy it is to understand.
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To that end its more about maintaining a degree of professionalism.
Really, I don't want to get into debates about this, I always end up roped in near the end, thinking I have something useful to contribute, but the way statements of dissatisfaction are regarded these days I'm not sure there is any point. Kudos to Zan for standing up and making a statement in the face of such a difficult crowd :) Whether his points were right or wrong he did it the correct way and politely in my opinion. His points were well stated and explained. This is far better than the usual "MonS3R$ d0n't give enourh XP U d3vz suk!" and as such I think the replies should have all taken as much care to be professional and courteous.
I know now that Xillix was tired with that first post but to me that is a good example of how such a response should not be carried out. Doing settings work myself now (Scary thought I know) I understand a bit more that perspective. Its difficult when you put effort into something, and think you've done well and that your work should be appreciated, when you find yourself being criticized sharply for an accomplishment. My first instinct is to try to defend my position, etc, and sometimes thats the way I (incorrectly) react. In retrospect in many of these situations I was not always correct and would have better served myself and what I was working on had I considered the possibility that I was wrong. I look to examples like that first post of how not to handle similar situations myself. As a developer/team member the whole is often judged by the actions of the more vocal members, or by simple actions of one person and its hard to do but I try to keep in mind that I not only represent myself but am a representative of the team I work for and as such should carry myself in the light in which I would like to see our team perceived.
It is my opinion that that attitude was very dismissive and it is also my opinion that that is the worse possible way to handle critique.
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i completely agree with induane, *repeat induane's post
zan even included a disclaimer at the top of his post
*Disclaimer: This is going to be very sensitive content but I'm writing here only because I want to see things improve, not to start any attacks or immature whining.
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I know now that Xillix was tired with that first post but to me that is a good example of how such a response should not be carried out. Doing settings work myself now (Scary thought I know) I understand a bit more that perspective. Its difficult when you put effort into something, and think you've done well and that your work should be appreciated, when you find yourself being criticized sharply for an accomplishment. My first instinct is to try to defend my position, etc, and sometimes thats the way I (incorrectly) react. In retrospect in many of these situations I was not always correct and would have better served myself and what I was working on had I considered the possibility that I was wrong. I look to examples like that first post of how not to handle similar situations myself. As a developer/team member the whole is often judged by the actions of the more vocal members, or by simple actions of one person and its hard to do but I try to keep in mind that I not only represent myself but am a representative of the team I work for and as such should carry myself in the light in which I would like to see our team perceived.
It is my opinion that that attitude was very dismissive and it is also my opinion that that is the worse possible way to handle critique.
I'll agree, and I'll go a step further with it. There are people who see the work they do for Planeshift as their art, and of those there are people who can't handle criticism of their creative works. After all, it's their art. What right does anyone have to be critical of it? And this is what then happens.
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I think I do a more than fair job of representing myself and the team as a whole. We all have bad days and I am still permitted them. I have told Zan that his points were not lost on me.
Induane, I am sure that you do not think these thoughts are unique to your new found perspective.
I may be too sensitive to always respond well, but I am actively representing the team by being present by being accessible.
Live action grammar and spelling will remain more difficult for some and I think it is fair to expect lenience.
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Personally I want practical solutions to problems presented, not people pointing out the same problems over and over again and expecting (demanding often) us to magically fix them overnight. Maybe people don't always say that in words, but that's the attitude and it's a crap one to have to take. I'm surprised that Xillix has put up with it for so long, I know I won't and so I don't spend much time here or bother reading many threads. Xillix does a good job and you're lucky that he spends the time and effort to try and listen to players.
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Maybe the developers should invent a common language for the PS world and insist on its usage in game, outlawing any other so that all participants will have the same linguistic disadvantage. Either that or hire an expert grammarian team to patrol the streets and ticket poor spellers and grammar usage. I doubt that anyone, native English speaker or not, gets spelling and grammar right 100% of the time. People do what they can and those who complain about it excessively exhibit little other than snobbery or cultural imperialism.
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I associate the type of abuse that I see the devs getting on this forum with a PAYING job. People just won't stop...
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Someone is paying them to abuse the devs? :@#\
Ironically enough, my somewhat intolerant previous comment was intended to promote tolerance as were the two X's comments, I think.
Just so you know...
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I think I do a more than fair job of representing myself and the team as a whole. We all have bad days and I am still permitted them.
That's just it, Xillix. You aren't permitted them.
Personally I want practical solutions to problems presented, not people pointing out the same problems over and over again and expecting (demanding often) us to magically fix them overnight.
I don't see what's so hard or impractical about not using smilies in open IC chat.
Maybe the developers should invent a common language for the PS world and insist on its usage in game, outlawing any other so that all participants will have the same linguistic disadvantage. Either that or hire an expert grammarian team to patrol the streets and ticket poor spellers and grammar usage. I doubt that anyone, native English speaker or not, gets spelling and grammar right 100% of the time. People do what they can and those who complain about it excessively exhibit little other than snobbery or cultural imperialism.
Impractical. The common language is English. There are OOC reasons people have difficulties with it. A grammar team would only cause trouble while accomplishing nothing. The complaints have less to do with command of the english language and more to do with its application.
I associate the type of abuse that I see the devs getting on this forum with a PAYING job. People just won't stop...
The devs don't get abused in any serious way. The kids who say "I want everything and I want it yesterday!" are a joke. The problem is that volounteers have a tendency to develope a sense of entitlement and they become extra sensistive to criticism. They're thinking, "Hey, I don't need to be doing this and I'm not getting paid for it, so no one is allowed to tell me I could be doing better than I am!" It's simply not true. When you volounteer for something, you're committing to a project or cause or ideal, and you committ yourself to the full package of whatever it entails.
If ever a volounteer resents his work, he should quit. A resentful volounteer is simply getting high off of a sense of superiority.
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@Zanzibar Of course my idea was impractical but so is the perfection of performance (grammar, spelling &etc.) that you and some others seem to expect.
By the way it is spelled volunteer not volounteer
but then maybe this is just a signal that your whole complaint is not meant to be taken seriously. Is that it? Are you ragging on them in jest? It is hard to tell sometimes without proper vocal inflections.
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@Zanzibar Of course my idea was impractical but so is the perfection of performance (grammar, spelling &etc.) that you and some others seem to expect.
So you think people should be allowed to talk in 1337? That's what people complain the most about. Using smilies in open chat is a more minor thing.
By the way it is spelled volunteer not volounteer
but then maybe this is just a signal that your whole complaint is not meant to be taken seriously. Is that it? Are you ragging on them in jest? It is hard to tell sometimes without proper vocal inflections.
If it wasn't for the attention you've paid to my spelling, it would seem like you aren't reading my posts.:)
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I do not intend to have you telling me how or what to post. Go back to charging people to cross the bridge troll boy.
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Thread fails...
(http://www.hydlaa.com/images/fail.jpg)
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I've always been particularly fond of this one my self:
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/this-meeting-is-over.jpg)