PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: temp1 on September 30, 2007, 05:33:04 pm
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as per bilbous's suggestion... cont'd from http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30054.0
i think it's a good point that not everyone would be able to afford meat, but there are also religious reasons why people in planeshift could be vegetarian. Animals wouldn't be treated as cruely on medieval farms compared to the modern livestock industry, and in Planeshift's time there isn't the same culture of overconsumption and man-made chemicals that we have today, so there are fewer reasons to be vegetarian. Then again, there are races like the enkidukai which are half animal so maybe there's actually more reason not to kill animals unless it's necessary for survival.
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Remember -- this also means no wearing of leather armor or other leather items. The exception is death from natural causes.
*edit*
But I am pretty sure that eschewing leather products is an intrinsic part of vegetarianism. All vegetarians abstain from consumption of meat, which requires an animal to be slaughtered for precisely that purpose. I don't see how leather items are different in this regard, except for the fact that they are worn rather than eaten.
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Well Endikudai may be cat-like there are no other feline creatures around. I would think your idea of them being half animal is not quite right but even if it was I would assume they would be more likely to eat animals and not less.
I do not believe vegetarianism really belongs in Planeshift but I certainly would not have it forbidden. If that is how you want to play your character, knock yourself out!
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I imagine it would be most popular on the first and highest level of Yliakum, where plant life is so abundant and survival is hardly more difficult than it is in the surface.
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Well Endikudai may be cat-like there are no other feline creatures around. I would think your idea of them being half animal is not quite right but even if it was I would assume they would be more likely to eat animals and not less.
Also, if Enkidukais were considered half-animal, that wouldn't work out too well with Yliakum, since cats don't exist there. Either they are all animal and everyone else is, too (scientifically they are), or none of the races are animals. In my opinion, every living thing is an animal, unless it's a plant or has been classified as, erm, not animal.
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I'm a vegetarian in RL but I don't see it working in PS untill the settings are more fleshed out concerning foodstuffs. As far as I know there isn't any tofu :P
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Tofu is freaky...
What I hope, in the future, is that people will be able to make their own dishes. Then there would be a wider variety of vegetarian foods.
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Tofu is freaky...
But delicious marinated in sherry and fried on a pan of black olive oil from a fresh jar of olives imported from Greece.
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Mustard in vegetable soup would taste better than that. 'Sides, I don't think the people of Yliakum need tofu... They'd be happy eating a more natural alternative, such as... flowers.
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Whats unnatural about tofu?
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Let's see, do you find big blocks of whitish material in the wild? I know I don't.
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And you find lean beef steaks? Its processed. The process may be different but its a process none the less.
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I don't eat lean beef steaks.
:P
...Or do I? Maybe... I eat ribs and brisket.
:offtopic:
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Raa: Yes, but it turned out to be rock. Highly unappatizing, and the texture was a bit gritty...
Parallo: No one's claiming Yliakum has lean beef steaks either. Or even beef...? I have yet to see mention of a cow. But carving a hunk of meat from something seems a bit simpler than processing a protein cube.
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That it may be but if people felt it a moral obligation to not treat animals as objects then maybe they'd go that extra bit. Let me think of an example of where that happened before. Oh yes, Earth :P
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Chickens are edible, yes? Edible are kikiris, then. Eat kikiris, we do. Aye aye ayiyiyi!
:-X
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I am no vegetarian, not to mention no vegan. So I may be wrong, but arent those people blaming the exploiting industry to torture animals, thus denying consume?
If so, hows about that in PS? I never read or heard about it.
But if you have some profoundly reasoned roleplay to it, maybe without assuming such an industrial reckless behaviour, why not playing your char that way?
About proteins: Sorry for not giving a source or quote, but I am pretty sure theres no DNA in PS-creatures (plants included), is it possible at all then to have proteins?
To take an analogy, how would you know about if its complicated or not? And is it important at all? Why not just roleplaying him to research on, success and failure, and in the end having found some alternatives?
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A moral objection to animal suffering is sufficent I think.
As for DNA, every living thing needs a type of replicator to survive, be it DNA, RNA or something we don't know about.
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Parallo,
for your first point I thought about it a bit. I just wonder if people in some imaginary original state, slightly comparable with the stone age or so, would have felt mercy as well? However, in the end that would be a matter of point of view I think, or some individual problem.
Your second point is interesting. I once wondered about interbreeding, and possible results of it. Was said there that the RL known rules of genetics are out of ps at all. So you say it could be some fully unknown mechanism, ok, then those .. tofu things have no relevance, as using some analogies would be processed in a way also unknown.
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In the stone age people were most likely incapable of the intellectual art of moral philosophy I'd say.
As for the genetics, without huge similarities PS will require its own unique biology and I doubt the settings team plan that. So I'd say its safe to assume that most things are the same untill otherwise stated. I really don't care if tofu is in it or not. Just saying that without something to substitute the meat vegetarianism in PS is unlikely to be feasible.
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If we have cheese in PS, then we can have tofu. So long as there are also beans.
Aside from the bacteria involved in cheeses, the process of making tofu is very similar.
It's just bean curd in it's simplest state.
As for vegetarianism, and the vegan lifestyle in PS...
As I understand it, the known inhabited world is a very delicate enclosed system.
Meat in most domesticated forms would need to be watched carefully, as it takes quite a bit of room and rescources to raise cattle.
I also don't imagine it would be very hard to over fish more easily gathered seafood.
However, we do have many monsters and insect species to go after. These would be the most easily gathered meats, but due to general dificulty involved in gathering meat that would be more appetizing,
you would either have low cost junk meat or high cost prime monster meat in smaller quantities.
The world might seem big for a player, but the entire ecosystem as a whole is pretty damned tiny,
so a more vegan approach would be more logical, as it costs less rescources to maintain and has a smaller effect on the environment.
These arguments are made to support veganism in real life, and given the structure of this world they seem all the more logical.
In fact, given the lack of medical knowledge when it comes to certain kinds of disease, I'm suprised that people actually throw their dead in the pit when they might serve as a practical resource.
(But then, I'm a bit crazy anyway)
In anycase, I think that Enki should have the first choice when it comes to meats as they probably don't have the proper digestive organs for most plants.
Other races would have to make due with seaweed, beans, mushrooms, small domesticated birds and thier eggs, and the little bit of meat that comes from monster hunting.
I wonder if some species of giant insect could be succefully domesticated?
Something like the clackers, or even giant bees/wasps for honey? Some kind of ant, or roachlike creature that could live off of useless waste?
I'm sure some of these types of animals could offer useful carapaces for armor/clothes/decoration.
One of the things I'm getting at is that a more vegaterian centric lifestyle (at least one that avoids meat as we know it in the real world) could be much more interesting to see as supporting this fantasy world. Since the people would have to deal with these problems in unique ways.
If I remember correctly, there is already some hint that most of the societies already practice a low meat diet for some of the reasons I listed above.
For instance, the main beast of burden is used for labor and sheared for it's coat but they are never slaughtered because it would take too many resources to breed them for such purposes.
After typing all of this, I've decided that I want giant domesticated bees dammit!
You get honey, meat, wax, carapaces, and I'm assuming that with giant pollinators, they would have to have some kind of giant plant...
Could we please have some huge flowering herbal plant species rather than generic trees?
Hell, banana trees are just giant flowers.
This may end up beeing one of the lingering goals of Opeitus...
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If you give an Endikudai a peice of chocolate, would they die of a heart attack?
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I believe you're on the ball.
Speaking of balls...has anyone made some anti-hairball potions for them yet?
At the very least, Enki should be able to harness that marvelous hairball gland into an attack that blinds their enemies/prey.
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Letter look your back from now on fool >:
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So ... like ... why should animals be treated better than humans? Is a chicken factory worse than some of these cubical farms? What do you suppose would happen to all the pigs, cows and chickens if they were no longer used for food? Should they be allowed to run wild in the streets? Or would they be limited to the zoos and hunted to extinction elsewhere like the dangerous wild animals?
One last thing: Soylent Green IS PEOPLE!!!
heheh
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If the question is whether veganism or vegetarianism is viable roleplay the answer is yes, we will give it due consideration.
On the issue of genetics more to come soon.
I think the animal/human distinction is a crock of shite, but ps will have varying opinions on this in the in game literature. (although not explicitly as genetics per se)
Enkidukai are no more animals than ylians are and ylians are no less animal than kikiri, however the enkidukai are as genetically "advanced" as any other species considered sentient.
The only oddity is the diaboli and ynwwn for now we can assume they are animals too with some "specialness."
Ps will have whatever needed rationalizations of the eating of meat for people to argue over in time.
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i still don't see the point of this topic...
does it even matter.. eat grass if you want. or eat a grendol for all i care.
you also don't see people popping up saying " I'm making a Vegetarian Guild"
so its a personal choice for your character. and the settings team already clarified which foods certain races prefer over other foods. you don't need to restrict yourself to these foods, but they should at least be considered before you change your diet completely.
and also, its a food chain. Tefusang eats us, we eat clacker, clacker eats bug. just because we are smarter doesn't mean that we are not "animal" in a way.
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Speak for yourself. I am not an animal.
Damn dirty apes!
Sheesh I have got to stop channeling Charlton Heston.
Seriously though Kran have to be an exception as well. I am a rock!
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Erm, how many vegitarian foods are there so far? I have yet to see anything besides grass, apples, and trees. I don't care if you do it or not, but it'll be a hard time rping without anything to use.
One last thing: Soylent Green IS PEOPLE!!!
Heh heh, I was waiting for something like that.
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On the issue of genetics more to come soon.
I think the animal/human distinction is a crock of shite, but ps will have varying opinions on this in the in game literature. (although not explicitly as genetics per se)
Enkidukai are no more animals than ylians are and ylians are no less animal than kikiri, however the enkidukai are as genetically "advanced" as any other species considered sentient.
The only oddity is the diaboli and ynwwn for now we can assume they are animals too with some "specialness."
All this about genetics makes me curious for reasons I won't explain because they are secret.
Speak for yourself. I am not an animal.
Damn dirty apes!
I wash everyday :P
Seriously though Kran have to be an exception as well. I am a rock!
I was actually wondering about kran. According to some NCP's kran's eat crystals (making them vegetarians?). My question is that if they eat crystals so much why aren't they treated like food and actually sold in places like the tavern. Also can they only eat crystals and it's just not been implemented or can they eat whatever they like. I can think of more questions but I'm sure these would help me answer the others on my own.
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On the issue of genetics more to come soon.
I think the animal/human distinction is a crock of shite, but ps will have varying opinions on this in the in game literature. (although not explicitly as genetics per se)
Enkidukai are no more animals than ylians are and ylians are no less animal than kikiri, however the enkidukai are as genetically "advanced" as any other species considered sentient.
The only oddity is the diaboli and ynwwn for now we can assume they are animals too with some "specialness."
All this about genetics makes me curious for reasons I won't explain because they are secret.
Speak for yourself. I am not an animal.
Damn dirty apes!
I wash everyday :P
Seriously though Kran have to be an exception as well. I am a rock!
I was actually wondering about kran. According to some NCP's kran's eat crystals (making them vegetarians?). My question is that if they eat crystals so much why aren't they treated like food and actually sold in places like the tavern. Also can they only eat crystals and it's just not been implemented or can they eat whatever they like. I can think of more questions but I'm sure these would help me answer the others on my own.
reason... Ok I need a show of hands.... Who here has the guts to walk up to a kran and say... "Hold still while I chop you up and sell you at the tavern..."
....Anyone?..... No?.... why not?
maybe it has something to do with krans.... As they speak... they're big, and unlike vegitation, they move... And can hold claymores. ;D
though I just have to ask, if you want to be a vegitarian be my guest... But uhhhmm, i've read through this thread but I still am unsure of the whole... point.
Sorry :s
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Kran are not vegetarians, they are omnivores as far as I can tell. Real omnivores not like the way the term is usually applied. They can eat just about anything, but what they can get nutrition from is another matter. Certainly if they can eat rocks and dirt and whatever buying food would not come easy as the environment is full of things to eat. I really wonder if they have any sense of taste, it seems unlikely as the majority of taste comes from the olfactory nerve ... smell that is. If they do not breathe much do they smell much? At any rate I doubt many Kran are herbivores although wood (branches, bark, etc) might offer sufficient resistance to be palatable.
So bread, apples, carrots, mushrooms, and pie are or were in the game, several quests also call for berries and such although you can't buy them otherwise, other types of food amount to two kinds of fish, I think, so just about everyone who eats is a vegetarian whether they like it or not. I am undecided whether to include clacker meat as food as it can't be eaten. I suppose it should be included. Have I forgotten anything else? We could include various other animal parts as food but it is unclear if they are edible and certainly they cannot currently be eaten.
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Meat, carp fish, and fish all exist... My character always buys some meat at kada-els...
So no not everyone is a vegie head.
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was actually wondering about kran. According to some NCP's kran's eat crystals (making them vegetarians?).
Aren't Krans really sentiant, animated silicon crystals? They eat crystals? Krans are cannibals! CANNIBALS! ::|
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That's no more cannibalistic than humans eating mammals.
...
I wonder if you can eat a glyph?
If so, I wanna be a magitarian... Futharkarian? Glypherian? Transcendental Sentowaveform Omnisorb?
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Religious or cultural reasons why one should be a vegetarian are in hands of the Settings, not us players. Personal reasons, specific for your character are in your hands however. If you want to create a vegetarian, by all means go ahead ... just do keep in mind that the majority of 'animals' in Yliakum wants to eat you and suck your bones dry. So doing it out of kindness to animals is a bit out there :P
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Only if you're very careful with your interpretations. Too much free interpretation will create an unrealistic world. You can claim all you want about your character and whatever he creates but you cannot claim anything about things that are bigger than your character. You cannot say that, for example, followers of Talad are vegetarians. You can't think up a religious branch with hundreds of followers that has been around for ages, who are all vegetarians. The settings are responcible for the world we play in, we are only responcible for our own characters.
However your character can try to start his own cult of vegetarians. S/he can think up reasons and create something but whether it survives and grows will be up to the other players that join.
I hope you see the difference here. There is a very fine line between creating our characters and letting them affect the world ... and affecting the world to fit in a character that normally wouldn't. It'd be nice if more people realized this, a lot of godmodding and inconsistencies in RP can be avoided that way.
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"In related news, several members of the Vegan Guild were slain today during their protest outside Hydlaa's gates. It seems their cries of 'meat is murder!' attracted a passing herd of Tefusangs, who devoured several of the protestors before city guards could intervene. Memorial services are scheduled for tomorrow, where their remains will be laid to rest in the Temple of Laanx.
The irony of the attack was not lost on the guildmaster, who was quoted as saying 'Well, Tefusangs [are] made of meat'..."
:whistling: Them tefus be good eatin', if you cook 'em right....
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@Temp1:
Kieve has two e's. ;) Kiev is a city in the Ukraine, and a poultry dish.
Also, I figured as much. It was a joke... I make those, occasionally.
But I suspect relativley peaceful 'protestors' would be unprepared for a herd of angry tefusangs...
Anyhow, I think that does pretty much sum it up. You could have a char. with fixed beliefs. Maybe form a guild on the idea and gather like-minded individuals. But until Settings hammers down the messy details, that's about the extent of it.
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Glad to see we're on the same level then ;D Ya never know, I've seen people think up crazy things to incorporate their desires into this game :P
Anyways I'll look out for someone who orders a vegetarian dish at Kada's next time I visit.
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/me grins.
"At least when I eat a cow I have the decency to kill it first, you're eating that apple ALIVE."
Just had to toss that out. No opinion on the ingame subject. Do what you want, and eat what your character would eat. You can't abuse imaginary animals. :)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM
thats all i have to say. :)
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A moral objection to animal suffering is sufficent I think.
As for DNA, every living thing needs a type of replicator to survive, be it DNA, RNA or something we don't know about.
Okies, read up to this and thought for a moment...
Okay, I'll give it to you in some places on earth for food, animals are made to suffer. A little. But mostly, and probably ALWAYS in Yliakum unless the butcher was cruel, the animals would be dead before they knew anything hit them. Vegetarians generally either are vegetarian for the dislike of the taste of meat, dislike of the killing of animals, or because they are dieting. Vegans are usually because of the moral standpoint. They just don't eat any animal products, and there is variety on how careful they are. on EARTH, no matter what, face it you're gonna use animal parts. Otherwise you're gonna stink, starve, etc. I respect their opinions, of course. I just dislike the ones that are yelling at me for eating it. Which are rare, but I've actually met quite a few of them and I have SOOO wanted to tell them that their animal product made soap smells so good :P Anyways. PS, I can see it to the minor vegetarian level for the taste concept, but the moral idea and dieting are probably out the window. Moral because it isn't cruelty to butcher an animal the way it should be (heck think of the poor animals killed by other animals that die slowly when we do it quick and knock their heads of with an axe, or on earth kill them instantly with a spike through the neck). Dieting... Heck, that is generally solved because people actually have to work for a living instead of sit around all day doing nothing, or doing something but still sitting all day.Most people are warriors, miners, blacksmiths, etc, and all give a fair amount of a workout, which gets rid of the need for dieting for the most part. As for protein alternatives, I don't see that being very prevalent in PS just because it doesn't seem worth it. If you think about it, in medieval timeframes they didn't really worry about it. Food is food, if it keeps you alive, you eat it. As an off note, people would need the fats from the meats for their energy :) Kran.... Are a different story all together.
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Suffering bad, killing instantly good? Is that your hard and fast moral rule, or is it different for murder?
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Put it this way, would you rather die fast and painless or slow and painful? We're omnivores, we eat animals and plants.Heck I think even deer gorge on blood at some point to gain needed nutrients. We're animals, they're animals, they eat other animals, so do we. In PS, it may be different, but from what we have to go on, I'd say it probably goes the same way. Murder is a purely human concept. Animals do not seem to care about murder, so they seem to be exempt from it. Heck, they kill each other half the time. Never heard of survival of the fittest?
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We have the ability to forgo meat based on moral reasons. We can survive on a diet with or without it. Why should we say 'Oh look, animals do it so we should too.' Animals also throw feces at each other. We have escaped from the survival of the fittest. We have health schemes and the stock market. Fat unfit rich people can survive better than most healthy unemployed people. We have taken away 'natural' selection and created our own selective pressures.
We have the moral construct of murder and some of us build upon that and using the same premises decide not to eat meat. I really don't see why its so hard to see that happening in Yliakum.
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Because Yliakum doesn't have Microsoft?
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I can't tell if that was a joke or you just percieve Yliakum as being filled with savages.
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PlaneShift can have vegetarians. It can have carnivores. It can have omnivores. It can have mineral eaters. Why not? The characters have minds and brains; they can choose what's right and wrong to eat, based on their ethics.
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I have a character that's lactate intolerant, I hope that PS will provide sufficient food stuff so that he can go through a day with out stomach cramps and puking..
... and another that's diabetic, he cannot have any refined sugars, including carbohydrates from grains and alcohol. So I hope the Devs are on the ball and the dessert trays will have plenty of sugar free pies and cakes.
And I have another character that's ... ... ...
Maybe I wasn't all that clear in my last post on this subject. Cats aren't herbivores, they only eat grass when they want to puke. My question stands, are the Cat like characters in PS cats or humans with fur? ie Humans are omnivores and have a choice.
I think in the end result, all the races should have specific diets, So we don't see vegan cats/reptiles(winged) or Krans ingesting vegetable or animal matter. Though I would allow Krans to down a few pounds of sugar daily so it pee out rum to his dwarven friends. As for the rest, they are all human or human like to behave like us furless apes in the real world. Though one of them horned character types have aversions to metals, so maybe no red meat or leafy greens cause of their high iron constent and other such minerals/metals.
Now I am not suggesting specific diets for each that the others can't eat but more like guide lines that restrict what each can eat from the bounty the harvest brings, hard coded of course.
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Which you can.
I feel this thread is becoming less and less about Yliakum and our characters though. Instead it's turning into a vegetarians vs omnivores thread :P
:offtopic:
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I never said it couldn't have vegetarians. I was pointing out my views on vegetarians and vegans in PS. On Earth I see it as perfectly acceptable. In PS I just pointed out that I saw it as something that would be much less common.
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I kind of think that this sort of "projection" is a little out of context. How is playing a vegetarian diet really different from a player wanting to keep kosher of expecting halal preparation of their meat? True both of these strictures are religiously based but that is still a morality question. Similarly I think lactose intolerance or diabetes is unlikely. I believe these last to were examples of how this can go down the wrong track rather than supporting the basic idea. I could be wrong.
At any rate there is plenty of non-meat foodstuffs that you can avoid meat if you want. If you wish to proselytize your moral convictions in the context of the game you should probably expect in character ridicule. If you want to follow them and not try to convert society at large you should have no problems. You can also probably expect to meet some like-minded people.
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The settings dept has placed PS in a medieval period, on Earth during that period, you were lucky if you ate at all let alone have a choice in what to eat. Also earths medieval time there were only humans to contend with the dietary needs, PS has several species that do not fit the normal human structure.
That being said, RP what ever you please but don't force your RP against the settings, ie make a vegan cat/reptile or a kran that eats meat or a Dioboli?? that wears and uses metals(eats)
Along the lines of what I suggested, to make the races even more distinct, if and when food becomes a necessity in the GAME, to reinforce the separation and characteristices of each species, a hard coded diet for each should be implemented. Not one that makes special food for each but one that limits what can and cannot be eaten.
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It says its medieval but look at its society. They have a complex political structure and scientists that seem to go way beyond that. Ylikum is a much more civalised society than medieval earth.
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It says its medieval but look at its society. They have a complex political structure and scientists that seem to go way beyond that. Ylikum is a much more civalised society than medieval earth.
In fact, Yliakum is a world filled with 21st century minded people running around with swords.
Now I'm sure playing characters that don't differ from ourselves must be extremely interesting. Social concepts that define the modern ways of thinking surely enrich the game's environment. There's no doubt the game wouldn't be roleplaying enough if the characters showed any sign of simplified worldviews, one of defining elements of fantasy literature.
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On a little bit of a tangent, but along the same lines, I find it greatly amusing when folks will start spouting off in-character about their freedom of speech, or try to organize a trial by jury.
Have you folks read 'The Arena Book' in Jayose's? Or how about 'The Octarchal Decree of 425 AY'? Yliakum is FAR from "civilized".
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We have public libraries and scientists that make huge elevators! We are therefore surely able to moralize and philosophically contemplate things. The law sets out what is illegal and tries to ensure that people can protect themselves from the creatures of the stone labyrinths. The arena is, well an arena. We watch people beat each other up today too. I would not say that Yliakum is equal to today in terms of thought but it is alot more enlightened than atypical medieval times.
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A trial by jury existed in the middle ages ... only the jury would usually be made up of the most powerful nobles. Give people a nice false sense of justice. :P
Try copying that corrupt law system in the game though and everyone will jump up and cry "Injustice!". The average player is far more informed and used to a lot of freedom than your average medieval farmer.
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my char is not a vegetarian but she refusies to eat fish being that she is just about part fish her self...
if you happen to walk past a lake full of fish you know thats my days savings from the glads, but even when i but them back in there home they dont want to move :(
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Those huge elevators are magical devices, not purely mechanistic. Jayose may well let you browse his books but he owns the library and makes his living from it, it is not a public library. The typical death sentence kills an innocent animal along with the sentient being so punished, or do you suppose they only hypnotize bad Megaras to send flying into the crystal? Will you start protesting for animal rights and why shouldn't the guards throw you in a dungeon for disrupting public order, force you to subsist on whatever bugs and small animals you find in your cell? None of the laws I have seen allow for you to have any rights at all. their silence on this issue speaks volumes.
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I don't know how I'm meant to respond to that. You seem to think that it must be done in extremes. Either they couldn't care less about animals or they run around making laws to protect them and conserve them. Not all vegetarians belong to PETA! If I had a vegetarian character, which I don't, I wouldn't go around protesting. I'd simply have made a decision based upon my own contemplations. Anyway, even in our own world we had vegetarians in times gone by.
http://www.veg-world.com/articles/famous.htm
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As I said before I have no problem with people wanting to be vegetarians in the game. All I am saying is that to expect something matching one of today's more enlightened society is probably a mistake. I say more enlightened because for the most part only lip service is given by the powers that be to anything that is not directly in their interests. You can say there is free speech and justice for all in the real world but it is not really true.
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Granted. As I already said, Yliakum is less civalised that todays modern world. All I said was that it is more civalised than medieval times. Thats it. It seems that this is going nowhere so I'll stop posting now.
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Remember -- this also means no wearing of leather armor or other leather items. The exception is death from natural causes.
Here's a RW example of an old-way, leather-clad vegetarian:
OMG WTH BBQ batman! that's a long link address that makes neko's brain hurt because you didn't prevent it from making the page scroll to the right (http://books.google.com/books?id=EMaYgEkAKhsC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=vegetarian+%22snow+foot%22&source=web&ots=EuDWMbvQXG&sig=4HEOakFk50PFVSw_m5qZmSm9n2o)
Eating meat is a relic of the Ice Age.
Ten thousand years or so ago you could not grow enough edible plants to sustain your tribe, but you could find edible grasses for a herd of four-legged herbivores. Your flock would harvest the green solar energy and metabolize it into something a human could process, and your Priest would give thanks to your male-chauvinist God(s) of mortal combat, thunder and mountains as you slaughtered the sacrificial lamb.
Skip forward a few thousand years and the ice begins to recede and equatorial zones become habitable by agrarian civilizations. Priests AND Priestesses make a careful study of the movement of the stars, plants, sun and moon, and develop a reliable system of farming. Vegetarianism and veganism (and Goddess worship) become part of the spirituality of some tribes (a tradition that is carried on today by Yogis and other holy women and men, and can be traced back though time in the manuscripts of medieval alchemists, kabalists, and other practitioners of the Art). Five thousand years of relative peace ensues during which the violent conflicts that did break out were non-existential and non-genocidal.
Then come the barbarian hordes out of the still-glacial far north and south, intent on creating a Master Race through genocide, and on stealing from the peaceful agrarians the finer things in life that their own cultures are too stunted to produce. But that is a story for a different thread. Perhaps one about the 1940's.
So there is plenty of RW basis for primitive vegetarians.
With all that said, I would not recommend pandering to PETA just yet. The Ice Age isn't over, its just in the middle of a 15,000 year recession. Your Great^500 Grand Kids will readjust to a mostly carnivorous lifestyle or face extinction. Lets hope they haven't devolved the ability to digest animal proteins thanks to certain well-meaning but short-sighted ancestors.
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you have 24 hours to explain to me how that post ties in with the PS world, as this is what the thread is about, not RL history.
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There seems to be some folks out there who think that there were no vegetarians in Earth's medieval period. I observed the expression of opinions that such primitive cultures were not thinking about the ethics involved in making the decision to not eat flesh. I wanted to show that not only was vegetarianism an established cultural norm during the medieval period, but well before that also.
It would not be out of setting to RP an vegetarian in the medieval-normed world of PS. There seemed to be some conflict regarding that statement and I wanted to cite evidence in support.
It says its medieval but look at its society. They have a complex political structure and scientists that seem to go way beyond that. Ylikum is a much more civalised society than medieval earth.
This ignores the pockets of "civilized" cultures that were even more civil that most of the 21st century Western world.
The settings dept has placed PS in a medieval period, on Earth during that period, you were lucky if you ate at all let alone have a choice in what to eat.
This was not the case before the series of barbarian pastoralist invasions in BC times, especially in South East Asia. Remnants of that Golden Age survived into the medieval period, just not so much in Western Europe.
If you think about it, in medieval timeframes they didn't really worry about it. Food is food, if it keeps you alive, you eat it. As an off note, people would need the fats from the meats for their energy :)
etc...
I am no vegetarian, not to mention no vegan. So I may be wrong, but arent those people blaming the exploiting industry to torture animals, thus denying consume?
If so, hows about that in PS? I never read or heard about it.
etc...
In the stone age people were most likely incapable of the intellectual art of moral philosophy I'd say.
etc...
I just wonder if people in some imaginary original state, slightly comparable with the stone age or so, would have felt mercy as well?
Neolithic = first non-nomadic, agrarian societies = likely first vegetarians
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This was not the case before the series of barbarian pastoralist invasions in BC times, especially in South East Asia. Remnants of that Golden Age survived into the medieval period, just not so much in Western Europe.
According to the settings team, PS is set in a EUROPEAN medieval age, whether that it be right after the Roman Collapse or closer to the renaissance, the Settings Dept hasn't stated. The Romans had pulleys and levers so the elevators in Winch aren't that significant as to put the age at which PS is set in. The use of steel in crafting puts the age past the roman collapse as the Romans did not posses furnaces to produce a reliable source of steel, their main metal was iron. We could argue that PS is in the renaissance age rather than medieval, but even less rights were given to the individual and peasantry than in the more chaotic period after the Roman collapse.
Food correlates to possession of land, at least in an agrarian culture. By this I mean, PS has established settlements and walled cities, contrary to a hunter/gather civilization stage. The agrarian use of land restricts the hunter/gather, establishes tightly set boundaries and thus leading to land possession. So, if you want to keep on arguing, ask the settings team this, who owns the land and who grows the food, as for the moment it's a moot point being that we do not need to eat to survive. But since you all like arguing over the little things, I though I'd add this log to the fire.
Again I don't care what you RP, as long as it does not effect the settings and over all game. once it crosses that line, guide line have to be set and usually hard coded in order the have every one adhere to them. If we have different species, and the subject of food comes in to play in the game mechanics, specific dietary needs for each species need to be established as well or we might as well make every one human from the get go.
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Bastet, the stuff you say is cute and all, but it's no evidence that vegetarianism was present in medieval times in any notable degree.
Agriculture allowed people to feed more folks. Folks multiplied. Obvious reasoning shows the diet was then consisting more on plants, not because people were suddenly vegetarians, but because there was more plants than meat. Anyway, as far as Europe goes, vegetarianism could be first associated with the classical period (Greece, Rome, and all that stuff), when philosophical thought began condemning violence towards animals. It began disappearing towards the end of Ancient period and was finally revived to some point during the Renaissance. All the same, until 20th century it remained at low levels.
But that's Earth.
As far as Yliakum goes, unless I see people walking around spreading idea of non-violence towards Trepors and Tefusangs (and people actually avoiding fights with the wild beasts), I see absolutely no basis for vegetarianism in PS.
The way it is now, Tefusangs are commonly hunted down, kikiris bred for food, innocent mounts sometimes suffer when criminals are cast into Azure Sun, and finally stronger animals are used to power up machinery.
Morality towards primitive animals is completely alien to a typical dweller of Yliakum.
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Aleasis Productions
Lil One of Oja
YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVDOCvGqQ_Y)
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All the examples you gave have Earth equvilants and yet there is vegetarianism on Earth. Therefore saying that because of that there is no vegetarianism is a non-sequitur. Plus in the real world I'm a vegetarian and I don't make protest so saying that vegetarianism requires protests and demonstrations to exist is too.
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All the examples you gave have Earth equvilants and yet there is vegetarianism on Earth. Therefore saying that because of that there is no vegetarianism is a non-sequitur. Plus in the real world I'm a vegetarian and I don't make protest so saying that vegetarianism requires protests and demonstrations to exist is too.
You're comparing modern and medieval societies, aren't you?
I assume you are capable of pointing out the literature focus (you know, like "memento mori" in medieval times) of modernism either? :P
By the way, you are a vegetarian because the lot of people before you protested against animal maltreatment. If it wasn't for them, the idea would be distant, obscure and hardly followed by anyone. By protesting, those people increased awareness of the human society. Rise of free speech and global information access helped too.
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Well since i have only been back to PS for the past few days after about 2 years out i feel it's about time i go involved and this topic siuts me just fine.
Firstly Vegetarianism in PS is a intresting concept, true it could be tied into either race or religion to bring a new depth to the game. I for one would welcome anything that expanse the game further, and if your going to have vegetarians then would this also allow for pure meat eaters ( Carnivores ) ?
Secondly would a vegtable only diet sustain a charater for as long as meat would ? or would vegetarians have to consume meals more often or in larger quantities as is the case in RL ?
Third and last in my opion both of the human breeds would to the most part be omnivores ( if you need this one cleared up by a reason then i suggest you look at your teeth you have teeth natraully designed for both vegatable and meat).
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By the way, you are a vegetarian because the lot of people before you protested against animal maltreatment.
Actually I think that most protesters are nut jobs and absolute fools. The almost stopped me from being vegetarian :P
If it wasn't for them, the idea would be distant, obscure and hardly followed by anyone.
That could be true and even if it was it could be followed by some. There are however other modes for the exchange of ideas. String theory is a prevalent theory among scientists but most laymen wouldn't know what it was. The same could be true of the idea of vegetarianism being something tossed about by moral philosophers in a scholarly way unknown to the unintellectuals. Plus look at Buddism's reverence of life. That has been around a long time. Some of them won't cut a cabbage without asking permission from it.
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One way or another. There's still none of it in Yliakum.
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That is a solid argument, I must say :P
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I am well aware.
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Again, I don't care what Role Play you follow as long as I don't see any Felines or Reptiles acting like rabbits. If you're going to play a carnivor then Role Play as one.
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Given that we know that the biology is totally different in PS we don't know what they need to function regardless of their real world counterparts. I don't really care that much about this issue as it really doesn't matter to my character.