PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Marqsaynt on October 17, 2007, 12:06:11 am
-
First off, I am hoping this can be a constructive topic, no flaming, or "teh devs are trying to kill dueling!!111" comments please. I know this has been a hot topic in the past but, I am more interested in ideas on how both of these features (PvP dueling and Anti-Luring) can be improved and other rational comments and not hearing someone venting their frustrations about the new systems; there is a reason this thread is not in the complaint department section. ;)
So here goes, a few thoughts and ideas...
To begin with, and I know this has been mentioned by a few other people but, it makes a lot of sense to me that if NPCs are not reacting ideally when players try to attack them from distance, then perhaps altering the way NPCs react instead of how people attack them would be arguably a better option.... unless you are worried about people luring other players too. :P Similarly, it seems that just making the "anti-luring" thing work only against NPCs would also be a very viable option. After all, by definition of the system it was only intended to change how people fight NPCs anyway, not PvP.
One thing I was glad to see though is that this distance attack change didn't seem to have any effect on magic. This is great since it would make little sense having to cast a long distance spell from right up close to your opponent but, it did make me wonder about something. If a person can still attack with something like energy arrow from far away, doesn't that mean they can just "lure" NPCs away using magic?
Speaking of magic, with the way the anti-luring change effects regular weapon attacks, it seems to me that in a duel anyone that has pretty decent magic abilities is easily going to beat up on someone fighting with standard weapons. I know a lot of work has gone into balancing magic and it's effectiveness but, this just seems to me to be an almost unfair advantage and unnecessarily frustrating for someone that doesn't RP a mage character.
I know there are a lot of people out there that like to make the argument that any type of timing based dueling is not truly RP worthy since it doesn't base everything purely on IG character stats. There are two big problems I see with this argument though.
1. You don't learn to duel all by yourself or standing in front of an NPC. The timing based aspect has always brought players together to interact, train, and in many cases have loose master/apprentice relationships. In my mind the highest form of any truly RP game is having "real" people's characters interacting in a completely IC way. Since so much time is spent practicing with others or training under a "master" I would argue that these are in fact IC things learned... just because they don't show up as an OOC: "Dueling Skill: level 54" stat, doesn't make this any less true.
2. If dueling were made to be purely based on measurable character stats, then in many ways I can see the IG PS community being left open to pretty much the whims of any "leet" Power Leveler that has spent countless hours maxing his stats and knows he can pretty much push people around all he wants because he's the strongest. This seems to me to hinder RP, not add to it or even make it more realistic. After all, what is more realistic, standing in front of an NPC for hours on end that keeps dying and magically reappearing, or learning from another thinking person they're collected knowledge and fighting styles?
If I recall right, the whole dash 'n' slash fighting method sort of came about unintentionally, however, in my mind it is definitely one of those "happy accidents." With a bit more nurturing and tweaking this fighting system could not only be incredibly fun but, could also enhance RP in a way that no game has ever managed to achieve. :)
There have been a few comments form the PS "higher-ups" that not only gives me hope for dueling but gives me the impression that changes to the fighting system are far from over (after all, it's only an alpha stage game!).
"Friends, we are still listening to you. One thing I remember about the old days was the great roleplays and the great dueling matches etc. One thing i can say about that is we have just drawn a lot of talent from the player community into the dev community this will equalize in short order as those individual's content slowly makes it into the game. For duelists I can assure you that Xillix never forgets you, no matter how much you might thinks so . . .be patient we have things in mind for you."
A Quote from Xillix from this thread ---> http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30117.msg345168#msg345168 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30117.msg345168#msg345168)
And also-
"All combats started in PvP mode are considered non-lethal, so when you defeat your opponent he collapses to the ground and he cannot move for 30 seconds. In those 30 seconds you have the chance to deliver the final blow in case you really want to kill him. This feature will allow players to experiment duels and different combat techniques, to test weapons and to really roleplay mentors or trainers."
Quote from Talad during his most recent interview ---> http://news.mmosite.com/interview/content/2007-10-07/20071007223114402,3.shtml (http://news.mmosite.com/interview/content/2007-10-07/20071007223114402,3.shtml)
Well, call it speculation if you want but it seems to me that if all a person needs to do during a duel is stand still right in front of their target and hit one key, then there really isn't much call for dueling "mentors" or trainers, or really to even experiment with techniques since the only real choice one would have to make is, which attack stance to use?
So, call me an optimist but, I get the feeling that dueling is far from dead... just maybe in a lull as some features get straightened out. Anyway, I'm hoping this thread will generate some great ideas and maybe start a level-headed dialog on people's different philosophies on how dueling could be implemented in PS.
I know it was loooong but, thanks for reading. :)
-
You do bring up some good points.
Speaking of magic, with the way the anti-luring change effects regular weapon attacks, it seems to me that in a duel anyone that has pretty decent magic abilities is easily going to beat up on someone fighting with standard weapons. I know a lot of work has gone into balancing magic and it's effectiveness but, this just seems to me to be an almost unfair advantage and unnecessarily frustrating for someone that doesn't RP a mage character.
I don't believe that. I'm not sure about this but I believe that ingame running will cancel a spell, something a mage character would have to do to avoid any weapon attacks. I see dueling as taking a lot more IC skill this way because you will have to think about how to attack etc. Almost like how rp fighting works instead of just the usually running and attacking. I can see so much more sense in this dueling system than the previous one and in my opinion it will work better for rp. You don't have to be a mage character to win because it will be hard both ways. It all depends on how you prepare. You might pick a small spot for the battle, automatically restricting the mage or a large spot restricting the warrior. I can see much more IC tactic this way and it, for the first time, actually makes me want to duel because I don't have to rely on how much I don't lag.
1. You don't learn to duel all by yourself or standing in front of an NPC. The timing based aspect has always brought players together to interact, train, and in many cases have loose master/apprentice relationships. In my mind the highest form of any truly RP game is having "real" people's characters interacting in a completely IC way. Since so much time is spent practicing with others or training under a "master" I would argue that these are in fact IC things learned... just because they don't show up as an OOC: "Dueling Skill: level 54" stat, doesn't make this any less true.
As I hinted on a little before dueling really relys on the skill of the player, not the character. Its all about if you can press the attack button at the right time. So what if I rp to have an extremly skilled character in the sword and I've even trained him so? If I can't get the ooc attacking stuff down then I'll never be a good dueler regardless of what I rp. I'm not saying that learning to duel wasn't a great starter for rp it just wasn't, at least in my head, the best way to go. Its still possible to do these things, only on a more IC level. You can duel focusing more on tatics and IC attributes making it possible for everyone to win instead of saying I have really bad ping so there's no way I'll be able to hit on time.
So, call me an optimist but, I get the feeling that dueling is far from dead... just maybe in a lull as some features get straightened out.
Its definately far from dead. Though I've never been a dueler I think eventually dueling will be made so that everyone can look at it with confidence. In other words I think in the future it will be bigger(even more so than it has been in the past) because dueling is the way to fight using game mechanics.
-
As I hinted on a little before dueling really relys on the skill of the player, not the character. Its all about if you can press the attack button at the right time. So what if I rp to have an extremly skilled character in the sword and I've even trained him so? If I can't get the ooc attacking stuff down then I'll never be a good dueler regardless of what I rp. I'm not saying that learning to duel wasn't a great starter for rp it just wasn't, at least in my head, the best way to go. Its still possible to do these things, only on a more IC level. You can duel focusing more on tatics and IC attributes making it possible for everyone to win instead of saying I have really bad ping so there's no way I'll be able to hit on time.
Note that RP depends on the skill of the players as well, not the characters. It's the players behind them that add the quality to the plots, that make them come to life. Their wits limit that of their characters, the same way their skill timing their attacks limits their dueling performance. If you try to RP someone who's way smarter than you IRL, you'll place yourself in a very tough situation and most likely put out mediocre RP. Both require a certain degree of ability on the player's side that is essential for an enjoyable experience.
Duraza wouldn't be a fifth of what he is if not for your skill as a player, whether you've maxed his abilities or never trained one bit. Whether you've followed his current stats and skills or ignored them completely. And your skills as a player have evolved with the interaction with others as well. Dueling is not camping. It shouldn't be denied the same flexibility and potential of interaction any other encounter between players can have.
Now, remember that this was not a modification made to the dueling system on purpose. It's a side effect, thus it's only a matter of time until action is taken. As you know, there are plenty of things that require the attention of the devs and it's only been a few days since the release so try to enjoy the many things that work well at the moment like quests and, well, roleplay of course.
-
I think the answer is easy ... reprogram things so that NPC's aren't triggered to respond until they're actually hit. This will allow people to still use the attack stances from a distance but an NPC won't react until it feels something.
-
Very nice post Marqsyant, very well thought out an put very nicely. Thank you.
-
Now, remember that this was not a modification made to the dueling system on purpose. It's a side effect, thus it's only a matter of time until action is taken.
Yeah, I know. I've always just been a terrible dueler because of how the system works. I know its not going to stay this way but I love to give my opinion about how it is regardless since the chance was presented. :P
Duraza wouldn't be a fifth of what he is if not for your skill as a player, whether you've maxed his abilities or never trained one bit. Whether you've followed his current stats and skills or ignored them completely. And your skills as a player have evolved with the interaction with others as well. Dueling is not camping. It shouldn't be denied the same flexibility and potential of interaction any other encounter between players can have.
Note that RP depends on the skill of the players as well, not the characters. It's the players behind them that add the quality to the plots, that make them come to life. Their wits limit that of their characters, the same way their skill timing their attacks limits their dueling performance. If you try to RP someone who's way smarter than you IRL, you'll place yourself in a very tough situation and most likely put out mediocre RP. Both require a certain degree of ability on the player's side that is essential for an enjoyable experience.
Which is why one rps doing things that they are good at. I wouldn't rp someone who is smarter than me because as you said my player skill wouldn't match and it would lead to bad rp. In rp I have the choice to be able to do things that I am good at. Anyone can be a good rper as long as they have the ability to think like the character you choose. You have a choice and flexibility. Its your own fault if your rp ends up bad. Not everyone can be a good dueler because of how the system works. You aren't granted the same choice and flexibility. In the end its either your good or your bad. When I first played this game (before I rped and before Duraza existed) I tried to learn dueling. I failed miserably. Every once in a while I've tried again with an alt, still doing as bad as the last time. There are people most likely who are in my same situation. Yet there are people who learn to rp all the time and end up being as good at it as anyone else.
I know I'm probably complaining over nothing because the game is still in beta and eventually everything will work out but I don't think my post are invalid in the points they make and I like to know that someone is listening and might remember them in the future because they were written, not just thoughts I had but decided not to say.
Its definately far from dead. Though I've never been a dueler I think eventually dueling will be made so that everyone can look at it with confidence. In other words I think in the future it will be bigger(even more so than it has been in the past) because dueling is the way to fight using game mechanics.
I think the answer is easy ... reprogram things so that NPC's aren't triggered to respond until they're actually hit. This will allow people to still use the attack stances from a distance but an NPC won't react until it feels something.
In the end the answer isn't so easy. Me a guy who doesn't like dueling the least bit believes that one day it will be a big part of the game when it comes to conflict and fighting. If I stick around for that long and I end up being right then I wouldn't want to be one of the only people who can't duel well ;)
-
The same logic would apply to being a fighter- if you want to be a fighter in the game, you should have good player skills behind it, the same as if you are rping an intelligent character-you have to be intelligent yourself. or at the very least, do a whole lot of research...
-
"...When I first played this game (before I rped and before Duraza existed) I tried to learn dueling. I failed miserably. Every once in a while I've tried again with an alt, still doing as bad as the last time. There are people most likely who are in my same situation. Yet there are people who learn to rp all the time and end up being as good at it as anyone else..."
Hey Duraza,
I definitely agree with you that dueling has a steep learning curve, though not necessarily to the point it's impossible, just may take some people longer than others to pick up. But, I think you did bring up a good point, as it stands learning to fight PvP in PS takes quite a bit of effort, even to just be a decent dueler. Personally, I feel a good thing to aim for in the dueling system would be one that, as the old saying goes, "is easy to learn but, difficult to master." Right now we only have half that. I wish I could think of some ideas on how to achieve that but, all i can think up right now is maybe if attack animations were made to correspond with the timing of the weapon a character was swinging it'd be a bit easier. At least with something like that there'd be some kind of visual cue also tied to the timing aspect.
Also, I would hope that once everything is version 1.0 and optimized, lag wouldn't really be as big of an issue in a duel as it is now. I was hoping this thread would be about different people's takes on dueling and ideas on how it can change and grow as PS keeps evolving, so keep the thoughts/ideas/opinions coming. :thumbup:
Note that RP depends on the skill of the players as well, not the characters. It's the players behind them that add the quality to the plots, that make them come to life. Their wits limit that of their characters, the same way their skill timing their attacks limits their dueling performance. If you try to RP someone who's way smarter than you IRL, you'll place yourself in a very tough situation and most likely put out mediocre RP. Both require a certain degree of ability on the player's side that is essential for an enjoyable experience.
Duraza wouldn't be a fifth of what he is if not for your skill as a player, whether you've maxed his abilities or never trained one bit. Whether you've followed his current stats and skills or ignored them completely. And your skills as a player have evolved with the interaction with others as well. Dueling is not camping. It shouldn't be denied the same flexibility and potential of interaction any other encounter between players can have.
Now, remember that this was not a modification made to the dueling system on purpose. It's a side effect, thus it's only a matter of time until action is taken. As you know, there are plenty of things that require the attention of the devs and it's only been a few days since the release so try to enjoy the many things that work well at the moment like quests and, well, roleplay of course.
Dajoji,
Really good point, couldn't have said it better myself. Also, glad to hear that the momentary change in dueling was just an unfortunate side effect and not an intentional altering to the PvP system. I was hoping it wasn't intentional and decided to give all you hardworking people behind PS the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Glad my faith wasn't misplaced. :)
-
By the way, I have reopened my original bugreport that triggered the mis-fix. :P Magodra
-
I've looked at this thread a couple of times, few times started a reply, then cancelled it, since I didn't really know what to contribute, that hasn't been said already. But regardless of what has been said so far, I'll go on anyway now.
To begin with, a very good thread there, Marq, really appreciate it!
And many made some really good points, which I want to add my two cents to.
I know there are a lot of people out there that like to make the argument that any type of timing based dueling is not truly RP worthy since it doesn't base everything purely on IG character stats. There are two big problems I see with this argument though.
1. You don't learn to duel all by yourself or standing in front of an NPC. The timing based aspect has always brought players together to interact, train, and in many cases have loose master/apprentice relationships. In my mind the highest form of any truly RP game is having "real" people's characters interacting in a completely IC way. Since so much time is spent practicing with others or training under a "master" I would argue that these are in fact IC things learned... just because they don't show up as an OOC: "Dueling Skill: level 54" stat, doesn't make this any less true.
2. If dueling were made to be purely based on measurable character stats, then in many ways I can see the IG PS community being left open to pretty much the whims of any "leet" Power Leveler that has spent countless hours maxing his stats and knows he can pretty much push people around all he wants because he's the strongest. This seems to me to hinder RP, not add to it or even make it more realistic. After all, what is more realistic, standing in front of an NPC for hours on end that keeps dying and magically reappearing, or learning from another thinking person they're collected knowledge and fighting styles?
Totally agree. The one thing I really liked about dueling, is that the player had a certain impact on how a fight is executed. While many say, that playerskill shouldn't be involved in an RPG, I have to strongly disagree. An RPG doesn't exclude playerskill, since roleplay doesn't mean that the game is doing anything for you based on your skills. The very base of an RPG is simply playing a role. Monster slaying, leveling and such are only the most common pillars, but very often mistaken for the true spirit of an RPG, which is why so many games are being released under the catecory of RPG, just because the pillars are there, even without the base. To cut a long sotry short: Neither stats and skill, nor an AI doing things for you makes a game a roleplaying game, hence, playerskill to be involved shouldn't be demonized.
Further, I think some people don't really know what I'm refering to, when I say 'playerskill'. Playerskill doesn't mean how quick your fingers are, playerskill means the knowledge on how to approach a fight from a tactical point of view. It's just like you said, Marq, there are apprentices and there are masters. While I wouldn't say I am, or rather was a master of dueling, I had quite some students, which have becomes quite good and well known by now. But I wasn't giving them lessons in how to be faster with their keyboards, I've taught them the general proceeding of a fight, timing and tactic, which cannot be seen as OOC skills. In general it can be said, that when two fighters with about the same stats and skills meet, the smarter one wins, 'smarter' meaning more thoughtful and tactical. Now this can't really be something something to be frowned upon, can it?
As I hinted on a little before dueling really relys on the skill of the player, not the character. Its all about if you can press the attack button at the right time. So what if I rp to have an extremly skilled character in the sword and I've even trained him so? If I can't get the ooc attacking stuff down then I'll never be a good dueler regardless of what I rp. I'm not saying that learning to duel wasn't a great starter for rp it just wasn't, at least in my head, the best way to go. Its still possible to do these things, only on a more IC level. You can duel focusing more on tatics and IC attributes making it possible for everyone to win instead of saying I have really bad ping so there's no way I'll be able to hit on time.
The way dueling was before, playerskill and characterskill went hand in hand, which I think is the best system I've ever come across. The two skills complemented eachother perfectly, without the need to have both, in order to win a battle. Sure, a highskilled player has much brighter conditions to win against an underskilled player, but he doesn't necessarily have to be the better one. A high skilled player relying on character skill might loose against a low skilled player relying on character skill, but in my humble opinion, this is how it should be, or else we have the powerlevelers being the ones in charge of pwning other players. This is how most other MMORPGS are and certainly, they suck. However, a stable server and a good connection does have some influence on a duel in PS, but not as much as you think. I myself have a quite alright ping of 250-400 with a 16mbit line, but this doesn't mean I'm invulnerable. My former guild master Idoru, who has a ping of around 1000, is able to kick my rear end, because his lag is my lag aswell. If he is lagging on his side, I see him ghosting on my side, which makes it a fair game, even if luck has a bigger influence on the outgoing. However, the ping of a player doesn't determine his sucessrate in dueling, the impact is rather tiny.
When I first played this game (before I rped and before Duraza existed) I tried to learn dueling. I failed miserably. Every once in a while I've tried again with an alt, still doing as bad as the last time. There are people most likely who are in my same situation. Yet there are people who learn to rp all the time and end up being as good at it as anyone else.
To be honest, dueling shouldn't be too easy to begin with. At this point, I'd like to make the comparison to asian martial arts movies, so called easterns. There is most often a character who experienced a brutal injustice in the beginning of the movie, and then wants to take revenge. In most cases, this character has poor experience with fighting and fails miserably, but then stumbles upon a master of martial arts, and gets that master to teach him. This relationship between master and apprentice is - like Marqsaynt said - a very good base for roleplay in the first place, and having that sort of system prevents the uberskilled players from kicking ass just due to their characterskills. It does not only not harm roleplay, it even creates situtations, roleplay can grow up from.
And honestly, dueling can be learned quite easily, if you have the right trainer. If you are still interested in learning it, I would be happy to be the one, who teaches you. And trust me, I have yet to come across someone, who is just hopeless in my eyes. :) (Makes me once again think about opening a combative sports school :P)
Hey Duraza,
I definitely agree with you that dueling has a steep learning curve, though not necessarily to the point it's impossible, just may take some people longer than others to pick up. But, I think you did bring up a good point, as it stands learning to fight PvP in PS takes quite a bit of effort, even to just be a decent dueler. Personally, I feel a good thing to aim for in the dueling system would be one that, as the old saying goes, "is easy to learn but, difficult to master." Right now we only have half that. I wish I could think of some ideas on how to achieve that but, all i can think up right now is maybe if attack animations were made to correspond with the timing of the weapon a character was swinging it'd be a bit easier. At least with something like that there'd be some kind of visual cue also tied to the timing aspect.
Well spoken, Marq, but from my point of view, the PvP system of PS was just how you described; easy to learn, but difficult to master. Movement and timing is quite easy to learn, but advanced techniques is what makes the difference between a decent dueler and a really good dueler. I personally saw nothing wrong with hit&run, or dash'n'slash how you call it. It was fun to learn and to apply, since you learned from each and every fight. The learning curve is not solid though, it depends on those who teach it, rather than those who learn it. If taught right, one can be one of the best duelers within a few weeks, yet with some space to the top, since true masters never stop learning.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now to the enhancement of the PvP system. You can tell I liked the system how it was before, so I can't wait until it got reverted. However, the previous system still had some flaws, which the fix of those should be the first goal in upgrading PvP.
1) Instant hits - A totally unfair method of bypassing weapon timing. If you know how to do it, you could win almost any fight. I myself know how to do it, and fortunately also how to prevent it from happening in 95% of the cases, but I never used it on purpose, since it's just dishonorable to win a fight using this method, which is why I always OOC'ly apologize whenever I did it by mistake.
2) Facing rule - Somewhat borked, because sometimes you can count the hairs in your opponent's nose, but still get the message to face him in order to hit, and other times you stab him backwards. This might due to server lag (not client lag), so I would once again supplicate for a wider radius for the facing rule (or alternatively a more stable server :P).
Further, some ideas, that could probably improve the PvP system.
1) Although I like the ability to freely run around while in a duel, I could also think of a movement system based on Zelda, Fable, or Jade Empire (if there are some console gamers around :P). The combat system there mainly makes you focus your opponent, while the camera follows him so he stays in focus. Your character then pretty much patters around the opponent. This would actually give room for some non slashing options, such as getting behind the opponent and grabbing him, or casting some quick magic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHMgIVBUj1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7RHi06dhaM
Anyway, since these games use real time combat, it will be a challenge to modify it to fit with the semi realtime combat PS is currently using, but I think it could be done and certainly become the best combat system ever ;)
2) Balance magic and weapons. Most spells are still weak and don't really give any advantage over your opponent. Especially buffs are currently not really an option, simply because they take quite some time to be casted, don't really give a noticeable advantage and wear off way too fast. A skilled mage should be able to cast a strength buff, that adds like 40 to STR for about 2 minutes or something.
3) Add quick side steps or rolls, to dash away from the opponents' strike. They could cost quite a bit of stamina, let's say 10-20%, so people aren't doing it all the time.
4) Like Marqsaynt said, slashing animations to match with the weapon timing. I know it is planned for the future, nevertheless I wanted to mention it.
5) Shields. Again, I know it's planned for the future, but still.
6) Combos. In addition to the different stances, there could be slashing combos; left, right, spin, right. Not to be done in real time with hitting various buttons, but like I said, as an addition to stance changes. /attackcombo bloody and your char performs the combo all by himself. Such a combo would raise the chances to hit, but also be very risky and stamina draining and could take a longer preparation. A 3-hit-combo with shortswords would then take 6 seconds instead of 2, for example.
Try to picture a fight with the improvements above. 2 players carefully surrounding eachother, trying to get a hit in, without being hit themselfs, dashing away (and delaying the other one's camera focus), casting some magic, keeping distance, preparing the next hit, going in... And all that without many keys. Such a system would once again combine playerskill and characterskill, easy to learn, but difficult to master.
Well then, just my opinion of a good PvP system. Flame on... no, don't :P
-
Pfft, you made me come back here :P
To be honest, dueling shouldn't be too easy to begin with. At this point, I'd like to make the comparison to asian martial arts movies, so called easterns. There is most often a character who experienced a brutal injustice in the beginning of the movie, and then wants to take revenge. In most cases, this character has poor experience with fighting and fails miserably, but then stumbles upon a master of martial arts, and gets that master to teach him. This relationship between master and apprentice is - like Marqsaynt said - a very good base for roleplay in the first place, and having that sort of system prevents the uberskilled players from kicking ass just due to their characterskills. It does not only not harm roleplay, it even creates situtations, roleplay can grow up from.
Well spoken, Marq, but from my point of view, the PvP system of PS was just how you described; easy to learn, but difficult to master. Movement and timing is quite easy to learn, but advanced techniques is what makes the difference between a decent dueler and a really good dueler. I personally saw nothing wrong with hit&run, or dash'n'slash how you call it. It was fun to learn and to apply, since you learned from each and every fight. The learning curve is not solid though, it depends on those who teach it, rather than those who learn it. If taught right, one can be one of the best duelers within a few weeks, yet with some space to the top, since true masters never stop learning.
Well yeah, nothing should be easy in the begining. And sure since its a game "player skill" will be involved. However how the pvp system combines the two isn't to my liking. I don't want a system where two people run at each other back and forth. THe reason why is that no matter how realistic it seems it really makes little sense. Example:
Lets say I have a claymore and my opponent has short swords. In a close up fight the advantage is my opponent obviously because he/she is much quicker and it takes me a while to swing my sword. However in something as odd as us running at each other the advantage should go to me with the claymore. The claymore is bigger so it will be easier to hit you with it and still do damage. However the short swords are smaller and when we just touch for a few seconds for the attack before seperating I doubt they can do as much damage as they do. You could argue that the claymore is slow and so harder to swing in time but I think that it would still make much more sense for it to win.
As for magic everyone knows that it needs to be fixed however I don't think it's all just a "underpowered" thing. Even if magic became super strong guess what? You can't cast while running so it doesn't matter. If they change it so we can then as soon as people start only using magic others will get angry because they can't hit you. What's next? We get a ps game full of swordsmen who fight with uber magic and just a bunch of mages period because no one wants to lose because they know sword is a disadvantage. Even underpowered magic with the change of being able to cast while running will cause this to happen. Yet as long as we can't run while casting its unfair to use because we are going to most likely lose.
Sure I doubt we will ever have on that is perfect and pleases everyone but this one isn't "fair" enough yet for me to agree with it. It can be tweaked but I'm not seeing a way it can be fixed to eliminate a majority of problems that bug me the most :P
-
1) Although I like the ability to freely run around while in a duel, I could also think of a movement system based on Zelda, Fable, or Jade Empire (if there are some console gamers around :P). The combat system there mainly makes you focus your opponent, while the camera follows him so he stays in focus. Your character then pretty much patters around the opponent. This would actually give room for some non slashing options, such as getting behind the opponent and grabbing him, or casting some quick magic.
3) Add quick side steps or rolls, to dash away from the opponents' strike. They could cost quite a bit of stamina, let's say 10-20%, so people aren't doing it all the time.
Kayden recently changed the strafing speed a lot in svn. It is now halfway between walking and sneaking speed - though this will not make it exactly how you wished, the result might be similar. It's much more like a FPS movement system, if you bind the keys to strafe and use mouselook... Might be the end of the ol' three point turn ;)
-
Pfft, you made me come back here :P
A wizard, ain't I? :D
Well yeah, nothing should be easy in the begining. And sure since its a game "player skill" will be involved. However how the pvp system combines the two isn't to my liking. I don't want a system where two people run at each other back and forth. THe reason why is that no matter how realistic it seems it really makes little sense. Example:
Lets say I have a claymore and my opponent has short swords. In a close up fight the advantage is my opponent obviously because he/she is much quicker and it takes me a while to swing my sword. However in something as odd as us running at each other the advantage should go to me with the claymore. The claymore is bigger so it will be easier to hit you with it and still do damage. However the short swords are smaller and when we just touch for a few seconds for the attack before seperating I doubt they can do as much damage as they do. You could argue that the claymore is slow and so harder to swing in time but I think that it would still make much more sense for it to win.
You're right, in a close up fight, the faster weapon has the advantage, just as you said, which is why some movement should be involved to make it a fair game for any kind of weapons. The current movement does the job, but it looks so ... silly and unrealistic in most eyes, hence, hit&run style is being smiled upon by many. However, if the movement during PvP would just look more realistic, it would appeal to many more people right away, simply because they 'wouldn't feel silly doing it'. And if also there was a broader spectrum of actions than just moving and timing the hit (spells, side rolls, grabs, ...) I am confident that the orphaned game feature dueling would finally get out of the underground.
But back to your original points. The PvP system how it used to be was pretty much balanced in my eyes, at least in terms of weapon usage. It didn't matter what kind of weapon someone wielded, the technique evened out weapon strength. The claymore fighter did have the same chance on winning the fight as the shortsword fighter. The advantages and disadvantages of each weapon kind were balanced. The claymore for example needs more than twice as much to be swung, but it also had a longer range and a much higher damage, being hit with it only once, often resulted in death. On the other way around, the short sword did have the advantage of speed, but the wielder had to get closer to his opponent and the hit had much less force, which is why a hit didn't necessarily mean to be deadly. (Note: In my example I presumed both to use normal stance, however, the damage of the weapons fluctuates depending on the used stance of course, but the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon kind remains the same, no matter what stance is used. )
At any rate, no weapon should have greater advantages than others, and this is how it used to be, due to hit&run. On a sidenote: In RL, Claymores were never really used for combat. Claymore wielders were actually only applied to be in the frontlines and to cut off the spearheads of the opposite army's frontlines. For a close combat they were just too heavy and unpractical. But this doesn't matter, in a fantasy game, almost anything goes, even one claymore each hand... :whistling: :D
As for magic everyone knows that it needs to be fixed however I don't think it's all just a "underpowered" thing. Even if magic became super strong guess what? You can't cast while running so it doesn't matter. If they change it so we can then as soon as people start only using magic others will get angry because they can't hit you. What's next? We get a ps game full of swordsmen who fight with uber magic and just a bunch of mages period because no one wants to lose because they know sword is a disadvantage. Even underpowered magic with the change of being able to cast while running will cause this to happen. Yet as long as we can't run while casting its unfair to use because we are going to most likely lose.
Well, superstrong magic requires super high skills, I assume, hence, a 'warrior' would take ages to become a moderate hybrid, while pure mages become powerful much quicker, since they don't waste their time and money on combat skills. I am sure there would be some hybrids who succesfully mastered both, weapon and magic, but why shouldn't they, it's a classless game.
However, the spectrum of spells still increases, but I see inconsistencies between their power. Healing Flash does about the same health recovery as Life Infusion of the same level, but consumes more mana. I would expect a spell which requires lvl 80 to be much more powerful than a spell which requires lvl 0, simply because it's a very advanced spell. Now this is what I could regard a flaw, and I already hear people say 'The magic system isn't finished, give it some time.'. Yes, I can very well imagine that plans are there to balance it out, but fact is, that a good PvP system keeps the balance between combat and magic, which one requirement is a decent amount of available spells aswell as their different gradations of power. And this is why I suggested magic to be more balanced. The powerslider is a good approach on nuancing, but it doesn't do the job perfectly, so in the comparison Healing Flash (lvl 80 + 80%) vs Life Infusion (lvl 80 + 80%), there is no noticeable difference. I think it is a matter of formula however.
PS: Perhaps the powerslider should also have an effect on the speed of a spell and not only the mana consumption? 0% = fast, 100% = slow. Just an idea.
*Edit* And perhaps some spells could being cast instantly, of which their power reaches from weak to moderate. And with a rest period before they can be cast again.
Kayden recently changed the strafing speed a lot in svn. It is now halfway between walking and sneaking speed - though this will not make it exactly how you wished, the result might be similar. It's much more like a FPS movement system, if you bind the keys to strafe and use mouselook... Might be the end of the ol' three point turn ;)
Sounds good :) Although I could imagine the strafing speed to be walk-alike when in walking mode, and run-alike when in running mode ;)
*Edit2* Thinking it over again, running sidewards probably wouldn't be the best solution to make PvP movement look more realistic. I'd still suggest sidesteps instead, meaning a hop to the left or right. Or siderolls, which would require a new animation though :P
-
My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed. How it is you have to know the range of your spell so you can run away from the opponent to the limit of that range just to cast your spell before retreating again.
As for hybrids I don't have a problem with them. I was simply saying that after magic is improved we will most likely see many more of them. While I don't have a problem with them I don't want the game to be overrun by people like them.
-
My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed.
have a fighter take the blows while the mage hits it from afar. standing still while casting is not an issue.
-
My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed. How it is you have to know the range of your spell so you can run away from the opponent to the limit of that range just to cast your spell before retreating again.
Ahh, i understand. And I agree; hit&run doesn't support mages, but only fighters.
My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed.
have a fighter take the blows while the mage hits it from afar. standing still while casting is not an issue.
Basically I agree. But personally I'd like to see both 'classes' to be more accommodated. Sorry if i repeat myself, but the more i think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that a new movement system is in order to realize that goal. And the best movement I can think of, is the one I described above. I'll try to illustrate the whole idea a bit more...
Taking the focus-based movement as the fundament, some more additions to that (some of which I already mentioned).
1) Different spell casting speeds, depending on the powerslider.
2) Different movement speeds, depending on the chosen stance.
3) Attack combos, risky and taking a longer preparation, but a considerable option, when about to lose.
4) Sidesteps/rolls, to quickly evade the hit of the opponent.
5) Instant magic, not that powerful, but also a considerable option (buffs/debuffs).
6) Grabs, from which the opponent can get free from, either manually, or less complicated by stats (AGI, STR)
And now a little story including all that (badly written since I'm having a bad headache ;))
Both players move around, in a speed somewhere between walking and running. They keep a safety distance, not too far and not too close. One is a highskilled mage, the other one a highskilled fighter. Now the fighter decides to make a move, changes to an agressive stance, which makes him move a little, but noticeably faster. The mage notices that and quickly changes to a full defensive stance, which makes him move quite a bit slower, and easier to be approached, but knowing that his defense is good enough to survive the hit, in case it gets through. The fighter gets close enough and swings his sword, but his hit doesn't have much impact, only cuts 20% of the mage's health. He now changes to a full defensive stance and backs off slowly (by the way, full defensive shouldn't inflict a strike after X seconds). But the mage doesn't care, he casts an instant Realm3 spell, called Touch of SorrowTM, and the fighter's stats are being decreased by 40 for 1 minute. Now since the fighter is still backing off in full defensive stance, the mage takes the opportunity to summon a small fireball, which doesn't do too much damage (~10%), but is quickly casted and burns the fighter's armor badly (quality drop). Now the fighter is getting angry and changes to bloody stance, approaching the retreating mage and pushing him with the back to a wall. The mage sees no alternative and in the very last moment executes a sidestep, letting the fighter hit thin air (a combo being performed by the fighter would probably have been more sucessful in that situation). Now the mage strikes back and grabs the fighter from behind, trying to cut his throat with a dagger (Stats are now being compared). Since the fighter's stats are still lowered, the mage is able to inflict a bad, but non lethal would to the fighter, before having to release him again. The fighter's HP is now at 30%, the mage's is still at 80%. The fighter is now very careful in his movement, and keeps distance. In the meantime, the mage casts a Realm4 spell called Dweomer ShieldTM, which lets all damage done to him decrease his mana bar, instead of his health. Now the fighter sees no alternative and starts a very risky combo on normal stance, since there is no noticeable modification to his movement speed, so the mage does not know, that he is preparing the attack. Feeling on the safe side, the mage changes to a normal stance himself, but he started too late, the fighter has gotten close enough and hits him 3 times. The first blow decreased the mage's mana bar to 0, the second and third hit get his health down to 25%. But now the timing of the mage runs out and he hits the fighter and finally takes him down.
The end :P
The whole fight doesn't require too many keys, only steering and a handful of shortcuts. But in my humble opinion, such a fighting system is something I would adore, since it not only looks very much realistic, but also combines playerskill and characterskill to a whole new level of PvP ... at least in my head. ::) And yeah, I know that dwarves would have a struggle to grab someone to cut his throat, but the grab could look like jumping on the taller one's back. Oh well, all in all just my personal opinion of a good PvP system.
PS: The "TM" was just a joke, feel free to take them over :D
-
My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed. How it is you have to know the range of your spell so you can run away from the opponent to the limit of that range just to cast your spell before retreating again.
As for hybrids I don't have a problem with them. I was simply saying that after magic is improved we will most likely see many more of them. While I don't have a problem with them I don't want the game to be overrun by people like them.
Well, casting spells doesnt quite limit them to standing still-they can still walk without breaking the spell
-
Well, casting spells doesnt quite limit them to standing still-they can still walk without breaking the spell
have a fighter take the blows while the mage hits it from afar. standing still while casting is not an issue.
Both are true but the fact is it still remains an issue for one big reason. These are disadvantages to the mage yet there is no disadvantage to the fighter. Yes I can run away and cast a spell and yes I can walk and cast. However while I'm casting the fighter can easily run up and hit me. Even if I walk backwards chances are that the fighter will be able to catch up running. Secondly we have the problem of spell ranges. Some spells require you to be closer to the enemy, a few of them need you to be in touch range. While I'm casting I'll probably die because I have to walk up to the enemy to cast my spell, letting them hit me. When it comes to dueling some people can kill you in a couple of hits and my spell will never go through because I had to walk up to my opponent to cast it. Those with a shorter range just mean that the opponent has a better chance to catch up with me while I'm walking backwards and kill me. And then the fact that some spells are(or at least seem to be) underpowered only further adds to make it seem useless to even try.
In the end its a win for the warrior and still a loss for the mage no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it :P
As for your idea of a duel Rongar I must say I rather like it. Not because the mage won but because it sounded to me like a fight I could see myself actually role playing out. Thats another problem with pvp for me. I can't see myself actually trying to run back and forth to hit the opponent in an rp fight so it annoys me to have to do it in the actual pvp system. Of course thats just my personal issue ;D
-
One other thing that came to mind with all the talk about having things effect speed is the idea of different armor classes effecting how quick a person can move. It's seems to only make sense that a person wearing full heavy armor isn't going to be as quick as a person in lighter armor, after all, if the size of a weapon effects the swing speed, why wouldn't the weight of the armor effect one's physical speed? I can see this playing into the tactics of a mage vs. warrior battle and perhaps helping to balance things a bit, especially for a mage facing off against any warrior that prefers the heavier armors.
Another thought this discussion sparked for me is the idea of incorporating some type of block/dodge move (not just random dodges based on weapon/armor levels but, an actual hotkey-able action) for both warriors and mages. For example, the warrior's specific block move could be something like "parry" and based on their weapon skill while a mage's could be a spell that has the same effect but, is based on their magic skill in that particular way. This way, a mage could hopefully have a chance to block the very first charge of a warrior and then hit him with a few quick spells before he can even get another chance to swing. It would have to be a move/spell that occurred pretty much instantly and only lasted for a very brief moment but, I can see it being used effectively by anyone not quite as quick as their opponent.
-
I've been keeping an eye on this thread realy trying to decide just how to respond; I think I'll start with a couple of RL combat points...
Running at you oppenent gerneraly ends in you getting skewered;
Your out of controll, off balance, and unable to react properly to changes in the situaion. How to fix this? In my thoughts a "ready stance" from which you can properly charge* and attack your opponent and could be useable from a distance would be best. This would need to be set so that no actual attack attempt is made untill the character is within weapons range of the target; setting mobs not to respond to a ready stance untill the attacker is withing weapons range would also make this viable across the board.
Big weapon owns little weapon almost every time;
Sorry it's true; if I have a great sword and some idiot comes at me with a short sword or a dagger I'm going to cut them down long before they get within their striking distance. Currently in game this is not the case as all melee weapons apear to have the same range. The fix for this is a simple one though (in theory at least); simply implement a maximum and minimum range for each type of weapon. For example about 2 1/2 and 0 feet for a dagger, about 7 and 3 feet for a claymore and so on. This would add a much greater degree of depth and realism to dueling (not to mention be far more in character) than simply running at your opponent and trying to hit attack at the right time.
*Contrary to what Hollywood would have you belive you are not running reclesly twords your opponent when you charge them. No a charge is much more controlled than an open run; it should still lower your defence a little bit when you do so though.
-
One other thing that came to mind with all the talk about having things effect speed is the idea of different armor classes effecting how quick a person can move. It's seems to only make sense that a person wearing full heavy armor isn't going to be as quick as a person in lighter armor, after all, if the size of a weapon effects the swing speed, why wouldn't the weight of the armor effect one's physical speed? I can see this playing into the tactics of a mage vs. warrior battle and perhaps helping to balance things a bit, especially for a mage facing off against any warrior that prefers the heavier armors.
Yes and no...
The armor class itself shouldn't have an impact on your movement speed, rather on your AGI. What really should have an impact though, is the total weight you are carrying. Since heavy armor is - like the name presumes - quite some heavy, it will be a moderate disadvantage when it comes to weight, while the disadvantage is with the light armor, when it comes to protection. However, someone wearing light armor but packed with stuff shouldn't move faster than someone wearing heavy armor but nothing else in his pockets.
-
Well, the bug itself is fixed now. Everything seems to be how it was before. :flowers:
I also noticed one of my thoughts has found its way into the game.
1) Different spell casting speeds, depending on the powerslider.
That's neat, although I can't say if that effect was implemented way before I had the thought. At least I never noticed it before. Anyways, I think this thread has partially fulfilled its purpose, but I also think that more people should contribute to the discussion on how to better PvP&combat, since that is actually what Marqsaynt was aiming for.
First off, I am hoping this can be a constructive topic, no flaming, or "teh devs are trying to kill dueling!!111" comments please. I know this has been a hot topic in the past but, I am more interested in ideas on how both of these features (PvP dueling and Anti-Luring) can be improved and other rational comments and not hearing someone venting their frustrations about the new systems; there is a reason this thread is not in the complaint department section. ;)
Make sure you've read some of the other threads in the wishlist though, or else I see your posts getting deleted. ;)