I've looked at this thread a couple of times, few times started a reply, then cancelled it, since I didn't really know what to contribute, that hasn't been said already. But regardless of what has been said so far, I'll go on anyway now.
To begin with, a very good thread there, Marq, really appreciate it!
And many made some really good points, which I want to add my two cents to.
I know there are a lot of people out there that like to make the argument that any type of timing based dueling is not truly RP worthy since it doesn't base everything purely on IG character stats. There are two big problems I see with this argument though.
1. You don't learn to duel all by yourself or standing in front of an NPC. The timing based aspect has always brought players together to interact, train, and in many cases have loose master/apprentice relationships. In my mind the highest form of any truly RP game is having "real" people's characters interacting in a completely IC way. Since so much time is spent practicing with others or training under a "master" I would argue that these are in fact IC things learned... just because they don't show up as an OOC: "Dueling Skill: level 54" stat, doesn't make this any less true.
2. If dueling were made to be purely based on measurable character stats, then in many ways I can see the IG PS community being left open to pretty much the whims of any "leet" Power Leveler that has spent countless hours maxing his stats and knows he can pretty much push people around all he wants because he's the strongest. This seems to me to hinder RP, not add to it or even make it more realistic. After all, what is more realistic, standing in front of an NPC for hours on end that keeps dying and magically reappearing, or learning from another thinking person they're collected knowledge and fighting styles?
Totally agree. The one thing I really liked about dueling, is that the player had a certain impact on how a fight is executed. While many say, that playerskill shouldn't be involved in an RPG, I have to strongly disagree. An RPG doesn't exclude playerskill, since roleplay doesn't mean that the game is doing anything for you based on your skills. The very base of an RPG is simply playing a role. Monster slaying, leveling and such are only the most common pillars, but very often mistaken for the true spirit of an RPG, which is why so many games are being released under the catecory of RPG, just because the pillars are there, even without the base. To cut a long sotry short: Neither stats and skill, nor an AI doing things for you makes a game a roleplaying game, hence, playerskill to be involved shouldn't be demonized.
Further, I think some people don't really know what I'm refering to, when I say 'playerskill'. Playerskill doesn't mean how quick your fingers are, playerskill means the knowledge on how to approach a fight from a tactical point of view. It's just like you said, Marq, there are apprentices and there are masters. While I wouldn't say I am, or rather was a master of dueling, I had quite some students, which have becomes quite good and well known by now. But I wasn't giving them lessons in how to be faster with their keyboards, I've taught them the general proceeding of a fight, timing and tactic, which cannot be seen as OOC skills. In general it can be said, that when two fighters with about the same stats and skills meet, the smarter one wins, 'smarter' meaning more thoughtful and tactical. Now this can't really be something something to be frowned upon, can it?
As I hinted on a little before dueling really relys on the skill of the player, not the character. Its all about if you can press the attack button at the right time. So what if I rp to have an extremly skilled character in the sword and I've even trained him so? If I can't get the ooc attacking stuff down then I'll never be a good dueler regardless of what I rp. I'm not saying that learning to duel wasn't a great starter for rp it just wasn't, at least in my head, the best way to go. Its still possible to do these things, only on a more IC level. You can duel focusing more on tatics and IC attributes making it possible for everyone to win instead of saying I have really bad ping so there's no way I'll be able to hit on time.
The way dueling was before, playerskill and characterskill went hand in hand, which I think is the best system I've ever come across. The two skills complemented eachother perfectly, without the need to have both, in order to win a battle. Sure, a highskilled player has much brighter conditions to win against an underskilled player, but he doesn't necessarily have to be the better one. A high skilled player relying on character skill might loose against a low skilled player relying on character skill, but in my humble opinion, this is how it should be, or else we have the powerlevelers being the ones in charge of pwning other players. This is how most other MMORPGS are and certainly, they suck. However, a stable server and a good connection does have some influence on a duel in PS, but not as much as you think. I myself have a quite alright ping of 250-400 with a 16mbit line, but this doesn't mean I'm invulnerable. My former guild master Idoru, who has a ping of around 1000, is able to kick my rear end, because
his lag is
my lag aswell. If he is lagging on his side, I see him ghosting on my side, which makes it a fair game, even if luck has a bigger influence on the outgoing. However, the ping of a player doesn't determine his sucessrate in dueling, the impact is rather tiny.
When I first played this game (before I rped and before Duraza existed) I tried to learn dueling. I failed miserably. Every once in a while I've tried again with an alt, still doing as bad as the last time. There are people most likely who are in my same situation. Yet there are people who learn to rp all the time and end up being as good at it as anyone else.
To be honest, dueling shouldn't be too easy to begin with. At this point, I'd like to make the comparison to asian martial arts movies, so called easterns. There is most often a character who experienced a brutal injustice in the beginning of the movie, and then wants to take revenge. In most cases, this character has poor experience with fighting and fails miserably, but then stumbles upon a master of martial arts, and gets that master to teach him. This relationship between master and apprentice is - like Marqsaynt said - a very good base for roleplay in the first place, and having that sort of system prevents the uberskilled players from kicking ass just due to their characterskills. It does not only
not harm roleplay, it even creates situtations, roleplay can grow up from.
And honestly, dueling can be learned quite easily, if you have the right trainer. If you are still interested in learning it, I would be happy to be the one, who teaches you. And trust me, I have yet to come across someone, who is just hopeless in my eyes.
(Makes me once again think about opening a combative sports school
)
Hey Duraza,
I definitely agree with you that dueling has a steep learning curve, though not necessarily to the point it's impossible, just may take some people longer than others to pick up. But, I think you did bring up a good point, as it stands learning to fight PvP in PS takes quite a bit of effort, even to just be a decent dueler. Personally, I feel a good thing to aim for in the dueling system would be one that, as the old saying goes, "is easy to learn but, difficult to master." Right now we only have half that. I wish I could think of some ideas on how to achieve that but, all i can think up right now is maybe if attack animations were made to correspond with the timing of the weapon a character was swinging it'd be a bit easier. At least with something like that there'd be some kind of visual cue also tied to the timing aspect.
Well spoken, Marq, but from my point of view, the PvP system of PS was just how you described; easy to learn, but difficult to master. Movement and timing is quite easy to learn, but advanced techniques is what makes the difference between a decent dueler and a really good dueler. I personally saw nothing wrong with hit&run, or dash'n'slash how you call it. It was fun to learn and to apply, since you learned from each and every fight. The learning curve is not solid though, it depends on those who teach it, rather than those who learn it. If taught right, one can be one of the best duelers within a few weeks, yet with some space to the top, since true masters never stop learning.
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Now to the enhancement of the PvP system. You can tell I liked the system how it was before, so I can't wait until it got reverted. However, the previous system still had some flaws, which the fix of those should be the first goal in upgrading PvP.
1) Instant hits - A totally unfair method of bypassing weapon timing. If you know how to do it, you could win almost any fight. I myself know how to do it, and fortunately also how to prevent it from happening in 95% of the cases, but I never used it on purpose, since it's just dishonorable to win a fight using this method, which is why I always OOC'ly apologize whenever I did it by mistake.
2) Facing rule - Somewhat borked, because sometimes you can count the hairs in your opponent's nose, but still get the message to face him in order to hit, and other times you stab him backwards. This might due to server lag (not client lag), so I would once again supplicate for a wider radius for the facing rule (or alternatively a more stable server
).
Further, some ideas, that could probably improve the PvP system.
1) Although I like the ability to freely run around while in a duel, I could also think of a movement system based on Zelda, Fable, or Jade Empire (if there are some console gamers around
). The combat system there mainly makes you focus your opponent, while the camera follows him so he stays in focus. Your character then pretty much patters around the opponent. This would actually give room for some non slashing options, such as getting behind the opponent and grabbing him, or casting some quick magic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHMgIVBUj1chttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7RHi06dhaMAnyway, since these games use real time combat, it will be a challenge to modify it to fit with the semi realtime combat PS is currently using, but I think it could be done and certainly become the best combat system ever
2) Balance magic and weapons. Most spells are still weak and don't really give any advantage over your opponent. Especially buffs are currently not really an option, simply because they take quite some time to be casted, don't really give a noticeable advantage and wear off way too fast. A skilled mage should be able to cast a strength buff, that adds like 40 to STR for about 2 minutes or something.
3) Add quick side steps or rolls, to dash away from the opponents' strike. They could cost quite a bit of stamina, let's say 10-20%, so people aren't doing it all the time.
4) Like Marqsaynt said, slashing animations to match with the weapon timing. I know it is planned for the future, nevertheless I wanted to mention it.
5) Shields. Again, I know it's planned for the future, but still.
6) Combos. In addition to the different stances, there could be slashing combos; left, right, spin, right. Not to be done in real time with hitting various buttons, but like I said, as an addition to stance changes. /attackcombo bloody and your char performs the combo all by himself. Such a combo would raise the chances to hit, but also be very risky and stamina draining and could take a longer preparation. A 3-hit-combo with shortswords would then take 6 seconds instead of 2, for example.
Try to picture a fight with the improvements above. 2 players carefully surrounding eachother, trying to get a hit in, without being hit themselfs, dashing away (and delaying the other one's camera focus), casting some magic, keeping distance, preparing the next hit, going in... And all that without many keys. Such a system would once again combine playerskill and characterskill, easy to learn, but difficult to master.
Well then, just my opinion of a good PvP system. Flame on... no, don't
