PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: tadill on November 24, 2007, 08:51:44 pm
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ok people the madness needs to stop on one hand we have xillix preachin to everyone to help the newbie that I agree with totally but this crafting swords system is so broken there is no basis for it. First when starting the newbie should be able to make something better than harn sells 51 to 55 q as they level the quality of their work should also increase and no I am not sayin that they should be able to make a 300q sword right off the bat. But that crafting should be more like metallurgy at say you level up by 5 the sword quality should also that would get more newbies interested in doin crafting as the system now stands it still seems like luck. There is no such thing as luck when you make something. As you hit the higher levels you should be able to make swords out of other metals bring back platinum but make the ncp pay so little for it that it would be worth nothing to the miners but let those who can make a 300q blade be able to work it also after the player gets so high in crafting let them to be able to use the glyphs to add magic to the swords. if the crafting system was more definate you could tell a newbie that if the work was put to it they could do it . the rping will come along naturally if the newbies interest keeps them arround and the older rpers start to include them in the rp
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First when starting the newbie should be able to make something better than harn sells
I read that far and just laughed. That really makes no sense.
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First when starting the newbie should be able to make something better than harn sells
I read that far and just laughed. That really makes no sense.
Agreed thats like saying (useing a certain other game as an example) that in that game a player should be able to make rune items just starting out.
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I read that far and just laughed. That really makes no sense.
well as much as you might say that it makes no sense it does the current crafting system only appeals to a powerleveler not to someone who might want to rp so yes it must be lightened to start this game is supposed to be for rping one should not have to spend time powerleveling to get somewhere lets face it there is only so much rping that one can do while beating on a anvil for 4 hrs straight just to gain one level in bs and sword making and they see no improvment in their final sword. tho I have not tryed the axe making it is probley the same all I am sayin is the mechanics of the game should be as good as the rping of the game sure there will be powerlevelers but they will not stay the rpers however will
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It makes no IC sense for a person who has never smithed before to be better at it than the person who teaches all the smiths in Hydlaa.
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Please, tadill, could you use some punctuation marks? It's very hard to read for a non-native english speaker (and I'm sure for a native, too)
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It makes no IC sense for a person who has never smithed before to be better at it than the person who teaches all the smiths in Hydlaa.
umm wrong before you can even start crafting you work for harn there are several quests that you must do before you even get the book to start crafting. and then harn tells you that you must get training from him. before you can do anything. other quests also show us that harn does not sell his finest to just anyone.
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Yes, but if an absolute idiot with minimum training could make better than what he sold then no one would buy from him, and in consequence no one would want to be trained by the guy with crappy swords. It makes no sense.
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Yes, but if an absolute idiot with minimum training could make better than what he sold then no one would buy from him, and in consequence no one would want to be trained by the guy with crappy swords. It makes no sense.
hmmm I have never heard harn lay claim to producing the massive amounts of swords that he sells and why would a master craftsman even sell his finest work to common folk they could not afford it several quest do revel that harn has many apprentices who produce goods for him so once you are ready to start to craft you should be able to make a basic weapon. because what master would allow his apprentice to work at his forge? and produce less than the basic quality . I think not
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You are saying that the basic quality someone not trained makes should be higher than that of said apprentices and that no one would sell items less than basic quality. Thats a paradox.
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no because to even begin you have allready trained with harn. now I must ask when was the last time you have played this game? your replies seem to me of one who has not played in quite a while. I think you might want to create a new char and play this once to see the more current changes in the game also to see how much background the devs have added to it. as I have said everything is there to say that it is not only possible but more probable that one should be making a better blade than harns basic ones. also we should not forget all those magical looted blades that thieves carry and are looted by players. who made them again we must see that they are made by harn or trasok . they are the better blades that only the rich can afford.
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You are saying that the basic quality someone not trained makes should be higher than that of said apprentices and that no one would sell items less than basic quality. Thats a paradox.
The quaility made by someone untrained is higher than what Harnquist or Trasok sell.
Brand new character with level 0 in all jobs. Q136 stock and Q188 ingots and I made a Q53 sabre. Higher quality than what Harnquist or Trasok sell. The sabres also hit a little harder than the short swords either of those 2 sell. Next was made with Q300 stock and Q300 ingots. Final sword was a Q74 sabre.
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hmm...I've noticed some differences with levels gained.
maybe harn and trasok should sell several qualities? or maybe...they sell decent weapons, like q100, and they also sell all the different weapons players sell to them. there should also be a price change based on quality...both for selling and buying
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well as much as you might say that it makes no sense it does the current crafting system only appeals to a powerleveler
As far as that is concerned:
http://hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=611&histring=crafting
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I'm all for the more... powerleveler folk... being the blacksmiths. If you don't have lots of time to spend idly pounding the anvil, be a metallurgist, or a miner, or whatever new profession comes along. We don't need more users of material, we need more suppliers of it.
But Harnquist tells you, 'Oh-ho, I have to charge you for training now, because you're on track to be my competitor here!'
That means he crafts stuff.
And if he trains you, that means he knows more than you do. So... Harn/Tras need to sell better stuff, I guess.
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I'm all for the more... powerleveler folk... being the blacksmiths. If you don't have lots of time to spend idly pounding the anvil, be a metallurgist, or a miner, or whatever new profession comes along.
I just trained sword making from level 17 to 18. I had to hammer 120 times. At 60 seconds per hammer and allow a couple of seconds to realise that hammering has finished, you are up to 2 hours of doing nothing but hammering just for one level. Multiply this by 2 as I started today at level 16. Add a bit more time for any breaks and all I have done today is hammer.
I'll make a test blade tomorrow sometime so see what difference if any those levels have made. My last 2 blades were a 101 & 112.
In some ways the new person asking for help was a nice change.
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no because to even begin you have allready trained with harn. now I must ask when was the last time you have played this game? your replies seem to me of one who has not played in quite a while. I think you might want to create a new char and play this once to see the more current changes in the game also to see how much background the devs have added to it. as I have said everything is there to say that it is not only possible but more probable that one should be making a better blade than harns basic ones. also we should not forget all those magical looted blades that thieves carry and are looted by players. who made them again we must see that they are made by harn or trasok . they are the better blades that only the rich can afford.
Unless Harn doesn't train his apprentices properly or asks them to mess things up then the things he sells should be better than someone with level one crafting. You don't have to play a frickin' game (which I do quite a bit by the way) to know that. Its common sense. Straight forward logic.
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Actually Harnquist likely sells those of his apprentice's weapons that are of sufficient quality to not tarnish his reputation and melts down the rest. I would guess that he rarely makes the weapons he sells and uses his time training and on working master quality weapons for special orders such a Vresa's. I think it might be good for his weapons to have a 10-15 level random difference of quality says from 42/42 to 57/57. Another option for him might be a quality selector which appears in the buy screen so you can see his selection at a certain quality/price. I guess I am drifting off topic though.
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Actually Harnquist likely sells those of his apprentice's weapons that are of sufficient quality to not tarnish his reputation and melts down the rest.
That is even more reason for complete beginners in the industry to make better than whats sold.
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actually harn is not that high of a master since you only train with him to level 20 then you have to goto the winch area
and to oja to continue your training. the current system is against the RPer who chooses to do crafting. this is one area of the economy that would help balance the game. also not make a RPer a slave to the anvil. I thought this game was supposed to give a real world to the roleplayer a place where you could say you do something and actually do it
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So Harn has sufficient knowledge to train as far as 20. That means that his swords should be equaled in quality by someone that isn't even at level 1 according to your argument. If that is not what you meant then what you said is of no relevance.
As for the rest of your comment, if one were a more competent smith than Harn's apprentices without even being a smith then it would be impossible to rp learning to be a smith since you would already be better than those working for the person with the monopoly over Hydlaa. If his weapons are so basic then he could not stay afloat as a business. Also, I don't see how starting out being better than other people possibly improves an rping experience.
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I do not see any problem with a high master just teaching beginner skills. His mastery might be unorthodox and he does not want to give away any of his secrets. Also it is possible that he will train a future level not yet implemented to those of sufficient expertise. A complete beginner's product would likely be among those that gets melted down as not fit to be marketed. So no Parallo it is not more reason.
By the way, in speaking of Harnquist's apprentices I am really referring to those pcs who under his tutelage. He may well have current npc students but until one is implemented they can be ignored.
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He said that that which is on sale should be less than the worst smith can make so, yes it is more reason against that.
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So Harn has sufficient knowledge to train as far as 20.
His knowledge to train as far as 20 and no further isn't an indication of his incompetence, but rather his philosophy with regard to training others. He chooses to spend his time teaching people the basics, as opposed to teaching those who know more advanced things. Do people choose to teach elementary school instead of high school because they're less competent? (Rhetorical question: let's not derail this thread any further than it's gone.)
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As for the rest of your comment, if one were a more competent smith than Harn's apprentices without even being a smith then it would be impossible to rp learning to be a smith since you would already be better than those working for the person with the monopoly over Hydlaa. If his weapons are so basic then he could not stay afloat as a business. Also, I don't see how starting out being better than other people possibly improves an rping experience.
Harn's weapons are basic. A 50/50 weapon is the base model. Mostly the only thing worse is something that is worn from use. A person with level 0 blacksmith and level 0 sword making can make better swords than what Harnquists sells. He does not sell the good stuff to the public. Neither does Trasok. Either their appentices are no good or they only sells us the rejects.
Once I worked out the deal with quality vs damage I gave up on store bought weapons and have only used crafted since. Even a Q60 will hit slightly harder and last longer than what you can buy from a npc. What the player market needs is the new and low level players to realise they can get better than most looted or what a npc will sell them.
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Once I worked out the deal with quality vs damage I gave up on store bought weapons and have only used crafted since. Even a Q60 will hit slightly harder and last longer than what you can buy from a npc. What the player market needs is the new and low level players to realise they can get better than most looted or what a npc will sell them.
I try to sell some of my 60-80Q swords out at bargain prices, sometimes, to do just that: (hopefully) introduce the new people to crafted weapons quality. (but sometimes i'm sure it's more experienced players that scoop them up for the price.... maybe i need a new approach to that...)
But then.... i also make my own stocks, so i can afford to do that, in a way, more than someone else who needs to buy their stocks...
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So you are saying that the swords Harnquist makes are some sort of perplexing bend in the physical laws of Yliakum because they are worse than the worst swords that anyone can make. Am I the only one that sees a problem with Harnquist selling swords that are so bad an idiot with no training can't help but make better ones?
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Levels are not the only important factors when it comes to crafting, the resource quality and tools used also count, aside from a bit of luck. Right now someone with a pretty low level (0-5) can equal Harnquist's work. Not because of their skill but by using the high quality stock that is available. Using low quality stock and depending only on their skill, they'll produce worse weapons.
What needs to happen is the NPC prices of weapons have to rise to be more representative for the work spent to craft such a weapon, that way a crafter can make some decent tria. Essentially, the same effort spent doing any profitable task in-game should yield more or less the same amount of tria and PP on a similar skill level. Last time I checked Devs are working on balancing things out so let them work and then re-evaluate what they did. :P
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How about taking the npcs out of the business?
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I wouldn't mind that .. though I would keep them around for buying up everything. Else we just get a whole lot of junk everywhere. :P
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/me makes 100 crappy swords and throws them all over.
I am serious, what do people think?
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How about taking the npcs out of the business?
Go for it. I think it should mean more bussiness even for the low end crafters. More money changing hands instead going to a npc and not seen again. Watch there be much complaining. If the npc stop selling swords I promise not to complain. :)
Really, I won't complain this time. I would like to see how it goes if players have to rely on other players for weapons. Even crafted stuff in general.
Zan, I have noticed that quality of materials seems to affect the quality of the final product now. My test character is up to level 1 blacksmith and level 1 sword making from the previous 2 swords. This time I used Q20 stock and Q52 ingots. Made a Q50 sabre. Rubbish materials, no skill and still matched what the npc sell.
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/me ponders for a bit.
Harn makes a ton of quickly made swords of low quailty. This does not say he is a bad smith. It simply means he is filling the demand for a lot of weapons in a hurry. A finely crafted sword takes a -long- time to smith, and would cost a -lot- more, and there would be far fewer of them.
So, I would make Harn craft the same way people do. Offer crappy stuff more often, and also high quality that would smoke -any- player's crafts out there. But, have him run out of both at a reasonable rate. Instead of having an unlimited inventory, Harn would only make a very limited number of items per day. Would he buy other's crafted items? For scrap price, maybe. Blacksmiths are notoriously prideful in their own work. Take your garbage elsewhere. A pawn shop would be a good place for that, and to buy items crafted by other players.
Actually, I don't think you should even be able to buy high quallity items off Harn or Trasok without putting in an order, giving him a down-payment, and waiting a week or more.
No one should ever be able to walk up to a smith and buy more than ten swords in a day, per day. He just would not have that many.
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mm, that's an excellent point. Although it would slow the flow of gameplay, and turn away some new players with the "difficulty". We all know the argument, if they're turned away they should'nt be playing, but even in MMORPGS that are more "realistic" than others, there are some things that just have to remain unrealistic, in my opinion.
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Alright, how about this then?
NPCs won't sell anything of their own anymore (assuming the item in question can be made by players of course). Instead we players can supply NPCs like Harnquist with weapons.
Blacksmith X makes a dozen short swords and goes to Harnquist with them. Harnquist buys them from X for a nice fee and then displays them in his store for sale to others.
NPCs just act like the middleman, that way we can still buy items when no crafters are online but what we're buying is playermade. Ideally this should work like the supply and demand system I've seen in the game "Guild Wars". When short swords are rare, the NPC doesn't have any left, then he'll buy them at a pretty high price. When he is overburdened with dozens of short swords however he'll pay much less for yet a few more.
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It makes no IC sense for a person who has never smithed before to be better at it than the person who teaches all the smiths in Hydlaa.
hmmmm
well, having worked in a forge IRL (the Chaos forge while it was still in Phoenix Arizona), I got rather proficient at making swords (if you call the crude, soft blades I made swords).. still, one has to take into account that making a good blade takes time, skill and practice (lots of practice).
also, as a member of the SCA (Society for Creative Anarchronisms), I am well versed it certain types of role play. this game is roleplay (not to its extreme).
one last note: have any of you ever bothered to watch those around you and how they act? An interesting learning experience that is.
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I have used my ‘Nature Intuition’ spell on both Harnquist and Trasok and guess what: they are frauds!!! totally deprived of any skill. I think they secretly buy weapons from players and sell them to others for a profit, claiming they made them themselves
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I dont think the weapons harnquist and trasok make should be taken out just yet, unless we have a better place for newbies to get their first weapons. often, they dont even know what crafteds are. sure, they go through the tutorial now, but all that tells them is how to make molten iron and a few basics later on.
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Of course one of the rewards for the tutorial is a weapon but it will need to be replaced soon enough. I think instead of removing the weapons from the npcs they should just specialize more. Instead of having a laundry list they should have just one or two kinds for sale, perhaps of different qualities. They might also take special orders for a large sum as suggested previously for the highest quality weapons.
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I think removing the blades from ncps is a great idea. this would stop all the tria from being dumped into nothing. but still allow them to buy the looted weapons. prehaps then harn could start selling armor. untill that is implemented
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I dont think the weapons harnquist and trasok make should be taken out just yet, unless we have a better place for newbies to get their first weapons. often, they dont even know what crafteds are. sure, they go through the tutorial now, but all that tells them is how to make molten iron and a few basics later on.
Newbies can get their first weapon from the Tutorial if they chose it. Maybe widen the tutorial rewards to include the weakest weapon from all types though.
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actually harn is not that high of a master since you only train with him to level 20 then you have to goto the winch area
and to oja to continue your training. the current system is against the RPer who chooses to do crafting. this is one area of the economy that would help balance the game. also not make a RPer a slave to the anvil. I thought this game was supposed to give a real world to the roleplayer a place where you could say you do something and actually do it
A slave to the anvil you say? It is hard building skill, especially in something like sword making. Traditionally, if you were apprenticed to a blacksmith you'd start at a very young age, and spend the first few years as an apprentice not even touching the anvil. You'd haul coal, work the bellows, fetch raw metals, anything the master required. Then once, you had done that for quite some time, you would start making nails, lots of nail... more nails that you can shake a stick at, and even more nails. Then you'd graduate on to horseshoes. then other household or farm item. then maybe knives... not daggers, not swords, knives. then maybe daggers. all this time, you've been a slave to the forge, and the anvil, and the master, and the journeymen above you.
Every time you "moved up" in the world, you would have to prove your skills to the master. If you failed, too bad, back to the billows with you.
In short, I think being a slave to the anvils is realistic.