PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Velh Krome on January 14, 2008, 08:16:08 am
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Since its to read in one of those books in Jayose's, Enkidukai are generally divided into six packs, easily to recognize by the fur's patterns. It is also said that members of the different packs "do not like to intermarry too much".
If they dont like to intermarry among packs, would an Enki even marry one of another race?
Besides one could wonder if "not too much" would not automatically mean there already have to exist many Enkidukai apparently not belonging to a certain pack (by interbreeding in advance) or if such "Mixeds" would get killed or at least get disowned - does it make sense then at all, when for instance an Enki-lady is about to marry, lets say, an Ylian, settingwise?
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I was asking myself the same questions, Velh. Glad you posted this.
One thought I had about the whole interspecies marriage thing was that if, for example, a fenki and a Ylian married and had a baby enkidukai... wouldn't the baby inherit it's race traits exclusively from it's enkiduaki mother? So, if any enki offspring that would result from this type of marriage would yield a enki with the same clan markings as it's enki parent, it seems to me that there may not be any problem at all. *shrugs*
Anyway, hopefully a kind-hearted settings dev will come along and set the whole matter straight. :)
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It is also said that members of the different packs "do not like to intermarry too much".
Methinks "too much" is the operative phrase
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So can I assume if an Enkidukai would marry members of other packs or even races, that one is to be considered unusual, and looked at with frowns (or even contempt by very conservative pack members) by his own pack and/or whole race?
And:
Is it the same thing with interbreedings of packs, that offsprings would never show mixed traits but are resulting in one pure one (aiming for the fur-pattern here)?
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How does this reluctance square with the whole no racism thing in PS? It would seem to go against the grain. Is it really only between species discrimination that is outlawed and within a species anything goes?
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Well, you can't really outlaw reluctance to marry another race/clan. You can outlaw direct discrimination, but you can't say, "Hey, not enough of your clan have intermarried with other clans... get to it." Unless of course, you're running a totalitarian regime... in which case you do whatever you want.
It seems to me that while I'm interested in finding out the answer to this question as well, it will, unfortunately, have little effect on people who RP. One problem of less experienced RPers is that they feel the need to always be the "exception." So even if you said "most people don't do such-and-such," you'd still have tons of people going out there saying, "Well, I'm the exception." That would be fine, except so many people do it that it becomes the rule. Case in point, even though Enkidukai aren't supposed to be thrilled about intermarriage if you ask anyone about it, they'll tell you their case is "special" for some reason or other.
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it is one thing to want to marry like with like, and another to go into racism. Racism is not an issue when one is looking soley at mating. I have always felt that each race has its genital differences that kind of make for difficulties in inter racial children - hence why there are no half-breed races backed by the Settings Team.
I would say there will always be acceptions in love.
My character for instance, is not attracted to anything other than Enkidukai, and when she speaks of Pure Blood, she speaks really of closest to her original clan...
But, I am not about to burst other's bubbles who like to RP relationships across races in game - which is odd in Lolitra's eyes... but understandable as love is something she does have an understanding of.
Racism is nothing to do with compatability, it is to do with how one acts on ones preconceived ideals about that compatability, i.e. taking a nasty stance against another, just because they are different.
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As far as the law goes I would suspect it is a broad inter-species thing as the average person would likely not realize there was any real difference between branches of another race. If a Kran grew up in Ojaveda he would likely be well aware of the significance of the different clans of Enkidukai but he might not be aware that a Stonebreaker was different from a Hammerweilder. If he was really bright and thoughtful he might consider it a possibility but would not know for sure unless someone who knew told him definitively.
This brings another consideration to mind and that is whether the octarchal classes, being hereditary, are heterogeneous between the races or if they belong to a sub-section of the possible races. I do not recall seeing anything about this but it might shed light on the nature of the racism laws. I suppose that is a topic for another thread as it bears only passing relevance to the subject at hand.
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Is it the same thing with interbreedings of packs, that offsprings would never show mixed traits but are resulting in one pure one (aiming for the fur-pattern here)?
Yes.
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Racism or not.. assuming Enkis to be, think and behave like that sort of gives them a feature, and to be honest it just make them more interesting to me. In contrast, every race being quite much equal in everything to any other race.. erm, so why to choose different races again? Kran marry Ynnwn and being the wisemen, Klyros the brute, super-muscled double-handed axe wielders? Ok, the latter goes offtopic, but it should clear up what I think about it:
Have your char have weak spots and by that make him interesting and attractive! Enkidukai usually not intermarry would also give the apparently only eye-candy purpose of their different furs a real reason. It would make their whole story and background interesting.
Racism or not, to ban all intolerance would lead to nothing but a completely homogen soup: races only differentiate in their appearance.
Why having apparently different races if one must not state with defined things that they ARE different? Or is it racism already? Hope that no-racism-rule will soften and provide more sense by that.
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Racism:
- A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
- Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
... now where do you see a sexual preference of one species over another fit into this definition? I'm not particularly attracted to black or oriental women ... does that mean I hate them or think they're inferior as a race? Nope, it just means my sexual preferences tend to stay closer to home ... though I have to say women with some exotic and caucasian heritage can be pretty dang sexy. ;D Anyway, sexual or romantic preferences are not a cause of racism, they can be a result but don't need to be related at all. It's more likely a result of biology and culture.
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Since its to read in one of those books in Jayose's, Enkidukai are generally divided into six packs, easily to recognize by the fur's patterns. It is also said that members of the different packs "do not like to intermarry too much".
If they dont like to intermarry among packs, would an Enki even marry one of another race?
Besides one could wonder if "not too much" would not automatically mean there already have to exist many Enkidukai apparently not belonging to a certain pack (by interbreeding in advance) or if such "Mixeds" would get killed or at least get disowned - does it make sense then at all, when for instance an Enki-lady is about to marry, lets say, an Ylian, settingwise?
I guess this is because packs like to stay pure. Naturally animals do that. You won't often see two different packs of wolves interbreeding, which is due to competition for food and such things. If all the wolves roamed together without separating themselves, they'd run out of resources, overpopulate, and quickly die off.
That does not apply for interspecie marriage since other races probably did not develop like Enkidukais did. Enkis have a more tribal culture since they may have had to compete for resources in their desert-like surrounding, which led to different packs. With different histories and cultures for each pack, they could like to stay pure to their packs to preserve those.
I'm just taking a scientifical/culturalistic approach to this.
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I'd say Amen to that.
What I wonder concerning the topic though is: Okay, enkis intermarry now and then (ingame: probably most players dont care), hence they arent rascist (or thus). Now, if no one else cares, or must care, that attribute is without sense and can be dropped anyway. If one does care, like he reacts with despise on an interracially mixed enki couple, that would be rascism, no? You could flip pennies now and say, that despise wouldnt necessarily have to be based on feelings of superiority but for instance on some odd fear of having his own race to be vanished.
However, the latter one probably would be considered a rascist - but whats worth the play and the whole feature, if one must not react on it consequently and in all facets?
Add to Raas:
Scientifical approach is a bit vague I daresay, as in nature interracial couples are more of the .. rare case, no? And if a pack-member leaves that 'tribe', the traditions and the whole lifestyle, quitting to transport it to offsprings, wouldnt one consider that a threat to the entire pack, having the pack surrendering in the end that is?
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I took the whole thing to mean that Enkis generally don't marry those of other races. I missed the part about the packs not even intermarrying too much but this will make RP more interesting since Illysia's parents are from two different packs. ;D But I think that this goes along with the somewhat distrustful nature of Enkis. I interpret this as Enkis believing that others won't understand their way of life and that even applies to other Enki packs. After all, whenever people interact there is always the potential for the other person to look at you like you grew another head because they just don't get you or something about you. Maybe Enkis have less patience for explaining themselves.
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/me coughs "hey Velh are you saying there is an enki you have your eye on, and you want to know if this will be accepted by the community?'
*ducks* haha sorry had to :)
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Umm soo .... since when was marriage necessary for procreation?
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It is a mix of tradition and finding members of their own 'stripes' more attractive.
Take me for example. I like red or brown hair, but don't like blond at all. I find certain shades of skin attractive, others not at all. And I don't like the look of Enkis at all, no matter what colors they have.
Tradition fits in the same. Parents can have nothing against other groups of people, but still naturally and even instinctively want their children to grow up and partner with someone who looks more like themselves. Tradition puts a face on that. How many times have you heard mention of a Southern person saying they want their son to "Marry a nice Southern girl."? It is not that they don't like 'northerners', it is ingrained into their beliefs that things are just better and meant to be that way.
I would like to point out now that each pack has different traditions. They are not all the same. Some packs may be more aggressive minded, others might be partial to higher society. That plays a large role as well.
Lastly, there is the factor that if someone partners up outside of their own 'group', that group will often see that as saying that person thinks they are too good for them, thus putting pressure to stay inside the group.
Rich marry the rich, poor the poor, this to this, that to that, stripes to stripes, and spots to spots. Right or wrong, that is the general way of things.
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*shockedly gestures Izzy to shut up!;)*
Seriously though, to consider reallife comparisons cant really work. For that the setting is much too restricted on being "tolerant" and "cosy", avoiding trouble by all means, to say it provokingly. As there was no answer that really could light up the way these matters have to be involved into individual's play, and as there seems to be a conflict between accepting given details consequently and the whole racism rules, I guess I am going to play on as before - ignoring it until something clear is brought by the setting-team.
unfortunately, have little effect on people who RP
In general I have to agree, sadly. But if people had a clear picture of how its meant to be, at least few willing to roleplay such, could do.
My suggestion: Create anything that gets players become more aware of those packs, other than its just a matter of fur's pattern, personal player's taste while char creation that is. For instance, in Oja set up small groups of enkidukai of the same pack, here 3 Kores, 4 Rabani there, maybe add NPC-sentences like "x glances at the group of the other pack". Add few quests that mention the difference of packs. As GMs apparently are low on number I wont suggest anything related to that;)
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Who is Vleh?! ... ;)
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lol you know Izzy is not the .. most accurate typer!
* chuckles impishly and sneaks away to avoid the "catwoman's" wrath*
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What are you asking exactly?
A justification to play racist themes out in ps?
I would like to answer but I think we have already been clear.
A preference or historical precedent for a race sticking to its own does not insinuate racial superiority as much as solidarity.
There are reasons for the outlawing of racism both story driven and pragmatic.
Once things were more chaotic, races fought over limited resources or segregated themselves, the octarchy brought yliakum together to cooperate against external forces.
You will discover more of this in time.
For now our best advice if one wants to play within settings is to take the words of the books into consideration when making your story, we cannot both write and in interpret the tales we add to the game for you, some of that is the player's job.
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Thanks for trying to clear it up Xilix.
What I wonder is, how to approach Enkis who apparently left their pack.
Example:
I have a Kore char and play it that way that it's bound to the pack by whatever reason, traditions and such. That char also fully supports, protects and defends that thought of transporting tradition by sticking to the pack.
How would that char handle a "traitor" then, one who doesnt even give a heck on other packs, Enkidukai and whatnot? I mean, is it even okish to call it "traitor"? After all those ones are meant to be the minority and should be an usual appearance?
If "traitors" and pack-members would be treated the same way, be welcomed always with open arms, what would leaving the pack make a difference then, as one can always join the old pack for an ale in the Broken Door?
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I think light or offhand remarks would be fine for rping, traitor is going a bit far.
What I don't want to see under any circumstances is it turning into a movement, people in oja shouting "Kore Power, Kore Power." Any such display would raise the attention of the Octachy and certainly be quelled harshly.
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By the way ... is there already any out-of-game display of the different race skins? If not, we should possibly add a chapter to the Wiki...
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we do have this http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/605/enkidukaipackset5.jpg
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Not yet really complete. But developing. :) -- But where do the Clamod live? ... Xillix!
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Sorry Velh, fixed my typo..actually I did that just to see if anyone would even notice...*coughs* erm yeah... Nice catch LigH.
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Izzy you know theres no need to sorry :flowers:
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I think light or offhand remarks would be fine for rping, traitor is going a bit far.
What I don't want to see under any circumstances is it turning into a movement, people in oja shouting "Kore Power, Kore Power." Any such display would raise the attention of the Octachy and certainly be quelled harshly.
Which, would cause the rest of the land to rise up in rebellion against the Octarchy and establish a new social hierarchy in which Lemurs are at the top and everyone else panders to their whims.
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/me <-- can't wait
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we have Pandas in PlaneShift now?
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(http://www.wowwiki.com/images/3/32/Pandaren.jpg)
sincerely,
next WoW expansion
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sincerely,
next WoW expansion
Thats impossible, pandas don't have a shaman class... Hax!
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I read that a large group of the clamod intermarried with the rabani centuries ago, and that this "has caused a variation in their fur." Also, that the two clans have been at odds, since apparently this was not sanctioned by clan leaders. (The document I get this from is fairly...ancient and inaccurate, though.)
My characters (the Kaelis) come from mixed clans, and I've clearly stated that in their descriptions—so other Enkidukai who have an eye for this would be able to tell. Personality-wise, I've played that many more traditional enkidukai tend to look down on them; Nilaya feels more at home in Hydlaa than Ojaveda, etc. Comments about clan "purity" make them uncomfortable.
But I've never seen anyone else play this, and I've been curious about the same thing.
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I read that a large group of the clamod intermarried with the rabani centuries ago, and that this "has caused a variation in their fur." Also, that the two clans have been at odds, since apparently this was not sanctioned by clan leaders. (The document I get this from is fairly...ancient and inaccurate, though.)
My characters (the Kaelis) come from mixed clans, and I've clearly stated that in their descriptions—so other Enkidukai who have an eye for this would be able to tell. Personality-wise, I've played that many more traditional enkidukai tend to look down on them; Nilaya feels more at home in Hydlaa than Ojaveda, etc. Comments about clan "purity" make them uncomfortable.
But I've never seen anyone else play this, and I've been curious about the same thing.
Most enkidukai my character meets don't even know enki language, let alone the history of their pack. I'm trying to encourage more of this, not to the point of racism, but just enough so that its noticed. - Like what lolitra said a few posts back. Just a comment here or there about it.
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I found a book which explains the six main packs and dsars. So there is a Sarraghi pack too. Which means that the Clamod must live especially in the Mills dsar.
The PS Wiki contains now an overview over the Enkidukai packs and related furs... except for the unpublished Sarraghi pack. How will they look -- snow white, or maybe colorful red?
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I have it on good authority that they are pink with purple poka-dots.
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Purple with green stripes.
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Pfffft no way .....
Blue with orange highlights and silver lining.
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Pfffft no way .....
Blue with orange highlights and silver lining.
You're right, that is better.
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Pfffft no way .....
Blue with orange highlights and silver lining.
every enki has a silver lining?
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Settings wise, races do not mix genetically. When a baby is born, is bears either the race and traits of the father or most likely, those of the mother. Furthermore, logic-wise, as Lolitra pointed out very well, some races are naturally incompatible for breeding purposes.
Now, like some people concluded, there are even more reasons which add to that. Sticking to Enkindukai and packs, although it very well applies to every race, a non-comprehensive list of these reasons are: social upbringing, social acceptance, conformity, traditions.
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hmmm have thought about this subject a lot aswell.
How precice would your markings be and how much could your markings change. I mean are there only six packs in Yliakum or are the packs simply divided into six groups. I mean I was thinking of a pack being about the size of 20 to 50 enkidukais max seeing any larger wouldn't be logical to be formed in nature. Then it would seem more logival for there to be more then 6 packs.
I think that would mean the markings, eventhough the overall fur remains in one of the six groups, could change becuase of interbreeding marking a "new" pack.
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I'm still curious to know how an Enkidukai can bear the child of that of another race.
Since they're cat-like, would they have a litter of kittens? And with it being interracial, would they have a litter of humans...?
That just seems weird to me.
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Maybe you should spend some more time in the library, Suno ;)
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Maybe you should spend some more time in the library, Suno ;)
Why, are there a lot of Enkidukai giving birth to other races there? :P
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lol xD
Nice one Phine. :P
But really, why is the answer to everything always in the library? Schooling systems are more meant to teach things like that. You don't go into a common library and buy/read a selection of hundreds to thousands of books to learn everything you need to know about the world in real life, you go to school to learn those things. Now, schools in this time would cost a lot to get into, and not be mandatory, making it so only people with interest would have to get into them. Before you say, "But we have this wonderful tutorial!" the tutorial doesn't teach crap about this, which is an actual arguement I got in some time ago.
The libraries current in Yliakum seem to be directed toward the retarded and otherwise extremely dumb people. Most of the books I've found in there should be normal everyday knowledge for average citizens of Yliakum, so I don't see why they're even there. In the very least, the website should have documentations and databases on it, like a question and answer system, to clear a lot of these things up so that our character isn't treated like an idiot for not knowing things like this. My character himself wouldn't have any interest in walking into a library and reading a book about birthing, nor does he wish to go to school, but that doesn't mean I can't have OOC knowledge, does it?
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My character himself wouldn't have any interest in walking into a library and reading a book about birthing, nor does he wish to go to school, but that doesn't mean I can't have OOC knowledge, does it?
Sorry. Yes it does.
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Well then go make an OOC trip to the library and pretend you've never been there to keep that reputation high :P
No, I understand your point and I agree. I read all the books I can because else I can't decide what my characters should know because of their upbringing. My characters wouldn't be interested in all those books though so it is mostly OOC for me to do so.
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Personally I have to agree with Suno on that completely.
I mean if a new player starts a guild he is bashed for not following the setting, but really isn't it being made pretty hard to find this kind of stuf?? I mean to know basic things that any character with the IQ of a peanut would know means exploration to the far reaches of Yliakum.
Now I can understand how it can be seen as fun by some, but it's also very anti RP. If I'm online I want to RP my character the best I can and needing to go places my character would never go to to find out some information I might be able to use in RP some day possibly if I'm lucky.....
I mean it would be different if this would be knowledge my character shouldn't know before he reads such books but in most cases this isn't the case and that really makes places like libraries OOC places.
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I mean to know basic things that any character with the IQ of a peanut would know means exploration to the far reaches of Yliakum.
The library is the far reaches of Yliakum?
Here's the deal. You guys want all this information off-site because you think that will aid RP - letting players avoid finding such info in the game. Where does that leave the players who just want to download and go? You're gonna tell them that the information "anyone would know" isn't in the game, but rather in some website? That said website is inexorably linked to the game? That's unfair. You want to treat the library as an OOC place to gain information? Fine. Do it. It's a willing sacrifice.
We're never going to please everyone the way things are done. If keeping the library as a semi-OOC source of basic information displeases you, oh well, too bad.
What's all this about enkidukai births now, before this whole topic is moved to the complaint department?
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I have to agree the unwillingness to use the library due to ic/ooc issues just seems . . .
LAME!
Make a reading character and read the information if you want to preserve your "My character does not read" rps.
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I have to agree the unwillingness to use the library due to ic/ooc issues just seems . . .
LAME!
hmmm yes very well argumented. Now why didn't I think of that. That really makes me change my opinion completely. *rolls eyes*
If you don't agree that is your porogative but calling someone elses opinon lame just becuase it's not the same as your opinion is just childish.
As for the library being the only place I have seen books at other places and I'm sure they will appear on even more places or are you telling me that the library will be the one and only place to hold books?
If I play D&D do I have to learn all the details about the world in the game? If I ask a DM about something my barbarian should know as comon knowledge do you expect him to tell me to have my character hit the bookstore?
So why is it strange to think basic knowledge like how long a pregnancy lasts should be in a database and not just in a book ingame?
I respect you having a different opinion then me, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.
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I mean that it is moved by laziness and not any "sticking to my character" I think the argument is weak.
Take some time and read the darned books.
Really you ignored my second point entirely and my initial post had intent of being a lighthearted comment on the nature of the complaint. you think it is hard to read them in the library? Try writing them, having them approved, or defending them to a largely unappreciative audience.
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I mean that it is moved by laziness and not any "sticking to my character" I think the argument is weak.
Take some time and read the darned books.
How is the argument weak? Whatever the reason, it makes more sense then sticking common knowledge and the such in a library. How hard is copying and pasting?
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How hard is it to read them in the game?
I think this topic has run its course, thanks for playing.
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Wait you're reply to several posts is "LAME" and then you just say to simply make another character as if that has anything to do with the point that it's OOC and I'M ignoring points made???
Xillix Queen of Fools
How hard is it to read them in the game?
A lot harder if
A. They aren't all in one place and one doesn't know all the places
B. One doesn't even know what kind of information one can find and what not.
I'm sorry Xillix but calling people opinions lame and arguments weak becuase you asume others are simply being lazy is no way to get a constructive argument. It's not that I don't apreciate your work, I think it's great how much has been added, but I do stick with my opinion that an outside database would be more apropriate and that the books ingame right now are to OOCoriented for my taste.
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Learning is part of the in game process you don't have a gm to answer you.
In fact answers for these questions did not exist until someone on my team made the book in answer to player requests.
Now you want it delivered in another manner because you say it should be that way.
Do you want fries with that?
It really is not that big a deal to ask you and others to read the in game books.
There are only three libraries right now.
Garile i was not directing it at you, don't take it personally.
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Frankly, I see both points of view.
I agree with Garile as far as the actual matter goes, but I think we should cut the Settings people some slack.
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There are only three libraries right now.
Is that with the Imperial Library included?
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thread lock request from xillix.