PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Garile on January 22, 2008, 12:12:12 am
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I was wondering about my time in Planeshift and about how I've changed.
One thing that has changed is how I recruit. Ofcourse I also changed guild so they have different standards, but even if I didn't my standards and ways have changed aswell.
However are these changes really all for the better? Chosing a guild seems to be very OOC at the moment. Specially new players have often chosen a guild way before they learn RP. This means the number of people I recruit these days has been almost none.
The main question then arises does this way of recruiting lead to higher quality and a better guild in the end? Or should one recruit with some lower standards preparing to steam the recruits into what you would like instead of recruiting them that way?
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I find it the only way to recruit but that's because I'm practically always roleplaying. Unfortunately it does mean we're very restricted in the number of people we can recruit but RP guilds will always come behind non-RP guilds anyway.
One thing I do do is recruit people with an interest in roleplay and who are at least on the right track. I'll do my best to teach them the ropes and get them into the fold .. but this doesn't always work out in the end. A lot of people I recruited on those terms eventually decide they aren't into roleplay enough to stick around. The few that do make it all worth while though.
In the end I'd much rather have a handful of good roleplayers than an army of questers or levelers or whatever.
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A guild that grows very fast does not last very long. In most cases. If you want your guild to become popular, then become a forum mod and use your sig for recruiting purposes. Don't get me wrong, using your sig to spread awareness of your guild, or your guild's website doesn't bother me much, but using it for recruiting does.
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.. Roleplaying while recruiting..
We used to handle it mostly like that, recruiting people only by roleplayed reasons. That means we usually were aiming for few meetings, two or three, gathering trust of the one targeted, making sure he can be trusted and such - Just the way of acting our chars have to go for, concerning the Collective's nature.
Now, as it turned out after quite some attempts.. to (role-) play out recruitings the proper way in most of the cases failed. Reason: Massrecruiting guilds caught the newbies.
For some time now we tried to resist to lower our personal standards, but we had to realize that this wont result in any success. So finally we agreed in no longer accepting massrecruiters spoiling newbs, but to try to recruit with a much smaller amount of rp involved.
We already tried to do so once, and it actually felt pretty poor. It lacks a whole lot of depth and immersion - but if it will lead to gathering members, willing and proficient roleplayers, the lack could be balanced out later on.
About the "quality" of the guild in the end, well, in my opinion (otherwise we wouldnt have altered our way) its the guild who has a big influence on how the members will develop. Promising newbies can become ooc-chatters in those mass-guilds, or to roleplayers in according guilds.
One thing I do do is recruit people with an interest in roleplay and who are at least on the right track. I'll do my best to teach them the ropes and get them into the fold .. but this doesn't always work out in the end. A lot of people I recruited on those terms eventually decide they aren't into roleplay enough to stick around. The few that do make it all worth while though.
Ditto
Thats in fact quite funny, Tuxide! I thought that myself already: Guild-leading forums-mods not missing many occasions to advertise their guilds probably have good chances, even when recruiting roleplaying-wise only;)
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*smiles*
My sig? ahh well you probably mean Sangwa's seeing I'm no forum mod. Kinda stole his signature anyhow. ;)
I don't think my signature really recruits people. They would only click it if they were interested to begin with so it only makes it easier for people to find the website and learn more and obviously I don't minds people knowing what guild my main character is in right now.
Anyhow I don't believe extreems are good so massrecruiting isn't good for a guild, but seeing how few join sometimes with high standards it does make one wonder if some lower standards though still having standards wouldn't work better with the idea of teaching them as they go.
It would mean letting in people your not sure about yet, but in addition it might bring more people into roleplaying aswell. Hard to say where the perfect line is I suppose.
OK was writing this before Velh posted. Thanks Velh for the post. Well that is pretty much what I'm starting to think aswell. I'm not sure I want to go that well, but it does seem to go the way that if you want to be a succesfull RP guild you do need to lower ones standards a little and focus a lot more on teaching the new recruits to get the group you want.
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For me it's a mix. I want to recruit IC because that makes sense, but I also want to know the person OOC. The reality is that while IC is the focus, there is a player behind the character, and if he's a jerk it could ruin the fun for the other players in the guild.
I'll give an example for myself... Yesterday I had fun roleplaying with a couple people, among them was Lirreka. I was suitably impressed by her RP and later on I saw her in IRC so I talked to her for a bit. She seemed an intelligent, with-it young lady who I would enjoy having in my guild, and I'd already seen that her RP was good. So I talked to her about the guild and she said she'd prefer IC recruiting. So we agreed that we hope our character's meet again, and chances are that if Phinehas realizes she's a magic-wielder(which he doesn't at the moment), then he'll end up trying to recruit her. Ideal situation as far as I'm concerned, if it works out, I'll end up with a cool character and a cool player in my guild.
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Well I'd say what I was think but Phinehas said it for me :P To tell the truth though I never actually recruit. Most who have ended up joining any of my guilds were just met accidentally and after a few chats accepted (either that or enslaved ;D ). I think that having your characters goals alligned with the goals of the guild the most important thing though. You can ICly become friends with guild members and join their guild and its still as bad as OOC recruitment. In that case I rather see someone get recruited OOCly because they already understand their character to fit in ICly. One could argue to say its an IC choice but it still doesn't feel right to me.
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I have tried recruiting solely ICly. It is hard to actually find RPers not already in a guild, and hard to find new players that would join a guild of Rangers. Everyone seems to be in the whole noble warrior or evil character bit, no one cares about nature, and if they do, they go and start their own guild, thus depriving the others of new members :P I find it hard to recruit bot because of the method, but because of the multitude of same-goal, same-kind guilds, and it is the one with some attribute, sometimes, OOC, that gets it. One guild has more members, perhaps, and is thus able to recruit more because they have more people recruiting. Maybe one invites OOCly, which of course is an advantage.
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Stop talking, Farren. Nobody cares about nature. :P
It had to be said.
Still though, I think you're right... part of the difficulty in recruiting is that 95% of characters are cliches.
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To me the DE is and should be a leet guild, do not lower yourself to street spam Garile.
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For me it's a mix. I want to recruit IC because that makes sense, but I also want to know the person OOC.
:)
What if the person doesn't want to get to know people OOC in this game? What if all they want is the RP and care not about getting to know people? Some people even take it to the extreme and RP their characters personalities on the forums. This poses a problem with your wanting to get to know the OOC. So what do you do? Turn away a good roleplayer? Or choose to accept that their character is all they will be in game and recruit them anyway? Just curious.
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Honestly? Haven't had to make that decision yet. Haven't come across anyone of that description. Sure I'm not buddy-buddy with everybody OOC, and have no desire to be, but I haven't come across anyone who refuses to be OOC at all...
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To me the DE is and should be a leet guild, do not lower yourself to street spam Garile.
Why not? It's completely justifiable in character, especially for the military branch of the DE. Armies always recruit with street spam. :P
This doesn't mean you have to become a mass recruiter and just allow anyone into the guild. You can still shout out about needing more recruits but make sure the undedicated ones are scared off by a harsh interview.
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Just to mention it, as devs and mods say it waaaay to rarely: Join the Dark Empire, it's the most superior guild by far Planeshift has! ::)
But seriously now, even if the Empire is that "leet", if they dont have members even their reputation wont help much and it will turn into a farce.
We thought quite some times we could "target" the DE but we just had problems 'finding' it - That guild surely is great and all, and I wish they grow (again?) for they will provide atmosphere and plot! After all they are a roleplaying-guild and shoud be one of those ruling;)
Of course the personality of the player and his attitude we also take into account, but so far we always were successful evaluating by the way one played.
Even if to "lower the standards" would mean a less pleasant moment of recruiting itsself, it doesnt mean it would lower the standard of the whole guild, so I second Zan there. To take it to the extreme, even if you would use massrecruiting-methods, maybe first 10% roleplaying-way, rest ooc, still there would be a big difference in the end. A member of a massrecruiter would then have the guild-tab to chat, a member of a roleplaying guild also, but much more important he would find himself in an area where things get figured, plans made up, stories told, maybe intruiged, maybe .. to make the long story short: He would find himself within something quite fascinating and exciting. And that alone already would form the newbie and show him how grand PS really can be.
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Good point zan, I just meant I dislike when people spam new people invites. A good guild should have quality people seeking it.
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I think a good idea to help solve some of this would be to make players with newly created accounts, not characters but accounts, to wait for a moth or so before they are allowed to join a guild. The one big problem of course is that there's no way to ICly explain it. But it would help people see the difference between the grinding to get better game mechanic wise or to play their characters stories up more. I think it would help, but I don't see away to explain it.
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Sounds indeed like an interesting idea! Could work the same way one cant shout the first hour ingame.
For the sense of it, I could imagine that newbies wont be able to join a guild the second day for having all the spoilers in the forums. Hence they would have to find their way on their own, asking around and that. That way they surely would be nudged now and then and taught a bit Not a bad thing!
On the other hand though, newbies sooner or later, in the worst case, would make friends of ooc-guildeds, and would have to wait the rest of the month until he can get fully guilded.
Although the positive effect would be less in the latter case, I can still see something good in it.
Okay.. but some more less pleasant point about it:
Its actually already the same dilemma with the tutorial. Just picture you want to form a guild for roleplaying reason, some plot requiring it (or it would make it comfy, whatever). You are a player who is playing for already some years, but still need to wait weeks until your second account is allowed to have chars guilded (in case its account-related, not char-wise like the tut).
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I think a good idea to help solve some of this would be to make players with newly created accounts, not characters but accounts, to wait for a moth or so before they are allowed to join a guild.
I have to disagree on this one because guilds are (ideally) supposed to encourage RP. Not being able to join a guild might encourage new players to become guildless powerlevellers.
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I have to disagree on this one because guilds are (ideally) supposed to encourage RP. Not being able to join a guild might encourage new players to become guildless powerlevellers.
It gives them more time to see what the game has to offer. I think it will discourage a lot of powerleveling as newcomers will be forced to ask REAL players form all, any, or no guilds where they can find better armor, weapons, trainers, and monsters. Then they will eventually run into a more experienced RPer and they might enjoy the conversation and realize there's more to the game than the mechanics.
Okay.. but some more less pleasant point about it:
Its actually already the same dilemma with the tutorial. Just picture you want to form a guild for roleplaying reason, some plot requiring it (or it would make it comfy, whatever). You are a player who is playing for already some years, but still need to wait weeks until your second account is allowed to have chars guilded (in case its account-related, not char-wise like the tut).
Well this can be altered by a request from a GM just as name changes can be requested if a good RP reason is provided. Not our biggest problem. My largest fear of it is that it doesn't make sense RP wise which is what we're trying to enforce.... but for now, I'm in favor of the hipocracy of it.
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I think a good idea to help solve some of this would be to make players with newly created accounts, not characters but accounts, to wait for a moth or so before they are allowed to join a guild.
I have to disagree on this one because guilds are (ideally) supposed to encourage RP. Not being able to join a guild might encourage new players to become guildless powerlevellers.
True, but isn't part of the problem that there are so many guilds out there that don't encourage RP? I mean just look at the names of the new guilds. There is definately an OOC trend there so I don't really have much hope their RP is much better.
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I agree with Garile: If players would be more familiar with roleplaying and more into the whole thing, they wouldnt join any of the ooc'ish guilds, but would extend their roleplay by joining a guild with fitting purposes and guilds' offer of certain roleplaying chances.
A newb, who still needs to learn, most probably wont get the best lessons and examples when joining 'wrong' groupings. So I do think he would be trained way better when freelancing for the first, interacting here and there, making his own thoughts, instead of having the doubtable comfort to get stuff shot into guildtab.
I recently met a newbie, obviously up to roleplay and already being a decent one, and asked him about his guild right away and why did he join it (yes, it once again sucked to see a nice newbie being guilded in.. lets call it a discussable guild). He answered that the guys in that guild just are "good to newbies".
I am convinced that if that guy would have had to roam and explore for 4 weeks, he surely would have recognized also the rp'ing guilds are "good to newbies" and helpful for other things (spoilers etc.). The difference is that roleplaying ones might not go for ooc-talks right away.
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I feel kinda same issue for Lair as is for Empire...
And most I would add to it is already said here. :)
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Why should an established player wait a month to create a guild with an alternate character specifically created for starting the guild if his main character is unsuited for it?
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Why should an established player wait a month to create a guild with an alternate character specifically created for starting the guild if his main character is unsuited for it?
That's a really good point. I am curious about the answer to this question of yours Bilbous.
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Well yes, I already wondered about that.
Well this can be altered by a request from a GM just as name changes can be requested if a good RP reason is provided. Not our biggest problem. My largest fear of it is that it doesn't make sense RP wise which is what we're trying to enforce.... but for now, I'm in favor of the hipocracy of it.
Not sure though how do GMs would engage that. I just would wonder if that wouldnt become too much of a hassle, too many requests and such..
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Why should an established player wait a month to create a guild with an alternate character specifically created for starting the guild if his main character is unsuited for it?
We've already addressed the question. So I'll toot my own horn and quote myself.
Well this can be altered by a request from a GM just as name changes can be requested if a good RP reason is provided. Not our biggest problem. My largest fear of it is that it doesn't make sense RP wise which is what we're trying to enforce.... but for now, I'm in favor of the hipocracy of it.
But Yes Velh I can see how GM requests for character unblocks on guilds might be a hassle. but I don't know specifics, I'm just the idea guy. xD I'm sure something is arrangeable.
[btw I think I need a cool sig like everyone else. *pouts*]
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All the same if I have a new character on a completely new account I am not sure I want to say to a GM "oh yeah, I'm bilbous ... been around for ages, lemme break the rules." I am not sure I want anyone to make the connection. That was a whole other thread from days gone by, though.
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hmm if you have a rule like that you shouldn't make acceptions for people who make new accounts. How would you be sure it's really them playing that account and not their brother or sister for example. People will always try to avoid such rules so you would have to be carefull and really what is a month for someone who has been playing PS for ages? If it's really that important for them to create the guild they will simply have to delete a character at their first account or wait a month till their other account is ready. They can use that time to establish their character what a real roleplayer in my eyes should do before creating a guild.
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No, it is fine. I'll just make 10 or 20 accounts now so that someday a month or more from now I can create 40-80 guilds at will. Makes the restriction seem a little pointless though. Either that or I will just create a guild in the game without the support of the game mechanics. If someone decides to steal my name that is their problem I will continue to use it despite its unofficial status. I wonder though does a guild have to be officially constituted through the game mechanics in order to bid on a guild house?
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How could I miss this thread for so long...
The "Royal House of Purrty" sees roleplaying as central part of the recruitment. Before accepting a new member, we expect them to play with us, at least some kind of hearing about the motive and the desires.
We don't expect leet roleplaying skills though. Just a deliberate decision for roleplaying. Learning by doing ... who would support it more than me. I always enjoy to remember how I learned.
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Like it or not joining a guild can be of immense help for the newcomer. Sometimes they will be all for roleplay and do it right from the start and the guild can be a significant element in that decision. I know it was for me when I first started playing. Other times, maybe because they chose their guild poorly or simply because that's who they are, they will be drawn away from roleplay. However, if they enjoy the game that way and don't get in anyone's hair, let them be. No need for more rules, especially when so many players will be asking for an exception. Time weeds out guilds with no real purpose as it weeds out players with no real interest in what PS can really offer. The same way time brings back old thread topics. Click here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30884.0) for some interesting ideas on how to improve the guild system.
Now, about how to recruit specifically, I think a mix of IC and OCC is needed. IC is fundamental to really transmit the guild's vibe. You have to enjoy how your potential guildmates RP or else you'll be sorry you joined (and that applies to players who are into RP as much as those who aren't). And OOC is important to walk the newcomer through as they experience roleplay and game mechanics for the first time. They should see how the guild handles both so they can evaluate if the guild offers answers to their needs.
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Yes I totally agree. Except that most time this is not done at all. Player-x creates a character and goes through the tutorial and get to Yliakum. They go through the first few things everyone does... then they get spammed by an invite with NO talk, IC or OOC whatsoever. Player-x does not know that PS is different from every other MMO and so says, "Hey! I'll join here and get help and if this isn't a good guild later I can always quit." So maybe put restrictions on how often you can guild invite game mechanic wise? And I wasn't talking about being able to create a guild for a month, but actually JOIN one. Of course creating would fall under that though.