PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Under the moon on February 09, 2008, 02:17:43 am
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This thread is split off this other one with Xillix's permission: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31475.0
I fully understand the reasons of why or why not people do not wish for a wipe. I am not going to debate those reasons. Instead, I am going to ask a question. This question is for the 'no wipe' people. What would make it worth it for you to have a wipe? Think long and hard on this. "nothing" is not an acceptable answer.
Let me give a few examples: If all bugs (or many) were fixed, but the system had to be wiped to implement the update, I would be fine with a full wipe.
If old character/guild data was causing crashes, I would want a full wipe.
If training was completely redone to be more fun with less grinding, I would be fine with a stat and money wipe.
If it was not just a simple wipe, but an In Character epic event of unparalleled scope written by the best of the best writers, then I would be fine with a full wipe.
So the question is, what is your 'If'? What would make you say: "Yes, wipe the system." (or partial wipe) The other topic is for discussion, this one is asking for an answer. If you have a NO WIPE post to make, do it here: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31475.0
I am going to ask that any post that is a NO, NOTHING, or wanders off topic be moved to the other thread or deleted, if warranted.
Please answer in this format:
If [THIS WAS THE RESULT], then I would be fine with a [full/money and skill] wipe.
Or something very similar in your own words.
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Well, it's like this:
With so many of these rare weapons and guildhouses given out, and the hours put into grinding and whatnot, people don't want to let things go unless absolutely necessary. At the moment, we aren't in dire need of a wipe (it'd be nice, but we can wait). Is there an urgent reason why we should wipe?
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What Suno meant is:
If it was really urgent and absolutely necessary, then I would want the type of wipe that is needed.
A vague answer. I am looking for more personal, exact 'ifs'.
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Username usurpation. So Link can have his old one back.
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If a new profession was implemented, then I would want a stats/skills wipe.
If a the current professions where drastically redone then I would want a stats/skills wipe.
If a new well-planned and tested economy was implemented, then I would want and inventory wipe.
If factions were improved and properly implemented then I would want a factions wipe.
If hell froze over I would want a full character wipe*.
* Deleting accounts that haven't been used in a long time is absolutely fine though.
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* Deleting accounts that haven't been used in a long time is absolutely fine though.
Unfortunately, some of us can't log in due to technical issues. I'd rather not lose my character just because my computer is a piece of junk.
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A full wipe is not that easy justifyable. Here is a list of conditions that needs to be true that I can see a reason behind a full wipe:
- All bugs gone. There are no bugs left that would allow to gain unfair advantages or level unintended fast. I don't see that coming fast.
- All skills and professions implemented.
- Quest system overhauled in a way that quests aren't that easy to break. Trasok recently swallowed 6 ancient swords from a guildy from me because the server crashed at the wrong point in time.
- If it has come to the attention of the devs/gms that some players exploited a bug without reporting it and the bug was used to gain advantage the knowledge wasn't shared to the devs/gms to prevent that bug from beeing fixed: Wipe the inventory,all stats and skills from those players.
Too make it short, if we are at a point where we can say Planeshift 1.0 is near and the current code has proven for a long time that it is stable and no exploitable bugs have been seen for over one year that would be a reason. But there are many tiny and not so tiny flaws in the game that could be fixed without a full wipe that even with the greatest and latest new features added a full wipe would leave a sour taste. There are still bugs in game that allow unfair advantage. All those who say: "Full wipe to make it fair again" should think twice as one or two days after the full wipe there would be the again players exploiting bugs and flaws to rank their chars faster. We are far away from a point where we can say with confidence: After a full wipe all is fair.
Anyhow, I think there are reasons for less drastic wipes and wipe like actions I would cheer for:
- If a new map system is implemented that would allow to play Planeshift without any loading zones I would be fine if all character positions are resetted
- If a certain skill, lets say crafting, is totally reinvited and reimplemented I would be happy if the old levels of that skill would be turned into PP's and trias. The players allready have grinded for that and grinding works in planeshift. I see no need to make the player grinding again. By turning the old skills into progression points and tria the player can concentrate into testing the new implementation.
- Developers work on quests, fix all known flaws and want us to test the quests again and want to get 'fix' all chars with a messy quest state: Quest wipe for the world \\o//
Summary:
If there will be smaller wipe like events or wipes done with care in deciding what to wipe and what not to wipe and maybe avoid regrinding by giving suitable amounts of PP's and tria thats fine. A full wipe will come, thats for sure. But it should be delayed as far as it could and be annouced like: "Planeshift is in a good shape, we are about to consider a full wipe within some months. Help us to find the remaining flaws so that another full wipe isn't necessary or at least can be delayed for years."
If it was not just a simple wipe, but an In Character epic event of unparalleled scope written by the best of the best writers, then I would be fine with a full wipe.
Sorry, I dont get it. If I get it right this is about having a full wipe to justify an event and in my opinion thats not a good idea. Players put effort in gaining skills and items. I can not imagine an event that would be good enough and entertaining enough to justify it. And another problem is: Many players affected by the wipe will miss that event. Its not nice to see all that stuff is gone and other players had a nice event while I was sleeping.
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Username usurpation. So Link can have his old one back.
I am in favor of a wipe, but this is a good suggestion.
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If the server needs it, and if players can keep their characters' names, then I would be fine with a full wipe.
If it is necessary to do a wipe to fix a major bug or bugs that is/are a problem right now, and if players can keep their characters' names, then I would be fine with a full wipe.
If it is not possible to keep characters' names, but at least one of the conditions from the above "ifs" is true, then I would be fine with any kind of wipe that does not involve wiping characters and guilds.
If a new feature is implemented, then I would want a wipe of whatever thing the new feature had to do with. (eg, a skill wipe if a new profession is implemented, or a money wipe if the economy is somehow improved.)
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If locked quests were unlocked I could probably live with having to gain levels in stats and skills again. I voted no, but I guess that there isn't a really big reason for me to care since Illysia is more of a roleplaying character now.
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If a really great or important new feature was implemented or a really annoying bug was fixed, and that would absolutely require a wipe, I would be fine with any type of wipe that is required. This game is still in development, so it has to be done when there is no other way to realise certain improvements. But I wouldn't like a wipe just to "reset everything" ("it's unfair that there are so many people who are stronger than me, let's make a wipe, so everyone is equal again"), "balance economy" (that should be possible without a wipe) or because some people exploited a bug (of course the exploiters could be wiped, depending on how serious it is, just not everyone else).
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A full wipe? I suppose when the devs say "planeshift is about how we want it" you could have a full wipe s everyone ranks up in the same way, but i'm not really sure if that really warants a wipe. I mean what does it matter if someone ranks up differently?
Personally i don't really care that some people are uberpowerfull. seeing i roleplay quite a bit and don't grind that much i will never be maxed out fast so if there is a wipe I will probably just be lagging behind even more then i am now seeing at the moment I'm atleast at the point where after a year of play on this character I slowly leveled up a little.
A full wipe I'm not even sure would do anything. If a bug would seriously mess up everyones rankings then sure reset the rankings. but a moneymaking bug? reset everyone caught overusing it and leave the rest alone. *shrugs*
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It's simple, if the Devs think it's necessary to have a full wipe, then I would think it is worth having said wipe. We players can't know when a wipe is needed because we don't have all the information and background knowledge of development. I trust that the Devs know what they're doing and am pretty certain they aren't just sitting in their chairs laughing evilly at us petty players while they make up more schemes to make our planeshift lives as miserable as possible ... well maybe there are some exceptions. :P
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For me as a role player PlaneShift is its players, its history and settings. If a total wipe means deleting these things I find that sad. Do not get me wrong I understand the reason for the wipe. I was hoping it would come a long time from now.
My main concern is that the older players, who are rich in history, will leave because they will not want to build up their character again. If that happens then you will be left with a totally new game with mostly new players but maybe that is what you want after all.
If I am wrong, please explain to me what a ‘complete wipe’ is then.
:'( :'(
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A full wipe gets rid of all character data. It is like everyone starting the game fresh with a brand new shiny server and client (as the wipe would only come when a new client was released).
And please remember this is not a debate thread. A wipe is not up for debate. One will happen eventually. One will not happen now or even soon. This thread is for asking what would make it OK for you. Please stick to the topic.
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if i was able to keep account/ names associated to that account so that i could still be XXXX after the DB was wiped, and so that in game, someone else wouldn't try to pretend to be me, thusly trying to discredit my reputation, then wipe whatever you want.
oh wait, I answered yes in the other thread. :-X
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Please stay away from wipes as long as there are still open bugs that would make a second wipe in a short time preferable. Just keep the wipes several months (or years like now) from each other.
What would make it worth it for you to have a wipe?
Once the grind and numbers are gone. (and playing a fresh character that is not made to max strength without being restricted to just roleplaying and beginner quests is possible.) Then wipe and let us enjoy the game without numbercrunching.
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Hello Community & GMs,
a wipe is atm nonsens?
But there are thousands of accounts that are inactive over months or years. So when your database (@ Admins + Developers) is to big or has to many errors/bugs, etc.
Delete all users wich don't login in the last hm... 3 or 6 Months?
Then is your problem solved, for the moment and you can fix other bugs, before you do a wipe... their are many worst bugs, their need a fix.
greetings :sweatdrop:
PS: with my idea will be maybe solved the bad laggs to some times in game...??
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PS: with my idea will be maybe solved the bad laggs to some times in game...??
Most of the current lag ingame is client side and not from the server so removing anything from the database will not decrease lag. Also the devs dont have time to do selective wipes unless there was some expoit that makes it needed. It is much easier for the devs [not gms] to do a full wipe of all chars then to look up when x was last on and decided based on that when and if that char will be wiped.
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Whether a wipe will come is definitely not up for debate, it will come ... but I do think that how the wipe will be approached can be up for debate.
Skills, tria and items .. drop them, I don't care :P Character names, history, descriptions, guilds, guildhouses and other roleplayed acchievements I do care about. Obviously they all go down the drain in a full wipe and obviously there can be a full wipe needed.
- Names: Well since I'm no Dev I don't know how hard it is to save this information before wiping but I will assume it is too hard. So we'll have to depend on eachother's goodness and hope nobody steals your name on purpose. If it happens by accident, act maturely, contact that person and request your name back with GM help.
- History: Since there is no in-game place to save character history, this is also not a problem. You should save your character history on your own computer or brain. :P
- Descriptions: By giving people enough warning ahead of the wipe (read: a week or two) you can give them the chance to save their roleplaying info somewhere external. Also an official link to a copy-paste program for this purpose would be helpful.
- Guilds: See the first point.
- Guildhouses and other future benefits: This is the tricky part. Essentially they can be seen as items and that means they should be wiped without mercy. Personally I do see a huge difference between getting your hands on a weapon or glyph and a guildhouse though. The latter should also always be surrounded with roleplay so in my eyes, they should be restored after a wipe because they are a part of the roleplaying history of the guilds in question. I do not see this as unfair towards the other players since everyone starts from zero as far as tria go. More guildhouses will become available and everyone will have an equal chance of getting them. Not returning the old guildhouses doesn't change a thing about that since we still have plenty of empty buildings available. The same goes for other future benefits of a similar nature.
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PS: with my idea will be maybe solved the bad laggs to some times in game...??
Most of the current lag ingame is client side and not from the server so removing anything from the database will not decrease lag. Also the devs dont have time to do selective wipes unless there was some expoit that makes it needed. It is much easier for the devs [not gms] to do a full wipe of all chars then to look up when x was last on and decided based on that when and if that char will be wiped.
Deleting all accounts which didn´t log in for half a year isn´t a "selective" wipe. It can be done quite easily and would drop a good portion of the records including load of so-called "bad data".
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People, stay on topic. The conversation is deviating again. Before you post, please make sure you are following the first post, not responding to someone else's. If this thread turns into a debate over any reason, including the methods that the Devs may or may not use, then I will ask that it be locked.
The intention of this thread is not yes or no. It is not to debate what causes what. It is simply asking you, personally, what would make a wipe OK in your eyes. Most of the answers so far have been very insightful, and others have avoided the topic.
Yes, it is a hard question. It is meant to be. It is akin to asking people for what reasons they would shave their heads. The reflex response to that question for most people is "I would not." But, if thought over, every last one of those people will come up with a reason they would do it.
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I believe what UtM is asking is:
"Would you be in favour of a wipe if Under the moon shaved his head?"
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I believe what UtM is asking is:
"Would you be in favour of a wipe if Under the moon shaved his head?"
HELL YA! \\o//
Edit: Sorry moon I couldn't resist. Don't lock the thread on my account ..... :-X
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As UTM asked...here is my list of "if" they did this/that a full wipe would be ok with me.
IF...and is IF ALL...ALL of the following if were meet I would agree a full wipe would be nice.
1) IF...the current list of ALL unimplimented skills were made available for use
2) IF... the skill and trainning each person has actually matches what the result should be..ie..if a person has "mastered/maxed out the trainning in something like swordmaking they should have no..no problem making swords/weapons of much higher quality and value than that of a person who/whom isn't even 1/2 way through such trainning..if a person has only been trainning a skill to 1/50th of someone elses they aren't even able to do close to what the other can do..ect
3) IF...the DEVs/setting team(s) reset a skills "max" level to a point lowwer than what you are at...then all the PP and trias spent to get to the higher point above the new max..is returned to you
4) IF...there was actually a GM/advisor that would answer requests for help in a timely manner
5) IF... ALL..ALL magic worked as it should...ie.. if you cast weakness that is suppose to effect an enemy..it should not effect you
6) IF ... all..ALL current bugs within quests/skills/mapping/ect were fixed
7) IF.... the Devs/settings team amoung others..admit that any game {such as PS} that continues to upgrade graphics and such...in not a FREE GAME..to those that have to spend the money to upgrade the systems inorder to play.
OF course I could get deeper into more things..but thats just a basic..very basic list :)
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4) IF...there was actually a GM/advisor that would answer requests for help in a timely manner
Game Masters are volunteers and we're not enough to be online 24/7. If you need assistance and no Game Master is around you can go to #planeshift-gmtalk on IRC and see if anyone can come online to help you or post a petition. The fact that in the future we hope to have enough Game Masters to cover all time zones has little to do with why a wipe would be needed though.
*Dajoji leaves before UtM smacks him with his antiofftopic club...
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I can tell you right now that it is in your best interest to record any information such as shortcuts, character descriptions, etc etc.
For me a wipe would be fine because the devs wanted one. No real criteria is needed to be met.
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Names can be replaced. Guilds can be built back up. Histories can be remembered.
But I would prefer that it is done every once in a while, not wiped, then wiped again the next week to correct some other bug.
Also, I like the idea of when the Devs do want to wipe, that the GMs could make some kind of event right before the wipe to explain why such an event would occur.
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As some others stated I also think that if the devs think a full wipe is unavoidable, then it would be okay for me. That's the first IF.
The second (also stated by others): IF the "character-specific" things are kept. In other words: If players keep their character (name and description). I think I am not the only one who, after a while of just playing for advancement, began to roleplay, more or less, and therefore chose the character name on purpose (though I won't say the name in here ;-) ). Also I (as well as others) invested some time in writing a good description for the own character. That's why I think the second IF is essential.
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I have thought about it some more and looked around and read most of the other discusion.
Personally I have to say there are only a few reasons listed by people in favor of a wipe.
1. Seems to be the feeling that several people exploited bugs and gained an unfair advantage and a wipe would clear this up again. Personally I feel that is a bad reason for a wipe. Won't there be more bugs? And does it really affect your gameplay if someone else used a bug to get a few more tria? I mean at this time there are plenty of people who are maxed in several things "legally" so this advantage seems minimal at best seeing it only adds a few people who are maxed to the list.
About the same reasoning goes to stabilizing the economy. Once crafting skills and loot seem to be stabilized and tweaked one can think of a wipe to make sure the economy isn't stll contaminated by cash (and the skills gained by them) from earlier bugs. At the moment it seems a bit far away though.
2 The solution of all that is buggy. Obviously that isn't true but I hear from some devs that it would help to solve some bugs that have been found. I think that really is a good reason to think about a wipe. Specially if those bugs make it hard to build out the feature the bug is found in. We are afterall here to improve Planeshift as a game aswell. However seeing I haven't really seen anyone mention what bugs would be fixed it is most likely those bugs are only minor at this time and then it would be strange to chose yes eventhough one should think about it.
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I've read not only arguments for the wipe but also many against one. Many I don't agree with. Many are reasons why you shouldn't do a wipe UNLESS it is nececary.
Although I feel some people are just passing by the fact we are here to enjoy ourselves and that leveling is a part of the game and part of the enjoyment and part of the package of Planeshift just as much as roleplaying is.
The bottomline I think is obvious. The reaons why not are obvious. The reasons why you do decide to wipe should atleast weigh up against those. Therefor I think the answer is in my own highly personal opinion.
A wipe should be done when
1. A bug occured that makes most people want to quit planeshift or atleast highly annoyed like a bug that randomly changed peoples stats or a bug that makes several characters unable to do basic things.
2. A bug occured that makes it hard for the devs to continue building an aspect of Planeshift and it is holding them back.
3. It is needed so the devteam can seriously improve PS like going from MB to CB (not really a wipe but still)
4. When the game is nearing it's finished state in terms of all major skills being active and the devs thinking no major bugs will occur to disrupt the playereconomy and there still being earlier bugs who influenced the economy in a degree that a little time wont absorb it.
PS: I do think it would be a great gesture if the devs tried to not have a wipe that would erase names of characters and guilds, but I can see that being pretty hard to realise with a full wipe.
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/me thumps Garile on the head for skirting around the rules of the thread for the entire first half of that post.
No debating why you would not want a wipe. No debating the reasons the Devs might need a wipe. No debating at all, please. Just answer the given question.
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*smiles*
It's called an explanation Moon. Before putting down the list I think it's also important to explain how one came to that list. otherwise someone might misunderstand why you made it like that.
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Sorry for asking but when was the last wipe of any kind?
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If I remember correctly the last full wipe happened ~2005, just before 0.3.011 was released. There were several smaller wipes since then - i think we had a partial money-wipe September 2007.
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aahh yes the memories of wanting to be the first one to make sure your name was still available and getting the guild back up and running. The planning and stuff we did with passwords. Worked out alright though. No big wipescams, but then again everyone was constantly talking about them so that kinda makes it hard to fool anyone :devil:
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Maybe we get a new way naming system people someday.. this would warrant a full wipe.
However, I don't think a full wipe would be that bad as long as people can "back up" their names and claim them (or a similar one) afterwards again.
Not to mention those Rings of the Past...
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In my opinion the only good reason for a wipe is.... if the developers need it.
They are developing a game and we are allowed playing and suggesting things.
If they think the game would be better if they wipe everything, so be it.
They could also be blizz.. making a horrible game where we wait to long for!
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First of all Id like to make my statement about the state of the game. Today most mmorpgs will never be "finished" for example if WOW devs would state that they are going to stop developing the game since it is finished most of the people would be irritated. So you cant always hang up for the statement that this game isnt finished, it might have some glitches and stuff that devs are working on before they will start calling it ready but id really hope that they wouldnt stop developing the game to that.
Secondly about the skill differences between characters, thats really not a good reason for a wipe that new players are too jealous for the older players for them being better. I dont have very good characters at the moment but Im still not hoping for a wipe so that the "better" characters would be wiped. It will offer some challenge to the game if there is older players that you need to catch up to.
And finally about what would make the wipe worth it. If the Devs were to put something new to the game that would really make the old characters obsolete I could easily accept the char wipe. For example if they woulde implement the racial traits, if they were to take away the chance to use heavy armor for klyros, I could understand the wipe completely. Another good reason would be some kind of huge update that would bring loads of more stuff to the game that would be just plainly easier to put in with wipe. But Im really not in for the idea that when there is any kind of new thing going to be put in to the game there will be a wipe, nor will i understand the wipe to make everyone have even starting ground to the game. The older players should have the advantage over the newer players if they want it. And no one is stopping an old player to make a new char eh?
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Seeing as PlaneShift is more RP oriented than anythinig else, and I don't see how a wipe can even affect my RP, and well, my Chr is more about who he is, than any numbers attached. Didn't mind all the grinding the first tiem, don't see why it's such a hassle, save for those who attach importance to numbers. The RP'ers will still RP, and the PL'ers will still grind away, and i'll still do both, even after the wipe. A wipe is a good thing, means enough work has been done to need a clean slate, means many new things to discover, and many new skills/quests/items/spells etc. the list is long.
Not too say I don't understand the long hours it takes to max a skill, having maxed a few myself, to the detriment of my mouse ( anyone say 'Buy Rank' in the new version? ), it's just that it's not all that big a deal IMO...I mean last time I played, Myysst was maxed everything, then I show up two years down the road, and he's like semi-noobish, which made sense in a way, he had ben awol for 2 years, prolly in DR trying to free his brothers. I'll be ticked like the next player when the wipe happens, all that work gone to hydlaa's sewers, then i'll get over it, and then i'll start PL'ing a bit, then i'll be happy again, plus all the new things, nah, i'll get over it fast indeed.
Basically, I say wipe when and if necessary, and don't listen to much to our griping, we just get attached to our chr's and feel for them when they have to start over. Myysst has been through 2 wipes, partial yeah, but it did make me a lot poorer, though, it also gave me a reason to go out, and kill things, and meet new players, make new friends etc...was all for the good in the end.
Besides, i'd have too many tria to know what to do with if it hadn't been wiped, I had way too many from too long ago, those high slash weapons sold for a kings ransom, and i profited all too well from them...heh.
I guess in SB, i'll continue crafting, seems to make quite a bit of tria, and I like the system, hope you didn't change it too much, never seen one like it in all the RPG's/MMORPG's i've played, had me hooked for the last three days of CB even...which is a good thing :P
Nuff said
PS -- I usually only wipe if and when necessary :P
...erm...