PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Sangwa on March 26, 2008, 02:03:13 am
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4 GMs do not get involved in player events.
According to this Game Moderator (GM), GM's do not get involved in "Player Events." Which means they do not look over player generated events and possibly do not verify roleplaying as it normally happens day to day.
I think that isn't right and I believe it should change, hence this little wish here.
Why?
Because, like I awkwardly keep repeating, in a Roleplaying Game roleplaying should come into focus. Well, it makes sense to me at least. That's why I believe the Game Moderators should keep their eyes open for _any_ type of violation: mechanic-wise, settings-wise and behaviour-wise simultaneously. And player events are part of player roleplaying (intended redundancy).
If we don't have the GM's around to check our roleplaying, they are only doing two thirds of their work. And for me that feels pretty much like being stolen part of a service I should get. Good thing I'm not paying, or I'd be genuinely insulted!
How?
I just think GM's should monitor main chat (as in having ways of checking all that happens on main chat, or at least they should move around invisibly and "physically" check populated areas), have a solid, updated knowledge of PS's setting, settle some basic RP rules that must be followed and then be able to tell players what needs to be improved and what can't be done and why.
Additional Disclaimer:
Since most people don't take my disclaimer seriously, let me reinforce it here. First of all Janner (Rennaj) has always been competent around me, answering to my questions when he could and effectively providing help when requested. I'm merely criticizing the methodology claimed to be used by GM's.
Then, part of my speech has a jovial, playful tone to it. It's not meant to be derogative at all. I'm still young and fun, don't take that away from me. *tear* Just thought I better add this, sometimes I get snapped at around here.
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Simple reply: We would if we could.
Complex reply:
GMs in PS have a different role than DMs in other games.
We're not there to control *everything* - players are free to just play their thing in private.
GMs also cannot control people's RP if it is not in public, and we can't see chat globally.
However, there were and still are cases when we stumble upon RP that needs some sort of correction, may it be because of settings or social/psychological reasons.
Then we can (and I actually would like GMs to)
- approach people ingame and give them advices on their RP in /tell or /group
- get ingame as player and nudge the RP into another direction (without using GM powers at all)
- post thoughts and critics on the forums to get a public reaction
and last
- incorporate a specific situation into an official GM event.
However, the last point is quite touchy and requires near-complete knowledge over the situation and a lot of talent to make it without screwing up.
It is touchy mostly because with the involvement of GMs, players take the foregoing events as officially approved as well, whether GMs know about them or not, possibly causing fricitions.
Thus we choose carefully what we want to get directly involved with and for the rest private and public pokings need to suffice.
But remember: Mostly we only see what we're pointed to.
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when I had a stable PC I did used to watch RP's (the bonus of invisibility ;) ) and offer advice suggestions or praise if required and as anyone who's been on irc or watching forum over the last few days will see such advice is not always taken in the way intended.
This would be difficult to implement as it relies on subjective judgment, we all have differing views on good bad indifferent roleplay and ultimately none of us here, Players, GM's and Devs are as good as we'd like to think.
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We're not there to control *everything* - players are free to just play their thing in private.
GMs also cannot control people's RP if it is not in public, and we can't see chat globally.
I'm not saying GMs should control everything. I'm merely asking that they act as a moderating entity on roleplay as well. And a moderating entity doesn't turn what it moderates official (like when you moderate someone's reply in a forum you don't make the thread official), it just makes the situation compliant with the setting at hand.
My advise was that only public chat be monitored. And since it seems you can't see chat globally, part of my wish goes for a better main chat GM monitoring system. I'm not saying GM's should spend all their time watching main chat, just mentioning the importance of having that ability: quicker, easier response to disorderly main chat problems (RP and Behavior related) upon player request.
However, there were and still are cases when we stumble upon RP that needs some sort of correction, may it be because of settings or social/psychological reasons.
Then we can (and I actually would like GMs to)
- approach people ingame and give them advices on their RP in /tell or /group
- get ingame as player and nudge the RP into another direction (without using GM powers at all)
- post thoughts and critics on the forums to get a public reaction
and last
- incorporate a specific situation into an official GM event.
I'm glad you're currently doing this and I've witnessed it myself a few times. I also take this chance to thank you, since I think you guys are doing it out of your own accord. But I believe this aid needs to be reinforced still, since confusions, godmodding and such still happen often. Again, I don't think incorporating situations into official GM events is useful. I don't like GM events, quests, etc. I like a MMORPG to be player focused. Maybe PlaneShift isn't meant to be player focused, but it would still be useful to moderate what happens in public chat and moderate roleplay itself for a better atmosphere.
This would be difficult to implement as it relies on subjective judgment, we all have differing views on good bad indifferent roleplay and ultimately none of us here, Players, GM's and Devs are as good as we'd like to think.
I'm sure that constructing simple, basic roleplay guidelines (Define Godmodding, IC & OOC, etc.) wouldn't shock anyone as long as it was made a progressive and community participating effort. Judging behavior is equally or more tricky (subjective) and the GM's have had problems with it but they have been successful, at least in my own perspective. So why not risk doing a good job in moderating roleplay as well? That'd make the GM's more visible and appreciated plus improving the roleplaying within the game drastically.
Also, the PS Team has implemented some unpopular measures before. These got tuned with time and everyone came to like them, making the game better. I really, really, doubt this measure would be unpopular. I think most players faithful to PlaneShift would simply be overwhelmed in the good sense.
I think you guys have all it takes to make it work.
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Maybe it would help if the GM team awarded good roleplaying with a handful of experience points or a skill change in line with the roleplay at hand?
Say you as a GM stumble on a mage and apprentice roleplaying together. You watch for a bit and like the roleplay so you decide to reward them. The apprentice would get a skill point in whichever magic path he was studying and the mage would get a skill or two in charisma for teaching.
At least this makes a lot more sense than to reward people for running after a GM OOCly or awarding people with rare weaponry that has no relevance to the event in question.
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I'm sure that constructing simple, basic roleplay guidelines (Define Godmodding, IC & OOC, etc.) wouldn't shock anyone as long as it was made a progressive and community participating effort. Judging behavior is equally or more tricky (subjective) and the GM's have had problems with it but they have been successful, at least in my own perspective. So why not risk doing a good job in moderating roleplay as well? That'd make the GM's more visible and appreciated plus improving the roleplaying within the game drastically.
Also, the PS Team has implemented some unpopular measures before. These got tuned with time and everyone came to like them, making the game better. I really, really, doubt this measure would be unpopular. I think most players faithful to PlaneShift would simply be overwhelmed in the good sense.
I think you guys have all it takes to make it work.
I have to agree with Sangwa on this. This game has talented Gm's when it comes to their roleplaying skills. I think it is definitely worth the effort to give it a try. That being said Sangwa's wish has now become something that I too wish for. Thanks Sangwa for bringing this up.
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How would watching chat globally possibly work? It would seem to me that there would be so much cross-chatter that the text would scroll far too fast to follow. If you put each characters text in a separate box the screen would be filled with boxes and it still would not be readily apparent who was talking to whom in most cases even if the GM's were outside the /introduction mechanism as they should be.
The idea for GMs to reward players has the danger of falling into favoritism in that players who commonly participate in flashy role play are bound to be more interesting than the ones that just go about their characters business and leave the great events to others. For instance If I were a taciturn smith I might well do nothing but mine, smelt and forge, never talking to anyone not talking to me. How would a GM notice my role play much less distinguish me from a crafting PLer? Would there even be a difference between me and said leveler? What reward could I garner if nobody talks to me and I talk to nobody for a month? I suggest the proposed reward system would favor the extroverted players/characters at the expense of the introverted. Both types are appropriate but the former is far more obvious.
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GMs rewarding 'everyday' player roleplay will certainly bring more complaints than praises. Accusations of favoritism will be rampant, as Prolix brought up, as well as "Who are you to judge how I play?" lines. There will be cries about draconian surveillance. We all know there are plenty of rotten oranges hidden in the playerbase who are absolutely eager to jump onto any chance to whine and moan. I fear this is simply going to bring more headaches to the GM team.
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Perhaps the issue is just that they need more GM's in general to help moderate everything. It not uncommon for me to look for a gm and do a /who game and find none when there are 150-200 players online. And I know you say you can be reached on IRC and such, but not everyone has IRC or uses it and just stuff like that.
And I agree giving rewards for good rp is a bad idea everyone rp's differently and it would a favoritisms issue. Besides..I don't role play to get rewards..I do it to have fun, and to develop my char.
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And I know you say you can be reached on IRC and such, but not everyone has IRC or uses it and just stuff like that.
This link must be put on the IRC.html page of the webpage :P :lol:
http://gogloom.com/FreeNode/planeshift/
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I'm sure that constructing simple, basic roleplay guidelines (Define Godmodding, IC & OOC, etc.) wouldn't shock anyone as long as it was made a progressive and community participating effort.
I'm thinking more of internal policies for GMs at first regarding these topics that eventually can be made public once they're polished rather than a public discussion with dozens of pages.
However, I'm up for the effort and we certainly can work towards that, good idea!
How would watching chat globally possibly work? It would seem to me that there would be so much cross-chatter that the text would scroll far too fast to follow.
Very good question. I don't think there's a simple solution to that. Once in a while a seperate light-weight client for GMs comes up as idea to implement, however, controlling chat globally doesn't seem viable or even wanted to me when I imagine #planeshift.. only with a few thousand users ::|
I could imagine however some kind of map for GMs indicating where "the action" takes place so we can take spot checks.
GMs rewarding 'everyday' player roleplay will certainly bring more complaints than praises. Accusations of favoritism will be rampant, as Prolix brought up,
That certainly is true, thus chosing very carefully were to get directly involved (as in taking a role, whether official or undercover) with still is a must. However,
"Who are you to judge how I play?" lines.
can be limitted by the policies suggested above.
While I agree with the concern about rewarding everyday players when visible RP takes place, we're already working on another approach to this problem, by using official "mundane events", trying to get people of any flavor involved and rewarded for RP.
However, it's difficult to balance these (as in "I never get into GM event!") to avoid the feeling of favoritism on the player side, so there's a lot to polish on the organisation side, still.
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In a way, what you're asking for is RP censorship. I can't agree with that. The quality of RP is not measurable by common standards. There's not only one way to RP. The only things we can police are language/content filters (which have to be PG at all times), and whether or not the plots are within settings and with so many things still to be defined and content to be released it's too early to start enforcing that beyond the obvious. And in many cases, we do send friendly tells pointing out possible flaws but they are suggestions, not orders or warnings. In a way, the community is a better agent of control, after all, the success of a plot or RP depends entirely on whether it is accepted by other players or not and the community has a very swift way to raise their objections when a RP is straying away from the settings.
I don't think anybody has the right to come and say "this is how you roleplay". This opens the door for an intolerant and fundamentalist way to control the game and makes the atmosphere extremely unwelcoming.
Rennaj's point was simple: GMs do not get involved in player events in an official way. That means that we don't use our GM powers to help them, we don't create rewards, we don't affect the players in any way. All we do, if anything, is enjoy the show or watch for any potential problems that might require our intervention, mostly if not always OOC ones. We, however, can be approached about plots and RPs and we'll answer any questions the best way we can. Our responsibility is not to impose what we think is the right way of roleplay it is to enhance the gaming experience of the community. I find that the best way to do this is to allow them to enjoy the game the way they want as long as they respect other players' right to do the same. Controlling how people RP completely goes against it. It may sound like a good idea, even worth trying, but it involves taking essential freedoms from the players.
Yes, there will be crappy RPs and there will be good ones and players learn but there will be freedom too and that's worth being a little bit more patient with those who still got a lot to learn.
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I am not keen on the idea of experience points, that would be hard to distribute amoung players without someone getting upset. However, I do like the idea that was suggested about Gm's giving helpful advice and suggestions to other players. In my opinion it would be a step in the right direction to have that as a part of a Gm's job description. This would help not only the roleplay, it would benefit Gm's and help them get to know players. It would also be very helpful to new players. Having a GM give you some suggestions on how and where to start a roleplay would be welcome I am sure. Perhaps new players wouldn't come into the game with the mentality to only level up but actually see that along with the leveling you can incorporate roelplay and make game play more enjoyable.
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Giving unrequested advice and suggestions to improve a player's RP has to be done with tact and it should not be anything else than a suggestion, but I agree being this proactive without overpolicing would benefit the community. What I would like to avoid is suddenly letting the suggestions become prohibitions of things we might consider "not optimum" RP and I think it would be very easy to go down that path.
I don't think this should be a rule but something GMs should do as part of their role in promoting RP. Being RP nazis can achieve quite the opposite of that, turning people off and making them leave. So, I think 'Yes' to politely offer advice players are free to follow or ignore and a definite 'No' to enforcing a certain "right way" to RP.
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Dajolii, you probably didn't pay much attention to my posts. I didn't mean "optimum RP" since that's like requesting "optimum behaviour" which we know isn't by far a requisite in PlaneShift. Think about this relation; it makes sense since RP is about behaving in a certain way with your character in the game. If you can see the link, you can probably understand that it isn't wrong to request it from people in a roleplaying game, where roleplaying is part of behaving right (or at least allowing RP to go without interruptions. I consider OOC intrusions interruptions).
I think RP moderation should be conducted much like we see the devs conducting behaviour moderation. They know what's not right at all and they act on it, upon request or upon witnessing.
Example:
Someone is sucking people's souls. The GM appears, corrects the player. If the player insists the player is muted. Similar to what happens when someone is being overly annoying in a OOC way (which is a type of RP infraction as well).
Other Example:
Someone is having a long conversation about a toyota (within brackets or not). That is obviously OOC and the GM would intervene much like in the above example.
These are happenings that usually hurt roleplaying, much like other happenings related with behaviour do. If the GM's are aware of the setting, they can easily calculate what a character is or isn't able to do, what is considered a small violation and what isn't. With this knowledge they can do a good job moderating roleplay.
About rewarding players for RP... I have no clue about that. I'm concerned about the basic concepts of roleplay moderation which currently do not exist in this MMORPG.
Lines like "Who are you to tell me how to roleplay" are easily discredited when you present good arguments. Good moderation is also about knowing why a person is being disruptive, being able to prove it and stop it. Of course that requires GMs to be competent, but the same is true for the other areas they cover.
By Kerol's response I'm deducting that there is an actual effort to implement guide-lines the GMs can act upon. If that's true, then I'll be more than eager for the day, since that'll be a great evolution in PS.
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Sangwa, I read your posts. I just happen to disagree, not with the specific things you're pointing out but the consequences of the principle of allowing people to police RP.
My point is that you cannot punish people just for the quality of their RP, even when their RP sucks because what constitutes good or bad in terms of RP is relative. And if you seek quality control you need a standard or "optimum", a bar to separate good from bad, which cannot be defined fairly. We intervene when there are violations of game policies and OOC disruptions (like excessive OOC in the main tab, for instance).
If someone is RPing outside settings what we can do is just point out the flaws. It would be up to them to correct them. If they don't, the community will probably reject their plot and it will not come to fruition. We see it every now and then in the Guilds Forum, whenever someone makes a thread about their fantastic new guild that has nothing to do with PS settings. The community is quick and effective in these cases. Even when they are within settings but pushing the limits a bit, they get a reaction.
And, like I said, even if we had the authority to censor bad RP, at this point there are way too many gaps in the settings that force us to guess and interpret what we do have so we can cover that which has not been developed yet. This means there's no black and white. Someone's interpretation can be as valid as the next person, even though they might be completely different. The only ones who can rule over those issues are the settings guys and girls, not game masters, and even then, the settings department will need some time to discuss and evaluate the facts before they can pop an answer.
I understand there are blatant cases in which you know when someone is not RPing well. But what about those that are not so clear, those that dwell in the gray zones of what's still to be developed? Are we to use our judgment for that? GMs have good judgment but if there are no clear standards and guidelines to follow, it will be a mess. Some people would get away with some things and others would get the axe for much lesser things, depending on who was around to enforce good RP and what their mood was at the time. I can already hear the favoritism and harassment complains from players. That's not a professional or effective way to moderate. It would be very self-righteous for us to presume we can do this without hurting people and RP.
There is no need to punish people who are learning how to RP. The point is to teach them. Do we really want to be that unwelcoming as a community? Do we really want to have a RP police that will interrupt any RP for quality control? I'd be very annoyed if that happened to me. GMs cannot be online 24/7 and therefore we can only see bits of RP here and there, and there are other issues that need our attention when we're in-game, many of them far more important than following players around trying to detect any bad RP. And since we do not know everything that happens in a plot, we can easily jump to the wrong conclusions and shut down someone's RP arbitrarily and drive them away when maybe they had a valid reason for their plot we just missed or simply never allowed to be revealed.
If we are too inflexible in the learning curve, people will leave, and among them, valuable people who just needed to play and learn and whose contributions could make PS a better game; and those with experience will also be affected when they see their creativity limited by someone's (mis)understanding of good RP. Instead of being intolerant we need to be patient.
I think it's a good idea to be proactive and offer advice to help people improve their RP skills. It's a bad idea to enforce it, however.
Let's keep it fun. Let's keep it free.
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Sangwa, I read your posts. I just happen to disagree, not with the specific things you're pointing out but the consequences of the principle of allowing people to police RP.
You seem to be saying I want to: censor roleplay; create a subjective rigorous protocol to be followed; make that protocol based on punishing and not teaching. That's why I think you're not getting what I'm trying to say.
What criteria do you use to determine whether a person is misbehaving or not? Do you have a rigorous book you follow? Is it so hard to know when someone is misbehaving? What about the grey areas? What do you do then?
If you pretend to tell me that there is no way to know what is inadmissible, annoying or valid in roleplaying but that there is in behaving I will simply laugh. Because I've seen confusions in behaviour moderation much alike to what you're saying will result out of moderating roleplay. And these issues are dealt with legitimately, swiftly and effectively. It would increase your work to deal with roleplaying as well now, but isn't that supposed to happen? I mean, the community wants to roleplay and will certainly do its best to keep it working, but it would work faster if the GM's would support the roleplay concept inherent to the community. And the best part is that you're there to support us.
What I'm referring to is very simple. I'm not asking you to ban someone for saying "Hey, look at my /2 sword!" once. I'm asking you to mute the person when this type of behaviour becomes abusive (repetitive after warning.) If you're worried with grey areas, just ignore them. I'm considering grey areas issues like "He used OOC knowledge" or "He's acting out OOC emotions" and such. These small matters don't mind and can be regulated within the community.
I can let it slip when we have dubious plots around, for as long as I don't have ones where there is someone controlling minds or befriending Octarchs and Gods. It's pretty easy for you guys to ask us to ignore each other. But we'd all rather play with as much players possible (get rid of the OOC), with as much quality as possible (get rid of godmodding).
Our current situation isn't bad. Heavens, I've been here since MB and I can tell roleplaying has improved. I'm just seeking out better even.
EDIT to add:
I'm also not saying you have to be 24/7 around people. I thought I made that clear when I mentioned "upon request or witnessing." The community will usually take care of advising people, but some insist on being OOC or godmodding. Shouldn't you help us then?
EDIT to shorten text.
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I do not think you want to control or censor RP and I didn't intend to make it sound like you did. However, I do think that's what's going to happen if we start policing RP. If you are in a situation where you need help from a GM you can call us. We can talk to the person who's godmodding or whatever, offering advice to improve their RP, stating we have received complains and that they're more likely to succeed if they follow our advice. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it is appropriate to punish bad roleplayers.
We have many policies and protocols we follow when we police the game. They cover the most common issues we have to deal with, like improper names, bug exploits, inappropriate language, OOC spamming, etc. So, yes. You could say we do have a rule book that covers most scenarios and that helps us act swiftly and fairly in pretty much all situations. When there are problems in-game that are not covered by our policies we discuss them thoroughly and we try to reach a fair solution. If the problem becomes more common, we make a new policy to deal with it. The discussion slows the process of solving issues since we don't give rulings on the spot except when there's a clear protocol to follow. If we applied this to RP, the scenarios where we could act on the spot and fix the problem right away would be a lot fewer than the ones where we would need to discuss with settings and among ourselves. So it wouldn't be a practical solution but a rather disruptive one, making people stop until we can clear things out. That intervention can have negative effects on the player who's trying to promote RP, especially if they see themselves forced to stop to be told later they were right in the first place.
So, yes. If a person is spamming with OOC they get muted because there's a rule against excessive OOC in the main tab. If a person is godmodding, however, we can be asked to tell them they are and ask them to avoid it, but they would not be punished by us if they chose not to follow our advice. We did our best to help them, if they don't want to take our help, they'll end up roleplaying alone and in many other players' ignore list. It's still their choice though. If they break any game rule in the process we would act accordingly but that's a different issue. They would be punished for disruptive behavior or whatever they resort to but not for godmodding.
I think it's important to keep IC and OOC separate both when we are roleplaying and when we are enforcing rules. The most entangled issues we gotta deal with are when players have problems among themselves mixing up IC and OOC and the solution for the problem often leaves both parties dissatisfied. In those cases, more than a fix to the problem we gotta do damage control. It's a mess. I can only imagine what would happen if we started mixing IC and OOC while enforcing the rules.
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So it wouldn't be a practical solution but a rather disruptive one, making people stop until we can clear things out. That intervention can have negative effects on the player who's trying to promote RP, especially if they see themselves forced to stop to be told later they were right in the first place.
Doesn't mean we can't discuss things in the background and find resolutions to common issues without disturbing players until we have these settled for us :)
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Related point: What all falls under the godmodding umbrella? Everyone agrees on "/me slits Zhai's throat" being godmodding, but others say that its possible to make chars "too powerful". What gives?
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Related point: What all falls under the godmodding umbrella? Everyone agrees on "/me slits Zhai's throat" being godmodding, but others say that its possible to make chars "too powerful". What gives?
That's the thing. It's hard to tell where the line is when we talk about godmodding and other RP flaws that are rather subjective, so trying to police it can lead to more conflict. Even if we do not allow playing characters to have above average physical abilities, how to RP magic properly would be an issue.
So it wouldn't be a practical solution but a rather disruptive one, making people stop until we can clear things out. That intervention can have negative effects on the player who's trying to promote RP, especially if they see themselves forced to stop to be told later they were right in the first place.
Doesn't mean we can't discuss things in the background and find resolutions to common issues without disturbing players until we have these settled for us :)
True. But either way the solution for those problems would not be quick. Not to mention that if the bad roleplayers are allowed to carry on, then the disturbed ones would be those who reported the bad RP in the first place. So we'll always be making someone unhappy.