Author Topic: Better Game Moderation  (Read 3152 times)

Dajoji

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Re: Better Game Moderation
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2008, 04:39:21 pm »
Sangwa, I read your posts. I just happen to disagree, not with the specific things you're pointing out but the consequences of the principle of allowing people to police RP.

My point is that you cannot punish people just for the quality of their RP, even when their RP sucks because what constitutes good or bad in terms of RP is relative. And if you seek quality control you need a standard or "optimum", a bar to separate good from bad, which cannot be defined fairly. We intervene when there are violations of game policies and OOC disruptions (like excessive OOC in the main tab, for instance).

If someone is RPing outside settings what we can do is just point out the flaws. It would be up to them to correct them. If they don't, the community will probably reject their plot and it will not come to fruition. We see it every now and then in the Guilds Forum, whenever someone makes a thread about their fantastic new guild that has nothing to do with PS settings. The community is quick and effective in these cases. Even when they are within settings but pushing the limits a bit, they get a reaction.

And, like I said, even if we had the authority to censor bad RP, at this point there are way too many gaps in the settings that force us to guess and interpret what we do have so we can cover that which has not been developed yet. This means there's no black and white. Someone's interpretation can be as valid as the next person, even though they might be completely different. The only ones who can rule over those issues are the settings guys and girls, not game masters, and even then, the settings department will need some time to discuss and evaluate the facts before they can pop an answer.

I understand there are blatant cases in which you know when someone is not RPing well. But what about those that are not so clear, those that dwell in the gray zones of what's still to be developed? Are we to use our judgment for that? GMs have good judgment but if there are no clear standards and guidelines to follow, it will be a mess. Some people would get away with some things and others would get the axe for much lesser things, depending on who was around to enforce good RP and what their mood was at the time. I can already hear the favoritism and harassment complains from players. That's not a professional or effective way to moderate. It would be very self-righteous for us to presume we can do this without hurting people and RP.

There is no need to punish people who are learning how to RP. The point is to teach them. Do we really want to be that unwelcoming as a community? Do we really want to have a RP police that will interrupt any RP for quality control? I'd be very annoyed if that happened to me. GMs cannot be online 24/7 and therefore we can only see bits of RP here and there, and there are other issues that need our attention when we're in-game, many of them far more important than following players around trying to detect any bad RP. And since we do not know everything that happens in a plot, we can easily jump to the wrong conclusions and shut down someone's RP arbitrarily and drive them away when maybe they had a valid reason for their plot we just missed or simply never allowed to be revealed.

If we are too inflexible in the learning curve, people will leave, and among them, valuable people who just needed to play and learn and whose contributions could make PS a better game; and those with experience will also be affected when they see their creativity limited by someone's (mis)understanding of good RP. Instead of being intolerant we need to be patient.

I think it's a good idea to be proactive and offer advice to help people improve their RP skills. It's a bad idea to enforce it, however.

Let's keep it fun. Let's keep it free.


Sangwa

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Re: Better Game Moderation
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2008, 05:45:22 pm »
Sangwa, I read your posts. I just happen to disagree, not with the specific things you're pointing out but the consequences of the principle of allowing people to police RP.

You seem to be saying I want to: censor roleplay; create a subjective rigorous protocol to be followed; make that protocol based on punishing and not teaching. That's why I think you're not getting what I'm trying to say.

What criteria do you use to determine whether a person is misbehaving or not? Do you have a rigorous book you follow? Is it so hard to know when someone is misbehaving? What about the grey areas? What do you do then?

If you pretend to tell me that there is no way to know what is inadmissible, annoying or valid in roleplaying but that there is in behaving I will simply laugh. Because I've seen confusions in behaviour moderation much alike to what you're saying will result out of moderating roleplay. And these issues are dealt with legitimately, swiftly and effectively. It would increase your work to deal with roleplaying as well now, but isn't that supposed to happen? I mean, the community wants to roleplay and will certainly do its best to keep it working, but it would work faster if the GM's would support the roleplay concept inherent to the community. And the best part is that you're there to support us.

What I'm referring to is very simple. I'm not asking you to ban someone for saying "Hey, look at my /2 sword!" once. I'm asking you to mute the person when this type of behaviour becomes abusive (repetitive after warning.) If you're worried with grey areas, just ignore them. I'm considering grey areas issues like "He used OOC knowledge" or "He's acting out OOC emotions" and such. These small matters don't mind and can be regulated within the community.

I can let it slip when we have dubious plots around, for as long as I don't have ones where there is someone controlling minds or befriending Octarchs and Gods. It's pretty easy for you guys to ask us to ignore each other. But we'd all rather play with as much players possible (get rid of the OOC), with as much quality as possible (get rid of godmodding).
Our current situation isn't bad. Heavens, I've been here since MB and I can tell roleplaying has improved. I'm just seeking out better even.

EDIT to add:
I'm also not saying you have to be 24/7 around people. I thought I made that clear when I mentioned "upon request or witnessing." The community will usually take care of advising people, but some insist on being OOC or godmodding. Shouldn't you help us then?

EDIT to shorten text.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 06:02:12 pm by Sangwa »
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

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Dajoji

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Re: Better Game Moderation
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2008, 06:38:08 pm »
I do not think you want to control or censor RP and I didn't intend to make it sound like you did. However, I do think that's what's going to happen if we start policing RP. If you are in a situation where you need help from a GM you can call us. We can talk to the person who's godmodding or whatever, offering advice to improve their RP, stating we have received complains and that they're more likely to succeed if they follow our advice. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it is appropriate to punish bad roleplayers.

We have many policies and protocols we follow when we police the game. They cover the most common issues we have to deal with, like improper names, bug exploits, inappropriate language, OOC spamming, etc. So, yes. You could say we do have a rule book that covers most scenarios and that helps us act swiftly and fairly in pretty much all situations. When there are problems in-game that are not covered by our policies we discuss them thoroughly and we try to reach a fair solution. If the problem becomes more common, we make a new policy to deal with it. The discussion slows the process of solving issues since we don't give rulings on the spot except when there's a clear protocol to follow. If we applied this to RP, the scenarios where we could act on the spot and fix the problem right away would be a lot fewer than the ones where we would need to discuss with settings and among ourselves. So it wouldn't be a practical solution but a rather disruptive one, making people stop until we can clear things out. That intervention can have negative effects on the player who's trying to promote RP, especially if they see themselves forced to stop to be told later they were right in the first place.

So, yes. If a person is spamming with OOC they get muted because there's a rule against excessive OOC in the main tab. If a person is godmodding, however, we can be asked to tell them they are and ask them to avoid it, but they would not be punished by us if they chose not to follow our advice. We did our best to help them, if they don't want to take our help, they'll end up roleplaying alone and in many other players' ignore list. It's still their choice though. If they break any game rule in the process we would act accordingly but that's a different issue. They would be punished for disruptive behavior or whatever they resort to but not for godmodding.

I think it's important to keep IC and OOC separate both when we are roleplaying and when we are enforcing rules. The most entangled issues we gotta deal with are when players have problems among themselves mixing up IC and OOC and the solution for the problem often leaves both parties dissatisfied. In those cases, more than a fix to the problem we gotta do damage control. It's a mess. I can only imagine what would happen if we started mixing IC and OOC while enforcing the rules.


Kerol

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Re: Better Game Moderation
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2008, 07:20:36 pm »
Quote
So it wouldn't be a practical solution but a rather disruptive one, making people stop until we can clear things out. That intervention can have negative effects on the player who's trying to promote RP, especially if they see themselves forced to stop to be told later they were right in the first place.
Doesn't mean we can't discuss things in the background and find resolutions to common issues without disturbing players until we have these settled for us :)



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Kaerli

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Re: Better Game Moderation
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2008, 09:54:59 pm »
Related point: What all falls under the godmodding umbrella?  Everyone agrees on "/me slits Zhai's throat" being godmodding, but others say that its possible to make chars "too powerful".  What gives?

Dajoji

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Re: Better Game Moderation
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2008, 10:07:43 pm »
Related point: What all falls under the godmodding umbrella?  Everyone agrees on "/me slits Zhai's throat" being godmodding, but others say that its possible to make chars "too powerful".  What gives?
That's the thing. It's hard to tell where the line is when we talk about godmodding and other RP flaws that are rather subjective, so trying to police it can lead to more conflict. Even if we do not allow playing characters to have above average physical abilities, how to RP magic properly would be an issue.

Quote
So it wouldn't be a practical solution but a rather disruptive one, making people stop until we can clear things out. That intervention can have negative effects on the player who's trying to promote RP, especially if they see themselves forced to stop to be told later they were right in the first place.
Doesn't mean we can't discuss things in the background and find resolutions to common issues without disturbing players until we have these settled for us :)

True. But either way the solution for those problems would not be quick. Not to mention that if the bad roleplayers are allowed to carry on, then the disturbed ones would be those who reported the bad RP in the first place. So we'll always be making someone unhappy.