PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Garile on April 06, 2008, 10:47:41 pm
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Is it just me or is roleplaying a lot less around then it used to be?
I hardly encountr people roleplaying if I walk around and I used to come around some roleplays quite a bit. Is it the introductionsystem that makes people do random roleplaying a lot less? i know it has hindered me quite a bit but I am kinda suprised how little I see it these days. or am I just looking in he wrong places? ;)
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I think that people are a bit bored of roleplaying and just want to speak normally like in any other game. i try to keep the "virtual world illusion" a bit less broken but its hard when you have to talk about the gui and help people find "what to press" and things like that. Anyone like how the ps ppl are concentrating less on the roleplaying part and more on minigames? i don't. I hate minigames. I come for the main game. Im sorta getting bored of roleplaying too but i don't like minigames. They should work on improving the main game. I HATE MINIGAMES >:( >:( >:( >:( It just draws attention away from the other things in the game, mabe a couple minigames wouldn't hurt but not too many. The next thing you know, all the 3-d models will be slot machines and the whole world will be a casino.
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you are aware that the minigame thing on the front page was the April fool's day joke right?
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I also have the feeling that the small 'random' RPs have reduced a lot. At least that's what I noticed during my last couple of visits of Yliakum. Kinda makes me sad.
I'm not sure if it's the introduction-system's fault, but imho it plays a part.
@bond304: Cool down and have a look at the news' date again ;)
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sadly i have to agree. while before 0.4 smaller groups standing around providing some sort of an alive feeling, nowadays it feels much more sterile to me - roads and the plaza is much more deserted, compared to the past.
introduction may still be a reason. i often meet people my char was familiar with, but still wasnt introduced to, to also grant technical possibilities for recognition. thus, i am sure many random meetings that once lead to interaction are still simply missed due to lack of attention (or being too slow to check descriptions;)).
explicitly i would like to point out that for quite some time now (at least for what i have heard) known names in fact stick. while in the early days of 0.4 it was highly discouraging to have no chance to keep knowing names. this seems to be gone now - so it may just take some time until you "collected" all introductions again.
or am I just looking in he wrong places?
seconding lol
about minigames:
i dont think i am the only one knowing of people who arent very aware of that april fooling tradition. i strongly recommend to add a resolving comment to the main page (http://www.planeshift.it/).
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With three towns now, folks are a bit more scattered. That reduces the 'clumping effect' of roleplaying much more than the intro system. I have found that the intro system does not hamper the small, random RPs much, and in fact have had more new (and old) players start conversations with me in my limited time ingame than before. Larger RPs are hampered, and would benefit from some mods to the system, or a completely separate recognition system (which will come in time).
(already done, Velh.)
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More towns and the number of people online didn't really go up since a very long time. If i was going to gues, it is the very undeveloped introduction system as a rp barrier too.
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it's also now spring time.
birds chirping, flowers starting to grow and blossom. people coming out from hibernation and doing things outside again....
a lonely neko still looking for love....
could also play a role in it me thinks.
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I think that a big problem is the mine in Gurgontid...
No one knows when it will be easy to make money again, so everyone is hoarding trias and leveling and saving for guildhouses. If there was some kind of downside to mining to discourage massive strip mining, people would be more inclined to find ways to entertain themselves. I tried to bring a little life to mining, and spark some small random rps, but no one is ever interested. They just want to grab as much ore as they can while they can. And it is very difficult to conduct large planned rps when everyone leaves the mine en masse to participate in it.
And no one wants to spend money. That makes me laugh, especially since trias are so abundant now...
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I have seen a lot of RPing lately. The thing is that everyone waits until someone else starts RPing to do it in reasonable numbers. I've been at the tavern quite a few times when there were various RPs going on. The problem is, it didn't happened until I RPed. It's like people forget to RP and have to be reminded. ::)
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Meh they say this all the time,
Rp like the stock market, has its ups and its downs.
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If i was going to gues, it is the very undeveloped introduction system as a rp barrier too.
Then perhaps the devs should cancel this intro thing until they have it fully developed. I've had far too many troubles with it. :(
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Here is my two cents, for whatever that is worth: Yes I agree that role play has diminished greatly. It could be the new introduction system, but I find it sad that when I go into game, of which is rare these days, and find most of my buddy list is not highlighted. I wonder where all the people have gone and why?
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For some reason I tend to agree with SerqFeht, on the other hand though I actually cant really imagine RPers going to constant mining all of a sudden. Just doesnt make that much sense to me. To safe trias while its that easy to gather may be sort of valid, but I would expect RPers to mine for a shorter time - but meanwhile we have that situation for several weeks now, and I never read about any RPer explaining to be "unavailable" because he's mining for 6weeks now (feel free to link me to an opposite). And having extremely crowded 100m², with mostly mute or "wts"'-ing miners should hardly be a reason for RPers now move over to Gugrontid - would it?
After all though I see it as the only major "new feature" since 0.4 (besides /introduction) - probably thats why I tend to agree here nonetheless.
To not see nametags floating above heads I dont take as discouraging to go for casual events (to avoid the term "RP") with bypassers. It surely took some time to get used to that apparent anonymousity, but its in fact no difference if you see an unknown name or no name at all. The main problem is there just are hardly random bypassers.
I would like to once more mention though, that the forced anonymousity is way too unrealistic, and considering PS a game (-> fun!) rather tiring, since you wouldnt recognize someone who you might know as the one usually sitting at the pub from 20-22, or often carrying planks (or whatever). I feel, hard to say, "isolated", or some sort of limited in my senses nowadays, and that effect of being "limited" may cause one being focused more on people I already know... guh, no idea.
Again: Extend that system (dont revert), make it for people can add custom nametags, and perhaps players will even be intruiged by simply finding out features of chars to enrich their individual appearance of PS by fancy nametags.
To what Leama says: Same experience here, my BL is red much more often than it once was. The reason for that I see in what I said earlier, that within the first weeks of 0.4, having to face the same char over and over and over again without a nametag may have annoyed or tired people for they may have left.
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Velh I wish there was a way to bring the 'good old days' back. Oh well, such is life as they say, right?
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Velh I wish there was a way to bring the 'good old days' back. Oh well, such is life as they say, right?
Yep,
Its just like willy wonka's chocolate factory, you can't go back, only forward. :P
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The people that play right now wish it were like it was when they started 6 months ago. The people who played 6 months ago wish it was like the times they played a year and a half ago. The people who played a year and a half ago.........................
:whistling:
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Here is my two cents, for whatever that is worth: Yes I agree that role play has diminished greatly. It could be the new introduction system, but I find it sad that when I go into game, of which is rare these days, and find most of my buddy list is not highlighted. I wonder where all the people have gone and why?
To what Leama says: Same experience here, my BL is red much more often than it once was. The reason for that I see in what I said earlier, that within the first weeks of 0.4, having to face the same char over and over and over again without a nametag may have annoyed or tired people for they may have left.
I have to disagree.
Players come and go and that was never either way, not a month ago, neither a year ago.
The reason why your (our) buddy lists are all red is because there have been not many additions to in the last times. This is an assumption in Leamas's case but considering the background I pretty much doubt is unfounded.
If you are not in-game then you don't meet new people.. and the ones you already knew will eventually get busy in RL or find another game and quit.
Now.. even being in-game the introductions system makes the fact of meeting people quite a burden. At the end I took the intro-spam way myself.. I'm tired of having people asking me to introduce and doing so myself as well, when I still don't see a reason for a system that makes my char partially blind and deaf. But certainly it stops me from talking to random people since I can't make a difference between one and another as it is now: an Autism Generator.
As to why there are less bypassers.. I can see are less but not that less. But then yes I agree that the new city is probably the cause and the fact that there isn't really much of interest to do in Hydlaa now. There are a whole bunch of players who like to RP but do as well like to train/save money/collect weapons/craft/kill mobs.. and that requires money. Where is the money? At the platinum mine.. there they go. It's not only the pure PLers to be there, even though surely the pure RPers aren't there either. It's that whole mid range of players (which are probably the largest of the 3 groups) who are caught there as well.
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Holy snarks noriin is alive!
>Player Listbard hugs Noriin!
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:offtopic:
Awwww ^_^'
She is, and after she survived marrying the Develh I doubt nothing else can kill her now!
Ph34r t3h b4nsh33!
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Considering this threads reason, and what you say, Neko, I would have to presume 3 years ago one could find breathtaking plots and tales (to avoid the term "RP") all over and everywhere?
In that case, yep, I would wish it was like years ago :whistling:
Okay, serious now..=P
Noriin, I think you got a good point about the "empty" BL. If I am not mistaking most of the time there were around 180-200 players online at a time. So as you say, it indeed could be all about refreshing it, adding new friends to it that is. Nevertheless it appears to be odd that after more than one client changes people remained, and soon after 0.4 so many "disappeared".
However, which brings up my next point.
If most of the (newer) players are around Gugrontid, where apparently not much roleplaying is going on, how would they start feeling appetite?
It may be only me, but when I started I was intruiged by plots like the Dermorian Lords' one, to name one,rather soon, because it simply was present where I (almost) unavoidably had to roam too: At Harns. I sold my mined gold, and I tried out crafting - and while doing so I had to gather that fascinating roleplay of others.
Would that mean I will have to locate my roleplay into that questionably fancy and picturuous platinum mine?
I say, seeing the current situation, there should be taken efforts/changes to drag the new(er) players to the towns as well (not only, of course, its about balance after all). A muddy, dusty or just dirty mine cant be the place for people to hang around, can it?
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Meh they say this all the time,
Rp like the stock market, has its ups and its downs.
I'm with you on this one :P
At first I was going to agree and say the rp is lacking till I thought about it. People bring up these kinds of discussions every now and then and it seems to me the only real truth is that rp will always have ups and downs. For you things might be down, for someone else there may be a lot more rp going on with them. The cure to this is simply starting rp. Don't wait for someone to start rping or sit around while someone who is trying to rp is ignored. Just try and encourge it, start some rp. I'm sure there are plenty of people as bored as you. :P
Velh I wish there was a way to bring the 'good old days' back. Oh well, such is life as they say, right?
I think when it comes down to it the 'good old days' is just the time when you first start rping in ps. It's when your first introduced to it and some other rper is pretty much bringing you around the town, your meeting people for the first time, etc. Once that time has passed you get bored because you expect things to just happen like when you first started. Hence you lose you 'good old days.' Try harder to be the one starting things and getting people involved in whatever rp you would enjoy. I've no doubt someone will respond if you try hard enough and you'll no doubt have fun. When everyone waits for stuff to happen then you shouldn't have a doubt that nothing will ever happen :P
Edit:
As for the hype about the new mine just forget about it, eventually it will pass. When you think about it one would assume that once something new and big is added to the game you'd expect people to rush over to it and for a while remained fixed and focused on that one thing. The new players will definately get drawn in. If you want to have a bit of fun though I'd say go there and start rp anyways. Few people will pay attention but it will at least let those new players know there is something else to the game besides mining :)
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I doubt though that even those market stocks wont go up again by remaining seated with folded hands, and a warm and optmistic smile on your lips xD
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There is always the possibility that people took the opportunity to make new characters instead of continuing to play the old ones and have to introduce themselves to everyone. And having made new characters they may wish to remain unidentified with the old ones except for possibly a few close buddies. Any new guilds been springing up lately that may have attracted them? New guilds would definitely want to gather wealth to get a house and so be rather busy persuing that course.
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Considering this threads reason, and what you say, Neko, I would have to presume 3 years ago one could find breathtaking plots and tales (to avoid the term "RP") all over and everywhere?
In that case, yep, I would wish it was like years ago :whistling:
actually it's more along the lines of that they say it because they thought there was more RP around when they were first starting out, because they were new, so they went around chatting with a large range of folks, and over time they continued to RP with the same people as the list slowly thinned due to many leaving/going inactive, and since they never made new acquaintances, they now see the RP as much less than it was before, when in reality, it probably is right around the same over all.
:)
*Edit*
actually, 3 years ago, there was nothing to do but stand around hunting crystals and chatting in the tavern, so maybe there was more back then. But on the same sense, there is so much more to do now in game to keep peoples interest levels, so I'd rather take now or then. after all, if you want to stand around and just chat all day long, why don't you open up a text messenger program? :)
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I miss how it will be in the good new days six months from now. Ah, now that was will be a good time. Just thinking about the people I have not yet met makes me miss them.
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Meh they say this all the time,
Rp like the stock market, has its ups and its downs.
Exactly. There are up and downs and have been for the four or so years I've been around. It's always like this around now. Spring and crunch time are upon us.
And I love you, Neko :P
Offtopic: The only thing that makes me miss the old times is the people who have left since then. Kada especially, lately. And Cad
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Now.. even being in-game the introductions system makes the fact of meeting people quite a burden. At the end I took the intro-spam way myself.. I'm tired of having people asking me to introduce and doing so myself as well, when I still don't see a reason for a system that makes my char partially blind and deaf. But certainly it stops me from talking to random people since I can't make a difference between one and another as it is now: an Autism Generator.
IMO The introduce system helps "small RP's" a lot. With not seeing the name (and if you don't cheat) and only reading the description you don't really know who that is. So if you're somehow interested you should have a talk or something to break the ice. This in contrast with the 'I-see-all-names-and-I-heard-that-that-person-is-a-nub/sucks' or the 'I-see-all-names-and-that-girl/guy-has-a-stupid/nubish-name-I-bet-she/he-suck-in-RP-let's-not-engage'.
If those scenario's are useless-thought flows of mine, then still the introduction system motivates people a lot more to have small conversations to get to know each other.
It may be a pest to /introduce yourself to all your old buddies, but I think a character wipe would kill ya if you take re-introducing that hard.
Given your intro-spam adventures you for one would have much less 'random' encounters as people see you and think "I know her already" and greet you quickly. While people who don't know you (read you have not introduced yourself to) might read your description and think "Hey, what a nice girl, let's get it on" or "What is she doing? melting ore" ect. (random example, I don't really know if you melt or not :P)
So basically, intro-spam killed the small-RP... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LB6Q_oycfQ)
(above situations with encounters of numerous small-RP's are as far as I know only my experience, experience may differ from eprson to person)
:lol: :flowers:
EDIT: just a nice link :P
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Right, I'm pretty much sleepy right now so forgive me if all I post is just garbage :p
First of all I think that the custom tags, which have been strongly asked for, may sort quite a few of the current issues if they get implemented. Also, I wouldn't want to help turning this thread be another rush against the intro system because it wasn't meant to be, but as I'm quoted I feel like the need to reply o/
But my post is about the current situation as the thread is.
I like to assume that a high percentage of the players are mature enough to neither cheat, nor to make use of OOC info in their RP. Therefore, I don't see the need of a system that mechanizes something we've already been doing for that long without other problem that one or another new player using the name labels in a wrong way (oh my, if somebody else does that i'll pull all my hairs off!! ...wasn't the case...). Now my character is unable to recognize the guy who walks the groffel every day at the same spot.. or that merchant she bought from (wait, she never asked his name? how unpolite..) because I assume her eyes have gone dumb and only recognizes the ppl whose name she knows of. For some reason, she neither can recognize any voice as everybody sounds the same. Must be either magic or the wish of the Gods ;)
Now, those small RP's. They are brought from an OOC fact, and they are unrealistic. It's obvious that most of those people are just talking to do that.. (hey-hello-im this-im that-you nice?-yes-bye-bye). Instead.. in my daily life I talk to many people I don't know the name of. I may have met this same woman in at the bus stop perhaps a hundred times, I may have spoken to her another 10 or 15.. but I never asked her name.. Nobody runs around a huge city introducing him/herself to everybody (that is more likely to happen in a village with 30 inhabitants though...) because everybody would point at them and classify them as freaks, before pulling their cellphones to take pictures of the weirdo.
Another situation: I stand at the tavern for 2-3 hours.. nobody of the ones who were there when i stepped in are here now, instead another whole crowd surrounds me. So do I really need to, every 10-15 mins, get an ooc tell or worse.. ooc disruption in main because somebody can't read my name? No thanks, I still prefer smooth RPing and that I take..
Introductions in their current state are annoying and disruptive, and if they force you into RP then that's driven by OOC reasons and in my opinion shouldn't be praised.
Just my POV ;)
But please sombody bring this thread back to its topic ^_^'
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Don't underestimate quests as being a factor as well. Maybe not as much as mining but lots of goodies are only available through quests, especially if you are a glyph collector or you really want to see the winch. Many of these quests result in a lot (and I mean a LOT) of running around, which keeps people quite busy going here and there and not stopping for RP. There have been plenty of times I passed by an apparent RP and was all like "oh, I really want to participate but I've got a long journey ahead of me and don't want to be distracted and forget what I was doing."
Don't get me wrong, this is not a complaint. Having a lot of quests available is great and sure, during many trips to the eagle bronze doors I can't help but wish for alternative modes of transportation, but at this stage of development it's just not a priority. It's just more of a cause and effect. More things to do = less time to RP. Once people get their fill of questing, mining, training, etc., they'll get back to a little RP now and again. :) So all things are cyclical.
There was one stretch where my buddy list was all red for like 3 weeks straight. So I settled down, started hanging around the tavern, made some new friends and lots of RP followed. So if all your friends have left PS, make new ones. ;)
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In my opinion, the decrease of roleplay is mainly due to a lack of encouragement of new players to roleplay. Most new players are of the casual sort, they google MMORPG and find PlaneShift. Then, they do what they know from MMORPGs, gaining money, grinding and levelling. With guildhouses for sale, all guilds are only set upon acquiring one. Smelters want to smelt platinum. Fighters want to grow stronger. Though they can't do anything of these without money, this is why they need money. And not only little amount, but huge sums, as training is not free. Furthermore, if they eventually got the money, they need to train. But how do they train? They spend hours and hours doing the same action all over again. No time for roleplay, as many people have a limited amount of time available. No time for those little roleplays, they waste precious time. Large roleplays can be forgotten, as they are even more time consuming. And if a large scale roleplay happens, it is always the same players. GM Events don't count, as they attract some people like moths are attracted by the light.
I enjoyed roleplaying a merchant, and I did far better than many miners, as resources like gold were rare. People didn't have so much money to spend, and for me, roleplay was rewarding. Now, with platinum in game and stat based prices, I don't feel that roleplay brings me any further in merchandising. Of course, many people would be glad to roleplay with a trader, but it is only a handful, always the same. In my eyes, PlaneShift needs more tiny impulses for roleplay, as those make players interested in roleplay. Currently, PlaneShift is an egalitarian society, only counting the players. In an egalitarian society, were everyone can achieve the same things, they mostly do them on their own. Interdependance is needed, especially with risk and reward situations. If players can make their characters take a risk in order to achieve things, they are often willing to do it. But currently, there is nothing to reach with risks. A plot to become the leader of Hydlaa's official Tanning Guild for example would be a risk. In an egalitarian society, most are not interested in doing anything, as they can do things on their own. What is needed is a stimulating system that allows players to roleplay whatever they like. Currently, no player character will ever become vigesimi for example. A player run government might be totally chaotic, but it would at least give players some impulses to roleplay. The new players want exactly that, to become famous, strong, rich. If these aims require roleplay, they will learn roleplay. They adapt. However, becoming rich and powerful at the moment requires two things, money and training. New players tend to crowd with themselves, they feel appaled by the hardcore roleplayers. If you got a lot of people wanting to achieve exactly the same, they will eventually form an association.
I am positive that if these basic aims of a new player require roleplay, they will eventually roleplay. If mining was restricted, players would need to roleplay in order to get a license. Not with quests, as these are done alone most of the time, but through a player character that acts as an overseer of the mine, for example.
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A bit short on time at the moment, so only a short reply:
The increased area while having the same amount of players at a time surely did a part of the trick to have less dense "atmosphere", random roleplays that is. Also, more quests probably may keep some players busy - nothing wrong with neither of both, nice and all, but I dont see why is it emphasizing roleplay. In fact I dont really see wheres the motivation to roleplay in PS at all, actually its only the players to motion a newbie roleplay or not (yes, worded provokingly and exaggeratedly, right as some of the following).
Donari, you picture a pretty interesting Planeshift there. Your approach on motivating players to go for roleplaying sounds intruiging, but still would need a serious thought on it. Currently players find rat holes (exploits) to promote in what is apparently worth it: levelling or gaining items/trias. In a PS where positions like even the the vig's one could be a chance, there always would be players to cheat too. And I probably would prefer a fully (over-)maxed mute ooc-char, over a comparable player playing the vig.
But yes yes, I can already hear you xD.. with instances to control and assuming a bugfree version, it would be much better, although there seem to have to be other players to influence/control your roleplay, thus if you are "allowed" to reach your goal (say to become vig: or other positions of limited availability) - keyword favorism.
Maybe you could compare the problems I see there with buying guildhouses nowadays: Currently there are/were only few houses available and only to be bought by "guilds". There we go.. at the moment I know of one house not (and prolly never really) owned by a "guild", and others I am not sure if they roleplay validly at all. At the moment all you need to do to buy a house which apparently grants you fame and honor, is to.. take tedious oocish actions (piling up trias). With "one" free vigesimi position in your example, it would be a tough job for the "overseers" (devs, GMs? Scripted?) to decide who to give that position if two decently and fittingly roleplaying players claim.
Nonetheless, your idea at least would give some "real" motivation to roleplay, and would make Planeshift something extraordinary special. And however, miners needing a "license" for their "dig" shortie will work at all sounds funny and intruiging the same time. I hope the devs may ponder about some similar solution.
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Bugs would be a slight problem. How can one cheat in roleplay? Not at all. The positions would be balanced, by no limitations. If you are a bad vigesimi, and if you mistreat everyone, you can be sure of having a dagger in your heart one day. Good old Fertedian Dalko. Of course there could still be a powerlevelled person fighting his way through the guards, but I hope that eventually you'll need to master roleplay before you can master a skill. The system would eventually find a balance, and I am positive that this balance will be enjoyed by anyone. If there is no counterforce against something, one will devellop. You only need to make such a devellopment possible.
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Well... here is my $0.02 worth:
1. I am new to PS. I started a week or so before .4. I am into RP, but it is very difficult to always stay in-character when trying to learn the game.
2. The introduction system is um... how to say this delicately... obnoxious.
a. I have had to introduce myself to the same person multiple times and still show as unknown to them.
b. I also get no indication right now that /introduce is doing anything.
c. I get annoyed that I cannot see who anyone is. I get random messages that say "Someone says:".
d. Even the people I talk with regularly or are in my guild show up as "[unknown]" when I click on them to trade.
e. I understand what the DEVs are trying to do, but this is not working well and may need to be removed and revisited later.
3. I know that there is a LOT of mining going on right now. For me, since critters have been impervious so frequently that is the only way for me to make trias to train my skills. However, I have stayed in-character talking to other players while resting between mining expeditions and enjoyed myself quite throughly.
For the record, I find this game VERY enjoyable and I think that the DEVS, in general, have done a wonderful job. I just hadn't seen a good place to weigh in on the introduction issue before this.
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It all comes to how the players spend their time in game. It's not the game's fault if the players only want to do quests, or mine, or train. Like Illysia said, if you want to RP, then RP "and they will come".
If RP is affected by the introduction system then this very system has put in evidence that the average player doesn't know how to RP well with only IC information. It's the players' fault really, not the game's. RP is about actions and reactions. One character says or does something, the others react to that and the process continues. If a player's name tag is the only thing other players can react to, then they are flawed in their approach. I imagined that the lack of a name tag that, in reality shouldn't even be there, would promote more description reading. Descriptions are unique (unless left untouched after character creation) and players who knew each other before 4.0 are likely to have read each others' descriptions so recognizing each other shouldn't be that hard. What's happening is people are not using the information that IC makes more sense to have. Until characters are fully customizable, if you want to recognize someone you should check their description. You want to be recognized? Personalize your description and avoid writing 10 pages (or add a quick description before that).
Players need to adapt to the new system and see it as an opportunity to improve their RP. Despite the flaws it may have right now, it makes sense to have it and it will be tweaked along the way.
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Sorry, but your comparisons flaw quite a bit:
introduction system then this very system has put in evidence that the average player doesn't know how to RP well with only IC information
This has been discussed often meanwhile: If all the introduction system provides can be taken IC information, then my chars would be blind and deaf. Support is meant to be provided by descriptions: read below though.
the lack of a name tag that, in reality shouldn't even be there, would promote more description reading
In reality you have the face of a person, the sort fo unique sound of a voice, heck even scents, to recognize, in PS you have a Someone and a Someone. Meanwhile I added "me" and "my" to my chatbubbles-config for I at least have a chance to keep track (to be busy catching bubbles on the screen once more makes it hard to read all descriptions of every bypasser).
Next point: descriptions. You seriously try to tell me you are reading descriptions of all 8 customers in Kadas when entering, then always turning to check description whos leaving, or of a new one entering .. I tried that in the beginning, its tiring, takes away huge amounts of time spent for roleplaying, distracts - unrealistic, no fun.
f a player's name tag is the only thing other players can react to, then they are flawed in their approach.
Again two points: You may have forgotten that not all of us are native english/american. Not everyone knows/is capable of using fancy and picturous ic-speech ingame for being recognized at once. Second point, though talked to death, if I am meant to be reading descriptions to keep aware who is the one Someone and who is the other Someone, then this would eat up all my time ingame - I would bet most of the (active) players will agree on that. After all, almost all active players say that system still flaws greatly - all of them poor roleplayers?
Until characters are fully customizable,
Why coming with something prolly very far in the future, when you can add these custom nametags? Let me add "Ragged Ylian" and "Noble dwarf" and gone the struggle while listening to two Someones like a deaf, dumb and blind elf;) Adding custom names to the buddylist was apparently easy - why not for ingame tags?
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Dajoji, your first statement is partly true. The roleplayers will always roleplay when they like, but it is about getting the new players to roleplay as well. And that is mostly the task of the game.
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Roleplaying will come back.
As for the introduction system, let me say I've long been a proponent of it and really hoped it'd work ... but now I have to admit that even I think it's only annoying people at the moment. You can easily circumvent it and all it does is confuse the living daylight out of you whenever you're talking in an area with more than one 'stranger'. I also think it's one of the major reasons roleplaying is so rare these days. You simply can't have a decent conversation without OOC infererences to clear up confusion.
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You can give people all the tools in the world to RP, but if they don't want to RP they won't. I personally don't feel that it is time well spent trying to create game mechanics that FORCE people to RP. If there are enough players out there doing RP, then new players will catch on and fall-in-line so to speak. I do my best to be courteous and not use the "main" tab for OOC chat or help requests.
I personally find that i can progress, by myself, and it is boring and tedious. I have gotten involved with a guild and had several conversation, in-character, with other players and it has made the game much more enjoyable. This didn't require any special DEV time or any game mechanics to force me to RP.
I read something above about reading character descriptions. This is HIGHLY unrealistic. Imagine everyone walking into the grocery store handing the guy at the front a piece of paper with their life story on it. Can you imagine the lines backing up just to get in the store? Even if i did read the entire background of a person, I STILL CANNOT TELL WHO IS TALKING TO ME as it only says "Someone says:" When introductions were first introduced (no pun intended) it worked well enough and people went around introducing themselves to everyone. Now i don't seem to be able to introduce myself to anyone or vice versa.
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Mythryndel, it is not about forcing anyone to roleplay. My ideas for example are meant to give people impulses that makes them want to roleplay, so roleplay will be enjoyable for everyone.
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Basically Donari's idea appears to me to be some kind of analogon to "maxing a char level-wise", with exception for "levelling rp-wisely" would bring much more changes to an originally poor miner who became the boss of a trading company, compared to a club-wielder who became a hero - both considering the influence on the game you will/could have.
You wouldnt be forced to roleplay, like you arent forced to PL at the moment - instead it would offer a chance to reach certain "real" goals with your roleplay.
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As long as the opportunity exists to play the game without forced RP interaction, then i think the game will survive long-term. There are times when I just want to get to a certain level and kill things. There are other times when i really enjoy the player interactions and could just sit and "chat" all night. If there were bonuses offered for RP, I could be very agreeable to that.
RP by its very nature requires other players to be willing/able/online to interact with. This is sometimes problematic especially with the server downtime experienced recently and the 255 player max (read about it in the bug tracker).
Right now, the game mechanics favor non-RP activities in order to advance your character. No matter how you try to RP with an Ulbernaut... (s)he is going to kill you just as dead unless you build your character up.
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/me chuckles and pats Donari on the head.
Always good to have a fall guy. ;)
Ok folks, as I have said before, once the intro system is bug free and includes "This is <name of person you know>" it will be the perfect introduction system. What you are asking for is an -Recognition- system, which is completely different than an intro system. A good recognition system will compliment the intro system perfectly. Just have to wait for someone to code it. :)
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I think that there is an assumption in players (not necessarily DEVs) minds that remembering an introduction and having their name show up as their name instead of "Someone" in the logs forever after that is the same thing. If this really is two separate things in PS, perhaps we need to K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid).
I understand the difference between introduction and recognition, but having to re-introduce multiple times is like assuming everyone has Alzheimer's.
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Perhaps to have had a "recognition"-system before that introduction one wouldnt have been a bad idea then..
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That is a bug, Mythryndel.
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I know... I was attempting to be humorous... sorry that i failed in my attempt.
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PS claims to be RP game...
I think some RP encouragement should be more of the concern. Way more. Rigth now it feels like its getting different way.
For example making quests aviable even for groups, so players will have to interact between eachother (right now impossible and questing is singleplayer stuff)
Or less importance of trias (less bot-like silent players in mines)
But as game develops, there is more and more stuff which you can learn and train, that RP will be slowly killed in time, unless there will be any good idea from devs how to prevent it. Honestly, no idea on my mind. But its moving in way as any other MMO game. WoW, Lineage, Silkroad.
Leveling, as it becoming aviable, is taking over RP. And with systems as introductions.. its getting even faster. Before, when someone 'abused' your name, you accused him from spying, or anything like that that he knows name without you telling him. Nice, random RP, which teached newbies how to use IC. Now its just button and poof, everyone is considered introduced (typing sentences will become void, cause system message do it for you).
And thats just an example. Emotions are similar. Everyone just types "/happy" and instead of emoting by himself, each in orginal way. Soon, all will just cast one system message and end.
Thats kinda my point. PS should try to go in different way then other RPGs... otherwise, it turns in powerleveling ooc game as any other MMO. And I, as well as many from this comunity wouldnt like this, I'm sure.
Thanks for reading.
..and feel free to discuss, if you feel I'm wrong in my point. Maybe I am, who knows.
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I agree with the emotes thing as well, I find them to be quite unpersonal and dull.
Never use one other than greeting or waving.. even though some are funny I admit!
But still having every character behave and gesture in a unique way does help the RP much.
Not to mention.. I appreciate the work the devs put into the emotes system, I just think it should be used in emergency cases.. when you are really that busy that can't afford typing a whole sentence, which shouldn't happen often anyway.
EDIT: grammar
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All the emotes are going to have animations attached to them in the future. Though if having the text appear as well is bothersome, I'm sure we can make it an optional thing.
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I had an idea recently, and perhaps it could do for some motivation for roleplaying. I am pondering about having Hersh selling nice stuff, crafted weapons around 300 and similar, for unusually low prices.
Requirement for having a deal with Hersh would be a validly roleplayed char while fitting personal features of the same. What Hersh is about, and by that the features, everyone would be noticing soon enough when approaching.
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All the emotes are going to have animations attached to them in the future. Though if having the text appear as well is bothersome, I'm sure we can make it an optional thing.
I think it is quite important after which phrase did a character smile or sadden. If the emotes won't be displayed, most of the time you won't be exactly sure, especially that you often read messages with delays unlike to how people normally speak.
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First of all I want to say that I enjoy roleplaying a lot (and I hope others enjoy playing with me too) , but also like to do quests or some leveling :'(. Okay, not really leveling, more exploring what is possible with the game mechanics when you reach a specific level in a skill. But roleplaying is very important for me, without it I think the game would get very boring for me soon. There are only rare occasions in quests that make me gasping for air because I sit laughing before my screen ;). But I also have the feeling RP decreased lately (since about 0.4 was realised). Short after the new release I though it is because of the introduction system, which was too buggy to use it. I had to introduce to characters often again and sometimes even when I introduced the other players was still unknown for me. But that system had become much more stable lately. Now, if the issue with all those "Someones" in the chat window will be solved, I think the system will become useable ;). Surely the new quests distract some other players, but a quest never kept me off from a RP. And for the platinum mine....I don't think there are much more players at the platinum mine now, then at the two gold mines before. But I don't think it's a good place to start a RP, even some smalltalk when buying/selling ores seems to be too much for a lot of miners (with some nice and interresting exceptions of course ;)). Maybe I'm just look at the wrong places for some RP, or it's the time of year that keeps people off from playing PS...(I heard spring is a good time to go outside....but I don't know that from my own experiences ;)). But I guess every point mentioned in this thread has some slight impact on the situation and all together give me the feeling RP decreased a lot lately. I hope most of those issues will improve again as time goes by (or if some "features" are fixed or balanced).
Ah, and a last thought about emotions. I think some emotions are too specific to be used. For example the "/drink" emotion. I bet it will be nice with a animation, but I don't think I want to raise my mug everytime when I use it. Maybe I just want to sit silent in a corner of Kada El's and drink my beer.
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Rule #1 When a behavior is rewarded it tends to repeat.
Rule #2 When a behavior is punished it tends to change.
Currently in PS there are automatic rewards for grinding, mining, funace-jockeying, etc... but not for standing around and chit-chatting with others.
So if your serious about being rewarded, you are going to value grinding, mining, fighting... over chit-chatting and you will tend to choose
to gravitate towards these actions - even though they get boring. Why ? because of the reward.
How many people will sacrafice their game time HAMMERING ROCKS ALL DAY just to get trias ? (enough said)
You want more people to RP ? provide rewards.
You want people to stop grinding and mining? provide punishment - blisters that last all day, permanent injuries, emphesema for the funace jockeys :)
Of course, the problem with punishment is that you do not know *HOW* the behavior will change - ie the user may just move to another game.
I have tried RPing but found it no different that rping on a yahoo chat chanel. Sitting in a tavern with others looking ( >> ^^ << ) at each other, nodding, pretending to
sit with talk with others about nothing is more boring than mining. (Perhaps I'm square or something). Pretending to be European by using words the Thou and Hither just feels silly ( none of me european friends talk this way either )
If you want RP to spread, then
* lead by example - rp , and iinviide others in ( you see some standing and watching ? include them )
* Provide *material* rewards ( like items, tria, etc ) to those who RP, and entice others to RP.
Well, thats my two trias...
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About rewards - Players often offer rewards for their Roleplays. How would you get other players chasing a thief if you don't offer a reward for it ;). And I heard there are rewards for GM-events too (I didn't participate in a lot of GM-events yet). But this leads to another problem. Everyone wants to take part in a GM-event because he thinks he will get a great reward for it. Evil characters help a maiden in need, just because they are looking forward for the reward. I don't think this leads to good RP (but of course just my humble opinion). But if you think about increasing your skill during a roleplay as a reward, I maybe have to agree with you Rigwyn. But I really have no idea how this should work. How should a computer judge what is a good and what is a bad roleplay. For example having a Roleplay skill (but I don't have even the slightest idea what this should represent), how should you be able to advance in this skill. I don't think any solution a computer could provide would be good for this. And having GMs look at the roleplays of players would just lead to other problems. GMs can't be there all of the time and watch the roleplays of all players. And this would surely lead to complaints of players that GMs favorite other players. And there are times when not a single GM is only, so would RP in those time be meaningless?. Or you could introduce a Communication skill maybe, that increases when you talk with other players. But this wouldn't help RP at all, because PLs would just talk to each other without any Roleplay to increase that skill. But this is just my opinion, maybe someone has a great idea how rewards for roleplaying would work...
For me, it's hard to understand what other players gain by just increasing their stats and skills or earning a lot o tria. For me, the real fun of the game is the interaction with others players and as a result the unexpected situations your character gets into. I never found myself laughing when I gained a skill level. Surly it can be satisfying to know you character is now able to melt platinum or cast that specific spell, but finding myself in a compromising situation and no idea how to get out of it again is much more fun for me ;). And please don't get me wrong, I like the idea with rewarding RP, but I just have no idea how it could be done without introducing a lot of other problems. And I don't have any problems with Powerlevelers at all (Someone might call Aiwendil a PL too, since I invested a lot of time in her skills when I started with her). I think everyone should play this game as he wants and what gives him the most fun. It's just that I think I could have more fun if more players would do some RP ;)
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I basically agree with what you said, Rigwyn. Actually thats one of the main reasons for that idea. A problem arising though is, that if you hand out rewards, you need to refill your own pouch. So you will have your rewarding rps a few times, then your bag is empty and you will need to grind or whatever yourself, for gathering rewards again.
To Aiwendil, sure, GM-rewarded events are rare, and officials to judge players rp would probably soon lead to favorism even if tried to be avoided. But why not making use of favorism yourself, you in terms of all you players? And you bet I am not talking about "player favors players" but "char favors chars".
If there are for example mage guilds: Why arent there 2-3 merchants selling to known mage scholars only? Special traders that is, with special clientele and/or special prices. If those traders are equipped nicely, a newbie-mage-oocer perhaps would try to get into roleplaying for only he, no idea, finally can buy his Wall glyph from one of them.
Or be a miner to sell cheaper to your favorite crafters..
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I like the idea of merchants selling good only to known characters. To stay in your example, if you are a mage who wants to buy a glyph, you first need to find a player who knows the merchant and can introduce you to him/her. I think this is a good way to introduce players to RP. And of course favorism between players is a good way to show new players the benefits of some roleplaying too ;). When a character of mine spent some time with another character in the tarvern, or both experienced and adventure together, my char will surly pay better / sell at a lower price to the other one. But I have to add some experience I made in the game lately. When I tried to buy some platinum ore lately, had some chat with the players and tried to haggle with him (I really had no intention to pay less then the usual price, I just wanted to do some conversation), two or three other players said OOC (in brackets) that I should pay the usual price or be gone. I wouldn't have a problem, if they did it IC (like at another occasion a fenki did, telling her friend not to ruin the market by selling at a lower price to me), bet those OOC reactions showed me, my roleplaying wasn't welcomed there, and my job as a melter is only to pay for their training or guild house and quietly fill their purses. So I think the only way for me to support (new) friends my character made in game by selling them more then the usual price. I don't think any new player will sell me ores for less just because we know each other if there are a lot of other players paying more. But again, I think "rewarding" other players who you know better is a good idea to get some new players to roleplay
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On one hand you pointed out a good point:
(..)and my job as a melter is only to pay for their training or guild house and quietly fill their purses.
Behaviour like I suggested above would prolly not be the one that leads most efficiently to a wealthy life lol. But it is either playing a merchant consequently, and contributing to the roleplaying atmosphere. Such a way of acting perhaps would only be assumed by players who already have gathered some goods/cash. I personally wouldnt mind at all if newbies arent doing that, after all though it could give them an example. What you point out is, that there are two ways of trading: The PLing one and the RPing one. Both may use the Auction channel, but only the RPing ones contribute to the atmosphere (and I am not talking about OOCers).
On the other hand I again want to say that it has nothing to do about knowing players (Aiw, you probably just used an unfitting word):
you first need to find a player who knows the merchant and can introduce you to him/her
If my personal best ooc friend ingame wouldnt have a fitting char i wouldnt sell to him, period. In the given example, have that friend play a thug, he of course wouldnt even be able to talk more than 2 sentences to my mage trader. In fact the player behind the chars in question dont matter at all - its all only about the chars, their traits and feats.
If players ask for, or say they love it when chars have special features, then make use of it, reward the efforts put into evolving a unique char by including that char into nice limited treatments, right by considering these special features.
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If my personal best ooc friend ingame wouldnt have a fitting char i wouldnt sell to him, period. In the given example, have that friend play a thug, he of course wouldnt even be able to talk more than 2 sentences to my mage trader.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't very clear about it. I completely agree with you there. Some of my characters surly wouldn't become good friends with characters another of my chars knows quit well ;). I was not talking about players, I talked about characters.
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FYI... i just had a thought. If you really want to encourage people to be fully immersed in a RP environment, the place to start is the NPC dialog. While i agree that the scripts coming from the NPCs are in character, the player responses to them certainly aren't. I know that this is an evolving process, but this is where most players first real interaction with the game comes from(tutorial level). When you have to condition yourself to always ask "about X" or "give me Y", this is not setting a stage for a good RP environment between your character other players.
Also, it is only really beneficial to RP good characters. Everything I have read from the tutorial or the forums is about making it enjoyable for everyone. If you have truly evil characters, this is not going to happen. Someone is going to get upset.
Also, (in know... i'm on a roll now... watch out), if you have the option of declining a PvP contest, there is no real consequence to running your mouth in-game. I can RP whatever I want against a snotty little drunk guy in the tavern, but if he doesn't feel like joining in, there is no consequences for him telling the entire room that i should just go take acting lessons or jump in a lake.
ok... i'm done for now... i think.
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Also, it is only really beneficial to RP good characters. Everything I have read from the tutorial or the forums is about making it enjoyable for everyone. If you have truly evil characters, this is not going to happen. Someone is going to get upset.
No, if before starting an RP you ponder about somebody could get pissed off by it.. better don't start it.
I have dealt with many evil chars, played some.. and I hardly remember a time where people was upset with any roleplay.
Only the ones taking it personal instead of IC are given to get upset, but you shouldn't involve such players in that sort of RP anyway.
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If you have to pre-coordinate any "evil" action, what is the point? The whole idea of RP is to get real people to respond to an encounter... otherwise you might as well just be typing the dialog from shakespeare or something. RP is not always PC (politically correct). RP is not always to the benefit of ALL players present.
I sometimes get the impression that many people see a utopia as the ideal RP landscape. I am not saying that we need a mob or drug runners or something to achieve a real RP environment, but everyone seems to act like RP can only happen in small groups and everyone has to agree to participate. This should not be a prerequisite.
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Well, PS is a game and not a torture chamber.
IF players aren't going to enjoy there is not much of a point to start anything.
I have this feeling that you mix player with character..
An RP that is going to harm, upset, or even kill your character doesn't necessarily need to piss you off.
Roleplay can happen everywhere and with as many players as you wish.
Again, I don't see why does that need to upset any of them.
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Your character can't simply sit around all day and do nothing but RP
(from here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32154.msg369398#msg369398))
RP is not always PC (politically correct)
I am about confused and wonder about your definiton of roleplaying. I currently play a char who is prolly not necessarily PC. He insults openly etc, and becomes offending within range - as long as no one will report me or feel in fact offended I think its all fine. But if anyone would let me know, or I would notice, s/he isnt comfortable with Hershs style I would of course leave him alone. This is a game and meant to be fun.
And RP=sitting around.. sorry, I am not roleplaying a statue, you may want to reconsider your char.
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Everyone seems to have a different definition of RP... however... the most common one i read about on the forums is a bunch of people sitting around the tavern or something. I've heard of GM events and how you should use the /roll to determine the outcome of whatever action instead of using absolutes. The problem comes in when you are trying to do something that other characters don't agree with. If i wanted to charge a toll for crossing the land bridge in oja to the crater opening, there is nothing i can do to force the character to RP. I cannot challenge him/her "physically" without permission, I cannot intimidate them into paying me 20 trias for passage, I cannot even get his/her character to stop and listen to me.
Am i saying that Uber characters should just sit around and pick on newbies? No. I am saying that if someone wants to play this kind of thug character, it should be allowed, but also that the newbie should be able to raise the alarm and have a group of people send the guy to the DR for picking on people. This creates a real RP environment where there are consequences for actions.
I personally don't care about mildly abusive or off-color comments made in-character. I think that is fine, but others are going to get upset by it. Does that mean that this type of language should be banned from PS? I don't think so.
I really think that if we could get a real economy going with a merchant or occupations, it would leave a lot more time for real RP. I have spent more than half an hour just trying to make it someplace to trade with someone for a weapon. While this may be realistic from a certain point of view, it was 30 minutes that i wasn't interacting with another living soul in-game. If i could focus more on my characters development instead of having to hunt down the people I need to aquire items from, it would help.