PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rigwyn on April 08, 2008, 01:44:20 pm
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Given the choice between leveling up, mining, questing and rp-ing, rp-ing yields the least material reward (this is my experience at least). As a result you have to expect it to be the least popular choice. Afaik the rewards associated with rp-ing are immaterial for the most part ( as I understand there are sometimes material rewards ).
What about getting paid in trias by the minute - or hour for spending time in a "rp zone" ?
This is what I am thinking:
1. Define a zone where only rp-ing may occurr ( no mining, crafting or fighting allowed ). This could be a tavern, a map, or a group that you would be invited into.
2. When you enter that rp group or area a meter runs provided you talk occasionally)
3. While in this rp zone there is nothing else to do, so you will be motivated to make the best of it and rp since that would be the most fun thing that you could do - since other activites are not possible within this zone.
This idea is meant as a starting point, in order to fly you would need to build on it - you may want to allow fighting within the rp for example.
Given the choice between earning x trias per hour mining, or a little less trias per hour rp-ing, I think I would choose rp-ing
Also you would want players to be able to enter one of these zones at any time, or create such a zone (or rp group )
(I'll stop talking soon )
It would we nice if it was possible to set up an rp event and bring in a live npc for that event - ie. An aggressive band of rogues, or a huge beast of some sort ( a ps equivalent of a dragon perhaps ?
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IMO, No.
Whole planeshift is a RP zone, you RP everywhere. You cant create RP zone inside something what is it already.
How will you explain the gained money from RP PoV ? You can't. This money is gained through ooc means.
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/agree
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I agree with your basic idea, roleplay should yield enough 'profit' to play the game decently. The way you're trying to accomplish it is full of holes though.
Firstly I agree with Niko, the entire world is for roleplay .. not only a small area.
Roleplay is also not just chatting, if you want to chat .. enter a chatroom or use instant messenger programs. Roleplay is playing a role. How are you going to play a role in an area where you aren't allowed to do anything but talk?
Lets re-evaluate your problem. Roleplay doesn't yield nearly as much tria or pp than grinding and grinding is boring with little to no roleplay involved. Is this a problem? Not by itself but since we need a lot of PP to train and the economy is ruled by grinders/levelers, this becomes a problem. Roleplayers are either forced to be unskilled paupers or spend time grinding and not roleplaying.
To be honest the only solution I see is to make sure there is no reason to grind. Make sure that everyone gets plenty of PP and tria to get by decently. Unfortunately that means moving in the opposite direction. Right now the Devs are making efforts to give the economy to the players, which automatically means the levelers are more important than the roleplayers. Cancelling this would mean turning the economy back over to the NPCs.
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The problem faced here is a common one. You want to create an immersive world, but you want real living and breathing people involved. That is problem number 1. Where people get involved, there are going to be things not going according to plan. What some other games do to deal with this is to create a server for the main game with it's huge numbers of players, and a separate server for the hard-core RPers (DAOC does this). It is very difficult for a game to enforce strict RP where there are so many complicated options to choose from. People are going to have to ask questions and learn how to train skills and such that cannot be realistically RPed in-character. Click this, open your inventory, drag to this window... etc.
There could be all kinds of game mechanics to make this happen with varying degrees of player and DEV frustration. However, i think the ideal solution would be:
1. Create two servers
2. ALL players would have an account on the main server.
- This is where all newbies and PLers and whatever hang out.
- This is where game mechanics would be worked out and people would experiment with new skills/trades.
3. ONLY players who are offered an invitation could play on the second server.
- An active account on the main server would be required.
- Agreement to abide by strict RP rules (with the understanding they can be kicked out for non-compliance)
- GM or designated players would be allowed to offer invites to those on the main server.
I think this has the ability to minimize DEV time with in-game restrictions on non-RP, while providing all the benefits of RP to those that desire a truly immersive RP experience.
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1. Create two servers
2. ALL players would have an account on the main server.
- This is where all newbies and PLers and whatever hang out.
- This is where game mechanics would be worked out and people would experiment with new skills/trades.
3. ONLY players who are offered an invitation could play on the second server.
- An active account on the main server would be required.
- Agreement to abide by strict RP rules (with the understanding they can be kicked out for non-compliance)
- GM or designated players would be allowed to offer invites to those on the main server.
Planeshift is meant to be one world for all, so if someday there is more then one server all will be in the same world and able to see and talk to each other. If we had 2 separate servers and only some people could invite others to the other server, there would be a major bias as not all people are on at the same time and not all have the same definition of what RP is. This would actually require more work as people would have to watch both servers and fix bugs on both and keep an eye on the players on both servers. Double the work atleast.
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This is not an ideal solution while in alpha, maybe not even beta. However, this is the only way I see to accomplish what everyone wants. The two servers would be identical for game mechanics and possibly even quests and world layout.
The problem is that, as you said, "people" have different definitions of RP. Well... that is why a handful of people would get to invite. So that only the "choosen" RPers would get to play on the other server. This would have the end result of encouraging people to RP on the main server so that they can get an invite to the exclusive server.
The whole argument here is what benefit do people get for RPing vs PLing or whatever. Since membership is free, the only thing there really is to offer long-term is exclusivity. If this upsets people, they will either change their behavior to get an invite, or they will leave. Simple as that. I personally don't think it will have that large an effect on the vast majority of players because they will have the opportunity to RP when they want, but still be able to try different things that would completely break a true RP landscape.
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Mythryndel, No, coz you can't enjoy game mehanics on the RP server. To do so, you need 2 separate characters, while you want one. You haven't seen enough.
There is no economy in PS right now, give it time. If you can sell loads of the same goods to the NPCs and they continue buying it for the same price, there is no economy. If you go killing gladiators to sell their swords to NPCs - it is not economy.
There wll be economy if people get resources to use them, not sell to NPCs. and there will be room for RPing in consistent place
There will be economy when NPC buyers won't look like they should go bancrupt long time ago and the trainers be insanetly rich demi-gods sitting on their treasure.
Then people will stop by, because the more they produce, the more they satisfy the needs for these products till a moment it doesnt make sense for a while, so they can give time to RP.
Though if the devs rise the satisfying level higher as money-makers want, just like with giving more mobs coz players want then out o a whim, then there will be no time for RP. That may be the toughtest of all to work out.
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While I can't say i'm completely opposed to this suggestion (invite only =D), I can say that I doubt it is going to happen. In general elitism is frowned upon here.
As to the original poster, RP should be and is its own reward. It's like reading a good novel, accept that you get to control a character. I think that most who try RP will find it addictive rather quickly. Those who don't try usually come and go, doing little damage in their time here.
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hmmm the problem with the two server system is this.
How do you start roleplaying if all the decent roleplayers have already left for the other server?
Ofcourse not all will be gone but two servers means two cultures ingame. And so that means that the server you start on has hardly any RP going on. And we all know what happens if noone arounds you RPs. Very little chance a new person starts roleplaying/
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Two separate servers is not a good way to go. Getting 'paid' in an out of character manner is also not the way to go.
However, spending time in certain areas as a hired worker, and getting paid for that is not a bad idea. Or even getting paid (a limited amount) while you are offline and your character is 'at his job' is another good idea. Just pick up your pay once in a while.
In real life, there is room for all types of people in the world doing and enjoying all types of things. We just need to bring that concept into PlaneShift. :)
For the invite only thing... well, elitism has its place in life as well. It should have a place ingame as well besides the natural elitism that comes from leveling and combat. If there is something to strive for that actually requires roleplaying (like getting into a guild, only actually meaning something to the game), then more people will do it. That is why I like the intro system. Folks have to put a bit of RP effort into learning my character's name, as I will give it out no other way.
And get rid of PP. RP public enemy #1. ;)
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This forum, or so i thought, was for brainstorming. I am not saying what HAS to happen or i'm leaving or anything like that. I just know that this would be a way to encourage people to do as you wish.
In order for there to be a authentic RP environment, there has to real dialog, but also real occupations. Your character can't simply sit around all day and do nothing but RP. Your character needs to bring something to the world. This could be nothing but providing raw materials for crafters, it could be crafting items for sale, it could be ridding the land of creatures that threaten the citizens of the city you are from. I think that introducing occupations could help in this regard. I have been thinking about it and if you meet X requirements, you should be able to apply for a paid position in-game. For instance, if you get a 10 weapon skill, you can apply for a position as a sentry or a rat exterminator or something.
There also should be a NPC character that can act as a merchant for when the character that has X resource is not online for someone who needs to craft Y. Everyone agrees that it is difficult for everyone to be on at the same time or for extended periods of time, but until we get something like this, there will not be a realistic economy and everyone will have to be a generic character. By example, I cannot ONLY be a weapon crafter, because i will have to continually go out mining to have enough raw materials to work with.
EDIT: The Auction tab is a good start to a merchant. The seller should be able to put a item for sale in the possession of the merchant with a price tag. IF a player purchases that item, then the money can be retrieved by the seller when they are next online.
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If there were to be two seperate servers, I would only use them for testing purposes to see what people liked better, then combine the things that work well back into server A and start another second experimental server B. Keep doing this to find out if this or that works better. But that would be double the work for the Devs at this point, so it would be difficult to do. Not to mention finding a second server.
It could be done on a single server with two seperate worlds and rulesets, thus allowing folks the move their characters back and forth to test both with a single character. But again, this is a lot of extra work.
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I have a dual proc 800MHz system that I am installing CentOS5.1 on in the very near future. If you want a test server that will have limited users for playing with new features, I would be willing to talk to you offline about setting it up. I have a static IP and a OK upload speed.
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We've had many conversations and discussions and debates and arguments internally about separating into two servers - one for RP, and the other for casual-anything-you-want-but-usually-OOC-business needs. I think the overwhelming response was "No." Most of us do not want to separate the community, especially when, as stated, PlaneShift as a whole is meant to be an RP game. So I'd rather you guys spend your time brainstorming in another direction.
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That is fine. I can, and am, doing this right now. I have offered several other suggestions on how to get more RP back into the game. I am also ok with having a test server to help iron out the wrinkles in things like the introduction system before it goes to the players on the production server. I am offering to assist in any way i can in a non-programmer capacity (bound by no-compete with my employer). I am a qualified systems administrator (Linux and Unix) and I really enjoy this game and want to see it succeed long-term.
If i am causing too much ruckus... let me know and I'll go crawl back under a rock... and wait to pounce someones ankles as they pass by. :)
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To the original post, we already have this. They are called events. :)
At least that was their intended purpose, more or less. I have heard they exist yet I seem to have only gotten in on 2 since CB was introduced. :whistling:
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Frankly I love to see such enthusiasm from a new player. I hope you do not get discouraged because people do not want two servers. Personally I look forward to hearing more of your ideas Mythryndel. Welcome and enjoy the game.
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I'm not going anywhere... I deal with much worse abuse on a daily basis... I have some pretty tough customers to deal with. It is also a challenge for some to distinguish between constructive criticism and bashing when it is a pet project or something they have been attached to for a long time. I'm guilty of not being able to see this myself in some of my projects.
Hopefully people will take what i say and either discard it completely, or think about it and get a dialog started about what really needs to happen with the game. I don't pick a contrary position just to be contrary... well... not too often.
I haven't heard any real feedback yet on:
1. Occupations
2. Merchant
I'd really like to hear some opinion on those. It would free up a lot of time for RP without some of the current grind.
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Some thoughts on the occupations and merchant:
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Occupations:
- required to have a certain lvl in appropriate skills.
- required to perform some activity
- paid a daily or weekly salary for each time period those duties are performed.
Examples:
Miners Apprentice (requirement mining lvl 5)
- Weekly requirement: Mine 5 Gold, 5 Silver, 8 Iron, 2 Coal
- Weekly salary: 3000 trias
Miner (requirement mining lvl 10)
- Weekly requirement: Mine 10 Gold, 10 Silver, 16 Iron, 4 Coal)
- Weekly Salary: 9000 trias
Miner Senior (requirement mining lvl 20)
- Weekly requirement: Mine 20 Gold, 20 Silver, 32 Iron, 8 Coal)
- Weekly Salary: 27000 trias
EDIT: All items acquired in this way would be placed on a merchant for sale at average price compared to those listed. If Gold ore is offered at 400, 425, and 450.. the Gold sold from this occupation would be sold for the average of 425. This way it is set dynamically and does not influence the overall economy.
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Merchants:
- Minimum of 1 in every major city
- Each merchant (in-game) would have established trade routes with the other merchants (or this could be another occupation, runner, required 80 Str, 80 Endurance)
- An item would be listed for sale and transfered to a merchant from the sellers inventory.
- Any player could approach a merchant and search for items for sale.
- Buyer would then purchase the item for the price listed and receive the item.
- Seller would be able to collect their money from any merchant after the item is sold.
The BIG advantage to this is that it saves time doing three things:
1. Getting sellers and buyers together
2. Reducing the amount of time travelling to acquire items
3. Allowing an economy to grow even when specific players are not online.
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I can see some benefits about it, and some interestings approaches.
But important to me is: Whats making it different to any other grinding, ie wheres roleplaying required or at least emphasized?
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That is just the thing. It levels the playing field. Right now it is not cost effective or PP effective to ONLY mine. Likewise, I cannot currently ONLY craft, etc. With the combination of these two things you can actually RP being only a miner or ONLY a crafter. You could also then ONLY be a fighter.
I find that right now, unless i have another character that can do specific things really well, i end up having to play a generic character with a specific personality. The example i used would give enough trias to make a only miner viable and free up time in-game to RP. Not everyone would WANT to be a miner, but mining is required to support crafters. Crafting is not required, but crafters are almost required to support fighters... etc.
My purpose in proposing this is to support a real economy, a REAL ability to not have to RP a fighter/misc profession, and being able to focus more on player interaction than grinding. As with any job, there would be requirements to "grind" through...
more feedback?
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About your miner: PS miners are different than any realistic model would be. Typically miners would be poor workers digging wealth for someone else's benefit and not the fabulously wealthy drones we know in the game. They would work from dusk to dark for a pittance and likely spend that on staying alive with whatever is left guzzled down their throats. And that is if they were not outright slave labor. Crafters would be slightly higher on the totem pole but still would likely starve unless they were good. Also they would do all their work for a master until they learned enough to go on their own and he might well throw them out or refuse to teach them much.
Good thing the game is not too realistic, eh?
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Mythryndel, your suggestions are nice, but senseless. Once everything is fully implemented, these things will balance themselves.
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While I can't say i'm completely opposed to this suggestion (invite only =D), I can say that I doubt it is going to happen. In general elitism is frowned upon here.
*Cough* *cough* ...oh, you said in general... :whistling:
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Hmm... get payed to RP...
I want to ask you, why do you play a game? Any game.
For the loot? For the currency (trias in this case).
In my oppinion you play it because you (the person behind the character) enjoy it.
Of course, you feel some inner joy when you happen to find an incredibly rare item, or when you make a certain ammount of ingame currency but those are some of the reasons behind the game being exciting for you. And if you think about it... here's the bad news... the loot is only pixels. So, I guess it is not the loot that makes a game worth playing, it is the feeling you get while playing it.
Ok, so my point is: You play the game for a moral reward that is in some cases related but not strictly to pixels.
On the other hand, you get the same reward when you RP. You meet people, you have fun with them, you have fun being inside the skin of a character that you try to role play the best you can, in short, you are enjoying the game.
So, why would you need pixels to feel enjoy something that is enjoyable anyway?
If somebody doesn't enjoy RP, you can give them all the trias in the world and they will still not RP. Or they will do that for the trias and they will suck at it.
So, IMO, we should leave RP to those that like and want to RP and not force it by making people do it, or by giving them rewards. RP is a reward by it's self.
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The miner is just one example, but right now if i spend all of my time mining, i cannot progress. I do not make enough PPs even if I make all the trias in the world. The way the game mechanics work right now it forces you to be a fighter in addition to whatever other profession you might want to be, unless you really don't mind gaining even 1 level of mining every couple of days, even starting at lvl 1. The occupation idea would need to balance this out as well. I could see an occupation of armor smith, weapon smith, cartographer, etc. In the spirit of being compensated for RP, this would help give more realism to the game and encourage people to help the "global" in-game economy, not just their own endeavors.
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The miner is just one example, but right now if i spend all of my time mining, i cannot progress. I do not make enough PPs even if I make all the trias in the world. The way the game mechanics work right now it forces you to be a fighter in addition to whatever other profession you might want to be, unless you really don't mind gaining even 1 level of mining every couple of days, even starting at lvl 1. The occupation idea would need to balance this out as well. I could see an occupation of armor smith, weapon smith, cartographer, etc. In the spirit of being compensated for RP, this would help give more realism to the game and encourage people to help the "global" in-game economy, not just their own endeavors.
no those are all balancing issues the devs are aware of, and in time they will be fixed/worked on, but not just yet do the devs have time to work on redoing the lvling system to make it better.
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Are we beating a dead pterosaur here then?
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You're beating the bonedust that once was a dead pterosaur, years ago. :P
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He must be some sort of alchemist then.....
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Paid RP - opposed. For reasons already stated.
Separate "RP" servers: - opposed. Reasons already stated.
Occupations - I like this for certain things, guards being a good example. Right now, despite Yliakum laws regarding various topic that have already been beaten to death here, there is little or no visible guard presence, since the NPC guards never stary from their posts. Have a 'guard barracks' where characters can enlist, train, patrol the streets and even make a few tria would provide both a more realistic setting as well as great RP possibilities. It could be implemented much like a guild, except that it would not exclude being in another guild (or maybe it should... possibilities either way). Guards would have shifts (have to work with how that works, given the passage of time ingame), and they would get off shift and be free to do whatever just like RL. That way they can still play all aspects of the game (questing, crafting etc) while maintaining a consistent IC 'lifestyle'. And it would actually make some of the NPC seem more realistic by virtue of them now being part of a larger community of real characters.
Merchants - would be nice, but harder to implement as I see it because it would essentially be a consignment store, which would require some management. I'm also pretty sure the GMs wouldn't want to have to deal with the upset customer who was in the middle of a transaction when the server crashed and he ended up losing his Q300 sabre with no recompense. Simpler would be a market square where vendors can just set-up an sell on a temp basis.
Something I would like to see, that I think would improve RP, is in-game notice boards. Rather than putting RP threads on these forums, they could actually be put up in game. Many players do not frequent the forums, but if those same threads were in-game, many more would read and respond. This also gives devs a place to notice in game events, crafters could advertise, civic announcements disseminated, etc. Most medieval towns had something similar, which really emphasizes the importance considering the high illiteracy of the times. Each town could have one (or more than one, larger towns could have several).
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Vendor area... simpler yes, but does not address the key problem I see the merchant fixing. Real People are not online at the same times all the time. In real life, I know when a store is going to be open and can go check it out. In game, there is no such thing. I may have 10 Q300 items that people are dying to buy, but they are on at a different time than I am. If there were a merchant, which you accurately describe my implementation suggestion as a consignment arrangement, then my items can be sold even when I an not in-game.
I don't see the issue of losing the Q300 item to the merchant being any different from losing it because the server crashed just as you finished making it and put it in your inventory. The server crashes are just that, crashes. I've lost several loot items due to servers crashing before, but life goes on.
The announcement board idea is, in my opinion, a good idea.The only thing i would add, is that it might need to be moderated or have a fee for posting. Otherwise i see it being filled with <insert character name here> WUZ H3R3!!!!!!!1!! or something equally ridiculous.
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Most people won't accept player guards. They just see big neon signs over their heads saying "Rebel against me and fight me!" :P For those that don't think that way *cough* Imperial Guard *cough*
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A prison map would solve that right quick.
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Most people won't accept player guards. They just see big neon signs over their heads saying "Rebel against me and fight me!" :P For those that don't think that way *cough* Imperial Guard *cough*
Probably quite true <sigh> but they don't accept NPC guards either, so nothing lost. The gain would be a more natural visual presence backing up settings, + a civic presence with player participation.
And I love the prison map idea. A logical follow up to say a courthouse?
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i was thinking before, that having player jobs, that might not involve you saving the world like im sure we all love to do, but bring you steady tria and give you an in game foundation for your characters character would be awesome. i would not mind sitting in kada-els for a while bringing drinks to people who give me some coin for it (hmm, i could do this anyway, doesnt really need mechanics...but there is broader ideas, such as guards, civil servants (not necassarily vigesimi or octarchs) estate agents, player trainers, its really an endless list)
im going to make an example, examples always help me think about things.
in our world, a guy goes to trade school, and studies to become an electrician, he then joins a company and works for them, then, after a few years, when he is a very good electrician and has built up some capital, he starts his own electricians business
the same could work for smiths, an npc 'boss' provides you with steel and a quota of swords he wants, you pump them out and get paid a fraction of their sale price. not as lucrative as mining the steel yourself and selling it yourself, but its steady income, and a great source of experience, before you get enough capital to buy your own steel and start selling it freelance.
i love the smithing mechanics in game, i think they are very well thought out, but i cant stand mining for iron and i cant afford to buy it, my swords are too crap to cover the price of the steel. if i could get up to making ql 200 swords or something with steel provided by an NPC, barely making any cash but learning, i would stick with smithing and eventually make ql 300 stuff.
ive forgotten my point as it is 1:40 am, but i hope you can understand.
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Oh, I really like your points, Hydrolyzer, even if you were to tired to remember them :P. A small portion of the sales for making swords for an NPC. Make it "quest item" steel so that people don't take advantage of being able to get steel for free. "Quest item" steel makes "quest item" weapons that cannot be equipped.
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^ thats brilliant!
everyone sign this now :D
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I don't agree much with this. I think the best way to promote RP is to improve the coherence of the settings, improve the mechanics to make the difference between different skill levels shorter (therefore taking some of the relevance of leveling), making a realistic fighting system (in a realistic fight, even a professional fighter has a chance of messing up against a newbie) adding death penalties (if we're keeping the silly PP points, upon death these should suffer a penalty as well as the tria value should be halved or something). This would add real risk, making fighting a serious problem and therefore RPing your way out of it (instead of into it) something more common.
This mixed in with a competent moderation focused on RP would certainly make PlaneShift even better than it is.
I guess this is utopic thinking for some reason. We can not attain a good RP environment without upsetting the Gods of liberty and therefore becoming elegible to the fallacious RP nazi concept.
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There is a very distinct divide between two groups present on the forums. This is merely MY opinion based on MY observation, but they are as follows:
1. Hard Core RPers who don't really care about the game mechanics because they shouldn't have to do anything but RP in-game.
2. PLers who really want the game mechanics to work to make the game more realistic.
I know this is just a generalization, as I don't fit into either of these groups. I fall somewhere in the middle. If this were nothing more than a fancy skin on an irc client, i probably wouldn't be here. It is the game mechanics that I enjoy, and it enhances that experience when there are people that will play their character.
The PLers, according to the RPers, don't want to interact with other players and are only here to achieve god-hood according to the mechanics of the game, and are thus ruining the environment. Part of this problem is that I haven't seen anyone agree on exactly what constitutes "real" RP. This could be anything from the RP threads on the forum, to chatting IC on IRC, sitting in the tavern and talking IC, etc.
I support a balance between the two extremes. I support the concept of occupations to help people really feel like they are something other than a fighter that moonlights as a miner or a fighter that moonlights as a crafter. Using the current game mechanics, it is hard to play (unless you resort to completely RP based on your word, not game mechanics) anything that isn't a multi-class fighter. Part of the hype/appeal of PS and is all over the forums and mentioned in the tutorial, is you can be anything in this new world. The balance of PPs and trias however, don't fully support this at present.
*Mythryndel dons his asbestos underwear and says "Let the flames begin..."*
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There is a very distinct divide between two groups present on the forums. This is merely MY opinion based on MY observation, but they are as follows:
1. Hard Core RPers who don't really care about the game mechanics because they shouldn't have to do anything but RP in-game.
2. PLers who really want the game mechanics to work to make the game more realistic.
No.
Edit:
lol, someone's so quick with deleting, there is that modufy vutton , you know.
Your dividation is incorrect.
Every person brings different opinion and probably makes another group. there is no such thing as "HC RPers against PL struggle - pick your side" in this game, people are smarter than that.
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Those knickers of yours are pure poison, best not to invite the fire. Your comments were not too provocative to begin with.
I look at it another way. The laws say you need a years training and with such a time commitment you can generate plenty of tria/pps to support your vocation as long as you specialize and do not try to become proficient with all weapon and styles. Everyone in the realm is essentially part of the militia, Where I live that is one night a week of training, drill, target practice or duty specific instruction and a few weeks in the summer full time with the regular force at one of their bases. If we were to take this as a voluntary model then there should be no problems getting enough pps to continue your vocation. Personally I have more than 10000 pps stored up that I cannot afford to train because my combat skills are middling high and money is an object. That should be enough pps to advance considerably in whatever non combat profession I wish excepting perhaps magic. Certainly with the combat skills I have now, as spread out as they are, I can generate pps whenever I want with little difficulty. If I had specialized in one weapon and armor type I would be that much better off. I could certainly maximize my primary statistics if I had the money but I prefer to spend it on other things.
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I'm sorry, It is just that everytime someone with low post count posts, its like deja vu
In fact, when Mythryndel write he enjoy the game mechanics, i find myself in the same group, a group of no PLers or HCRPers, but probably RPers who want to support it by game mechanics and enjoy.
It is a fact since the beginning that you can play any class, but in the end it is always multiclass fighter, what will hopefully change one year. It is hard to wait.
I have no idea what setting say on the subject of every Yliakean having a combat training, because asking NPCs is too cumbersome at this time, but if it is just your wish Prolix, don't try to use it as a fact.
I don't think anyone has anything new to say here, there is only waiting for in-game supporting what we seek. Sad that so much of it is taking so long.
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The Octarch's law is a book in the library actually. It's in there about the mandatory training. No NPC interaction needed. :)
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Part of this problem is that I haven't seen anyone agree on exactly what constitutes "real" RP.
This is what I think is right in Mythryndel's post. PS is something I haven't seen in most RP's I play (MMORPG and otherwise), because most RP games define a RP protocol whereas PS simply has none. In PS everything is within the rules as long as you don't upset people.
So what happens is that it allows different types of players in: those who care about roleplaying (aka Roleplayers. Note how their name goes well with the name of the game genre!), those who don't and then the amazing unique grey scales of people that care about RP in their own subjective way (but are not keen on following established rules because they probably haven't played too many RPs; are currently not willing to play one thoroughly; insert random uniqueness reason here).
This doesn't work well as all these have obvious divergences (system-wise for example). I say stick with one, drop the others. It's pretty easy to figure out which we should keep in a MMORPG (yes, the first).
I don't consider myself a Hard-Core Role Player. Not in the standard meaning and not in the exaggerated, derogatory meaning this expression has in PS. I simply follow a logic: PS is meant to be a roleplay game. Good RolePlay Games have rule sets that include system and moderating mechanics. Currently PS doesn't have rule sets that cover roleplaying within PS (often concern moderating mechanics). Therefore PS is incomplete.
Now people cry that no one is entitled to say what the best RP protocol is, so it's not fair to have one. We don't have the best fighting system, we don't have the best crafting system, we don't have the best training system... So, isn't that as fair?
Let's just get a good one, not the best (like what we have in the others). People will be able to complain about something then, rather than speaking about the chaos the absence of it creates and the subsequent divisions this causes within the community. If this means losing some "costumers", what the hell; it's a MMORPG, not something else so why should we care about the people that are here for some other reasons?
We're speaking about implementations that do not require the intervention of coders, just a good planning from the settings and GM teams: a RP protocol and the respective GM procedure towards it. Dungeon & Dragons and World of Warcraft (RP server) do it. They're successful and different from each other. They all include "RP" in their definitions. So... What the hell are we waiting? We don't need to pay for RP, we just need to add what we're obviously missing.
EDIT:
Changed examples of successful games that employ RP protocols.
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I think the discussion is not about a problem but a problem within another. IMO the issue is economics. Simply put, u need to get paid for everything or it's a sort of 'waste of time'.
Still, the issue must be focused as a single one. If the problem is tria, separate the stuff!. And this may be an old idea but why not?.. why can't be the training trade be based on just PP? (and perhaps get PP for RPing?).. and let tria aside for other things?... I mean, a master also wants his apprentice to grow, right?.. but the case is the master is just selling the service provided. No matter how skilled u are, u still have to pay!.
Isn't this the reason why you wish RP to be payed for?..: to get the trias for 'making a living' IG?.
I believe we have to analize these issues a bit farther before engaging into a the discussion.
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That's not it. I want it to be fun whether your character is rich or poor. I like roleplaying, so simply roleplaying is fun. People that play MMORPGs should have the same feeling over roleplaying. The better the roleplaying, the more I'm having fun.
Economics are really an important thing, but not as central as first guaranteeing quality in roleplay.
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I understand your point but.. The thread states 'get paid for RP' .. what is the idea?
1. To get paid for something that not everyone wants to do.. so by making it lucrative then more will be forced to do it? (IMO RP is not to be forced).
2. To get paid for something you want to do but the time it consumes doesn't allow you to do anything else in consonance with the underlying fact that you need tria? (IMO this leads to a possible solution as the one posted on this thread's heading).
If there is another one, it escapes my imagination atm.
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Wow I will admit I Just kinda read the original post and a few in between but I don't RP to get a reward or trophy I role play because its a ton of fun and I enjoy the experience and hanging out with great friends. Its the same thing when I enter a GM event, I've turned down rewards simply because it was more fun for me to be able to RP than to get paid to have done it. Besides when you start to do something simply for the paycheck it becomes too routine and mundane and after a while you start to hate it and resent it. Overall I think just get out there have fun and be yourself....well your char. ;)
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Yes, we've been into those together Izza but the fact that I enjoy the RP or not has nothing to do with the thread. The point is it's asking for a reward .. I disagree too.. but still I think we have to look into the reason for asking for payback.. and the reason, as I see it, is another problem.
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Yes it has. The thread states that its author thinks giving tria to players will enhance the roleplay experience. I disagreed and gave an alternative. Izzabella did pretty much the same.
I don't think messing up the economy OOCly will actually help with anything (giving tria for RP effort.) Though I do believe we should get rid of PP (not of tria, tria is the currency) since it would also help making levelling a bit easier and less battle focused. Awarding RP usually only works on events and such.
You don't think people should be made to RP in a RP game? Successful games, even diverging in the number of players involved, enforce RP. Every good RP game I've played has this policy. If PS doesn't follow, PS isn't a good RPG. It's a poor hack n' slash, "Second Life" crap.
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There is still little agreement upon what Role Play consists of where the minimalist view is doing whatever you do with your character while maintaining respect for the settings and the more aggressive view is that it is playing out scripted, broadly blocked out or minutely detailed, passion plays varying in complexity of design. There needs to be support for both these styles and everything in between. The more ardent role players seem to fixate on the latter and lack appreciation for the former.
It is this broad range of acceptable behavior that makes the idea of "pay for play" problematic.
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You don't think people should be made to RP in a RP game? Successful games, even diverging in the number of players involved, enforce RP. Every good RP game I've played has this policy. If PS doesn't follow, PS isn't a good RPG. It's a poor hack n' slash, "Second Life" crap.
I've had no chance to check on the ways other games enforce RP. I think games are easier to rank than to compare.
Maybe the way RP is being enforced in PS atm could be revised. I tried wih the threads like "what makes you not rp (or sorta)..." but I can hardly find a single acknowledgement that issues the underlying intention of the 'intro' for example.. I really don't know if this was done to enforce RPing or not.. No one says that. (maybe i didn't saw it).
I once posted that actions should lead to RP.. I see some samples the possible policy of "no-action should lead to RP" in PS. I mean, what is happening to your character that you don't 'authorize'? any action is based on an explanation of it.. and RP evolves from that (this is just an example).
Perhaps I should revise my posts and state: "RP can not be forced to success by leaving it as the only choice" (nah, I don't like it either)..
Not long ago, there were actions that could easily lead to RP. Now the chars are set in a 'bubble' where nothing happens unless either authorized or through RP. IMO this makes RP harder or to say it better, leaves the chances of RP in the hands of the elite RPrs (NOT IN ALL CASES). It is very difficult for newbies to break the ice. Think yourself as a newbie for a while.. just picture the situation when you enter a scenario of typical RP in PS.. It could be quite confusing.
And since RP could be getting harder to achieve, perhaps the original poster is right when asking for reward.. maybe he/she thinks that our chars can do one or the other but not both and possibly because of the RP enforcing methods.
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*Mythryndel wraps himself in a asbestos cloak*
What i said was that "on the forums" that seems to be the most common divide. The game contains so many shades of grey, and I contribute to that murky grey-ness. In game, i think that the number 1 reason there isn't more RP is the tabs. The number 2 reason, currently, is the introduction system, and number 3 being the economy.
I do try to RP in-game. I will continue to try to RP in the game. However, WHAT IS RP IN-GAME??? Is RP simply saying "Hello Stranger, what brings you forth to this mining camp?" Is RP going to the Tavern and making a fool of yourself (in character) throwing drinks in peoples faces and dancing topless on the bar stools?
I do not frequent the tavern, and I try to be in-character when addressing new people. However, if push comes to shove and I have a lot going on, I could care less about the Main tab. If i am in a group that is working on crafting blades in Trasok's, or fighting Ulbers near the Gold mine, or whatever, a bunch of "Someone Says" with no obvious way to determine who that someone was is going to cause me to ignore it a lot of the time. There are also sooo many messages that scroll that it is information overload. Why is it that money that is looted shows up on the main tab, but PP counts and such show up on the system tab? Each time I kill a trepor I have two tabs that blink at me. I also spend a lot of time trying to find people online that have what I am looking to purchase. If I do not have 30k trias, I cannot usually buy a crafted item because nobody bothers to auction them. I think that 1 of 2 things should happen here...
1. Every ore and weapon that is sold to a merchant, should be kept as inventory to sell, with a percentage markup over what it was purchased for.
Or
2. Create a consignment merchant that allows players to set prices for items in-game.
The tabs, I do not know how to make that better at the moment. I can post later if I think of something.
The intro system... that has been flamed a LOT already. I think that it is a good concept, but currently it is poorly implemented.
Just so everybody can pigeon hole me... I play PS because i like the game. I like the mechanics, the graphics, the actual game play. RP is second to me, but makes the game more enjoyable when people do actually respond to me in-character. PS to me is a game, not a big chat client. If i am going to walk into a bar and say i can kick you up one side of the street and down the other, I intend to have the stats/skills to back that up. I am not going to sit around as a lvl 0 everything and talk.
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Wow, Myth, I agree with you completely.
Someone seconds that motion. :P
One thing though, on what you said about merchants and consignments. I do not play WoW, and i do not suggest we make a game like WoW, but i do think they have a good idea about an auction house. Maybe not a physical place like a house, but a menu or window where you would go to put items up for auction, people could search them, and contact info would be displayed.
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I've had no chance to check on the ways other games enforce RP. I think games are easier to rank than to compare.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm not simply blowing off steam: check WoW's Roleplay Policy (http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=20458)
(Quick reply, will check other replies later on)
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(Double post to update)
I do try to RP in-game. I will continue to try to RP in the game. However, WHAT IS RP IN-GAME??? Is RP simply saying "Hello Stranger, what brings you forth to this mining camp?" Is RP going to the Tavern and making a fool of yourself (in character) throwing drinks in peoples faces and dancing topless on the bar stools?
Roleplaying in-game is being in character. You don't have to speak with anyone, you don't even have to go looking for interaction. But if people interact with you, you are supposed to respond. Your character can be a mindless fighting drone, as long as you are consistent with that. It just can't be talking about cars, or be a mindless fighting drone that sometimes communicates with people to tell them how he has connections within the Octarchy. Get my drift?
I share preoccupations with you, about the tabs, the economy and the introduce system.
If I do not have 30k trias, I cannot usually buy a crafted item because nobody bothers to auction them. I think that 1 of 2 things should happen here...
This is all up to the community. Let me advertise here that the Imperial Trades' highest price for crafted items is 13.860 tria for a Claymore of finest quality. This is because the Claymore involves a lot more materials and therefore is obviously more expensive to create than a dagger. If you want good crafted items without paying too much for them, look for the best deals.
Waoknie: I don't get you that well. But I think you're saying that RP isn't fair to newbies. That's not true. Roleplay is only unfair to people that do not know it. Newbies should learn how to Roleplay from reading the PlaneShift guide. If they were too lazy to do that, it's normal that they'll get frowned at... But usually people kindly direct newbies the right way.
I don't think you know what elite RPers are. Elite RPers aren't people who speak better and because of that control the setting. They're just people who can express their character very well, giving a good time for everyone around (Take Hwnae as an example.)
If the GM's can propose a good moderation RP-wise, then abuses (by any type of RPer) would not be frequent.
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By your definition of RP, I adhere to that in all but guild chat.
I have heard about a craft fair of sorts in Hydlaa Sunday afternoons, but I am not able to get on at that time. This is my primary reason for strongly recommending some kind of NPC merchant system. There are lots of accounts and lots of item crafters in-game, but people are not online 24/7. I appreciate your take on prices for items. The price is related to the amount of material required to make it. This is not consistent with the few auction announcements I have seen in my time here, which is refreshing.
I am curious to know how to get in touch with your crafters in-game. Please PM me if this is not appropriate chatter on the forums, or if you can only tell me the name of a guy who knows a guy who might be able to get me in touch with these rare crafters.
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I've had no chance to check on the ways other games enforce RP. I think games are easier to rank than to compare.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm not simply blowing off steam: check WoW's Roleplay Policy (http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=20458)
It is true, I had no chance to check on that. It has nothing to do with confidence. What I meant is that actions used to lead to RP in PS. It's just an idea.. A policy is nothing without the aid of the system.. And it's exactly that what I'questioning: The way the system seems to be bent for leaving room for RP by limiting actions. Nothing more.
Waoknie: I don't get you that well. But I think you're saying that RP isn't fair to newbies. That's not true. Roleplay is only unfair to people that do not know it. Newbies should learn how to Roleplay from reading the PlaneShift guide...
No. I did not say that it is unfair. 'Newbie' is by definition implies someone who doesn't know or has the skills. Yes, we should all read the guides.
I tried to point that for a newbie it could be easier too to engage in RP when there is an action envolved. But there is little room for actions without explainations with the way the system is evolving. (check out the 'bubble' I mentioned before)
My comments have nothing to do with RPing quality in this game or any other. I'm not opposed to RP.. On the contrary, I'm seeking for ways to encourage it without the need of a reward: An alternative derived from the original poster's idea.
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The part of the "system" that should monitor RP is the GM's. Abusing of inconsistent RP (obvious abuse of setting, obvious abuse of player characters) should be a reason for warnings, but currently isn't. Fortunately obvious abuse of OOC is, I think.
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The part of the "system" that should monitor RP is the GM's. Abusing of inconsistent RP (obvious abuse of setting, obvious abuse of player characters) should be a reason for warnings, but currently isn't. Fortunately obvious abuse of OOC is, I think.
Yes, GM's are entitled to monitor RP. But when I refer to 'system', I mean the mechanics of the game. I think that the actions (anything that may actually happen to the character or what the char can do to others) are limited. For example, An unlocked guildhouse becomes a huge issue if for some reason gets robbed (so huge that it becomes OOC and has to be solved here?). That's an action that may lead to RP (I know it's a bad thing but still is something that can happen legally). Not many actions of this type are left in the game. Almost anything you want to do must be expressed in a sort of conversation and agreed to. This IMO, automatically kills the chances of actions to become RP.
I dunno if this thread is monitored but maybe we should open another thread cux our discussion is walking away from the original post's idea.
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Getting paid for RP'ing would be counter-productive to the setting, if even possible. How would you qualitatively define roleplaying? You can't. Unless you want a grammar parser that monitors everything every one says. Maybe penalties for the number of times people say LOL?
Speaking of economy, last I checked this game was free to play. The dev's are building a world where they want to roleplay in. In other words, they aren't driven by the number of people who log in each night because they don't get paid per account. It is their right to enforce the rules of RP'ing as they see fit, though I do hope they keep some moderation to that as people do roleplay differently. But if people don't like that choice, they are free themselves to go elsewhere. I read the rules. When I log in, I do my best to stay in character. If I don't want to be in a world were roleplaying is encouraged, I can go play another game.
I have the same problem when I play on RP servers in other games. A lot of people simply don't RP there and they kind of mess it up, though I considered them to just be annoying NPC's. They don't contribute to the game world other than to provide a source of conflict. Ignore it or move on, which may be your best solution. If a GM sees someone not staying character, ban them from chatting for a few days. Let them play, but they just can't speak in game. Kind of a global ignore.
Just my 2C. I agree that roleplaying should be a reward in itself and that getting paid for it just really can't be defined well enough to be doable.