PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Integrity on April 28, 2008, 12:07:27 am
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The same community that is linked to on the official PlaneShift website:
http://www.planeshift.it/other_languages.html
http://www.psde.de/
Is the official PlaneShift team aware of what's going on there or do they choose to turn a blind eye as long as it serves to promote the game?
They don't seem to have a problem with openly posting "SPOILERS" on their forums (using the [spoiler] tags that the forum recognizes) to all the in-game quests. All their admins are well aware of it and even encourage it. Moreover, they have their own Wiki (that you need to register for) that contains even more "SPOILERS". Some of the posters there who post some of the "SPOILERS" (as in the actual answers to quest puzzles) are also fairly regular posters here and will even defend the "NO SPOILERS" policy here. Am I the only one who sees some major hypocrisy going on both sites?
Before any angry posters lash out at me (which I'm sure they will try), I *LIKE* being able to post "SPOILERS" on the forum using the [spoiler] tags. People should be able to discuss the quests and decide for themselves whether they want to see a "SPOILER" or not. However, I question the main PlaneShift's team and German community's integrity when the "SPOILERS" are such a taboo here and people always get bitter responses when they post even a small excerpt from a dialog (without any actual answers/responses).
Just in case the main team here wasn't aware of it, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to remove the link to the German community from your main site now? Are you going to ask them to remove the spoilers? What are you going to do, if they don't? Or are you going to say that you're not responsible, put the blame on them but continue turning a blind eye and linking to them from your main site as long as it helps to promote the game? Think of it as an integrity test.
Make no mistake, this isn't posted to "dog out" the German community. In fact, I like their setup much better than the official site. However, I don't like the hypocrisy involved between both parties.
I won't bother wasting time arguing with anyone here. I'll simply leave it at that and check the main PS site in, say, a week or two to see if the link to the German PS site still exists and if there are any changes to the German community site. And, for example, if they make a spoiler forum private but still available to registered users (which won't change the fundamental problem). Then I'll know my answer.
By the way, the same applies to hypocrite guilds that post "SPOILERS" on their private forums but defend the "NO SPOILERS" policy on the official forum.
The point here is that you can't have it both ways.
The ball is in your court now. :)
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Woah, aggression :] Easy there.
Yeah, Talad will probably remove the link and send the community administrators an email asking them to follow our rules. Whether you like them or not, unfortunately they're going to be enforced. We don't regularly check the sites, and when they were added it was agreed that such practices would be avoided. Guess that was forgotten.
Thanks for the heads up.
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Hipocrisy, hipocrisy.. ::) Isnt it more like posting spoilers is allowed as long as its in a restricted area? If I am not mistaking, its actually about posting spoilers in public areas.
As I can see it, both parties agree on allowing spoilers in certain areas, and having publically accessible areas free of such - not sure if thats what you are calling "hipocrisy";). Unless you would like to have the official forums here to have a spoiler section too.. =P
EDIT:
they're going to be enforced
Will we be "enforced" to clean our non-public forums of spoilers too (in case we had some=P)? lol
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I just visited the German forums and entered no password to see the spoilers. The only thing keeping me from reading them is that I don't speak German :-[.
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I have to agree with Velh. As far as I am concerned spoilers don't have anything to do in public areas where everyone can access them - in fact, such is forbidden.
Also there was a public spoiler list some time ago, which had to be made private. In my opinion spoilers have nothing to do in public areas, but - there's always a but, no? - in private areas, like guild forums they can be tolerated, depending on the way they are posted there.
I am all against plain spoiler lists, but I am for a list which tells a story about the quest, looks like a letter from someone to someone else, or simply is a record in a guilds _internal_ library - and in fact, we handle it this way in our guild.
Now to psde.de, I would have to have a look at their site again to get an opinion, but however, if they have spoilers listed, they should remove them, no matter if one needs to be registered for their site or not, this is because they are a public accessible community site and everyone is free to register there.
EDIT:
I actually see no hypocrisy with saying public spoilers are forbidden but private (guild internal) spoilers are allowed
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[...]
Is the official PlaneShift team aware of what's going on there or do they choose to turn a blind eye as long as it serves to promote the game?
They don't seem to have a problem with openly posting "SPOILERS" on their forums (using the [spoiler] tags that the forum recognizes) to all the in-game quests.
How about speaking with the community before making a post like this?
I won't bother wasting time arguing with anyone here. I'll simply leave it at that and check the main PS site in, say, a week or two to see if the link to the German PS site still exists and if there are any changes to the German community site. And, for example, if they make a spoiler forum private but still available to registered users (which won't change the fundamental problem). Then I'll know my answer.
[...]
The ball is in your court now. :)
*doesn't really feel under integrity's command*
What I - in contrast to all others ;) - agree to is that spoilers should be allowed, but Im aware that this won't happen ;) I also guess that a discussion about it would be endless again what speaks for locking this thread rather soon...
Anyways, just writing a post and saying you don't mind any reply is pretty rude.
Actually, I happen to have asked there for some kind of spoiler in irc recently (reason doesn't matter) and got a unison answer that they personally don't have spoilers and don't like them. Take this independant from what maybe is on the webpage.
For the german community; I've seen more people being helped there and more qualified than anywhere else!
Maybe that's a reason why I don't react well on this post...
To sum up... the way this is written looks more like a flaming than a start of a discussion about a things that are acutally questionable
Sen
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Wow, awesome. What i just saw was someone who doesn't like spoilers (whatever they may say) create an alternate forum account and complain about what is going on in a completely different forum... Wow....
First off, what do you care about other people's "integrity" and "hypocrisy"? If it isn't the fact that they are posting spoilers that is a problem to you, why post about it? To bring it to people's attention? I don't think this has just been overlooked. Talad & Co run a pretty tight ship here.
Personally, I can't read German and I have no problem with the way they run things or the way things are run here. Spoilers or no spoilers, I don't care. I just don't see a reason to come crying home over something as stupid as other people's integrity.
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The original post was just someone going "Look! Someone is breaking your rule! What are you going to do about it? Huh? Huh? HUH?!" :) Just another tumbleweed trying to bring down a tree. I get the feeling s/he had nothing against the German community but rather delights in stirring the pot on this side of the fence. I find it ludicrous, but whatever.
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it's the internet. immaturity runs rampant because most people think they are "anonymous" i laugh at that kind of thinking myself.
as for the topic at hand.... I imagine they'll be requested to remove it all from public view, or their site will be disowned and removed from links on the official website.
having a list of spoiler material is fine. sharing it with friends/guild mates/ etc is fine so long that access is restricted to the material. posting spoiler material openly on the internet for anyone to simply click and see is discouraged on. simple as that :)
and this is for kary since she brought it up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_hKDp0Zlnk&NR=1
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Yeah, great start on the forum Integrity, first post and you start with denounciating. Well, we will see how far your integrity goes.
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Spoilers shouldn't be used because they cause players to act with their characters in less real way.
Now, the whole problem with spoilers is that many people don't want to use them and others do. The group who complains that the other group has an edge over them, because they can find and complete quests faster for their valuable reward. *> This is why they are forbidden - to put everyone on the same level and to discourage people from coming into the group who spoil and encourage them to stay, to shape the community around RPing.
So, no public spoilers, i think that includes a site where all you need to do is fill registration form, activate with email and enjoy - thats public.
But fact is you can do nothing to put the spoileirs site down, but polite asking. It will be there, available through google or other means. AB could sue them for processing copyrighted material, but this isn't happening because of obvious reasons.
What about "private" spoilers used by tens of people?
IMO there should be heavy nay for them too, but since they are hard to track, many of our good friends use them, they are smart enough to deliver good RP even if spoiling, or noone likes to be the bad spy who digs them out and punish people using them... these spoilers are allowed even if spoilers are disallowed... yes there is a bit of hypocrisy there.
Afterall this makes people to join guilds because of ooc reasons - for spoilers. This allows an ooc edge over people who are not in a guild or refuse to use spoilers. This behaviour clearly stays against "*".
But here is another thing. The NPCs understanding of questions given to them is so low that ICly this should put them same as morons even though some of their answers are strongly oppoed to this. So, IMO there is really no reason why not use spoilers, which are also ooc and avoid the other ooc. So i'm really not suprised many people use spoilers
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Spoilers shouldn't be used because they cause players to act with their characters in less real way.
Sorry, please don't make me laugh. From what I see every day in Planeshift this can't be any problem at all.
Now, the whole problem with spoilers is that many people don't want to use them and others do.
That's why Spoilers are or should be marked with [Spoilers] in the subject and "[s!][/s!]" in the text. You can then decide to read it or leave it.
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o wow, are you just strongly into spoiling or are you just proving something for the sake of doing it for some reasons?
As for the first part, so you are saying that if someone gets a glyph with spoilers path, he did it because he is smart or rather because he machancally retyped some certain phrases? If everyone are running around with glyphs of doom, which are supposed to be very rare and unknown to most, is it looking realistic? Yeah, I actually want you to answer this question. Go laugh if it makes you feel better.
As for the second part, please learn quoting the full context, rather than part of it, which isn't telling anything at all.
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I don't think it is an issue of whether they use some tags to make it only visible by mouseover or not, I think the issue is, that you do not need to be registered at all to view it. This way _everyone_ _can_ access them and even google will reveal them in plaintext searches.
I am not sure if Talad will allow them to keep the spoilers if they made it accessible only for registered users, since it is not a guild page but a big community page. The decission, however, lays by Talad and by the admin of psde.de.
The main problem with spoilers is, that they encourage to use them rather than trying it on your own. I personally know a lot of people who do that, but also know a lot of people who first try it on their own and if they really can't find the answer to a riddle, or the correct phrase they look into a spoiler list, or ask friends for help. It has been stated often enough, that NPC's are not yet that smart and that the quest system is still far from being perfect, so it is understandable that spoilers are needed sometimes - but those who _only_ use spoilers to get all the rewards from the quests discourage the devs work. It's a lot of work to write a quest, from getting the idea for it, over making it fit into the settings to actually write the script for it.
@Integrity. I don't know who you are, but seriously, the way you have put it is pretty rude. You wanted to point out that there are public spoilers, fine, but you neither show respect for the staff of psde.de who enforce the usage of the spoiler tags [rather than allowing everyone to post spoilers without that tag], neither for the devs who will deal with it. You complain about hypocrisy, but aren't you the biggest hypocrite of all of them - by making such a blame-post but saying you do like to use the feature? Think about it - and remember it next time you make a post
They don't seem to have a problem with openly posting "SPOILERS" on their forums (using the [spoiler] tags that the forum recognizes) to all the in-game quests.
Well, I had a look at the site and it really is not like you stated it. The way you put it says they have a huge list of _all_ quests and spoilers for _each_ of them, but thats not the case. The spoilers are in their help section, where people ask for quest help when they are stuck on the phrasing, game mechanics, or can't find the answer to a riddle. I have not seen a single post there which is a pure spoiler
@Nikodemus: I agree with a lot of your points, except for one. You say people join guilds for ooc reasons to get spoilers. Well, while it is trua that most (if not all guilds) have spoilers, I doubt a player will join a guild only for that. Most (if not all) guilds recruit their members by IC means and before a member joins a guild they most probably won't know the quality and quantity of the spoilers in their forums. Btw, what is the star in your post referring to? :P
If everyone are running around with glyphs of doom, which are supposed to be very rare and unknown to most, is it looking realistic?
Glyph of doom? Oh gimme da spoiler! :D
No seriously, it's not realistic, but the problem here lays within the game mechanics, which yet reveal the same reward to every person who does the quest and in due time a lot of people will do it, with or without spoilers. A possible solution would be to change the quest system to allow random rewards and make the most rare reward have a lesser chance to be gotten than the not so rare rewards - yeah, that sounds like an idea, gonna feature request that ;)
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Disclaimer: Following post contains my personal opinion and nothing else.
I'm part of said community's staff and I'd like to clarify some things.
There are no complete walkthroughs or solutions to any quest on psde (the German community)!
When we designed psde we decided that we won't follow the strict anti-spoiler policy as you all know it from this forum.
There's a simple reason for it: Our goal was (and still is) to help players to enjoy our beloved game as much as possible. A player who tries to solve a quest for days and can't finish it because the NPCs won't understand whatever he tries gets frustrated. That's where the enjoyment ends. It's simples as that. Long thing put short: Yes, we allow posters to ask questions about certain quests. Nearly every time a hint into the right direction is enough to make them happy ....
Every entry that could contain the slightest spoiler has to be marked as such. Additionally we provide special tags to hide text-passages that are spoilers. Btw: Yes, we moderate the forums there and we take care that the tags and signs get used when needed.
Spoilers in the Wiki are only available for registered users. We follow the approach that every player should have his own choice when the question arises if he'd like to get some hints. If you don't like it: Fine, don't click where a huge, bold [SPOILER] shows up ...
I like to mention another thing: Every single member of psde's staff has put a huge bunch of work and time into it. I don't know how much time I spent in answering techn. questions, updating the site or translating all kind of official stuff to German. It's been fun and i don't regret a second of it. We build the largest national PS community with about 2800 registered members. If you look at PS' playerbase you'll find a lot Germans ... maybe, just maybe, our concept worked out?
I'm not much of a writer, so i'll close here. If someone feels the urge to discuss this further: I can be found on IRC.
Have a nice day :)
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@Nikodemus: I agree with a lot of your points, except for one. You say people join guilds for ooc reasons to get spoilers. Well, while it is trua that most (if not all guilds) have spoilers, I doubt a player will join a guild only for that. Most (if not all) guilds recruit their members by IC means and before a member joins a guild they most probably won't know the quality and quantity of the spoilers in their forums. Btw, what is the star in your post referring to? :P
There was/are clear examples of people who was joining different guilds to broaden their spoilers database, even guilds stealing spoilers from each another. If there was people motivated enough to speak about it openly on these forums, there are a lot more who does it and you never know (because it is their goal, it would be mine if i was doing this) Yes, i suppose many people (not everyone) join guilds because of IC reasons, but I wouldn't be suprised if many of them have choosen a guild with good storyline and spoilers over a guild with only good storyline.
I really cant say how many guilds recruit with only IC means and if massrecruiting is still present in game, but i risk saying that it is over that it is marginal.
I added an arrow to the first star ;) The second star is refering to the first one.
If everyone are running around with glyphs of doom, which are supposed to be very rare and unknown to most, is it looking realistic?
Glyph of doom? Oh gimme da spoiler! :D
No seriously, it's not realistic, but the problem here lays within the game mechanics, which yet reveal the same reward to every person who does the quest and in due time a lot of people will do it, with or without spoilers. A possible solution would be to change the quest system to allow random rewards and make the most rare reward have a lesser chance to be gotten than the not so rare rewards - yeah, that sounds like an idea, gonna feature request that ;)
Sorry, don't have one ;P
But wil you agree there will be more people runing around with glyph of doom at a given time if spoilers are present?
With taking into account that people come and go. They play PS, takes a break and maybe leave and meanwhile new people join.
I would rather like to see less glyphs of doom if they are supposed to be rare, rather than see more of them because of spoilers.
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o wow, are you just strongly into spoiling or are you just proving something for the sake of doing it for some reasons?
Sometimes I like to use spoilers, sometimes I don't. But it is me who decides when to do what. Well, you know that this world has all shades of grey. There is not always black and white. I totally understand people who don't want to use spoilers but I do understand people, too, who are in need of some spoiling. Simple as that.
As for the first part, so you are saying that if someone gets a glyph with spoilers path, he did it because he is smart or rather because he machancally retyped some certain phrases? If everyone are running around with glyphs of doom, which are supposed to be very rare and unknown to most, is it looking realistic? Yeah, I actually want you to answer this question. Go laugh if it makes you feel better.
Oh, didn't realise that I was saying this. I thought we were talking about spoilers in general. Do you really think that removing all spoilers from the forum(s) will solve this problem you mentioned? You notice that there are other ways to get the necessary information, e.g. other players, guilds? People who are into powerplaying usually find these sources of information rather quickly and are not in need of some spoilers in some forum. So I'm saying equal rights for everyone and leave it to the players to decide, wether they want to use the spoilers or not.
In to regard to laughing, you can believe me that it is a bitter laugh. Why? Because every day I'm in Planeshift I see so many things that really ruin my roleplaying experience in this game and none of it has anything to do with spoilers.
As for the second part, please learn quoting the full context, rather than part of it, which isn't telling anything at all.
I was quoting that part I was refering to. I really hate it when people quote whole threads when they just want to refer to none or a small part of it. This really clutters the forums with useless information.
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[...You notice that there are other ways to get the necessary information, e.g. other players, guilds? ...
If for example someone asked me during quest where to find X, i telled him/her try in Hydlaa and added something like "And don't miss to view the city panorama from the roof of the tavern!"
This type if hinting is ok i think :)
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I would rather like to see less glyphs of doom if they are supposed to be rare, rather than see more of them because of spoilers.
I'd prefer to see them given out more rarely, no matter if there are spoilers or not. The feature request I posted http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1456 (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1456) here would solve that issue. :)
Do you really think that removing all spoilers from the forum(s) will solve this problem you mentioned?
IMHO it won't solve the issue, besides the fact that it is almost impossible, even if the PS staff could get on every guild site and enforce the guild people to remove the spoilers, they could still trade them as text files via email or messenger or by other means. Some people even don't use spoiler lists but ask friends ingame via /tell
I don't think spoilers should be forbidden _that_ strictly, just because there are situations where someone really needs this kind of help. Be it people who don't speak english well enough to figure the correct phrasing, or be it that a riddle is too hard for someone and s/he needs a little hint - or other reasons, you know as best why you use spoilers, don't you? :D
You notice that there are other ways to get the necessary information, e.g. other players, guilds?
Imho asking other players for the solution of a quest is also spoiling, thats why it is so hard to strictly forbid them, besides: you can legally spoil in public and noone can forbid you to do so - simply by rping it (like a player comes to a crowd of other players and asks for the answer of a riddle, everyone is legally allowed to tell the answer in an IC way :P
In to regard to laughing, you can believe me that it is a bitter laugh. Why? Because every day I'm in Planeshift I see so many things that really ruin my roleplaying experience in this game and none of it has anything to do with spoilers.
I'm glad you still play :D
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I am too a member of the staff of psde.de as well as founder of the site.
It's true we have spoilers publically available and the reason is exactly like peeg phrased it.
We provide help (you can call it spoilers) for the same reason the official boards provide the tutorial walkthrough, to avoid frustration.
Anyhow "heavy" spoilers are only available after registration and therefore not visible when searching for "planeshift deutsch hilfe" (planeshift german help) via google.
I would be really disappointed when the link to psde.de in the other languages (http://www.planeshift.it/other_languages.html) section would be removed.
We provide much more than just spoilers we provide a community base and help in general. Besides we are a few months away from providing the first working translation since MB as well as a platform for translation open for every language. We wouldn't have found helfull (and nice) community members which dedicate their time to this if it weren't for our site.
We encourage roleplaying whenever possible, in fact our staff values rp in PS over most other aspects and that's what we try to get across to our community.
I would really like to discuss all this further with the PS team, maybe we find a solution...
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I was quoting that part I was refering to. I really hate it when people quote whole threads when they just want to refer to none or a small part of it. This really clutters the forums with useless information.
we all hate when people quote wholeo post but what you did is equal to quoting one word and it looks like commenting on it.
Quote full context.
We can keep saying that we should freely allow spoilers, because powergamers always find a way and we RPers sometimes need spoilers to keep the thing fun but with that we forget that it isn't working in binary mode. In fact, the more we support spoilers, the more people gets convinced with powerleveling, the same people may keep RPing, but the same people will gain unfair edge over players who don't want to use spoilers even if it means they fail quest, they won't reach their so wanted goals. Life, same as real, you need to learn enjoing it.
In short, the more you support spoilers the less people try playing without them.
I use to say this: spoilers are fine as long as you keep sharing them while in game, because this method limits them to IMO controllable level. When you have not enough time to go in game, ask friends, but forums and sites with these are not very good way to go.
Now, as i wrote in my first post, I think the whole thing will be valid and very good solution discouraging spoiling if the NPCs communication system was working good enough. It isn't, so I really won't blame anyone for spoiling.
The only question is what we do when the NPC communication start working enough that 95% of people will be fully satisfied.
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Spoilers are completely against the spirit of the game. In this stage of development (still alpha) it is IMPERATIVE that people DO get frustrated!
Frustration leads to bug reports, but reports to smarter npcs, smarter npcs to a better game.
The philosophy of the two PSDE members posted here and several other posters would make much more sense if the game was finished; it is not.
We need people to find the flaws and to report them.
An extensive list of spoilers ANYWHERE is not in the best interest of furthering PlaneShift.
If any community wants to help, do so by teaching people to be patient, leading them to the bug tracker, and helping them to learn how to use it.
An alarming number of people are using PS like it is a finished product, stop this insanity and test the game please.
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I like spoilers! (http://www.swautodesign.co.uk/Blog/Additional/P1%20Spoiler.jpg) They make cars go fast! and look really cool! Oh, wait, wrong kind of spoiler.
I looked at the site with the aid of google translation and did not see anything too offensive. I even did a search for spoiler.
Tempest <--> Teacup, I think.
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Frustration could possibly lead to more bug reports if people get highly motivated the same time
(not _are_ hightly motivated, _being made_ motivated by whatever; this doesn't come by itself)
Frustration without the high motivation leads to more people leaving imho and rather less bug reports.
I like the idea of those bug reports making the game better, but following this strictly there would be... uhm.. plenty of redundant bug entries - imagine all those who can't get through the tutorial would make bug reports... I wouldn't want to work through them. *opens the discussion if spoilers might be given in help channel ;D*
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Sorry Xillix, but I think frustration only leads to player leaving this game. I mean, this game has been in its alpha for how many years? The forum is full of bug reports, suggestions and new ideas but it seems that the devs can't keep up with players reporting. It is not that we see a new version every other month or so. Please don't get me wrong, I really like this game, not so much because of its content but because the roleplaying aspect is still greater than in other games despite my occasional rants. Please look around on the MMORPG market and you will see, that there are quite a few games with much greater content then Planeshift, even in the free-to-play section.
Well, I think that this game has a lot of players helping it despite some spoilers hanging around somewhere.
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The forum is full of bug reports, suggestions and new ideas but it seems that the devs can't keep up with players reporting.
The forum is NOT the place to report bugs, if you have a bug report it on the bug tracker, if you have a decent feature request report it there as well, not all devs have time to look though the forum for issues to add/fix ingame.
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I just visited the German forums and entered no password to see the spoilers. The only thing keeping me from reading them is that I don't speak German :-[.
I dont either!!! I see no problem here... >.>
;D kidding
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The forum is full of bug reports, suggestions and new ideas but it seems that the devs can't keep up with players reporting.
The forum is NOT the place to report bugs, if you have a bug report it on the bug tracker, if you have a decent feature request report it there as well, not all devs have time to look though the forum for issues to add/fix ingame.
If you reread my post you will see that "bug reports" was just one part of it. I wanted to express that the devs have quite a large amount of feedback, being it from the forum or the bug tracker.
Oh, and speaking of bug reports, aren't bug reports some form of spoilers, too? I mean, if you know a bug you can either avoid or exploit it, depending on the bug.
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Bugs that are exploitable are marked as private so only team members working on them can have access to them.
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yay, good to know.
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If someone absolutely needs a spoiler, can you not send them a PM with the info? There is no good reason to make a public post with the information available to any Joe Shmoe to see. I understand the sheer amount of work involved in taking care of a community and helping newbies - but there are ways to do that, that make everyone happy.
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/me starts pondering more quests that can not be ruined by spoiler walkthroughs.
If anyone has a walkthrough on their site for a certain secret set of quests to get into a certain secret dark area, I will be -sorely- disappointed in both the person who posted it and the people who read it. A little help on parts of a quest that should work, but don't after 20 questions is OK (but then REPORT what answers you tried), but I despise complete walkthroughs. I don't write quests so people can read ahead and pick the 'best' ending.
/me grins evilly as he walks off.
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To me spoilers that give the answer and take out any unintended "guess work" make it the case that questing system will not improve.
To me there is NO QUESTION OF THE TRUTH OF THIS STATEMENT.
We have provided you as TESTERS all the means needed to make the game better with us.
If testers continue to view the game as complete and use spoilers to find some obscure answers that one person found along the way and posted to a spoiler forum settings will NEVER KNOW that there is a problem.
If an individual says the npcs are stupid they can blame the failure of testers to test and grant the needed feedback, we have bent over backwards seeking more triggers for you and entered many thousands of new entries in response to what testers who have what I consider a more ethical approach to PlaneShift have offered us.
Spoilers are also an enemy of honestly roleplaying one's character as they provide the player a chance to min/max their approach for the best outcome without regard to who their character is.
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First, I'd like thank the original poster for posting this site. I was just logging on to the forums to maybe post something looking for German players. I am learning German slowly and conversation with native speakers would help. So yes, no matter what your motivation was for posting the link, I am grateful and am bookmarking the site.
As to the Spoiler idea: Is it possible to consider more of a middle ground with the spoilers? It is very frustrating to work part way through a quest, to dedicate time and effort to the quest only to be defeated by an NPC that won't understand the concept that you are furiously typing at it. Perhaps if there was an ingame command like /bug <quest> <npc> <description> <other relevent information> where a player could submit a report about issues like these, then fire up the browser and find a workable solution so they can finish the quest instead of becoming annoyed and giving up.
Now before I get flamed, I am very new to the game and haven't discovered all of the features yet, so please, if this already is a feature, if you wouldn't mind politely correcting me I would appreciate it.
I'm not suggesting this because I think that I know better than anyone else, I'm simply trying to see if there can be some sort of a win win combination. I do realize that the game is still in testing and I plan on trying to break as many things as I can possibly figure out how to :D
Thanks,
Caveman
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In a case like what you said, caveman, it always helps me to:
1. use the help tab and
2. calmly state the problem
3. state what you have already tried
4. politely ask for help
5. wait patiently for an answer
i promise you it works :D
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I fail to see what the great transgression is in all this. It's hard to believe that anyone questing in Yliakum has not had clues spelled out to them, whether in dialogue or (mostly) through guilds. The real problem is the nature of the quests themselves....they simply are not logic based. Some of the correct dialogue needed for solving is so remote, so impossible to guess without assistance, that making a big deal over any 'spoiler' seems foolish to me. It's acceptable to help a friend online or to 'secretly' offer them the answer in a password protected guild website, but a grave transgression if it's published in a public forum? I fail to see any difference, except that the newcomer without a support system does not stand a chance with many quests. Perhaps if all quests could be reasoned purely with logic and clues, then there would be some validity in withholding 'spoilers'
The only positive aspect with the system as it is might be that newcomers are forced to converse with others and hope for assistance from them. Just my take.
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Some of the correct dialogue needed for solving is so remote, so impossible to guess without assistance, that making a big deal over any 'spoiler' seems foolish to me.
Provide Rizin with some examples. Watch what happens. Be part of the solution: don't proliferate what you see as a problem.
Heck, provide US with some examples. I'd love to see what you consider illogical.
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It is indeed so much true that most people using spoilers aren't helping making the quests better. Ideally you should report every phrase you tried before you tried the spoiler. And since this is kind of testing phase, spoilers are even justified, because you can go on with the quest and have possibility to report other phrases, which didn't work before the flustration eat you alive. But then again, no full quests spoleirs, only one time separate phrases. If you are smart and can use full quest spoilers the same you would do with the one time ones and help devs same as good, then congratulations, but you are in the minority.
But as i see it, people aren't really reporting. Exactly the same way as you read wikipedia, but you don't contribute ;) I don't.
Although i really don't know how exactly the system with logging everything what players ask and NPCs don't understand works, but i'm of oppinion it should work better than players going to bug tracker and preparing whole bug report for a single thing, couple of phrases.
Although devs probably have the same amount of work, players don't have to do anything at all. Our time is precious too, everyone values their time.
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You don't even need to leave the game to report a quest problem. Filing a petition or contacting a GM is enough. GMs will test and forward the problem to Settings, be it through the BT or on IRC. The thing is some players do the quests only because of the rewards and like Xillix pointed out, that is a "finished game"/"power quester" mentality and has little to do with a RPG in development, so if people with that mentality protest and leave the game frustrated, so be it. Let them come back when the game is finished.
So, if you want to use spoilers go ahead. Knock yourself out. All the devs are asking is that you do not share them through public sites. They put a lot of work into creating new content for the game and the least you could do is show a little respect for that. Don't blur out the punchline of a joke someone else is telling. It's rude and kills all the fun.
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Provide Rizin with some examples. Watch what happens. Be part of the solution: don't proliferate what you see as a problem.
Heck, provide US with some examples. I'd love to see what you consider illogical.
Well, I think before one starts to work on specific examples one should work on the basics first as they tend to solve a lot of the examples. And the basic of the quest system in Planeshift is the communication with the NPC. If an NPC mentions a person, an item, a place, etc, one should be allowed to tell the NPC "tell me about <[person|item|place|...]>". This is the most frustrating part at the moment. An NPC tells you something and you ask about it but you will recieve a "Could you rephrase, please" way too often. Use this mechanism to give more informations about a quest and I promise that spoilers lessen in no time.
So here is the task that will keep Rizin or any other Dev busy for the next ten years: Rework every quest-NPC in the game to allow them to answer to the things they mention.
But I guess it doesn't need me to point out these obvious things. :(
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How about we start with one of the quests you got frustrated with? What Jeraphon is saying is that players who find inconsistencies should specify where and when they occur. So, instead of comfortably saying "do it all over" again. How about you provide us with a more specific course of action such as: "In quest <Quest Name> by <NPC1>, he tells you to look for <NPC2> but when you ask him "about <NPC2>, they say they don't understand".
You can report this on the bug tracker, in-game contacting a GM, or here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29353.0). But then some players just won't bother. It's easier to complain about everything.
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Hehe, there is that skill of finding out valuable information out of what other people write. Getting it out of this what isn't very constructive or personal input. If you can't do it, you probably fail to see the point or feel offended. I have experienced it from both sides.
In other words, Dajoji, Kaityra clearly wrote what is the problem.
And the basic of the quest system in Planeshift is the communication with the NPC. If an NPC mentions a person, an item, a place, etc, one should be allowed to tell the NPC "tell me about <[person|item|place|...]>". This is the most frustrating part at the moment.
There you have it.
Of course players can go on reporting it all to Jeraphon.... But if i was a dev, i'm not sure, but i would probably periodically go through different npcs, see what they talk about and write answers as Kaityra pointed out and i would be busy as hell.
And i will add yet another time. group npcs, write answers for things many NPCs should kow about and let multiple NPCs repeat the same message.
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My point is that saying "all of them are wrong, review all NPC dialogues" does little to solve the problem. If the players share their experience and report what they think is wrong in specific cases (not only directly to devs but through all the means available and already stated), it will be a lot quicker. But when there are spoilers out there and players don't need to test different answers, that feedback is lost. They may never realize there is a problem with the quest or NPC.
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Hehe, there is that skill of finding out valuable information out of what other people write.
Well, my English teacher used to call this skill "close reading" but I'm not even sure if this expression really exists in English. Just read what is written and not want you want to hear or read.
@Dajoji
Just complaining about everything would have been: "The quest system is a piece of s..." :-[ But that was not what I did. I gave a sound suggestion on how to improve things but players can't help this game of they are not listened to.
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If players weren't listened to, then there would be no public forums. Re-think your statement please.
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Players are listened to Kaityra. They really are. And I didn't mean to say you specifically were complaining about everything, only that your suggestion was not the most efficient way to go about this problem because reviewing all dialogs will take an awful lot of time (which can be spent developing new content). On the other hand players/testers can be of great aid in this because it is their interaction with NPCs that needs to be fluent. A dev may review everything ten times and still not foresee what players will say. Besides, there's an average of 100-150 players online and if only 10 of them reported the problems they find while talking to NPCs here and there, there would be a lot more progress in that department. It's not difficult, really. Contact a GM, file a petition, go on IRC, check the thread about NPCs, or even PM or email someone you think might help in this and it will be looked into. The channels are there to be used.
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If players weren't listened to, then there would be no public forums. Re-think your statement please.
Having a public forum doesn't prove anything, only things players suggest and which find their way into the game do. And this is were the real problem of this game lies: Limited resources to transform the ideas, wishes, bug reports, etc. into the game.
As I have already stated in one of my previous comments: The forum and the bug tracker contain enough for the devs to work on, to keep them busy for the next couple of years. But we hear "Give us more." and so we do but all we get is that we "complain about everything". You can believe me I know how hard the life of a developer can be, as I'm one myself, but I think it is about time that the developers become aware how frustrating it is for the players, too, to report and report, just to see, how little can find its way into the game with the next version.
Please don't get me wrong, I really like this game and I really appreciate the work that went into it and I really do thank each person working on this game by heart...but please, I don't see any sense in just giving you more and more work without any chance to see it come around. With limited resources you have to approach a project very differently. You have to start with very small integral parts and not with the whole picture.
Please consider my words again before jumping at me as I do not mean ill but I have to speak out if I think something is wrong.
So, now I'm ready to be torn apart.
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A dev may review everything ten times and still not foresee what players will say.
And for a player it will take ten times more time than it would for a dev to identify the problem, so that a dev can fix it.
Everyone knows that there are things only hundreds of different players can track.
People use to say that, only players can find out different things. It is because they are different people are have different methods and abilities to reach their goals. I'm a kind of person who find it very ineffective to use petition (because there is not even a copy&paste option in game) composing a bugreport is taking too much time with all you need to do for that. Make better use of the auto logging system. I player advice it to you, i think it is pretty much clear request? I can't give details, because i dont know how it exactly works, because I'm a player. Understand the player point of viev.
Understand it.
Now i sound like some kind of player rights freedom fighter, lol ;D
I can only repeat that
If an NPC mentions a person, an item, a place, etc, one should be allowed to tell the NPC "tell me about <[person|item|place|...]>"
Is what in appearently many players oppinion is what the devs have to focus on. It is developing the new content. IMO a dev browsing through NPCs answers to create new onese from these is taking exactly the same amount of time as looking through petitions or bugreports. Seriously.
But then again, coz I'm a player, i don't know details, but if we are told to do otherwise, it is nice to explain them to us, so we are convinced, because most of all, we are People, dev or not.
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IMO a dev browsing through NPCs answers to create new onese from these is taking exactly the same amount of time as looking through petitions or bugreports.
We have 463 bugs [open that i can see at this point] No one reviews all bugs each day, we review bugs as new ones are reported so that takes very little time overall. GM's only get a handful of petitions each day, they dont have to review what other gms did with closed petitions over the last month or week. Settings devs have 200 or more quests with many steps and answers for them to review them all would take MONTHS as they have other work to do and not all setting devs work directly with quests that are already loaded on laanx,
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@Kaityra: Please note that it's not enough to report and report. Quality of said reports matters. Just like you said there is a lot of work piling up so whenever you point something out, being specific helps a great deal. Sometimes fixes for these NPC things can be minor and quickly done but only if they are easy to find and that's where the players can help. They don't have to do anything different in the way they play the game, they just need to report what they find. And again, if you say "check everything", it is not as helpful as you might think.
@Nikodemus: If you don't like to use the BT or file petitions use /tell to ask a GM to look into it or go on IRC or send PMs/emails. Copy/paste works in all of the out-of-game channels.
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Off Topic (strictly speaking)
Hmm I do not have much trouble with the bug tracker. I have made a dozen or two reports and most of them have been fixed. Some are still pending of course and others not as fixed as I would like but all of them have been given some consideration by the development team. It is not particularly hard to use the bug tracker, the biggest difficulty lies in deciding which component the report is made about but this is a bit deceptive because if you get it wrong someone will change it to whatever is appropriate. It is all good to me.
There are other venues for offering suggestions and they also seem to work pretty well. I have made suggestions on the forum and through pms that have generated clearer dialog from npcs and additions to their repertoire.
For the most part, if I find something I think is a bug and do not see it on the bug tracker I go on #planeshift-build and ask if anyone there knows about it or if it seems likely to be expected behavior. If the response is negative, they haven't heard of it or feel it is unexpected I then post it to the tracker. If I am in doubt as to how to post it I can ask in that channel for advice. This may not work for everyone but if you politely approach the channel with a bit of caution you might just learn something.
Do not be annoyed if your report is closed with nothing done. It happens. Sometimes you have not made clear what was wrong and you will need to explain better. Other times it may be a philosophical difference of opinion. You can press your point of view within reason but it is the developers that have the last say. If you alienate them you may well be ignored in the future. They are all generally reasonable but anyone can have a bad day. If you keep your arguments about the game and not about the people involved with it you should get along fine. There does come a point, though, were further argument is useless. If you find you are making the same argument over and over and you are not getting anywhere it is time to give it up or join the developer team where your opinion will carry more weight or you will be able to get a more complete discussion of why it cannot be so. Some things cannot be shared unless you are covered by a non-disclosure agreement. It has never come to that for me so it needn't come to that for you either.
One more thing: very few people have direct access to the database and that is why they depend on reports about npc dialog and why it sometimes takes a while for things to change.
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We have 463 bugs [open that i can see at this point] No one reviews all bugs each day, we review bugs as new ones are reported so that takes very little time overall. GM's only get a handful of petitions each day, they dont have to review what other gms did with closed petitions over the last month or week.
I fail to see how it proves anything i asked about, how does the auto questions logging system works?
Settings devs have 200 or more quests with many steps and answers for them to review them all would take MONTHS as they have other work to do and not all setting devs work directly with quests that are already loaded on laanx,
Um, so because it would take MONTHS, they won't try to fix it, because they have to create new stuff (which will be done in probably the same fashion, it is subject for filling the holes)
You know, if everyone reported everything what is there for fixing, fixing that would take exactly these MONTHS.
We are trying to point it out there since a while, or you still dont agree? I would be happy to know why you think it would take less than these MONTHS is players would really report like mad.
@Nikodemus: If you don't like to use the BT or file petitions use /tell to ask a GM to look into it or go on IRC or send PMs/emails. Copy/paste works in all of the out-of-game channels.
Do you really think that /tell for a GM, IRC, PM/email is really working better than bugtracker??
Seriously, i'm not a moron, not that you treat me like one, but i dont know, maybe there are some people who find these ways faster than bugtracker. ;s
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@Nikodemus: If you don't like to use the BT or file petitions use /tell to ask a GM to look into it or go on IRC or send PMs/emails. Copy/paste works in all of the out-of-game channels.
Do you really think that /tell for a GM, IRC, PM/email is really working better than bugtracker??
Seriously, i'm not a moron, not that you treat me like one, but i dont know, maybe there are some people who find these ways faster than bugtracker. ;s
No. I'd rather have players use the BT but for those who don't like it or simply find it complicated to use, there are other channels available both in and out of the game to report bugs and inconsistencies with NPCs and quests.
So, not reporting these issues and using spoilers result in NPCs not getting any smarter.
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We have 463 bugs [open that i can see at this point] No one reviews all bugs each day, we review bugs as new ones are reported so that takes very little time overall. GM's only get a handful of petitions each day, they dont have to review what other gms did with closed petitions over the last month or week.
I fail to see how it proves anything i asked about, how does the auto questions logging system works?
Settings devs have 200 or more quests with many steps and answers for them to review them all would take MONTHS as they have other work to do and not all setting devs work directly with quests that are already loaded on laanx,
Um, so because it would take MONTHS, they won't try to fix it, because they have to create new stuff (which will be done in probably the same fashion, it is subject for filling the holes)
You know, if everyone reported everything what is there for fixing, fixing that would take exactly these MONTHS.
We are trying to point it out there since a while, or you still dont agree? I would be happy to know why you think it would take less than these MONTHS is players would really report like mad.
I am assuming you did not read what i was replying to, there is NO way to compare what the devs/ testers/gms do. We all do different things and have different ways of doing it. All setting devs have other things to do outside of the game, and not all think the same way and not all setting devs get to review all the quests before they get ingame to add replies to them. I dont see your point. The npc question reporting system only works if and when devs have time to get ingame and check, the system does not tell them if the question was in a quest or a general question, with so many npcs ingame in quests and not, it is hard for them to figure this out.
IMO a dev browsing through NPCs answers to create new onese from these is taking exactly the same amount of time as looking through petitions or bugreports.
We have 463 bugs [open that i can see at this point] No one reviews all bugs each day, we review bugs as new ones are reported so that takes very little time overall. GM's only get a handful of petitions each day, they dont have to review what other gms did with closed petitions over the last month or week. Settings devs have 200 or more quests with many steps and answers for them to review them all would take MONTHS as they have other work to do and not all setting devs work directly with quests that are already loaded on laanx,
I WILL NOT REPLY AGAIN YOU DONT SEEM TO SEE MY POINTS, any dev willing to back me on what i have said???
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The npc question reporting system only works if and when devs have time to get ingame and check, the system does not tell them if the question was in a quest or a general question, with so many npcs ingame in quests and not, it is hard for them to figure this out.
So a dev has to go in game to see the log? If so, thats madness. They should have an option to browse them in notepad, filtered so that it is readable. A table where they can see what was the last informative NPC response the player is most likely asking about and where the dev can read all answers of the NPC, quest responses, so they can know why players asked these questions and by this add proper triggers.
If there is only a list of sentences the npcs didn't understand without even the npc name they was asked to and it is available only after logging in game, it is connecting to our so unstable server... This feature is near useless :o
This pretty much explains why you and others insist people make bugreports and use other methods.
But here is a fact, if the logging system wont start to have a use, there won't be any progress. People will continue to behave as they are and you will receive the same amount of reports. This is how it works. This thread will maybe motivate a few people to make some reports, but there wont be any breakthrough, which will allow the devs to fill the NPCs dialog holes on much greater scale.
If a setting dev can't even look though the npc dialogs to see what things from it lack an explanation, without logging into the game... this is efficiency tragedy, seriously, it must be terrible.
It is the devs who should have easy access for these, because it is they who can viev and edit them in an efficiet way. It is not a player with a tiny chatwindow and 10 fps and who can't focus purely on the problems, because they have to play a mind game first of guessing if the NPC really doesnt know what is asked about and alike.
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That's nonsense. No one from settings needs to log into the game to view actual dialog.
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If so, thats madness.
(http://www.guildfailure.com/forums/images/avatars/877225324810db3b26131.jpg)
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If so, i'm in dead point, no conclussions, so the same oppinion.
Haha, good one Neko!.
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That's nonsense. No one from settings needs to log into the game to view actual dialog.
the command /badtext unless the webconsole has been updated only works ingame to find out bad replies said to npcs. Quests can be read and fixed in the console bye those with access. It also looks like /badtext only shows the last 10 bad text lines, so it could miss much.
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Some of the correct dialogue needed for solving is so remote, so impossible to guess without assistance, that making a big deal over any 'spoiler' seems foolish to me.
Provide Rizin with some examples. Watch what happens. Be part of the solution: don't proliferate what you see as a problem.
Heck, provide US with some examples. I'd love to see what you consider illogical.
First allow me to clarify. I did not say that the quests were illogical, but unable to be solved based on logic alone. For example, in 'Gorbiak wants to speak better', after starting the quest, the next step is to speak a statement in '[removed]'...something not available from other than someone else passing the information on to you. Or 'Sierann is Waiting'...one has to know to ask him '[removed]' to get things started....the only quest that starts in this manner as far as I know. Or Kilas' Test of Education...not sure where those answers came from, unless in some obscure book in the library.
It is true that most quests can be completed based on the information presented in them, but not all. For some, it seems you simply have to get help from somewhere. That is the point I was referring to.
I appreciate the efforts of all who have put this project together, and admire your talent and creativity. I do wish that the defensive tone which I have noted in these forums could be eliminated...there is nothing wrong with members expressing their opinions. Just disagree...as is your right.
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Good, back on topic, maybe this topic has been beaten to death, but I think a good goal for PS is to make the need for spoilers obsolete or mute, instead of trying to police web sites from posting them. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how that could be done. I always seem to come back to super computer AI or the more realistic one of keeping NPC quests a side event in PS. The more rewarding and character enhancing the NPC quests are, the more cheating and spoilers for quest discovery will occur. I think you guys have done a great job at making quests long and painful and really most of them are spoiler free. As long as you can't skip a part, ie. gain the item for NPC1 from NPC2 before you even speak to NPC1, then the work still needs to be done to complete the quest and it is spoiler free in my opinion. I'm at about 80 completed quests and have asked for help a few times, from other players, guild members and Rizin. I'm usually a word off and just got stumped on one riddle, but the quests have been more of a long roleplaying tutorial then a way to super level up my character. I think it should stay like that as I've gotten to know Yliakum pretty well through the quests and it isn't a bid deal if I can't finish one. I just move on to the next one. A lot of times the answer can come later.
One brain storm I have in helping to make a roleplaying game spoiler-free is to give more control to the community and not so much in the hands of the NPC. I think player-to-player quests should be developed more, that and dynamic NPC to multi-player quests, but that is for another time. I know, I know, everyone argues that guild masters will just give their members 3 gazillion experience points and trias for learning how to wave, but I think there is a way. If you can somehow have an infrastructure in place that can calculate the xp reward for a quest, then it can keep it in check. For example, a quality score can be calculated for the quest, just as a quality score is calcd in the creation of a dagger or shield. When the dagger is sold to a NPC, it has an idea of the "value" of the dagger, so XP can be calculated for the quest. Maybe the quest giver has to come up with the tria or the item for reward. Oh, oh, or the quest giver has to build up experience that they give out for quests, so they can only do one quest each week or so. Or heck, go with a no reward system for custom quests in the beginning, just to see how it would go. Custom quests are going on all the time now, but it'd be nice if they had an easier way to set them up and create the ambiance. Maybe D&D Online does this, but I wonder if the dungeon master in everyone will come out in PS if the custom quest is easy to execute in PS, following the rules and consistencies of Yliakum of course. I'm obviously talking out of my arse, with average programming experience I can't say whether this would work or how to do it, or maybe it already happened and it didn't work out. But one thing is constant in this world, the bigger the reward on quests, the more emphasis there is on quests, the more "cheating" and spoilers you'll see pop up and it'll get out of control, especially the day when PS hits 1 million users. PS seems to thrive on roleplaying and players want to make up their own stories and adventures, developing some tools for them may enhance the roleplaying world...
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The settings team is ahead of other teams on bug policing, that or the other methods advocated here are the proper way to get the changes you want made made.
Continued advice in this medium will be of little assistance to getting your problems fixed.
In terms of spoilers there is only Talad to say yay or nay.
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Or Kilas' Test of Education...not sure where those answers came from, unless in some obscure book in the library.
There aren't that many books in the library. And yes, some come from the library. Others come from action locations. Others come from NPC dialogues. The point is, it's a test of education. It's inviting you to go look stuff up in books and explore and get educated. Using a spoiler list is totally against the point. It's like being asked to do a research project and then just buying someone else's paper without researching it.
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Kilas' education quest were hard, but fun. Made me learn a lot about PlaneShift. If you use quest spoilers because you have problems with finding the correct formulations of the answers (but do know the answers yourself!), then I agree with the spoiler-er. However, always report the sentence the NPC didn't respond to, but you think it should, to Settings. If you use spoilers because a quest is "too hard" or "takes too long", then, well, do some other quest. Harnquist is always in need of apples.
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only quest i ever completed was giving Harn some apples. He's a hungry guy, that one. :D
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Perhaps most things are already said meanwhile, but since on the german forums there is that post of mine in the obviously wrong section, I feel pushed to add my opinion on this topic as well.
I also would like to accent, that some of the following points may not affect all the facts, but since we all should know about exceptions and rules.. also, I am aware of the developmental state at all, but I am also aware of only criticizm may bring changes - long story short: Dont be too much provoked! Only a little... lol=P As usual, dont take my stuff serious to death, huh?;)
Firstly, Fyre got a point there: Its not always logics, made for everyone, that quests base on, it also often enough requires good knowledge of the english language. More than one quest I would have never been able to solve without the help of natively english speaking fellars. Particularly thinking of a kran, poetry and some.. perhaps a figure of speech or whatever it is - I actually never understood the meaning of the resolving answer.
Oh, perhaps someone may have seen my post in the german forums: I in fact accidentally posted that in the wrong section (the public one), which I want to apologize for. On the other hand though its topic turned out to be a typo in the reply that had to be given in that quest (the quest actually contained 2 typos. Rizin fixed it though as she said).
Another point.. I cant agree on questing only the way it may be meant to be. With "meant to be" I presume being ic, taking decisions fitting the character, roleplaying. Considering that every certain shield-type would come from one certain NPC in Yliakum, and that this guy would have to have some huge storage house for only those shields, I would expect most people to agree on the game lacking sense there.
What I am aiming at though is, that I would post quest-solutions for my friends and me for the purpose we can quickly gather certain items, for in the end we can make up some different story about how one of our chars was given it or we can reward each other for self-made quests. Indeed, such a procedure lacks any ic'ishness of the character questing (=gathering the rewards), on the other hand though it provides the chance to tell new stories, instead of the always same and boring explanation of "xyz handed it to me because I helped him out with uvw", which again will be repeated by the next player.
An example given in another post, are glyphs. Besides only traders selling them, they also grow in nature. So why acquiring them only by consequent questing, being ic and taking the jobs others also had? Why not taking a quick quest, perhaps even fully ooc, and then come up with a played out innovative story about it for a change? Same way doing those quests oocly, they would be posted.
But however, one more point of view, which may contain some assumption on the reason for the restriction.
Forbidding spoilers to be published, wouldnt that take away responsibility off people? Shouldnt people be allowed to decide on their own wether to use them or not, instead of being parented?
With published quest-solutions massrecruiting guilds perhaps had less arguments to convince newbies to join, only for after some time getting used to an ooc way to play the game. With accessible quest-solutions a player could focus on his roleplay, and when getting frustrated by questing he could peek.
After all, would a passionated roleplayer have to be a passionated riddler and a very well english speaker as well for he can enjoy all parts of Planeshift?
I use quests the very most part for gathering more of Yliakum's background story. Taking quests icly I always find hard, since for example many many people had delivered some oh so urgent letter already. Needless to say that many NPCs would have to be considered rather stupid, lacking memory etc.. What I dont like about it is, that I need to run around, without really being able to do that icly. After a longer time of not questing anymore, I got back into it. My char as a hunter asks everyone in Gugrontid (a town surely not known for its leatherworkers) for jobs? Either my hunter cant find any prey anymore, no one buys his wares anymore, or I just cant see the sense in it. I made up some other reason, although it left me quite unsatisfied.
Long story short: After some intense time of roleplaying I now and then need to interrupt it for going into questing. I feel the need for that since I want to know more about the interesting stories added, interesting they undoubtly are! Questlogs could change that: Information for everyone!
Few times I rushed quests for only gathering the reward, because I needed it to make up some story to be played out. Most of the time I read questlogs, even when I never did the quests. Hm.. so now I do disappoint UtM? So what? As long as there will be items included that are only accessible by rather unrealistical and unnatural ways ("Only some believer kran having a certain helm type, not one trader around though?"), added the lack of implemented ways (like glyphs should spawn randomly according to the setting), I surely wont change that habit.
Sadly I never had any impression that would ever change, Holy Helms, Wands.. - that could take away the l33t-element off the game ;)
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By using spoilers instead of calling attention to the problems players perpetuate the game's troubles.
I don't wanna hear the rpers try to make it the case that they need spoilers because we don't provide them with easy access to props and argue that quests too favor plers.
According to many rpers everything they cannot type into existences is a burden to their play experience.
I do not want the point to be missed again. We need the help of the players via the bugtracker and the other means we have provided for you to give us usable feedback.
Speaking exclusively for settings team:
We have good people dedicated to adding triggers.
We do not want to be told how to work by the "wise" people who do not work with us every day or understand the pressures we face.
We do not want the puzzles we struggle to make to be laid bare for any nubcake with the dream of having a hand glyph to be able to just run and grab without thinking about the actions he/she takes along the way.
We do not want people to treat quests as a minor imposition on the way to go and get needed props for a "far superior" rp involving thousand eyed shadows that slurp your soul and make gods of peasants.
We do not want quest information displayed in a way that anyone who wants to may simply copy all our ideas tricks puzzles and rewards and reuse them for their own ends without giving anything to advance planeshift in any way in return.
We want to help the game advance and we want players to help us with the streamlined means we have provided them to do so.
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We do not want people to treat quests as a minor imposition on the way to go and get needed props for a "far superior" rp involving thousand eyed shadows that slurp your soul and make gods of peasants.
Noted.
However, I didnt mean to sound offending.
As usual you devs got your view on things - case closed for me.
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Please forgive me my ignorance in case it's already mentioned somewhere.
But WHAT exactly is the best way to report Quest-related issues (eg on the bugtracker) without giving too much information about the quest? (eg origin/name/phrase/etc)
i agree with the previously proposed in-game "tool" of /reportquestbug (or whatever). Those who play in fullscreen will find it annoying to exit PS, report the bug, then start PS again.
Sorry for being :offtopic:
Concerning the "German Community", well, it's hard to say.. I, for myself don't use any spoilers unless I am really certain that I do have the right answer. And this can indeed take quite some time for the more tough riddles which I really like! How great a feeling it is to come up with the answer without any help. I do help - to some extent - if someone is really stuck.. but I deny to give some "whole solution" without having them think. And no, my guild page doesn't contain any quest spoiler (aka there you get that, or say that to that guy - whatever). (maybe that makes it hard to keep people? :P ...well, there's nothing to steal, why should they join? *chuckles* but probably I should be glad to not offer such a thing, and I, - indeed - am fond of those few fellows I have.)
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Please forgive me my ignorance in case it's already mentioned somewhere.
But WHAT exactly is the best way to report Quest-related issues (eg on the bugtracker) without giving too much information about the quest? (eg origin/name/phrase/etc)
i agree with the previously proposed in-game "tool" of /reportquestbug (or whatever). Those who play in fullscreen will find it annoying to exit PS, report the bug, then start PS again.
report as much as possible on the tracker without giving too much, the bug will be made private and you can then add the rest after that.
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report as much as possible on the tracker without giving too much, the bug will be made private and you can then add the rest after that.
Which makes it a bigger effort to report quest bugs.
- Report some littly information without providing too much
- save the url
- write down or remember the additional information
- wait till it got marked private and look at it occasionally
- add the rest of the information
I think that's too much for most players. Yet it's very important that quest-bugs get reported. Maybe a "report bug" in the quest window which saves additional information like "current state", "which exact quest" etc, plus the option to provide additional info, maybe even "provided answers so far" - would be very handy for both the lazy players/testers and the settings team.
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The bugtracker is here:
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/
Inconsistencies between settings assets should go here:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28285.0
Places where npcs are stupid or there are insufficient triggers should go here:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29353.0
Problems with quests can go to Rizin here:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=30268
If you are too lazy to hit alt + tab to do any of these things while in game you can use the petition system in game
(which I think should be a last resort as it is basically forcing gms to do work that you as the tester should take responsibility for)
All of this info is stickied in the forum and iterated elsewhere in this thread, but to simplify, it is all in this post now.
I think this post, the stickies, the report feature, the bug tracker, and any new feature advocated in this thread would be avoided for the same reasons the current tools are not used: people are slothful by nature and players do not view themselves as testers. People do not seem to realize their effort is needed to promote the game's advancement. Please don't treat the devs/gms/testers as costumer service this is a community effort.
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We do not want to be told how to work by the "wise" people who do not work with us every day or understand the pressures we face.
Noone "told" anyone what to do, everyone adviced only. It is good to remember that only a few of the players who are expected to bugreport posted there. All the other people who maybe don't even care to post at the forums will eighter go bugreporting as we are all adviced, or more probable, IMO they will do nothing at all, but playing game against the popular statement that we are testers. The majority of people play, not test. IMO it is a good idea to take advantage of that instead of waiting till they get conviced to bugreport.
IMO it is in 95% up to he devs, the small 5% belongs to the players who do not really work with you every day or understand the pressures you face. What will you do with the 95% is all up to you, you can kind of alienate and tell us what to do or try developing with the "wise" people, near developing for them.
I could take every word of a dev as holy without discussing, but it is leading to nowhere but stagnacy and with stagnacy there is no progress. My father uses to say that if there is no progress you are in fact going backwards. I could also stop holding myself and feel offended and in fact i would if i wasn't caring, but I also can't discuss this publicly, because it is forbidden on these boards or at least not a good idea, but I'm nearly always open for discussion, privately, because obviously not here.
About BT.
make bugs marked as quest private automatically uppon submitting, simple, but then again this will convice maybe 0.1% of people for quest bugreporting.
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Nikodemus, your advice was not helpful (not anything we have not already looked at and not pertinent to the discussion at hand at all) and further you have ignored my admonitions and foisted the problem back on us. Systemically people are arguing in favor of the lazy way: use the spoiler, get the treat.
I ask that everyone realize the game does not come from the ether, it comes from the hard work of some dedicated people.
If I have no right to expect better of the players than to simply consume the game as a finished product and therefore complain, and "suggest" how to improve things from outside the tent, I have no real interest in working with that sort of use oriented community.
If the testers want the game's progression to be a dialog, I ask that the testers learn the language the developers have established to most effectively process their advice.
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heres the bottom line folks: you use a spoiler, you delay game development.
if you can live with that, so be it. but you're never seeing the official forums/ site link to any sites that promote public spoiler sharing.