PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: MustangMR on April 28, 2008, 06:56:30 pm
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Okay, few things about this thread....
You say over and over this is the SETTINGS thread, but what you're really talking about is lore, not settings. Maybe it's a language barrier issue, but settings in English games almost always refer to game mechanics and the game engine itself, the parameters it's going to operate under and present data to you in. I understand you're looking at from the setting of the environment and culture, but when we use that kind of setting, its singular, like the setting of the scene of a play. When we use plural form, then it implies setting of a bunch of options. It's very rare to hear settings plural in the way you're using it, and then needs to be backed up with some nouns on what the settings are for. I almost didn't bother coming here for that reason because I thought this thread was just about features that may be broken or something like that.
When we discuss the types of things you're asking for, we almost always use the term lore to describe the world we are going to be playing in. The lore of a world is it's history, it's people, what they believe, what they don't believe, how they work together, how their cultures came into being, etc... That is much more appropriate for what you are asking for.
Again, I'm not trying to be mean because I know this is really a very international game and that's fantastic, but it is written mostly in English, and the question was asked that way, so I thought I would draw that distinction. Probably too late to change, but there it is.
Second, you say many times that things are explained in game already. I don't disagree with that, but where? Does anyone tell me when I ask something dumb like, "oh, go talk to that guy because he knows all that stuff" or things like that? What I see to my poorly phrased questions are "I'm sorry, I don't understand you". So if I had to answer the basic question, it's that I'd like more knowledge in game about who the NPC's are and what they can do or explain, and then have it backed up in game. I had a few people tell me I need to read a books for a skill, but I have no clue where to get books. No one in the library has any. And someone told me I had to put a book in my "mind" slot.... I about fell over cause I had no idea that was how that worked. There wasn't even a tooltip to tell me where my mind slot it, though I think I know.
Bottom line, if all this info is in game, how about a little guidance on getting to it? I know the fun is in discovering it, but lets face it, you can't ask every question to every NPC in the game, and running around playing 20 questions with every NPC can be pretty frustrating. Something should guide us along somehow.
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Lore, history, settings .. all just words. Labels we put on things. Technically you're probably right and you're also right about this game being international so not all of us are natively english. Though you obviously understand what's meant by 'settings' here, as does everyone else. I don't see a point in suddenly causing confusion by changing an established name into something else.
Guide to get settings info:
- Read the information on www.planeshift.it.
- Read in-game books.
- Talk to NPCs and do their quests.
- Keep in touch with certain forum topics like this one.
It's a game within the game to discover detailed information about Yliakum's history and cultures.
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Alright, to be more constructive, here are some ideas on resolving some issues with PS.
First, you simply have a big inconsistency in what you describe in your documentation and what players are experiencing. Supposedly, we're in a big stalactite, okay, but it's been pointed out that the game doesn't even begin to feel like that, yet development keeps going on in the path it's going. One discrepancy I see is just the fact that you describe our crystal world as being underground, yet when I look up to the sky... I see just that, sky. How about texturing the sky with a cave roof? And make the crystal the focus of the sky and don't vaguely obscure it behind clouds. This seems a rather simple change to make as it's just texturing and a little lighting, which you've already done.
If the answer is that Crystal Space won't support your graphics needs, then perhaps you should have chosen a graphics engine that would have, or change your settings to coincide with the technology you chose to render the world in. You can always change it later if you need to.
Second, why is there a ruined temple? We're in a stalactite, so everything is underground by default and supposedly below us is a thriving world that we'll get to see someday. So why is the first layer a ruined area? If you're stuck underground, and you have only so much space to grow into, why would anyone abandon an area? Again, cool idea in alpha, not in-line with what you're saying. If there was a ruined temple anywhere, it seems it would be on a path to the surface before we realized that we didn't want to go there. This temple should be active, and lead to deeper things.
I read a bit about government and the Octarchs, but don't feel anything about it in game. It just seems wrong. The only government building I see is a small little box that I'm warned not to go near. So what I suggest, is that you, the developers, role play the government, the "Vigesimi", or draft players you feel understand your vision to fill those positions. Set them up with a small courtroom. Give each of them a personal assistant who stands to the side of their chair that can respond to questions about the city and how it works when they're not there or out playing the game. They can hold court at their discretion, and players will eventually begin to recognize them in game.
Then, write your settings on the web page to tell everyone who comes here who those players are and where the courtroom is, so everyone in game knows them and treats them as government people responsible for the city and it's inhabitants. The RP'ers could get tons of mileage out of that. The less RP'ing crowd would have someplace to go to get some answers. And you'd start bringing your lore inline with your game. Mention it in the tutorial.
The key point I'm trying to make is that you are in alpha stages of development. You had an idea to start with, now you're trying to implement that idea. You are stuck with these inconsistencies that you need to deal with, but you should also consider your settings alpha though. Modify your settings to match what the game can do. My frustration here is that over and over I feel like I'm being told the emperor has clothes, but he's standing there naked, and I'm just supposed to imagine he does. You can keep your overall vision and let it come closer to it as your game gets closer to doing what you want.
Either that or you're going to have to realize that you are not building the game you're describing, and dump either what you've built or what you're writing. That is the challenge of getting out of Alpha stage into beta, and every program goes through these questions of matching requirements vs. implementation. Right now, the developers don't' seem to be creating what the vision is requiring.
Sorry if I'm missing key points. I see a lot of potential here, but just saying that you're in alpha is not always a reason for discrepancies in your plan. If you don't want to develop forever, you need to start bringing your game in line with what your settings.
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offtopic posts split from the other thread.
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What are you really saying MustangNR? The game's settings are not manifest through mechanics so we should write settings to match mechanics?
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(...)I read a bit about government and the Octarchs, but don't feel anything about it in game. It just seems wrong. The only government building I see is a small little box that I'm warned not to go near. So what I suggest, is that you, the developers, role play the government, the "Vigesimi", or draft players you feel understand your vision to fill those positions. Set them up with a small courtroom. Give each of them a personal assistant who stands to the side of their chair that can respond to questions about the city and how it works when they're not there or out playing the game. They can hold court at their discretion, and players will eventually begin to recognize them in game.(...)
Actually, there's an Octarch in-game, as well as a Vigesimi. Perhaps you should explore a little more before addressing the depths of the game settings. One thing is to share your first impressions but if you want to give constructive criticism regarding the direction of the game it's a good idea to get to know well that which you think should change. Go to the libraries, talk to NPCs, try some quests. Nobody will have all the information in their face the minute they enter the game world, just like IRL. Interaction with the world gives you access to it.
:detective:
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We barely have time to work on the client sometimes, and you want us in-game to "govern"? :P Besides, players cannot roleplay any government official - they have not the tools to enforce any rules, nor the extensive knowledge of those rules (some of which still need to be written) to play a convincing part. This suggestion has been made before, so if you're interested in reading some past arguments, definitely give it a search in the Wishlist.
How about texturing the sky with a cave roof? And make the crystal the focus of the sky and don't vaguely obscure it behind clouds
The "sky" is far enough from the groundplane that you won't see cavern walls directly. There are clouds (as evidenced by our occasional rainfall), but as you go deeper down the levels, it will get darker and more cave-like. I greatly dislike our current skydome textures as well, so I agree that they should be made better. Just not entirely the way you envision, I think.
[...] change your settings to coincide with the technology you chose to render the world in.
And as CrystalSpace develops that technology, what do our setting members write? That "suddenly" all these things are now possible and the appearance of the world changes without reason, or some obscure reason that is forced onto the community and changes all their roleplay? People are more than willing to adapt right now and forgive us for not having next-gen graphics ;) There's no reason to nitpick like this, really.
Second, why is there a ruined temple? We're in a stalactite, so everything is underground by default and supposedly below us is a thriving world that we'll get to see someday. So why is the first layer a ruined area?
The first level is most definitely not a "ruined area" :] The majority of it is thriving farmland, due to the closeness of the Crystal and presence of its light. A few ruins to signify past occupancy do not destroy this image. Sure, we can make everything farms right now - but I'd prefer some visual variety at first, too. Most of the graphics right now are those of standing and populated structures.
I understand how frustrating it can be to play in an unfinished world, but what else can we do but go on building it? Instead of choosing "This isn't finished yet - let's change it" we go with "This isn't finished yet - let's finish."
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First, the light of the Crystal is more towards the blue visible and infrared invisible (to some races) parts of the spectrum. The roof of the cavern is comprised of materials that reflect the prominent blue wavelength and absorb the others. The cracks and textures are there, they are just kilometers away, so not greatly obvious. The textures and lighting will be improved in time, just as everything else will be. But that is Art and Engine, not Settings. ;)
Second, there is a ruined temple for a reason. There are many ruined things, and they all have a reason. Even the hills and ridges have a reason. The reason for the hills is given in an ingame book. The reason for the ruins... is still a secret hidden from characters (and players). The plot thickens...
The government issue is valid, but not something high on the list of 'needs to be done right now'. We do not want to put any 'placeholders' in for something that important until we have supporting systems. Look at how people treat the guards now. Most people see them as useless ornaments and RP them as inept. Would you have the government seen the same way? Once again, that is an Engine issue, and Engine is working on more important bugs and systems right now.
The points you have noted do not say to me that the game envisioned is not the one being built. It is taking small steps towards that end, even if it does not seem like it.
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How about texturing the sky with a cave roof?
Done.
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6683/shot21nr8.th.jpg) (http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6683/shot21nr8.jpg)
Well, it has been that way since years. But I must confess that it isn't that obvious - especially if one doesn't know that we do live in a stalagmite. And often it's even less obvious. (eg at darker times)
[edit: I still agree that it can be better. Probably one of the few things which is used on all (or almost all) maps, yet it has never been improved and even new maps use that one.]
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One thing that this thread makes me think of is that the lighting is not all that accurately depicted. Certainly at full brightness the effects of the blue tinge from the crystal will be less significant as the blue approximates white but at lower levels the reds should trend through purple, the greens through aquamarine, and the whites through navy into indigo and finally black. I tried to show this here:
(http://web.ncf.ca/cr502/ps/4/muted_spectrum.png)
It seems the light sources used to light up the world are all white. All greys should be bluish. Now the way I created this picture was to take a full saturation spectrum gradient and impose a ~40% transparency blue layer with a hard light filter on top of it but it serves to illustrate my point.
This is the base layer:
(http://web.ncf.ca/cr502/ps/4/spectrum.png)
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Sorry for :offtopic:
but I had to give the sky a try. The azure sun looks like an UFO now ;D
(http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/1241/shot23qs7.th.jpg) (http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/1241/shot23qs7.jpg)
@Prolix: I am sure that the light does make things look different as we know it. However, our chars are used to it. Most of them never saw any different "sun".
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Actually, there's an Octarch in-game, as well as a Vigesimi.
Truth be told, there are three Vigesimi implemented as characters, and all 20 are outlined in in-game books. (I think those books are now available. It's certainly been written.)
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Oops, I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was echoed here. I was talking with Zan offline about this and didnt' realize it had been moved here.
Again, I am trying to be constructive, and no, I don't think just because I post it something is going to change and I'm going to go over in a corner and cry about it. These are impressions of the game, and I know enough about this game to have some history of how it's been developed. I was here for the crystal hunt. You have basically been demonstrating technology for the past four or five years. Crystal Space didn't even go final till a year or so ago (don't hit me on time lines, I blink and year goes by anymore), so yes, some changes to game may be required.
But I stand by most of what I wrote. See, you can explain the issue all you want here, but here isn't in game. It doesn't feel like anything you are describing. When I read the descriptions of the world you are proposing, I expect to walk into a dreary game. We're an underground race. If the crystal is the main source of light, and it would be in an underground setting, then the world should be colored. It's not. It is rendered with white light, something the crystal is not said to be doing, and everything looks identical to other games with normal sun lighting. The texture of the cave roof looks barely different from a sky with clouds.
I did read all the books in the library. There's not much more there than there is on the web site, except they introduced the concept of the Dome, which I assume is the cave roof. And, everything that was originally stated as fact (we live in a stalactite) is now theory, where maybe we don't live in a stalactite and the holes are just holes and well heck, throw that theory out and maybe Laanx and Talad don't exist either. So the history and culture is changing to match what is happening in game. (sorry if that is too much info, but I'm sure it's all subject to change). From the replies here and the books in the library, it really feels like the game is changing into something different, though i could be wrong.
And the temple ruins below the temple of Laanx still seem out of place for the history of the world that exists. It's not old enough to have had an entire culture develop, build a temple, and abandon it to ruin while another temple is built above it after millenia of dirt have covered it up. And if the world is a stalactite, then you're really carving it out the rock.
But those are minor quibbles guys. Things an engineer like me looks at and says "what the...". There are many many more I'm seeing, but I figured those are the most glaring ones. Take em or leave em, I don't care.
The suggestion to roleplay the government is just for fun. You say this game is all about roleplaying, but I really don't see much going on. People seem really good at roleplaying bar patrons, but I been there done that in real life, don't need to RP it. Put some money where your mouth is. Roleplay REAL roles. Take ownership of the game and be the characters you write about. The suggestion for placeholders was just because I never expected you to just sit in one place every day all day long, so you would have an assistant who could answer basic questions when you were out, you know, the one with all the red tape. ;)
Anyway, don't read this as a "though must do as I say" post. It was never intended that way. I do see a split between the development side and the settings side. Based on what I've been told to read (books in game, website), I don't even see consistency between the website and the books in game, so yes, everything has to be considered alpha. This is nothing new and you shouldn't be afraid of changing things to resolve issues. Every singe software development program out there has gone through requirements changes as you move from concept to alpha to beta and final. Many companies throw out technology demonstrations all together before they even enter alpha stage, and most of what you have so far is tech demo. No, you aren't those companies and you shouldn't be expected to throw out everthing, but some evolution should be expected on everyones part, the players too.
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When I read the descriptions of the world you are proposing, I expect to walk into a dreary game. We're an underground race. If the crystal is the main source of light, and it would be in an underground setting, then the world should be colored. It's not. It is rendered with white light, something the crystal is not said to be doing, and everything looks identical to other games with normal sun lighting. The texture of the cave roof looks barely different from a sky with clouds.
I'm sure the world where there Azure Sun doesn't reach is dreary, or should be really modelled like that. I think the few underground places we have aren't that bad. Colored world? It should have azure colored light, yes. Hydlaa had it once and then some people complained without understanding wtf and it is back white. The lighting is broken here and there and probably noone can find time to fix that as they are bsy without other things and hope to fix the lighting later also when CS will be better.
I gues it's what we can expect to see in an alpha stage game.
The sky texturing/lighting is very bad, yeah, but it is mainly because the texture is low resolution. You can't have anything better with that resolution. Probably to stay on the same performance level, it won't change. It is blue with rock shapes coming out of it because it is far away, just like when everything far away in mountains is blue.
But those are minor quibbles guys. Things an engineer like me looks at and says "what the...". There are many many more I'm seeing, but I figured those are the most glaring ones. Take em or leave em, I don't care.
I agree the game has small thought from the enginering side and the setting team doesn't feel about putting a lot efford into it, though of course there is some small thought, but maybe i was talking to much with the wrong people. Some pool showed it is what the majority of the voters wanted - more thought into the aspect. We will see.
Its alpha, beta, or whatever. Probably why I don't play much and try developing more.
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As far as the ruins go the 700-odd years is plenty of time for, say, the black flame to build up a large settlement and have it get destroyed, depopulated and leave only ruins. Consider Louisbourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Louisbourg) in Cape Breton, a rebuilt ruin of a mere 300-odd years -- 18th century. It has been stated somewhere on these forums that the rationale for those ruins are not yet explained in the game.
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Yeah, but we didn't lose the history of those settlements either. If these are mysterious ruins, then we would have to have forgotten they were there, and these are some pretty deep ruins. A long time would have had to pass to cover them up and forget who and why they were built. Maybe 700 years is enough. I would tend to think based on the setting that it would have had to have been much longer.
Back on the textured dome and lighting. Yeah, I could see where people would complain if the lighting was too dramatic, mainly because you have technical issues with darkness. Maybe it could be solved much easier by renaming the crystal and dealing with it in the physics of the world instead of trying to make the game match it. One thought I had would be to have the crystal pulsate over time (long periods, don't need strobe lights everywhere) where it changes color depending on the seasons. A typical white light approach in Summer, maybe a bluish hue in Winter, greenish in spring, gray in fall. Explain it by saying the crystal is in tune with the seasons of the surface world... where ever that is.... another one of those HUGE areas you're going to have to work out sooner or later. Nothing dramatic either, just subtle shadings to match what is being written.
And the texture... well, be it as it may. I just think if the setting is a huge underground cavern in the middle of a massive stalactite, it would be much different than a cloud filled sky. Nuff said.
Did someone mention farming on the top level? So where are the farms? :) (don't bother, we know they're coming).
But again, just discussing and throwing ideas out. I am just going on because when I first read about PS I thought there was something unique here, but it seems to be taking a much more traditional MMORPG approach. Lots of time to see it come back though. Still 7 more levels to go. \\o//
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Changing the setting to match what the engine or art team can currently do, is completely illogical in a game at this stage of development - you have a setting and you build it, instead of building blindly and forming explanations after. Yes, not all the graphics match up right now. But the team is here to improve them.
With that said, I really cannot understand what you seem to want...
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niko show me the fracking poll where anyone favors focusing on engineering please.
I do not want to see your personal agenda carried out through your post if it is to bear with it an insinuation that your view is the global view.
I don't have an engineer on my team and I think it is overkill to focus as much as you do on "engineering."
MustangNR what in the heck are you asking for? Do you read my replies at all? Why do you draw some linguistic distinction between settings and lore?
Settings Team as regards PS is Lore and More.
a la http://devcast.ps-mc.net/?p=5
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Back to those ruins:
Freely speculating here, a luxury I can afford because I am not on the development team nor under an NDA. If indeed those ruins were a Black Flame stronghold, they may very well have been brought low by the actions of one or more gods and their obscurity may be mandated by heaven as well. Add to that the strong ties of the Black Flame to Chaos and entropy could have reduced them far quicker than would be expected. As far as we know they could just be the physical representation of their extent in this plane and once you manage to enter them you find yourself in a chaotic realm unlike any other.
I am not suggesting this is the plan for them, just that such an explanation would be consistent with the setting as far as I can tell.
I believe this discussion is really to try to pick out the whole from the incomplete set of the parts and to try to spur consideration of what new parts might need to look like to complete the picture as intended. In that it would seem similar to my thread about Thorian. Perhaps my comprehension is erroneous.
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The simple answer for those "ruins" you identify is this: They are not done being developed.
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Show 'em Xillix :D
I really don't see much point in free speculation at such an early stage. I mean, if you want to plan out the complete history of Yliakum, just join the settings team and actually implement it. Don't coach from the stands.
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niko show me the fracking poll where anyone favors focusing on engineering please.
I do not want to see your personal agenda carried out through your post if it is to bear with it an insinuation that your view is the global view.
That would be my posts i gues. Aww, i was just looking for that pool by skimming through the first 10 pages of genneral discussion and failed >o)
Deleted? Moved? Dreamed it up? ;D I hope not, heh.
Engineering covers really a lot of aspects. If someone asks for it, it is mostly about simple things you spot with the first glance of eye. I think noone of the pointing out focus on anything complicated.
If there is noone in the team with some knowledge about these matters, why won't you setting guys and girls listen to advices instead of discouraging people for being creative and trying to help? No need for taking everything as offences or malice arguing.
[mods edit: using the quote ability and then changing the user's original words makes me an angry moderator. don't do it. --neko]
[The above is unjustified edit as I didn't change the quoted text in any way. It is the author of the quoted text who changed it afterwards i quoted it, what is really easy for figuring out. At least should be simpler than throwing accusations. --niko]
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There are a couple of things to consider Niko, for one I find much of what you advise to be A) Vague or B) Impossible.
If you want to grant advice in the constructive sense join one of our departments and work to build things that adhere to your sense of "engineering."
I am certain that we have a language barrier hurting our ability to understand each other.
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What do I want? I thought I wanted free and open discussion. Now... meh. :-X
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um . . . mustangnr what are you talking about?
Seriously, you discussed some things; I asked a question. Now you respond with some sort of echo of poor Dennis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434)
Come see the violence inherent in the system!
Give it a rest.
Don't play the victim.
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There is no stifling or censoring of any discussion here - you're free to bring up any topic you want. It appears as though we do not agree on some points, and there is some confusion floating around on what some of those points are. Nevertheless, disagreement does not equal to irresolute stubbornness. If an idea or proposal is shot down, there is a reason for it.
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I'd rather just play. This is getting too frustrating.
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All I am seeing is Dev: "This is why things are the way they are. There will be more as we build it." You: "No, that is not good enough."
Consider the Crystal to be a big florescent light. Your eyes adjust when you are in that light for a long time, self adjusting the colors. Why does the sky look blue? Maybe the gods made it that way to remind the races or themselves of above ground worlds. Maybe it is is because the Dome is made out of BLUE rock. Maybe it is because of gases clinging to the cavern roof that block the other colors and refract only blue. Maybe it is because Yliakum atmosphere is a lot Earth. How so? Let me demonstrate through the magic of pictures.
Why do the hills in this picture look blue in the distance while looking green in the foreground?
(http://thetrailbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/carbonate-mountain-from-della-mtn-hailey-idaho.jpg)
Why do the further mountains look more blue in this picture. In fact, why do they look blue at all when once you get up close they are not blue?
(http://www.artgamestudio.com/screenshots/mountain_forest.jpg)
Oh look, MORE blue mountains that are not really blue.
(http://www.eaglemountainbb.com/images/mountain_2.jpg)
The cavern roof is at -least- as far away at those pictures. Figure it out.
The ruins are there because Yliakum's past is not all sunshine and roses. Bad things happened. In a society such as Yliakum has with 98% peasants, the past is very easily forgotten... or buried.
If you want to roleplay a government official, go ahead. You will quickly find out why it can not be done without GM powers to back you up. And if one does use GM powers... that does not turn out well either. There is not a good system in place to handle a government of any kind besides the token NPCs we have now. Any attempt at a 'real' government presence right now would be half baked.
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moony's post makes me wish "the joy of painting" with bob ross was still on the air.
:whistling:
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We could use more happy little trees. :(
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I'd rather just play. This is getting too frustrating.
A novel idea.
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Well, something to do at least while waiting to figure out if my character is broke beyond repair:
All I am seeing is Dev: "This is why things are the way they are. There will be more as we build it." You: "No, that is not good enough."
What part of "minor quibbles" did you not get?
Consider the Crystal to be a big florescent light. Your eyes adjust when you are in that light for a long time, self adjusting the colors. Why does the sky look blue? Maybe the gods made it that way to remind the races or themselves of above ground worlds. Maybe it is is because the Dome is made out of BLUE rock. Maybe it is because of gases clinging to the cavern roof that block the other colors and refract only blue. Maybe it is because Yliakum atmosphere is a lot Earth. How so? Let me demonstrate through the magic of pictures.
....
The cavern roof is at -least- as far away at those pictures. Figure it out.
Yet none of those pictures have anything to do with living in a giant carved out stalactite with a crystal light incapable of producing the range of colors you describe. What part of:
(http://www.planeshift.it/guide/images/yliakum_map.jpg)
are you seeing in those pictures?
The ruins are there because Yliakum's past is not all sunshine and roses. Bad things happened. In a society such as Yliakum has with 98% peasants, the past is very easily forgotten... or buried.
If I lived in a normal world on the surface, yes, but we don't. We live in a giant stalactite carved out of solid rock. You have enough trouble even figuring out where the dirt came from let alone enough to cover entire temple ruins. Who carved the ruined temple before the Temple of Laanx was built on top of it? If Laanx was in on carving the stalactite, and her temple was built right on the very spot where these ruins were found.... who carved them? They would have had to have been in the stalactite before Laanx and Talad carved the whole area, and that doesn't make sense given what has been told. I've been told it was 700 years time frame. I don't see it in the descriptions though, just generalized terms of Epoch's, which no definition is given for. It's just something odd that struck me as I was trying to resolve all the info. It just felt like this is something that was done in alpha as a cool idea but no one gave it thought for how it fit into the big picture. Maybe there is an easy lore solution, I'll leave it to others to figure out.
If you want to roleplay a government official, go ahead. You will quickly find out why it can not be done without GM powers to back you up. And if one does use GM powers... that does not turn out well either. There is not a good system in place to handle a government of any kind besides the token NPCs we have now. Any attempt at a 'real' government presence right now would be half baked.
Obviously, Foo. Which is why when I originally posted this, it was to the settings people, people who are good at communicating and would have the developers to listen to them. They are the ones responsible for creating the atmosphere of the game and would have the skills to pull this off correctly. Zan moved it here, something that in hindsight may have been a mistake, but it's my fault for not focusing the post a bit more. We also had a very good conversation on the side about these topics and I won't put any words in her mouth other than to say she dealt with my newbish enthusiasm much better than most of you are. If there are any differences in my opinion and hers, she is right and I am wrong, period, end of story. She earned my respect. You? :thumbdown:
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A simple question to you. If you think you are so good at that stuff, why don't you apply for the settings department and see how they work and try to get your ideas in?
No seriously, you complain a lot about the game and it's settings, so go ahead and apply...We will see how good you are at solving the "issues" you mentioned
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Unbelievable. Your sig doesn't do you justice. And you contributed to this discussion... how???
I've been hanging out on game forums for 10-15 years now discussing ideas with other gamers. I've been in your shoes before, the veteran of the game. I've even reviewed published gaming material for professional developers for my contributions to the forums. I would never attack newbs the way you guys do. And you're part of the development team, I assume? Gee, where do I sign up. :@#\
Time to lock this thread. I've tried to get out of it, but they keep wanting a fight, and I'm just not one to run from one.
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i'm not part of the development team. my suggestion was meant seriously, apply for the settings department. You will learn there how things are done and you can contribute to the game with all the ideas you have.
I did not mean to attack you, neither to start a fight with you. You do have good ideas, imho, but the way you put them most of the time are complaints and rants how this game sucks for you...anyway, try and apply
PS: check the main site for the requirements and for the link to sign up :)
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Mustang, there are your credentials. You sound perfect for the settings team. Stop wasting time and just go sign up.
By the way, NO ONE attacks devs the way YOU do. (except maybe zanzibar...)
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IMO too some of your thinking is good, MMR, but other ideas are known nah in this community and that's not because someone said so, but because there are good logical reasons for that. Just like with the "sky". Why is it blue? UtM explained it yet another time to yet another person. Why was you under impression it sould look grey and rocky? Because most new people to planeshift don't realise that.
Should experienced people in this comminity help out newbies to find out these things over and over again? IMO yes, but with limits. If a new person come up with questions and ideas of which 50% is known nay nay, then you can expect the people who usually help out by explaining, to ignore you, ask you to search or just be very annoyed if they woke up in bad mood.
But as you know more and more, maybe you come up with something new and maybe devs think about implementing it when they see you have put really much good thought into it.
Although it is a bit discouraging when you hear your ideas are vague or impossible and when you see the game would gain good amount of climate. But then maybe more thought can be put into it and improved wording used, though this shouldn't be one sided efford.
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Niko you can't help yourself can you?
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/me casts "calming winds" on the thread.......
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Alright, one last one.
I apologize to the entire development team if it the impression I have been giving is attacking. I said over and over in this thread that I did not consider my comments to be critical, nor did I care if I was wrong, and it was completely ignored. I am allowed to have my opinions, and on some of these subjects, they are just opinions and pure speculation, something I'm used to doing on other sites where we often debate issues like this. This sites rules on restricting information from the players is not something I'm used to. I have had a couple cynical posts about that in my short time here, but I have also defended the developers right to do what they dang well please in many other posts. In the future, I will consider my posts more carefully.
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dang, what did i say wrong again? xD I thought i was being helpful and then honest, i mean't that i can put more efford into what i'm saying and i'm hoping it to be always twosided.
*In this very moment Niko is thinking for some good minutes if it is better to say nothing or try to understand isuue.*
I think i'm kind of person who can't stand unresolved matters and need to know answer.
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MustangNR I still have absolutely no clue what exactly it is that you WANT, so instead of saying "I am used to bla bla bla" and throwing your hands in the air in frustration, why don't you try to focus on one issue and see if you can be more specific.
Please read my posts fully.
Please do not take people suggesting you join the team as them blowing you off, take it as an earnest encouragement.
Niko, instead of decrying the fact that I have said your ideas are vague or impossible, why don't you try to make clear and precise requests about specific areas for improvement.
I am rapidly losing all faith in my ability to communicate. There is no opposition here to ideas whatsoever, we just ask that people do all they can to learn about the environment and the past requests.
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I am rapidly losing all faith in my ability to communicate. There is no opposition here to ideas whatsoever, we just ask that people do all they can to learn about the environment and the past requests.
:devil:
Idea: add an enki to the lore of the game as a legendary character of days gone by that appeared from the humble beginnings of a farm-hand who rose to power to change an uncivilized piece of country to one where order and good will and treating your fellow "man" were the laws of the land. How he accomplished this was through use of his all powerful magic hammer which he used to banish the lawbreakers from ever being able to step foot on the land again. And also, you can have in there how he was always bringing joy and smiles to the peoples through his many plays he put on and the many wonderful drawings of cute little animals.
Basis for request from past examples: "kada"
:whistling:
(for those that don't get the above, it's one big attempt at being funny)
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/me shows how the sky (rock) can be blue using actual real world light dynamic physics in the form of pictures.
Yet none of those pictures have anything to do with living in a giant carved out stalactite with a crystal light incapable of producing the range of colors you describe.
Do some studying on atmospheric science and the properties of light. You are obviously not going to believe anything I say on the subject. Not to mention that this is a fantasy world and magic does play a part. Magic is -not- the main reason the dome is blue, though. The reason is the same as in those pictures. Distance, water vapor, particulates in the air, light refraction, wavelength properties across the visible spectrum, light source, and perception. Given all that, it would not be realistic to have the dome look any other color -but- blue. Those pictures have -everything- to do with why the cavern roof looks blue.
The ruins are there because Yliakum's past is not all sunshine and roses. Bad things happened. In a society such as Yliakum has with 98% peasants, the past is very easily forgotten... or buried.
If I lived in a normal world on the surface, yes, but we don't. We live in a giant stalactite carved out of solid rock. You have enough trouble even figuring out where the dirt came from let alone enough to cover entire temple ruins... [more or the same]... Maybe there is an easy lore solution, I'll leave it to others to figure out.
An excellent idea. Despite what you seem to think, there are very capable people working on the game. You want a -specific- example of why there are ruins in some places? Read Song of the Lemur. You want to know why there are ruins under the Iron temple that no one seems to remember where they came from? No. That information is not going to be just handed out. There is a reason they are there. There is also a reason why no one knows any information about them. To the victor is awarded the past. Do a little bit of research on the dark ages and see how much knowledge and history was lost over a -very- short time period due to disaster or war. Research how many cities or entire civilizations have -vanished- and been forgotten for centuries. Look at how much we are rediscovering today about things that happened only 400 years ago that go against common knowledge of what happened. We have the time, money, and technology to do so. Information is easy to come by. In Yliakum, people are at the stage in history when they are just trying to survive. If you want to know how history can vanish, I suggest you look no future than your own government. If they -really- wanted your entire town or city to vanish, it could be done, and in 400 years, no one would even remember it beyond vague and inaccurate rumors, if at all. It has happened in real life, and it can happen in a game. Yes, Yliakum is a very small society. Despite what you think, that makes it -far- easier to hide the past. The smaller a group is, the easier it is to erase information within a few generations. There is a single government controlling the entire realm. There are not any outside entities to record what happens. The government controls the information and pulls the strings. They control the people. They control the past.
I have personally worked hard on the details of the history of Yliakum, and though you and your characters do not have access to that info yet (for a reason), I assure you it all fits together.
Again:
All I am seeing is Dev: "This is why things are the way they are. There will be more as we build it." You: "No, that is not good enough."
My answers are based on fact. Yours are based on your opinions and how you think things are. Do not denounce what I say without first doing a little bit of research on the matter.
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It's been pointed out to me that I may have overreacted... I'll go one step further and say I read things into what was written that wasn't there. It's a two way street though. You read things into my posts that weren't there either, but I think my sarcastic wit nailed me a few times cause some things I said in jest that may have just fanned the flames. My apology earlier, though, was sincere, and I'll extend it again.
Xillix, what do I want? Nothing. Not a dang thing. A lot of what I wrote could have been addressed by a simple "thank you for your input." and I would have gone off never thinking about it again. Some were just ideas that I know I didn't have the knowledge to back up, and somethings were just impressions. Part of my biggest frustration was trying to get across that I was OK with being wrong about it, but it just kept going on and on when I just wanted to move on, and maybe I replied one to many times. This original post also suffered from too many ideas in it, and again, I didn't plan on this being released to this part of the general forums. I only wanted to discuss the effects this had on the feel of the game from what I was reading and what I was experiencing.
And on a related topic, "thought police" was a cheap shot, Xillix. My apologies. Yes i should reply to this over in the other thread, but I'm here now. Please don't tell me, though, that in order to understand the written history of the world I have to go looking through post after post of information to fill in the gaps. Fix the history of how Laanx became a man... that would be kind of important, and it's just odd on the web page right now. I noticed that a long time ago when I first read it and it just clicked back in my mind yesterday as I was studying it trying to learn some more. If I want anything, how about that?
Now, please let me just discuss the topics that Moon addressed. Don't feel that I'm attacking the game or that I think it has to be fixed to my specifications. I will just discuss, you decide if you need to implement, we all play, and life goes on.
Do some studying on atmospheric science and the properties of light. You are obviously not going to believe anything I say on the subject. Not to mention that this is a fantasy world and magic does play a part. Magic is -not- the main reason the dome is blue, though. The reason is the same as in those pictures. Distance, water vapor, particulates in the air, light refraction, wavelength properties across the visible spectrum, light source, and perception. Given all that, it would not be realistic to have the dome look any other color -but- blue. Those pictures have -everything- to do with why the cavern roof looks blue.
I don't discount what you say and you're absolutely right for multi-spectrum light sources, but the point I was making is that the crystal shouldn't be producing multi-spectrum light. I think we got sidetracked on the textures so please, let me go to what prompted me to write it in the first place. Here is what I originally wrote:
One discrepancy I see is just the fact that you describe our crystal world as being underground, yet when I look up to the sky... I see just that, sky. How about texturing the sky with a cave roof? And make the crystal the focus of the sky and don't vaguely obscure it behind clouds. This seems a rather simple change to make as it's just texturing and a little lighting, which you've already done.
Now, I admit that I was wrong in my initial interpretation of what I was seeing on the Dome. It looked like sky to me, and now that I go back and look at it closely, yeah, I can see what you mean. But regardless of what it actually is, it doesn't feel like I'm underground, and it took a flame war to get it across. Shouldn't the game world do that on its own? Again, this was to the settings group and not the graphics group. I was just sending my impressions to them and let them decide if they needed to direct a graphics change.
Along with this impression, though, was the fact that when I look at the world around me, I see colors. Colors that shouldn't be there if the primary light source is an Azure crystal. That was the driving force behind my original argument, and I believe I lost sight of that too in the back and forth of the texture issue. The best argument given was that if you rendered the game according to that, then it would just be too difficult to play, and hey, that works for me. Multi-spectrum light it is.
The ruins are there because Yliakum's past is not all sunshine and roses. Bad things happened. In a society such as Yliakum has with 98% peasants, the past is very easily forgotten... or buried.
An excellent idea. Despite what you seem to think, there are very capable people working on the game.
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There are not any outside entities to record what happens. The government controls the information and pulls the strings. They control the people. They control the past.
I have personally worked hard on the details of the history of Yliakum, and though you and your characters do not have access to that info yet (for a reason), I assure you it all fits together.
Fair enough. When I did write that I will leave it to other people, I meant it, and it was not meant to imply you guys stink at what you do. As I was rereading the history trying to find what I missed, I did notice some references to other races that kind of implied they were there before, but it seems an oddity to me that if Laanx and Talad carved the cavern and stalactite, and the world was kind of given to them in the first place by Vodul, that it should have been a clean slate. The history described doesn't really say anything about this, but I will accept that there is more to the story than I know. It does appear the gods were messing with them.
And I don't want to just ignore one suggestion, joining the team. I don't think that would be a good idea. I'm too hard headed and opinionated, and I see there are a few others on the team like me. :) I also just don't know enough of the history here to add much value, and honestly, I'm already the lead of a medium sized software development team, and I just don't need the additional headaches. That's why I have always tried to contribute on the forums to give something back to the developers, without the commitment. Yeah, can be kind of a cheap way out, but it's the best I can do.
I really hope this gets behind us and we move on. It was never my intent to waste your time chasing down ideas that you don't need to when you can be spending that time developing. This went way further than I ever intended and got way out of control. If I post in the future, I will try to focus my ideas and keep them short and simple, and limit it to one idea per post to avoid sidetracking issues.
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"I'm too hard headed and opinionated, and I see there are a few others on the team like me."
Aye. You would fit right in. It often takes a strong personality to work on the project.
/me <- hard headed and opinionated, as demonstrated in this thread.
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I would tend to say it takes a certain amount of orneriness just to keep with the game in the first place and that is why there are such epic clashes on the forum. I might be wrong though! :-\