PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Prolix on May 09, 2008, 06:08:48 am
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What exactly does a magic trainer do for his money?
He does not teach spells combinations, he does not teach glyph identification and use, so what does he teach?
Are we supposed to role play that his teaching is some sort of "Wax on, Wax off" Karate Kid Mumbo Jumbo?
Perhaps we are supposed to think that for his money he casts a spell from an extra special teaching glyph whose only purpose is to allow the recipient to advance to the next level. If it is that does that mean all trainers have the glyph and the ability to use it specially bestowed upon them by Talad (the glyph creator, not the game maker) himself despite whichever other god they may favor? Perhaps this is how player training could be implemented...
I realize that it is the way it is and is unlikely to change anytime in the foreseeable future. I am just trying to find some kind of in context, in character justification for the out of character, out of context game policy decision.
If I cannot come up with a suitable explanation, why shouldn't I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2604ohFR8g) (now in foreign language hilarity, except for you whose language it happens to be.)
I guess the best I can expect from this thread is a bunch of (possibly hilarious) player speculation, but I would especially appreciate an authoritative response.
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Honestly, I don't know what any of the trainers do for you. That always has been a bone of contention between me and the trainers. If they were to sell you a book on "Training from Level 15 to 16" that, at least, would be something. ;)
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I like the idea of "teaching glyphs".
Perhaps some uber-expensive ones could be made available to the public in the future? (Though player-trainers have been discussed in another thread already...this could very well tie in, though).
Or perhaps just an inherent talent that a select few were born with.
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At least with the combat skills you can assume that the trainer teaches you a new stance or maneuver, or corrects a flaw in an old one, the combat system is pretty generalized. With the crafting skills, your instruction manual (e. g. book of blades) actually gets updated from time to time. The base statistics are kind of odd as training is immediate, but I do not really want to get into that here as, while it is similar, it is not really the same -- it is hard to justify but you are not denied a necessary piece of knowledge.
I wonder how long it will take me to try the 116,280* combinations of my 20 glyphs enough times to be sure I have found all the available spells. I do not really have time for that so I guess I'll just write off the magic system completely (not!). Too bad I cannot slay the magic trainers for their obstinacy. That would make me feel better.
*actually it is more because that assumes that each spell has 4 components which obviously is not the case.
I guess I am just whining now so I will stop and wait for some outrageous speculation. :)
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Well, you said a combat teacher teaches you a new move or corrects a flaw in your moves. How about a magic teacher corrects the flaws in your magic technique. Channeling magic is a skill. You have to open yourself to the power of the glyphs and let their power flow through you. That implies technique to me. Practice points are those points you get (I think) by studying, self teaching, practicing. Then the trainer helps you clarify things about a particular glyph, and then you go off and practice it. As you focus your technique, you slowly channel more energy from the glyphs, making your spells stronger.
That work? :sorcerer:
Now if I could get a spell to hit worth more than 2 points to justify all the points magic needs.
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Yes and no. Let us compare crystal way with the sword skill. If I get a magical sword I can use it right away unless I need to raise a stat or two. If I get a glyph I can purify it right away but that doesn't do anything for me. If it has a low level spell associated with it, I can learn and cast it with only one level of training. Thus the arrow glyph would be roughly equivalent to a non-magical sword. There are flaws with the comparison but bear with me. With a weapon, no matter what your skill level or what type it is training is all the same, equip it and start whacking. With magic it is different. You are stuck with your basic magic until you find another glyph combination, one two or more glyphs. I would suggest that the spells are the equivalent of the (assumed) maneuver that the weapon trainer teaches so that if the systems were the same then the character would need to go around collecting attack and defense style 'chits' with no help from the trainer and then use them in combat instead of just auto-attack. What would end up happening would be a series of thrust, block, parry, riposte and whatever from both combatants.
Now if they were to change the combat system to something like that I would not think the spell secrecy so out of line but as it is not your comparison does not really work for me.
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You are stuck with your basic magic until you find another glyph combination, one two or more glyphs.
'Basic magic' = Basic weapon bought at the smith
Glyph combination (can be gained from asking the right 'player' person) = Different weapons, gained by self crafting (combining things ;) ) or looting, buying from players
Train weapon = Damage increase (or other later implemented effect a weapon can have, skinning potatoes?)
Train magic = effect increase
Apart from the fact that magic is kinda weak, I don't see they difference with normal weapons.
It MustangMR said, when you train in a magic way you learn how to use your glyph. Like with an photoshop tutorial:
level 1 = Draw stick man
level 500 = Place yourself on the eifel tower.
:sorcerer:
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Oh man, too funny, I was just thinking about the Gods Must Be Crazy and why they don't repeat it on TV like they used to. This may be more for the wishlist, but I think a book/mind thing like the crafting and metal books may be good and I'm sure they've got something up their sleeves. Seems like magic has come a long way since the beginning.
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So Socius, where did the first player discover the proper glyph combination? Why would Players give out information that their trainers wouldn't give them? If player can pass on the information why shouldn't the trainers? You can't tell me he tried hundreds of thousands of combinations or more several times each.
I find it hard to believe every spell that any player knows was first discovered by trial and error. I suppose it is possible but I think it is also possible that the development team leaks such information, either officially through events or otherwise. If this is the case it seems unfair but would explain players willingness to share the secrets of the universe.
The only other possibility I can think of is that glyph combinations are so trivially simple that it is a no brainer once you achieve an appropriate level. This would explain sharing too but would appear to render the npc secrecy pointless. It isn't something I have experienced but I have not yet hit level 20 in any way and I have never found a multiple glyph spell. Research is too painful for casual experimentation.
I suppose my real problem is that I do not like having to rely on other people to get my information for me. I like to get it from the game. I do not mind being told where to get the information by another player if I ask but just being given the information feels like cheating. Guessing games seem pretty childish to me and that seems to be the preferred direction for PS.
All the same, if I do not like it, that is my problem. The world does not revolve around me, except from the perspective of the people who live in my head.
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Prolix I can agree that getting the info for the desired combinations is a but like cheating and also finding them yourself brings a sense of accomplishment, But if you get all your informantion from the 'game',i.e NPC's then whats the point of roleplaying, and interacting with the others is all part of the fun.
I think what really needs to happen is the ability to 'learn' from ones mistakes. I would think that a prudent Magic user would quickly learn from their mistakes, As does any warrior after attacking an ulbernault before they are ready does, or any other creature out there. To learn from ones mistakes, and others mistakes, is one to the things that make real life real. So getting a minimal amount of experience and or practical training from failing would increase the benefit for trying to discover spells. Attacking beasts also damages the hunters/warriors so receiving damage from failed attempts seems logical to me.
But as all others have said it is a work in progress and the magic system is getting better as it is refined. I believe topics like this are taken and used to help fix some of the 'bugs' in the sytem.
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If I paid you to train me I would expect you to teach me at least one new spell each level. There are too many levels for that to be possible in each Way, I think, but I would hope to know the majority of the realm one spells in that Way by the time you take me to realm level two if you teach me the whole of realm one. Then again, you cannot train me at all, currently. As it stands now how can I role play getting spell combinations from you that my teacher ought to have taught me. It leaves me feeling completely defrauded by my trainer.
I suppose I should start trolling the flea markets looking for Phinehas' "Spell Combinations For Dummies vol. 1" or some such thing. Chances are if I get told combinations I'll forget them by the time I advance to be able to cast them.
As an aside, I really do not like seeing all the wares laid out, it is too messy to me. One book with a price list should be sufficient and perhaps an assistant or two sitting quietly behind the merchant for overflow. Certainly not one male (or Kran?) vendor standing with a female assistant(?) sitting under a table with her face in his groin as I saw in Akkaio with his wares.
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Prolix... I understand your frustration on the magic thing, but the stand in Akkaio, in my opinion, is very well done. If I hadn't seen the weapons standing there, I would have just assumed people were chatting in the shade and not given it a second glance. Please don't slam their efforts in the forums as they are doing a huge service to the game by standing there doing little else but selling their wares. When was the last time you went to a vendor market (flea market) or other venue and they simply handed you a book but you couldn't see anything else? In-game, they can't even create a big banner that tells who they are or what they are selling... so again, please don't criticize their efforts on the forums.
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So Socius, where did the first player discover the proper glyph combination? Why would Players give out information that their trainers wouldn't give them? If player can pass on the information why shouldn't the trainers? You can't tell me he tried hundreds of thousands of combinations or more several times each.
Well no one said magic is easy, and maybe for a trainer to give you a combination would like be a math teacher just saying the answer.
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Back on track now, good.
My math teachers always showed me the process and ran through it a number of times showing both the work and the final answer before setting me on to the exercise books which had the answers printed at the back of the book. During tests, of course there were no answers.
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Well, I think you're underestimating training on a weapon, Prolix. Someone who picks up a knife and enters a knife fight with an expert will probably have that knife stuck in their own throat before they know it. What I think is a bit unbalanced is the two systems. For equal skill, say 1, the damage is no where near comparable between magic and melee. I don't know what it's like at higher levels, but that can be fixed, and the overall training method seems okay, to me at least. Magic should require skill to use, and skill requires some training to get. I don't see a difference between the two systems. You could ask just as easily who figured out how to sharpen steel into the different types of blades after they used sticks for so long. There is a huge difference between a knife and a long sword and how you fight with them.
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You don't have to know how to make a weapon to use it, you do have to know how to make a spell. It is true once you have learned the spell you don't need to remember how it was made but if you accidentally lose one of the glyphs you need you will have to figure out which one(s) you need. That is one major difference. Another is you do not have to take damage to learn how to equip the weapon which, to me, is analogous to researching the spell. Once you learn a spell it is always at hand unless your mana is depleted. That is like being unable to fight due to stamina loss.
The difference between knife and long sword styles is similar to the difference between Red Way and Brown Way. The former are differing weapon styles and the latter are differing magic styles. The difference between weapon styles and magic styles is greater than that amongst weapon styles or that amongst magic styles.
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Are you asking for in-character justification or just complaining? There have been a couple of very good explanations that could work to justify the current mechanics to the satisfaction of a character from Yliakum. You keep saying that these are not good enough and it should really by like "this". You could make the same argument about the weapons styles from the perspective of someone who has studied martial arts. This is a ROUGH simulation of the real world, NOT the real thing. If you have such a problem with gaining and combining glyphs, then maybe magic in PS just isn't for you.
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I thought I was responding to the replies that were offered to me. From what I understand, the martial arts will be Argan, Esteria, and Lah'ar. For some reason they are listed under "other" skills so I am not positive about that. Other people have offered suggestions and I appreciated them. At the same time, for one reason or other they did not work for me and I tried to indicate why.
If I just wanted to justify the current policy from an in character perspective, I could simply assume that it is the way it is because the gods have willed it to be so. Concise and irrefutable. There are gods active in the world and everything bad can be blamed on them and everything good credited to one or more of them.
Talad created the glyphs and he jealously guards knowledge about them. The npc trainers know that bad things will happen to them if they talk about glyphs or spell combinations, the players just have not learned it yet. That might be a good justification except that the players will likely never suffer any consequences from relating the information.
I suppose the previous suggestions basically boil down to 'discovering glyph combinations it the trivial part of learning magic' and that the trainers ration out the difficult parts as you level. If that were so I think that examining one purified glyph would give you a resonant feeling about another purified glyph in your possession that was related by sharing a spell connection. Advanced casting levels would give you stronger feelings about more powerful glyph combinations. I do not know how this could be implemented though.
Anyway I am more than happy to keep discussing this if people have more ideas.
By the way, bilbous is still looking for a book of glyph combinations if there are any mages out there that care to write one out in the game.
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Well, some more ideas. The glyphs in game, as I understand them, would be small stones with symbols on them. The symbols would represent words of power infused into them by... I guess Talad if I'm reading everything right. Color doesn't really mean anything other than a means of identifying the category of words the symbol on them represents. Those symbols would require interpretation, and meaning, and if they were to somehow represent a gods language, one symbol could have many meanings and usages with varying powers in each one. You would have to be taught the meaning of the glyphs, how to pronounce the words correctly, etc...
Then, add to it that a person's ability to manipulate their own thoughts is a learned skill. Meditation can be a tougher skill to learn than sword fighting. All the emotional baggage that people carry can corrupt the purity of their thoughts and make even the simplest directed thought impossible. Add that in, and all these teachers around the area are really spiritual advisers as much as anything else. To channel the energy of the glyphs, you have to pull it all together, pure thoughts to channel, speak the words correctly, perhaps even hold them correctly. So I still see value in the trainers around the world and the system in place.
Now, this is all my interpretation. I could role play it like this, but it doesn't mean it's what the games authors (i.e., the lolgods), intended. Till it becomes lore, it's hard to say how to roleplay it right. I do not understand the purification process described and how that fits in, unless you consider purifying them to be part of the understanding of the symbol. After that though, the combining of them would be based on the players knowledge of the words/symbols on them and how to form more powerful sentences with them. That seems within terms of what could be expected of the glyph magic system in game and in character. I think the process of researching could be a bit more involved, but no biggie.
As for other players telling each other the recipes, well, perhaps there should be more consequences, like backfires, to keep powerful mages from sharing too powerful spells with young acolytes. Otherwise, you can't really stop that, and I would put forward other players, if you really want PS to be about role playing, should be able to train up other characters if their skill is higher. They can charge what they want, and the trainers in the world are just a sort of check on making sure people don't abuse the player base.
What bothers me the most though... why are they all standing around on street corners all day long? Shouldn't they be off in a cave or a study somewhere focusing their thoughts? :)
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Prolix... I like your suggestion about "sensing" a stronger connection between glyphs as you gain higher levels. I have given considerable thought to come up with a suggestion on how to implement it. If you are level 0-5 in any given way, you are stuck with random chance. If you are level 6-10 you start to gain a sense for what glyphs might go together because those that are compatible would change color slightly after placing one in the research area. If you are a level 11 - 15 you might get a different color change indicating only those glyphs that would be compatible after the one already placed. lather, rinse, repeat. I am just using the level brackets above as a suggestion, but whatever level ranges would be appropriate given the max level available in-game would likely change the numbers I used.
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Very well put. What I think you are saying is that the trainers teach you grammar and vocabulary but learning spell combinations is learning to apply the lessons and to make meaningful sentences. I can accept that. I just wish there were more clues to developing the spell combinations but perhaps there is and I just haven't quested enough for the instructors.
As far as purification goes, it would seem to me to be taking the potential energy of the glyph and turning it into kinetic energy. Sort of unwrapping the batteries before putting them into your device. I wouldn't mind if the research was more involved as long as it was less painful. Maybe it depends on your stats and the closer to max mental stats you have the less damage you receive per attempt.
Where else will you find your cash cow ... I mean students ... and why in all those kung fu movies is the master a cook, a servant or the drunk in the corner? It may be a case of 'hide in plain sight,' avoid trouble by seeming innocuous. Or just plain laziness.
Myth that sound pretty good to me, the appropriate levels might be the ones associated with the realms which are either 10 or 20, I am not positive what they are specifically.