A question for the development team and/or for player speculation

[Prolix]

What exactly does a magic trainer do for his money?
He does not teach spells combinations, he does not teach glyph identification and use, so what does he teach?
Are we supposed to role play that his teaching is some sort of "Wax on, Wax off" Karate Kid Mumbo Jumbo?
Perhaps we are supposed to think that for his money he casts a spell from an extra special teaching glyph whose only purpose is to allow the recipient to advance to the next level. If it is that does that mean all trainers have the glyph and the ability to use it specially bestowed upon them by Talad (the glyph creator, not the game maker) himself despite whichever other god they may favor? Perhaps this is how player training could be implemented...

I realize that it is the way it is and is unlikely to change anytime in the foreseeable future. I am just trying to find some kind of in context, in character justification for the out of character, out of context game policy decision.

If I cannot come up with a suitable explanation, why shouldn't I think this (now in foreign language hilarity, except for you whose language it happens to be.)

I guess the best I can expect from this thread is a bunch of (possibly hilarious) player speculation, but I would especially appreciate an authoritative response.

[Under the moon]

Honestly, I don't know what any of the trainers do for you. That always has been a bone of contention between me and the trainers. If they were to sell you a book on "Training from Level 15 to 16" that, at least, would be something.

[Candy]

I like the idea of "teaching glyphs".

Perhaps some uber-expensive ones could be made available to the public in the future? (Though player-trainers have been discussed in another thread already...this could very well tie in, though).

Or perhaps just an inherent talent that a select few were born with.

[Prolix]

At least with the combat skills you can assume that the trainer teaches you a new stance or maneuver, or corrects a flaw in an old one, the combat system is pretty generalized. With the crafting skills, your instruction manual (e. g. book of blades) actually gets updated from time to time. The base statistics are kind of odd as training is immediate, but I do not really want to get into that here as, while it is similar, it is not really the same -- it is hard to justify but you are not denied a necessary piece of knowledge.

I wonder how long it will take me to try the 116,280* combinations of my 20 glyphs enough times to be sure I have found all the available spells. I do not really have time for that so I guess I'll just write off the magic system completely (not!). Too bad I cannot slay the magic trainers for their obstinacy. That would make me feel better.

*actually it is more because that assumes that each spell has 4 components which obviously is not the case.

I guess I am just whining now so I will stop and wait for some outrageous speculation. 

[MustangMR]

Well, you said a combat teacher teaches you a new move or corrects a flaw in your moves.  How about a magic teacher corrects the flaws in your magic technique.  Channeling magic is a skill.  You have to open yourself to the power of the glyphs and let their power flow through you.  That implies technique to me.  Practice points are those points you get (I think) by studying, self teaching, practicing.  Then the trainer helps you clarify things about a particular glyph, and then you go off and practice it.  As you focus your technique, you slowly channel more energy from the glyphs, making your spells stronger.

That work? 

Now if I could get a spell to hit worth more than 2 points to justify all the points magic needs.

[Prolix]

Yes and no. Let us compare crystal way with the sword skill. If I get a magical sword I can use it right away unless I need to raise a stat or two. If I get a glyph I can purify it right away but that doesn't do anything for me. If it has a low level spell associated with it, I can learn and cast it with only one level of training. Thus the arrow glyph would be roughly equivalent to a non-magical sword. There are flaws with the comparison but bear with me. With a weapon, no matter what your skill level or what type it is training is all the same, equip it and start whacking. With magic it is different. You are stuck with your basic magic until you find another glyph  combination, one two or more glyphs. I would suggest that the spells are the equivalent of the (assumed) maneuver that the weapon trainer teaches so that if the systems were the same then the character would need to go around collecting attack and defense style 'chits' with no help from the trainer and then use them in combat instead of just auto-attack. What would end up happening would be a series of thrust, block, parry, riposte and whatever from both combatants.

Now if they were to change the combat system to something like that I would not think the spell secrecy so out of line but as it is not your comparison does not really work for me.

[Socius Rockus]

You are stuck with your basic magic until you find another glyph  combination, one two or more glyphs.

'Basic magic' = Basic weapon bought at the smith
Glyph combination (can be gained from asking the right 'player' person) = Different weapons, gained by self crafting (combining things ) or looting, buying from players

Train weapon = Damage increase (or other later implemented effect a weapon can have, skinning potatoes?)
Train magic = effect increase

Apart from the fact that magic is kinda weak, I don't see they difference with normal weapons.
It MustangMR said, when you train in a magic way you learn how to use your glyph. Like with an photoshop tutorial:

level 1 = Draw stick man
level 500 = Place yourself on the eifel tower.
 

[StitchedChin]

Oh man, too funny, I was just thinking about the Gods Must Be Crazy and why they don't repeat it on TV like they used to.  This may be more for the wishlist, but I think a book/mind thing like the crafting and metal books may be good and I'm sure they've got something up their sleeves.  Seems like magic has come a long way since the beginning.

[Prolix]

So Socius, where did the first player discover the proper glyph combination? Why would Players give out information that their trainers wouldn't give them? If player can pass on the information why shouldn't the trainers? You can't tell me he tried hundreds of thousands of combinations or more several times each.

I find it hard to believe every spell that any player knows was first discovered by trial and error. I suppose it is possible but I think it is also possible that the development team leaks such information, either officially through events or otherwise. If this is the case it seems unfair but would explain players willingness to share the secrets of the universe.

The only other possibility I can think of is that glyph combinations are so trivially simple that it is a no brainer once you achieve an appropriate level. This would explain sharing too but would appear to render the npc secrecy pointless. It isn't something I have experienced but I have not yet hit level 20 in any way and I have never found a multiple glyph spell. Research is too painful for casual experimentation.

I suppose my real problem is that I do not like having to rely on other people to get my information for me. I like to get it from the game. I do not mind being told where to get the information by another player if I ask but just being given the information feels like cheating. Guessing games seem pretty childish to me and that seems to be the preferred direction for PS.

All the same, if I do not like it, that is my problem. The world does not revolve around me, except from the perspective of the people who live in my head.

[Hrothbert]

Prolix I can agree that getting the info for the desired combinations is a but like cheating and also finding them yourself brings a sense of accomplishment, But if you get all your informantion from the 'game',i.e NPC's then whats the point of roleplaying, and interacting with the others is all part of the fun.

I think what really needs to happen is the ability to 'learn' from ones mistakes. I would think that a prudent Magic user would quickly learn from their mistakes, As does any warrior after attacking an ulbernault before they are ready does, or any other creature out there. To learn from ones mistakes, and others mistakes, is one to the things that make real life real. So getting a minimal amount of experience and or practical training from failing would increase the benefit for trying to discover spells. Attacking beasts also damages the hunters/warriors so receiving damage from failed attempts seems logical to me.

But as all others have said it is a work in progress and the magic system is getting better as it is refined. I believe topics like this are taken and used to help fix some of the 'bugs' in the sytem.

[Prolix]

If I paid you to train me I would expect you to teach me at least one new spell each level. There are too many levels for that to be possible in each Way, I think, but I would hope to know the majority of the realm one spells in that Way by the time you take me to realm level two if you teach me the whole of realm one. Then again, you cannot train me at all, currently. As it stands now how can I role play getting spell combinations from you that my teacher ought to have taught me. It leaves me feeling completely defrauded by my trainer.

I suppose I should start trolling the flea markets looking for Phinehas' "Spell Combinations For Dummies vol. 1" or some such thing. Chances are if I get told combinations I'll forget them by the time I advance to be able to cast them.

As an aside, I really do not like seeing all the wares laid out, it is too messy to me. One book with a price list should be sufficient and perhaps an assistant or two sitting quietly behind the merchant for overflow. Certainly not one male (or Kran?) vendor standing with a female assistant(?) sitting under a table with her face in his groin as I saw in Akkaio with his wares.

[Mythryndel]

Prolix... I understand your frustration on the magic thing, but the stand in Akkaio, in my opinion, is very well done. If I hadn't seen the weapons standing there, I would have just assumed people were chatting in the shade and not given it a second glance. Please don't slam their efforts in the forums as they are doing a huge service to the game by standing there doing little else but selling their wares. When was the last time you went to a vendor market (flea market) or other venue and they simply handed you a book but you couldn't see anything else? In-game, they can't even create a big banner that tells who they are or what they are selling... so again, please don't criticize their efforts on the forums.

[Socius Rockus]

So Socius, where did the first player discover the proper glyph combination? Why would Players give out information that their trainers wouldn't give them? If player can pass on the information why shouldn't the trainers? You can't tell me he tried hundreds of thousands of combinations or more several times each.

Well no one said magic is easy, and maybe for a trainer to give you a combination would like be a math teacher just saying the answer.

[Prolix]

Back on track now, good.

My math teachers always showed me the process and ran through it a number of times showing both the work and the final answer before setting me on to the exercise books which had the answers printed at the back of the book. During tests, of course there were no answers.

[MustangMR]

Well, I think you're underestimating training on a weapon, Prolix.  Someone who picks up a knife and enters a knife fight with an expert will probably have that knife stuck in their own throat before they know it.  What I think is a bit unbalanced is the two systems.  For equal skill, say 1, the damage is no where near comparable between magic and melee.  I don't know what it's like at higher levels, but that can be fixed, and the overall training method seems okay, to me at least.  Magic should require skill to use, and skill requires some training to get.  I don't see a difference between the two systems.  You could ask just as easily who figured out how to sharpen steel into the different types of blades after they used sticks for so long.  There is a huge difference between a knife and a long sword and how you fight with them.