PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dajoji on May 16, 2008, 04:22:08 am

Title: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Dajoji on May 16, 2008, 04:22:08 am: Knowing what the community thinks about our work as Game Masters and how we can improve it is very important for us, so please take a few minutes to answer the following survey:

Click here --> Game Moderation Survey (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=V6ov1Ds7TGKL_2fEgOBJWewg_3d_3d) <--Click here
(Estimated time to complete this survey: 5-10 minutes)

Feel free to add comments and elaborate on your experience with Game Masters in this thread but please note that:

1) This thread is for the discussion of the current quality of Game Moderation only, not GM Events. That involves: enforcement of the naming policy, disruptive behavior management, botting, bug exploits, helping players with the game, harassment and other player-player issues, quest testing, etc. Posts addressing GM events will be removed from this thread. We will cover other aspects of GM work in future polls and surveys.

2) This thread is not to become a GM, dev or player flamefest. Feel free to post your experience but do not comment on any specific member of the PS team. If you wish to file a complaint, contact Kerol, the GM Leader. Rants and non-constructive posts will be removed from this thread.

Thank you :)
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Raa on May 16, 2008, 09:46:49 am: I think there needs to be closer moderation of Game Masters. Once when I was logged in (not sure who the character was), some GM whose name started with a K (wouldn't say the full name if I knew it) began to harass me... It went completely unnoticed, despite the fact I reported him/her (the char was a she, but you can never tell these days) several times, and I think I made a petition. He/she told me no one would care because he's/she's with the team and yadda yadda. Somehow that totally ruined my day and everything fell apart, lolz.

...Corruption? :-X
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: citizen on May 16, 2008, 10:10:39 am: Quote from: Raa on May 16, 2008, 09:46:49 am
I think there needs to be closer moderation of Game Masters. Once when I was logged in (not sure who the character was), some GM whose name started with a K (wouldn't say the full name if I knew it) began to harass me... It went completely unnoticed, despite the fact I reported him/her (the char was a she, but you can never tell these days) several times, and I think I made a petition. He/she told me no one would care because he's/she's with the team and yadda yadda. Somehow that totally ruined my day and everything fell apart, lolz.

...Corruption? :-X

Me had some affair not with GM, but some lower level stuff i think. I dont want to write ingame spoilers so not mention what bothers me, but the argument what were used is incompatible with PS world. And the same will be reported bullshit.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Mordraugion on May 16, 2008, 10:13:46 am: Firstly if you do have a complaint against the GM team go here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22697.msg249334#msg249334) and read, we'd much rather you made a formal complaint so such issues can be cleared up than wait til details are forgotten and the issue festers.

Secondly as Dajoji mentioned this thread is NOT intended to be a GM flamefest if you have a genuine issue report it do not make vague allegations, the idea of the survey is to discover if and where we need to improve, we cant do that if we're continually being undermined by vacuous rumours of wrong doing.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Prolix on May 16, 2008, 11:48:39 pm: Referring to the survey I have particular issues with questions 6 and 8 but not especially serious ones.
Question six: relative difficulty with contacting GMs really depends on how significant the issue is. I do not often have a need for a GM, the last time was when I fell under a sewer waterwheel and did not fancy dying to get out. There were no GMs online at the time so I went on irc #planeshift-gmtalk This channel seems to be dead anytime I go there and the policy to mention a gms name specifically is a little intimidating. Nevertheless, I made a generic request as there were 4-5 nicks listed and shortly after started prompting them by name not knowing who might have been listening the keenest or least busy. This worked fine for me I got a response then another one and then 'met' the first responder in the game and was pulled out of my prison.

Most of the time I have contacted a gm was for a bad character name for which a petition sufficed. Once or twice I have /who gm /tell gmname like the time I reported the item painting above the pass archway where I could not get at the items. This worked well too but only because there was a gm online at the time.

So my answer to #6 was I don't know because it was too general.

Question 8 working together I would have preferred to pick I don't know but it was not available, instead I chose C. I have seen a few events but nothing recent and they seemed generally well run. Other than that I have seen little that required teamwork. I do have one suggestion and it ties in with question 6; that is, in the gm channel have an indication of order of preference for gms to contact. Set up some kind of number system appended to the nick to indicate who is available. An example system might be thus: idle - ready to help = nick_1; somewhat busy with other things but still available = nick_2; busy helping player - form a line = nick_4. Not a complete system but enough to get the idea.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Anumesa on May 18, 2008, 11:54:49 pm: Here are just my thoughts on the questions :)

1.) I know, and/or have had contact with, quite a few of the GMs and every single one that i asked for help was able to help, or find me someone who could help. If there was an issue, he or she was kind enough to explain it to me, and i have never been left in the dark so to speak feeling confused on why they took a certain action.

2.) As far as i know, all the GMs follow the rules and policies. I have never encountered an instance of a GM abusing their power/authority :)

3.) I would like to think they have improved over time as well...there have been surveys such as this one, and im sure the results are going towards improving the team.

4. and 6.) I do think GMs are kind of hard to get ahold of when you need one. I feel like it is kind of a crapshoot..either there are 3-4 online at once, or none at all. This is more then likely due to time zones and i realize it is hard to have 24/7 moderation, but most of the times that i have needed a GM ingame, there was not one currently logged in to ask for assistance. Luckily i know about irc, so in most cases i was able to locate one through the gm channel, but i feel like the entire process takes ages and a lot of times if (for example) someone im helping on the help channel is stuck in the tutorial, they may get very frustrated waiting for assistance. That said, 9 times out of 10 i was eventually able to get help, i just think it would be nice if the gms were more available.

5.) I feel like the GMs are very helpful whenever one needs assistance ingame. Of course im sure there are petty squabbles and /reports and /petitions where the situation can get quite ugly, but for the most part i feel like they do a great job keeping it fair.

7.) I honestly have no idea...a bunch?

8. and 9.) I think that with any team you are going to have people who butt heads, but that it can turn into a constructive situation and doesnt necessarily have to be bad. I dont think any conflict within the GM team has ever hindered their ability to successfully manage the game and aid the players.

10.) I gave you guys a 4 because from my experience you have done a great job :)

Anyways...this is based solely on what i have experienced ingame and also talking to GMs on irc and it is merely my opinion. The GM team could be in a massive evil plot to take over the world for all i know.... :-\
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on May 19, 2008, 02:08:59 am: Raa the person you mention has been removed and had all power stripped from them for the abuses you mention as well as others.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Dajoji on May 23, 2008, 07:04:14 am: Please don't forget to fill in the survey if you haven't yet. It's important for us to know what the community thinks. Thanks.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: eldoth_terevan on May 23, 2008, 07:56:12 am: This house cleaning was a fine and long overdue idea. Enough said. Good work.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: LigH on May 23, 2008, 08:59:50 am: I am quite happy to be in contact with Kerol (GM leader), so my survey may have been slightly biased; at least, I really have to tell you, from my point of view, that most concerns are already known, and they don't enjoy sitting in any ivory tower. Furthermore - I, personally, believe that formerly (or still) rather active players can make good GMs, as they will know the needs and wishes of the players too, but are not safe from biasing on the other hand... Roleplaying means to be able to imagine a different character. Being able to understand another player is not far from that, I hope. And "constructive" GMs can also be good event leaders, from my experience.

Excuse my unsorted thoughts today... my summary: Our GMs are not the worst, most are quite engaged. Respect to their chosen job; I wouldn't wish to take it, though, my playing time is already short. ;)
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Sen on May 23, 2008, 10:10:16 am: Hello,

Im trying to split the questions up a bit

enforcement of the naming policy, disruptive behavior management, botting, harassment and other player-player issues:
I actually didn't have much gm-contact concerning these issues. I noticed that the naming policy enforcement seems to work; the disruptive behaviour of others is for me mostly a short term issue... if a gm would be around to take care of such immediately it would be great, for the rest it's either too late or hopefully handled by gms in the background.

bug exploits:
I liked the offered possibility of avoiding a ban last time; this was indeed very player-friendly. The same time Im strictly against the automatic 1year ban without even having talked (I think) to the players of the current issue.
If there are smaller issues of bug exploiting I just don't know how they are handled by gms and thus cannot give an opinion.

helping players with the game, quest testing:
Great from my experience, this includes some devs who are also very helpful (e.g. Rizin)

Summary:
I personally had only good experience with gms, thanks to all for their work. A wish would be more presence ingame (and irc?) for immediate help or reaction (Saying this independent from chance of realization).

Sen
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Taniquetil on May 23, 2008, 01:23:50 pm: Awesome idea with the survey. Surveys are always good. :)

What i would like to know is when and what did the GMs do to make everyone see them as evil? My experiences with GMs, as well as everyone else in the game, has been great. The only explanation i can think of is that people don't like power, but usually that feeling is not universal like it is here... In fact, the same is true with the devs....why?
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Caarrie on May 23, 2008, 02:09:48 pm: Quote from: Taniquetil on May 23, 2008, 01:23:50 pm
Awesome idea with the survey. Surveys are always good. :)

What i would like to know is when and what did the GMs do to make everyone see them as evil? My experiences with GMs, as well as everyone else in the game, has been great. The only explanation i can think of is that people don't like power, but usually that feeling is not universal like it is here... In fact, the same is true with the devs....why?

some people just dont like the gms as they do try to hold up the rules and can be harsh to certain people depending on what is going on. But overall the GM's are on the side of the players that are doing nothing wrong, GM's just want to make sure all can have fun and have no one keeping them from that.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: CrazyYlian on May 24, 2008, 07:17:45 am: Have only had 1 GM experience (outside of events) and that was quite positive. Can't really comment on how the team works together because I have no information (and that question on the survey does not have an 'I don't know' option... it really should.) The only times I've heard complaints, the complainer was lacking (IMO) credibility, so I tended to think the GM was probably on point.

Only thing I notice is they seem to be spread pretty thin.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Tuxide on May 24, 2008, 07:36:04 am: Hrm...I should probably mention that using the Help channel should not count as a GM experience, because non-GMs can become advisors.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Dajoji on May 29, 2008, 05:43:08 am: Did you vote yet?

Did you?

No? What are you waiting for? :detective:
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Xillix Queen of Fools on June 04, 2008, 06:52:41 am: This one probably deserves a sticky.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: theirah on June 10, 2008, 05:33:54 am: With technical stuff, say bug reports or getting stuck, I found GMs very helpful.

on the other hand....with enforcing rules about IC or OOC, I've found that there seems to be some bias. For some people, anything they name as IC will be considered IC, but with others, anything that they say is IC, and in my opinion, some of it is, is rejected based on general opinion of the person. I will not name any names tho.

For example, someone I know was called OoC because they spit on the ground in front of someone. someone else was reported for OoC for chasing someone after a guild betrayal. I find it kind of unfair that an IC betrayal, when the betrayed seeks vengeance, can hide behind a barrier that is OoC just because they dont feel like roleplaying being hunted. if you dont want to be hunted IC'ly, then dont do something that would lead to that IC wise...
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: LigH on June 10, 2008, 06:12:03 am: An action like "/me spits out" is nothing but IC.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: theirah on June 10, 2008, 07:34:53 am: o sorry, it wasnt just spitting out. it was I believe insulting the other person too. but it was in character, as in not having Real world curse words and such.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: LigH on June 10, 2008, 08:32:14 am: I understood you well... And roleplaying is not like "playing sunny weather all day". "Evil characters" have to act credible too. They have the freedom to do so. As long as they ensure that their actions are recognisable as IC.

And Game Masters should be able to recognise the nature of a conversation correctly. Like referees in a match decide about an "offside" or "foul" situation.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: theirah on June 10, 2008, 08:49:11 am: agreed. the problem is...VVV

Actions that may Constitute Harassment:

When Intention to Cause Grief has been proven, the following are considered actions of harassment:

Shouting IC/OOC insults or comments that are offensive or defamatory.
Following a player around, walking through them or standing or sitting close to them.
Flooding a player with trade or duel requests.
Competing with a player for a mob with the intention of causing grief.
Interrupting a specific player or group of player’s RP with IC or OOC comments.
Demanding that a player accept a challenge to PvP.
Posting or communicating personal information of any player and/or doing anything that may hurt privacy of other players in the game or the website of Planeshift.
Impersonating another player or any member of the development team, GM or game representative.

sorry if I seem kinda random, or out of it...I need sleep. but I have to study. which means I really shouldnt be on here....but I cant concentrate. because I'm sleepy.....I'll shut up now.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: LigH on June 10, 2008, 09:32:51 am: Well, of course there is half of the sentence missing: "... if the other character feels harrassed by such actions".

If both characters agree to such a behaviour, no GM should intrude.

If the threatened player states OOC that he doesn't enjoy such actions, the threatening player should stop them, or expect a punishment by a GM in case he insists in "causing grief".

Good players playing evil characters will know their limits. And they will know ways to create a consent with the opposite players before starting such actions.

Like in a good economy relation, there should be a first and second reminder before crying for lawyers. At least that was usual before dissuasions got abused as cheap source of income...
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: theirah on June 10, 2008, 10:03:02 am: yes, thats true. the problem is, I believe that this policy is used way too much, and prevents ingame consequences for those who betray, or kill, or so on ingame. if they dont want to be harassed for a while...go play another character. Besides...what makes a 1 time betrayal that could be a bigger event *better* than small annoyances over a longer period of time? if you get too annoyed...just hunt them back.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: citizen on June 10, 2008, 11:52:34 am: Quote from: theirah on June 10, 2008, 08:49:11 am
agreed. the problem is...VVV

Actions that may Constitute Harassment:

When Intention to Cause Grief has been proven, the following are considered actions of harassment:

Shouting IC/OOC insults or comments that are offensive or defamatory.
Following a player around, walking through them or standing or sitting close to them.
...

So Izzabella and the outlaws can simply take any place they want. They simply stay on the required spots for example in platinum mine and no one can go close the mine because it is harassment :0
Smart plan :)
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Sen on June 10, 2008, 12:27:27 pm: Additionally to the questionable name-calling (forum rules...) in this case I fail to see the connection between quote and comment.

If _whoever_ roleplays to take the platinum mine and has success and someone else starts to walk through them only to cause grief it is indeed harassment. Just as walking through others with the intention to cause grief is harassment in any other situation...

Sen
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: LigH on June 10, 2008, 12:55:49 pm: @ Sen:

I see the paradox situation:

- A group decides to make a roleplay to "take over a mine" by standing there.
- Miners decide not to take part in this roleplay, just because they are not interested, and keep on mining, even "through" the occupant characters
- The occupants call for GMs because they feel harrassed by the rock picks

Who is to scold now?

The occupants because they harrass the miners with their "enforced" roleplay?

The miners because they harrass the occupants by ignoring the play and not taking part?

Somehow I believe that we are getting far away from the kernel of this thread.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Sen on June 10, 2008, 02:04:56 pm: Sorry for :offtopic: - this will be my last one (I hope ;))

I agree to you LigH, I just have a few clarifications

First, the taking the mine is the difficult part and I don't know how to do that rp-wise and also from the point you mentioned; that several will just ignore all rp there. The same time I don't really believe anyone who roleplays would act like you described, regardless of the fact you are right with your point.

Lets assume just this happens - no side has reason to call gms or something like that. But if some miners don't only ignore the rp - what is their right - but start to annoy the rpers (those currently involved in that roleplay) just with the intention to annoy them this is harassment. What happened often enough to me are people who stop all own actions just to constantly stepping 'inside' my char and smilar things; maybe we take this example. And the originally quoted post said that it is harassment when the intention is to cause grief.
There I see the difference between our two ways we see the situation, the intention of causing grief. Therefore this rule can't apply to 'normal' taking over the mine from my point of view.

Sen
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: theirah on June 10, 2008, 05:25:51 pm: the problem is...how the heck do improve intent? Even Lawyers have trouble proving that in court.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Dajoji on June 10, 2008, 06:23:16 pm: Whenever there's IC mixed up with OOC it's always a mess. All GMs can do is damage control so we ask that the players/guilds involved stop all interaction, like with a two-way restriction order. If they break it, they get punished. Listening to both parts' explanations is only part of the process. It's easy to hide one's actions as IC but that doesn't mean there is no intention to harass. That is why you should never let these situations escalate. Most harassment cases we've seen are pure immaturity at play. Someone trying to get back at someone else because they left their guild or stole their mob. It's childish and a waste of everyone's time and energy. However, we are not about to be less strict in dealing with them because they ruin the gaming experience of the community and because every now and then more serious harassment issues may arise.

In order to determine intent, we can see if a player ignores another one's request to stop following them around, walking through them, competing for mobs, etc. We can see report logs and observe the situation. We talk to the players involved and review their history (previous issues with other players, etc.). Harassment is not dealt with lightly.

I cannot comment on the examples given by theirah in a previous post because they are out of context but I am sure there is much more to them than just the facts stated. However, if a player is not enjoying someone else's RP or is even feeling offended by it, they have the right to move on to something else. Does this mean they can /report immediately? No. You can report someone's RP when they break the Language and Content policy: no profanity, no explicit sexual content, no RL drug use. However, spitting and uttering IC insults do not automatically fall into that category. What the player should do is state their reluctance to participate and only if this wish is not respected should they report and file a petition. This has nothing to do with the plot but with not respecting another player's rights.

In the scenario posted by Ligh: if you wish to RP that you take over a mine, don't be surprised if people don't join your RP. You cannot force it on them. They are free to ignore you or declare that IC they are not really there. However if they interrupt your RP and start interfering with your IC actions, you can and should report them. One thing is to ignore another player, another is to disrupt their RP.

Now, back on topic: Have you filled out the survey yet?
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: LigH on June 10, 2008, 10:08:10 pm: Yes, I did...
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: screwballl on October 21, 2008, 08:17:30 pm: After multiple attempts to contact a GM ingame last night for an hour because I was stuck in the dungeon IN a rock... I got the "all GMs are busy" message over and over until it went to "please try again later"... I would try again... my only recourse was to kill myself after an hour of trying to get a GM.. and lost a few items I would have liked to have kept due to being over weight... After reading these forums, I learned to use specific terminology "Please help I am stuck inside a rock in the dungeon and unstick does not work"
Granted, they are mostly volunteers but the availability of GMs (and lack of actual help/response) is pretty poor. It should take 30 seconds to unstick someone from the GM perspective, and even with hundreds of people online, there should not be more than a 10 minute wait for a GM to at least respond to say "give me your coordinates and I will be there shortly".
Lately I have tried during the daytime (around noon, -6GMT) and there are never any GM on at this time of day...

Hopefully this will help the team see where there are some weak points that need improving.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Lanarel on October 21, 2008, 08:51:42 pm: The weak points may be in explaining to players how to contact GMs, and in educating them in the amount of work the few GMs are doing besides unsticking players.
From your 'all ... are busy' and 'please try again later' messages I get the feeling that you were not contacting GMs at all, but asking for help in the help channel. This channel is occupied by normal players who spend some time helping others. If 1% of all players does this, there will be one player in this channel when there are a hundred on line. It is not surprising that sometimes there are none. And if there are, they are normal players, so they cannot unstick you anyway.
Did you try '/who game' to find if there are gms online (again, not 10% of players are gms) to send them a /tell?
Did you use the /petition function to ask for GM help
DId you try on IRC if there really are no GMs online?

Hopefully this will help you see that a lot is done to make this game fun for all, that many weak points are known and do not need pointing out, and that demanding a 30 second response time makes all of us laugh :)
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: screwballl on October 21, 2008, 08:57:50 pm: No demands... but there needs to be a better clarification of the difference between "help" and "GM"... this is the first time I have heard that Help does not go to GMs and I have been playing for a few weeks now (had recent issues with a reinstallaion which was when I joined these forums)...
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Aiwendil on October 21, 2008, 09:02:44 pm: Aiwendil giggles. "Oh, it's stated in the in-game help somehow. Have a look at user commands -> /advisormode. Without that command I guess nobody would allow me to advice other players" ;D
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: screwballl on October 22, 2008, 03:17:30 am: This is part of the point I try to make elsewhere, that the lack of clarification 1) does not tell people HOW to ask for help properly and 2) is buried under 10 different clicks just to find one command...
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Pizik on October 25, 2008, 11:52:50 am: Hi, sorry for this delayed response (but hey, I am a GM ;op).

Sometimes we have coverage issues, your example of 12:00 -6 GMT would be rather bad on a weekday, US GMs are probably at work/college, and it is 6~am for European GMs. We do our best to present the best coverage we can with our limited numbers and the timezone differences but sometimes we are not around when someone particularly needs help. The best ways to contact us are exactly as Lanarel suggested, especially IRC as we may well be around, but doing something that makes idleing in PS difficult.

A MOTD saying that the help channel is staffed by players (and GMs when they are online, who will respond in /tell to you if they had seen your message) may be a good idea.

I offer appologies on behalf of the GM Team that we were not around to assist you when you needed us.
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Garris Shrike on November 04, 2008, 08:47:54 pm: Get some more U.S. GMs to cover the time zones not already had.

I think they are doing a great job though for the number. :flowers:
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: Edig on November 04, 2008, 09:01:37 pm: Quote from: Pizik on October 25, 2008, 11:52:50 am
I offer appologies on behalf of the GM Team that we were not around to assist you when you needed us.

Pizik,

There is no need to apologize. The last time I checked you all were doing an awesome job with the debugging, testing, writing, drawing, rule enforcing, and everything else you all do. I think most people forget that 90% of the time (or more in some cases) you all don't even get to play the game due to the overwhelming need by some player somewhere.

I have always found someone somewhere able to help at a moments notice. It is we who should be apologizing to you all for overloading you all.
/me bows deeply and with great respect to the GM team! (too bad he doesn't see the sword aimed at his neck.)
Title: Re: Game Moderation Survey
Post by: verden on November 25, 2008, 02:25:51 am: I have asked for help 3 times in the last month, and recieved prompt and courteous help within a short time. The GMs are overloaded, but I like the attitude of the GMs I have spoken with recently. Thought it was worth mentioning, there have been changes for the better there.