PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: piprees on May 26, 2008, 05:26:00 pm
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I know there are a few threads about the effects of death, and i may be being a little lazy on this but has anyone considered the death curse etc from a roleplay perspective.
Let me explain
At the moment, you die, you get sent to death realm, you escape and respawn - the curse takes effect and 30 mins later your recovered.
Ok fair enough but as thats the only penalty as we know its open to abuse and death is not much of a threat.
However "dying" and having your soul ripped form your body is a traumatic instance and there should be some long lasting effect and i belive there is one, one that does not include stat reduction beyond the curse or damaging items.
Quite simply and its been stareing people in the face - you lose your memory IE your progression points and random levels in skill.
If you die, you lose all progression points not spent and at random a varying amount of skill levels depending on how recently you died.
First time 1 or 2 skill levels in one or 2 skills, die again within a set time frame (say two hours) and the loss is more severe say double the effect 1 to 4 levels between 1 to 4 skills.
This allows death a more severe consequence rather than the "Time delay" it currently is whilst still allowing people a chance to recover from it by retraining.
Be good to see some feedback on this idea
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And what about people who are not fighters and gain their experience and progression points through quests?
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If there not fighters chances are they wont die that often and should be able to regain the progression points through other means.
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If there not fighters chances are they wont die that often and should be able to regain the progression points through other means.
Oh, death can come quickly even to those who try to avoid it ... one false step or an accidental crossing of an Ulbernaut...
And which other means do you have in mind? As far as I know there is only fighting and quests that give you experience points. And it is already quite hard to get progression points by doing quests. To loose even the slightest amount to some stupid accident would hurt badly if you consider that most quests can only be done once.
Sorry, it seems that you aim at the powergamers but it will hurt others, who gather their progression points much harder, way more.
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Ok fair enough but as thats the only penalty as we know its open to abuse and death is not much of a threat.
And people already complain about this penalty :P
However "dying" and having your soul ripped form your body is a traumatic instance and there should be some long lasting effect and i belive there is one, one that does not include stat reduction beyond the curse or damaging items.
As far as I remember the settings, your soul does not get ripped off your body. You get sent to the DR with body and soul in one piece
Quite simply and its been stareing people in the face - you lose your memory IE your progression points and random levels in skill.
If you die, you lose all progression points not spent and at random a varying amount of skill levels depending on how recently you died.
First time 1 or 2 skill levels in one or 2 skills, die again within a set time frame (say two hours) and the loss is more severe say double the effect 1 to 4 levels between 1 to 4 skills.
This allows death a more severe consequence rather than the "Time delay" it currently is whilst still allowing people a chance to recover from it by retraining.
For new players this will be kind of a hard penalty. A new character is usually pretty weak and will die every now and then. They will lose the skills and the PP's they earned and will puke from anger. Advanced players will also puke from anger, because at high levels it takes ages to get the needed pp's back pay high fees for the levels they lost and spent ages on training it again, only to lose it the next time they run into a glitch or die by lag.
I kind of like a varying range of penalties for death, but this is will only anger players. Alternatively one could combine the current system with your ideas, just not make em permanent.
Like lose stats and random skills for some time, bu have the char remember the skills again without the need of re-training them.
Also I could imagine a kind of GateKeeper NPC at the portal(s). Either pay a fee (depending on how much money you have) or leave an item behind, or solve a riddle...or all together? :D
Anyways, my two tria
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I've played months without dying once .. I don't think death comes quickly in this game if you know what you're doing. It only comes quickly if you take risks and do without thinking. On the other hand it's perfectly doable to move around and even progress without coming close to death.
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I've played months without dying once .. I don't think death comes quickly in this game if you know what you're doing.
Then you are way smarter than me. I just remember one incident where there was an Ulbernaut right on the road from Hydlaa to the Magic Shop. The only thing that saved me was that it already followed somebody else. Or one of my other characters was hunting Trepors, a Onyx Dagger came along...one hit...dead. Or climbing up in the Death Realm...lag came...missed a step...dead.
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Well i wouldnt consider dying in the death realm to add to the penalty at all, your already there.
In regards to the other matters be careful then - simple
Death isnt a small matter.
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Well, for me dying is already hard enough and you can believe me that I and my characters don't take it lightly. My characters don't have high strength, which means that I have to spent half an hour waiting for the curse to be gone before I can move again. Plus it is extremly annoying if you are an Enkidukai, as Ojaveda is quite on the other end of all the "interesting" sites, if you know what I mean. And no, even if Kaityra is in BD she wouldn't think of dying just to get back to Ojaveda more quickly.
As I have already said, the penalty you suggest aims at a different kind of player, so it is a "no" from my side, sorry.
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The penalty applies to all, and regards the spawn locations you mention, thats just as frustating for anyone no matter what race you are.
Being at the bronze doors and reappearing in hydlaa is no small matter.
I do understand what you mean about dying being hard, but at present the "sit and wait it out" just doesnt justify something so serious.
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If i remember correctly what i read in DR in books, then after a large amount of time spent in DR, someone was unable to exist outside it.
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Now what I'm wondering about - there are quests out there that require you to go to DR. There is at least one trainer in DR, so to advance some skills you have to die. And living with the curse afterwards is bad enough. I really don't need to die to train one skill to lose levels in another skill - or if your randomizer is considered maybe even levels of the skill I died to advance in the first place.
Did you consider this? Just wondering...
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Those quests would have to be reviewed with some form of amulet or protection or cure to the memory loss
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One other thing, eventually you will run out of quests to gain experiance, then it will come down to training and crafting, so the non repeating quest issue is immaterial.
What is the issue is taking due care not to die - the more careful and fearful of the threat of death you are, the more likelyhood honest players and good people will look after themselves and also not abuse the "/die" option, or challenge creatures beyond there capabilities - better to run away and live another day afterall :)
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Better to run? The other day I died for the first time since I started playing again (so perhaps a few days) after being gone for two years. I was just making my way back, and as I neared the end, on a narrow walkway, I get stuck for a few seconds, which was just long enough for a Wrathrat to kill me. The point is, it's not always possible to avoid things, simply because you might not even see them coming. That Onyx Dagger, mentionned above, is another example. As people have said above, a stat penalty is just too much. It's hard enough earning them, so why lose them so easily? I'd much prefer a material loss, such as having to pay a fee, for example.
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Quite simply and its been stareing people in the face - you lose your memory IE your progression points and random levels in skill.
trust me it was considered. a longer period of time for the curse was considered as well. drakku's curse is where it is for a reason. part of it is to keep the whining to a minimum. even then the uproar when it was introduced was tremendous. something on the level that you are proposing would be like... i'm not sure of the metaphor but it'll come to me. things sit where they are because that is where they best fit.
but that doesn't mean that such is ruled out. many things are planned(tm) for the dr, and some will be shown sooner(tm) then not.
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As the age of players is so high (compared with other games), I say that penalty should be high, so people ARE afraid to die. The skills taken is very good idea,. I just want to add, that removed level amount should be in percent, not in amount of levels. Because to regain say 5 levels at level 80 is much harder than than at level 5. So experienced players would be more scared of death. Another gain would be not scaring away new players, as they loose not lets say 5 levels and drop the game, but they loose say 10 percent of their gained levels. 10 percent for beginner to get back is quite doable. 10 percent of experienced player takes maybe a month. How many percent would be decided by GM, so they can see what amount works best.
Another thing would be desirable - when you die, you can be looted, but just for regainable items (buyable, craftable and not quest items, at least until player count in game isnt 5K ;) ). And be lootable by anyone in proximity, so in guild fight some items could be gotten back buy guild members. How about that?
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a bit tricky given that your are bodily transported to the dr.
besides if you weren't we could always bring back that old, and currently abandoned, death concept that a fatal feild surrounded you after you died. breaching the field meant that you died too. wuold have been cool to see a dead chain.
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Sorry, suggestions about loosing skills if you die can only come from powergamers and from people who have enough spare time to play this game for hours, IMHO. Someone who spends most of his time roleplaying or someone who is just a casual gamer does not have the time to regain lost skills that easily as the powergamers I see around so often.
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Ok, the bodily transportation could be delayed for some 10-20 seconds. Or that half an hour, hehe!!! Just joking ;) If nobody loots in that time, then all items stay on you.
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As the age of players is so high (compared with other games), I say that penalty should be high, so people ARE afraid to die. The skills taken is very good idea
nope it's not, imho. As others already said, every permanent loss of of pratice points or skills will be extremely frustrating and it will help nothing. Instead, one the following things will happen:
1. If you are a power-leveller and just do RP sometimes, you will most probably reduce your RP to regain what you have lost. After all, that is what pure powerlevellers do, right?
2. Weak characters will get extremely frustrated because they do not have many skills anyway and they will feel as doing the same thing over and over again (actually, this is what they will be doing). All in all, this would only drive many players away, I would say.
3. Implementing static effects will lead players to be more careful, but is this really what you want? It will make players only fight monsters they really know they can handle (If they know about that at all, and as far as I know, you need a certain amount of int to be able to know that).
This may a bit off-topic, but I really have the feeling that more and more ideas are brought up that demand changes just for the sake of realism. This is still a game, and as every game it should be fun to play it. Additionally, it is *not* a game that should be based on pure realism. If I want like to play such a game, I would choose "Sim City" or something like that. Each and every decision should be made on the basis, that most players have fun playing. Frustrating them without any real cause will only make more players turn away.
And a last remark about the death-penalty: In contrary to what it may look like, I have no problem with the way it is now. I had no problem with it when it really bothered me because my character was weaker. And I would also have no problem with a larger death-realm, maybe one with changing exits or something like that. But every permant removal of skills is (imho) way too much.
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The whining caused by the 30 minute time out is already too piercing for my taste.
We'll take it under consideration.
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The whining caused by the 30 minute time out is already too piercing for my taste.
We'll take it under consideration.
The penalty can be useful, when i were under its effect i was able to train some weapon on such NPCs which i would kill in an instant if have all maxed stats :)
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The whining caused by the 30 minute time out is already too piercing for my taste.
We'll take it under consideration.
return the person to the place they died from ie if you die in bd well you spawn there that would stop folks from abusing the /die
and keep the penalty perhaps shorten it. but still keep it
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The whining caused by the 30 minute time out is already too piercing for my taste.
We'll take it under consideration.
return the person to the place they died from ie if you die in bd well you spawn there that would stop folks from abusing the /die
and keep the penalty perhaps shorten it. but still keep it
Now thats a really good idea! It eliminates the gain shortcutting thru DR.
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The whining caused by the 30 minute time out is already too piercing for my taste.
We'll take it under consideration.
return the person to the place they died from ie if you die in bd well you spawn there that would stop folks from abusing the /die
and keep the penalty perhaps shorten it. but still keep it
Now thats a really good idea! It eliminates the gain shortcutting thru DR.
Yeah, really great idea. Let's asume you died from an Ulbernaut attack and as soon as you leave DR you are back to the same deadly Ulbernaut again. So you have to introduce a time when you cannot be attacked. Or you have died by hitting the cavern floor in BD. Are you sure that there is a way up from there? And list of things to solve certain drawbacks goes on and on... I prefer simple solutions so I'm still for spawning in a safe area and the settlements offer this more easily then any other place.
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Just eliminate the spawn points completely and create a long arduous dynamically generated path through to the burial wells. That way clawing your way out of the Death Realm really is a chore. This could be done by making a number of relatively short maps that connect randomly to each other with a small chance that the connection is to the exit map. If you are really lucky you might get out after the first map but 10 or more would be more common.
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Just eliminate the spawn points completely and create a long arduous dynamically generated path through to the burial wells. That way clawing your way out of the Death Realm really is a chore. This could be done by making a number of relatively short maps that connect randomly to each other with a small chance that the connection is to the exit map. If you are really lucky you might get out after the first map but 10 or more would be more common.
I can already see thousends of threads from new players with titles such as "Can't get out of DR...need help". ;D
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Well if you assign a map counter it would be pretty easy to put an upper limit on the number of intermediary maps you have to pass through. You could even have a weighting factor so that differing initial conditions result in different odds of hitting the exit map. For example the first time you pass through the DR when you are low level you are beneath Dakkru's notice and you have at most three intermediary maps, relatively painless. If your first trip comes after 100 levels of skill/stat training you are more noticeable to Dakkru and so have a maximum of ten intermediary maps. If you have the same number of levels as the previous example but you have been through the DR a number of times your maximum might be thirty. Other factors might work to reduce the increase the chance that the next map is an exit map so that although you might have a high maximum the possibility you actually need to pass through the maximum is reduced.
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The whining caused by the 30 minute time out is already too piercing for my taste.
We'll take it under consideration.
return the person to the place they died from ie if you die in bd well you spawn there that would stop folks from abusing the /die
and keep the penalty perhaps shorten it. but still keep it
Now thats a really good idea! It eliminates the gain shortcutting thru DR.
Yeah, really great idea. Let's asume you died from an Ulbernaut attack and as soon as you leave DR you are back to the same deadly Ulbernaut again. So you have to introduce a time when you cannot be attacked. Or you have died by hitting the cavern floor in BD. Are you sure that there is a way up from there? And list of things to solve certain drawbacks goes on and on... I prefer simple solutions so I'm still for spawning in a safe area and the settlements offer this more easily then any other place.
well that could also be solved by having 2 spawn points in each map in bd would be the entrance to that area. and the eagle head you just spawn to the closest point where you die.
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Of course you can up with solutions for any special case or drawback. But that was not my point. If you start to cover special cases with special "rules" the odds are that you will end with a very complex (and complicated) system, which nobody understands anymore and which behaviour becomes harder to "predict". The simple solutions, which cover all or most cases work best, at least when it comes to computer science in my experience.
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Of course you can up with solutions for any special case or drawback. But that was not my point. If you start to cover special cases with special "rules" the odds are that you will end with a very complex (and complicated) system, which nobody understands anymore and which behaviour becomes harder to "predict". The simple solutions, which cover all or most cases work best, at least when it comes to computer science in my experience.
So the conclusion: who needs dark way training, will suck.
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Of course you can up with solutions for any special case or drawback. But that was not my point. If you start to cover special cases with special "rules" the odds are that you will end with a very complex (and complicated) system, which nobody understands anymore and which behaviour becomes harder to "predict". The simple solutions, which cover all or most cases work best, at least when it comes to computer science in my experience.
So the conclusion: who needs dark way training, will suck.
Sorry, but I can't follow your conclusion, as I don't see any connection between my statement and dark way training. Could you please explain your conclusion?
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Of course you can up with solutions for any special case or drawback. But that was not my point. If you start to cover special cases with special "rules" the odds are that you will end with a very complex (and complicated) system, which nobody understands anymore and which behaviour becomes harder to "predict". The simple solutions, which cover all or most cases work best, at least when it comes to computer science in my experience.
So the conclusion: who needs dark way training, will suck.
Sorry, but I can't follow your conclusion, as I don't see any connection between my statement and dark way training. Could you please explain your conclusion?
You say any solution which takes into account many cases can become complicated. Probably that means devs will not implement it. So it remains as it is now. Everyone who enters DR will suffer curse. That means for those who need DW training there will be no option. So far, of course.
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I'm sorry, I still can't follow you because I'm not familiar with the Dark Way and its training. In which way is it connected to the curse?
But I think that you got my statement a little bit wrong. I'm not saying that nothing should be implemented but that we should look for (a) simple solution(s) instead of looking for many solutions each covering a special case.
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I'm sorry, I still can't follow you because I'm not familiar with the Dark Way and its training. In which way is it connected to the curse?
But I think that you got my statement a little bit wrong. I'm not saying that nothing should be implemented but that we should look for (a) simple solution(s) instead of looking for many solutions each covering a special case.
It nothing special, just a trainer for it is in the DR, so you have to go there.
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I'm sorry, I still can't follow you because I'm not familiar with the Dark Way and its training. In which way is it connected to the curse?
But I think that you got my statement a little bit wrong. I'm not saying that nothing should be implemented but that we should look for (a) simple solution(s) instead of looking for many solutions each covering a special case.
It nothing special, just a trainer for it is in the DR, so you have to go there.
Oh... and where did I state that I want to get rid of DR?
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I'm sorry, I still can't follow you because I'm not familiar with the Dark Way and its training. In which way is it connected to the curse?
But I think that you got my statement a little bit wrong. I'm not saying that nothing should be implemented but that we should look for (a) simple solution(s) instead of looking for many solutions each covering a special case.
It nothing special, just a trainer for it is in the DR, so you have to go there.
Oh... and where did I state that I want to get rid of DR?
Hm, who stated such thing?
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I'm sorry, I still can't follow you because I'm not familiar with the Dark Way and its training. In which way is it connected to the curse?
But I think that you got my statement a little bit wrong. I'm not saying that nothing should be implemented but that we should look for (a) simple solution(s) instead of looking for many solutions each covering a special case.
It nothing special, just a trainer for it is in the DR, so you have to go there.
Oh... and where did I state that I want to get rid of DR?
Hm, who stated such thing?
Hmmm...well...from which entry did you drew your conclusion then?
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Hmmm...well...from which entry did you drew your conclusion then?
Simple solution -> effects everyone the same way -> those who have to go into DR for trainer are somwhat discriminated.
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Hmmm...well...from which entry did you drew your conclusion then?
Simple solution -> effects everyone the same way -> those who have to go into DR for trainer are somwhat discriminated.
Ah, I think I can follow you now. If the only trainer for the Dark Way is in DR, people, who want to learn this Way, are "forced" to commit suicide to be able to learn it and they shouldn't have a disadvantage because of this.
Well, I guess the solution for this problem is indeed quite simple: Place a trainer for the Dark Way in the world of the living, too. :)
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Hmmm...well...from which entry did you drew your conclusion then?
Simple solution -> effects everyone the same way -> those who have to go into DR for trainer are somwhat discriminated.
Ah, I think I can follow you now. If the only trainer for the Dark Way is in DR, people, who want to learn this Way, are "forced" to commit suicide to be able to learn it and they shouldn't have a disadvantage because of this.
Well, I guess the solution for this problem is indeed quite simple: Place a trainer for the Dark Way in the world of the living, too. :)
Yes, thats exactly what i tried to say :)
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But training Dark way in the middle of the living world.. im quite sure people would be to happy if dark magic was been practised there im sure the guards may have something to say :P, Dark way is although not completely evil has some distasteful spells, those who wish to learn such magic must take risks to do so and death is one of them.
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But training Dark way in the middle of the living world.. im quite sure people would be to happy if dark magic was been practised there im sure the guards may have something to say :P, Dark way is although not completely evil has some distasteful spells, those who wish to learn such magic must take risks to do so and death is one of them.
Well, obviously you wouldn't want to put the teacher for the Dark Way right on the market place in Hydlaa. But a wizard in a far away cave or dark tower might be able to mind his own business without worrying too much about any guards.
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but where ever in the living world they may but some one would notice and report it thus the teacher of it wouldn't be safe, but in the death realm they would be completely safe would you rather not suffer a little from a curse then be put to true death for dark magic
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but where ever in the living world they may but some one would notice and report it thus the teacher of it wouldn't be safe, but in the death realm they would be completely safe would you rather not suffer a little from a curse then be put to true death for dark magic
Based on magic way stats description can't decide its all evil.
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Dark Way isn't evil. But it can be used for evilness... and so can, like, every other Way. People just stereotype too much.
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i didn't say it was evil, im saying people who are getting into it just a little to much, there is currently a trainer in the living world
for DW but he trains it to a "im just a little curious" sort of level. but people who are trying to master it could be a little dangerous
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Well it looks like his to me
Player need darkway training
/dies
Gets training
Comes back to life
looses half of what he learned
If this was implemented i will just move to the DR and stay there-no penalty then-
:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
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How about leaving the dead alone - they got enough freakin problems.Its not like they won the lottery or were handed something for free!
As a creature of yliakum my character accepts death and dr as a normal part of life. Death isn't the horrifying show-stopping experience that earthlings know it as. Rather its a huge inconvenience that typically coincides with some pain and suffering. But its not that big of a deal - in fact the pain and suffering is the worst of it.
Just my view...