PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on May 29, 2008, 09:44:05 pm
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Settings is considering marking some guilds as "Approved."
Before we do this we are curious what you, the players, think about this.
What benefits should having an "Approved" guild grant?
Should those guilds get a sticky?
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Would be nice to see what guilds settings thinks fits what they are working on the best, but other then support on the forum, I dont think they should get anything ingame or it will force people for ooc reasons to join these guilds just to get whatever extra they have received from settings due to being a "chosen one" .
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I like the idea, and I think you should indeed sticky the approved guilds. I agree with Caarrie, no in game benefits, except maybe guildhouses should be reserved for approved guilds? Not sure though, it could upset many people.
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From my experience with another game, I can only say: Don't!
"Approving" of guilds quickly leads down the slippery slope of being accused of playing favourites. It may not matter much now, but once there is anything implemented, that enforces any kind of competition, envy, greed and jealousy are likely to show their ugly heads. Remember: Social status alone can be something to fight for (and being "approved" can mean a lot in terms of status).
Also it will be very likely, that you waste a lot of time negotiating with guild about approval status. There will be those who barely meet the criterias and others who barely miss them, but feel that they are not doing any worse then the former (imaging going to kindergarden, asking the children to draw something and then reward the best pictures with candy).
Last but not least: Guilds change with time, as they loose and gain members. If you want to approve of guilds, you'll also have to think about revoking approval (back to the kindergarden metapher: Try taking candy from a child).
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What Irgendwer says makes sense to me. We do not want to have any bad feelings if we can avoid them. There probably is enough of that anyway. This is a game, let us all have fun.
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See now, that is just the trouble around here, can't do anything fun.
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I think some guilds should get the "approved" sticker, since it allows an enhancement of roleplay. Currently, guilds are limited in their actions since they can easily be accused of claiming things they shouldn't claim. For example, take a Laanx guild holding a sermon in a temple. Currently, they can't occupy the temple for the time the sermon lasts, theoretically, everyone could go and do anything they like inside the temple. Being "approved" would give them a certain claim to the temple and allow them to create a real sermon athmosphere, without others doing whatever they like. Approval of guilds would be something that pushes the game towards an authentic athmosphere. In return, approved guilds could get their own place within PlaneShift, like a guildhouse, or have certain rights like running their own mine.
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Sounds like a good idea in general, but I would also avoid granting any IG benefits. Also, approved guilds should be told from the start that they will be subject to re-evaluation and that their status may be revoked at any time should they stray too far from the settings.
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I would be in favor of it if it was completely automated within the guild system in game with clearly defined parameters as to what will prevent approval as well as what will establish it. The very most that human intervention by the game officials should be is explanation of those terms not understood due to language problems. The parameter should be in the form of a check list on the guild information screen available to the leader showing which positive requirements have been met and which negative blockers need to be purged.
If the officials are not happy with how it works out then they can tweak the parameters. Doing so would of course risk charges of favoritism. Doing anything incurs that risk too though so consult widely before you implement anything.
I do kind of wonder which current guilds might qualify for this status. I suspect the recent, lauded, religion based ones might. How many of the elder one would I cannot say.
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I think it is a good idea. Then the newer players can see what a guild has to have in order to be an "Approved" guild in game. I would avoid the IG benifits though. Something tells me that is just asking for players to start screaming favoritism.
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Approved guilds should be able to have some greater impact on the world. Maybe GM events could involve the guilds in some way, or NPCs could mention them as established parts of the world.
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Approved guilds should be able to have some greater impact on the world. Maybe GM events could involve the guilds in some way, or NPCs could mention them as established parts of the world.
then what happens if the guild dies or something happens to make it no longer a part of the game?
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Yes, it'd be a good idea but then somehow I think that there should be a benefit IG to it. That would encourage them to fall in line with settings.
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Approved guilds should be able to have some greater impact on the world. Maybe GM events could involve the guilds in some way, or NPCs could mention them as established parts of the world.
then what happens if the guild dies or something happens to make it no longer a part of the game?
Then they become part of Yliakums history.
However, am against this idea, just because I think the risk is too high that it will look like favoritism. Xillix, perhaps present some ideas which you have so far for the "approved guilds". Deciding on it might be much easier with information on how it could be implemented.
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It doesn't really matter if it looks like favoritism as long as it isn't. Devs should not hold off on good ideas for fear of alienating the over-sensitive.
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Perhaps 'approved guilds' may earn some special part in the settings themselves, such as being in a book in the library. If the guild dies, have it be, as suggested before, 'history' If the guild's ideas changed, have it written, "In recent times however, the guilds ideals have changed" blah blah blah. But If a guild is within settings parameters, and seems to be a fairly open guild (not secret or intended to be unpopular) or is an infamous guild (Thieves Guild anyone?) then perhaps some literature should include it. This might also help that guild with recruitment in a roleplayed way, for if there is books in the library, people may read about these guilds and wish to join them. Thenagain, that goes back to favoritism, but like Raken said, if it isn't, then there is no worries. The Developers are not playing favorites, they don't take their job lightly, so as long as they know they're not then we're fine. I'm fairly certain Xillix at least would not allow anyone to do something for a guild out of favoritism.
As a note, this would ALSO put these guilds under a certain scrutiny of the settings team and thus they'd have to watch where their history leads them and such.
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NPCs knowing what the guild is? For example my guild is a merchant syndicate, thus I might expect Mikana Trading Company and maybe Ervin Fromaad to know the name of my company.
Also, perhaps joining an approved guild might affect your faction. For example, joining an approved thieves guild might worsen your faction with guards. In addition, being in a different guild that is allied with this thieves guild might also worsen your faction with guards.
Would this imply that a guild has to have its own thread on the forums? Because there are many good guilds that refuse to have one here.
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A thread shouldn't be necessary strictly speaking, but it seems to me that it would certainly raise your chances of being qualified. And NPCs knowing about your guild and it affecting faction points seem like good ideas to me. I am against IG benefits, but these are not exactly benefits...
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Part of the point would be to grant in game benefits though.
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To those that say if the guild dies, it should be written into the history of the game, I have one point to make:
Since, the game has yet to hit 1.0, time as it were, history wise is t a stand still. Its the year 750, and next year, it will still be year 750. Or do you suggest the settings team try to work out this issue?
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I say yes to approved guilds. I don't think it would show favortism in any way nor would it make more players drawn to the guild for OOC reasons. Why I feel so is because with your guild actually being approved by the settings then you'd have a much harder time. You'd have to be stricter as not to go out the settings and I doubt you would start to mass recruit because you'd need to keep quality members. People setting a bad example while under the banner of an approved guild would just mess things up for the whole guild and I'm sure the settings team won't let a guild they approved run around wildly.
Sure there will be benifits. Why shouldn't there be for the guilds who base what they do off of the settings. Of course there will be a lot more work for anyone running or in an approved guild so it balances out. They will have a reputation to keep so I'd assume you wouldn't see them mass recruiting. I'd actually think that from worry of possibly losing their 'approved sticky' they'd be a lot stricter on who they allow in the guild, making recruition a much slower process.
Edit:
Oh and I was thinking more about the fact that more players would be drawn to the guild for OOC reasons. Kinda bad but at the same time I think thats good. If more players are drawn to working for a guild that revolves around roleplaying a certain aspect of the settings I see no problem with it. Sure, the original reason is OOC, however if they stay I'm sure that will change. If they only end up wanting to be there because the guild has special privileges I doubt the guild leaders will let them stay for fear of losing such privileges.
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Coolio, I am going to start a guild of goujah jockeys just to reap whatever benefits may come from being approved. Surely a scheme like this cannot fail! I have at least 5 accounts and at least one of my characters has the start-up money so it will never die unless there is a full wipe.
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What makes me wonder is if certain guilds get in game benefits, people may only join that guild because of the benefits. Not because of what the guild may stand for which is really why you should be joining that particular guild. How could this be prevented if it was decided that there would be IG benefits? Should guilds who are appoved have a standard time a person has to be apart of a guild for them to recieve benefits? Or would you have to be a certain status in the guild ranks? How would it work?
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Perhaps one of the criteria for approving a guild would be that they have a good screening method for people who want to join so they couldn't join just for the benefits, they'd have to belong.
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it is just an idea right now
I remember most of the community supported the vespers of laanx
to the point of paying them enough so they could afford to train and rp their charity non stop.
I just want the pros and cons to come out and people to suggest ways to do this successfully or help weigh the pitfalls of this.
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I remember giving all of my money to Vespers.... several times...
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I think it's a good idea, but as has been said, a dangerous one.
I think all that 'approved' should imply is that the basis and idea and values behind a guild fall in line with the settings, and thus further the overall atmosphere. That is a very 'low bar', thus it won't be hugely competitive, nor many accusations of favoritism possible. No number requirements (or very low, at best, say five or something like that); no 'alignment' requirements (beyond the general no hatred spewing, etc.); and so on.
As for benefits, I like the 'part of history' idea... there could even be a Guilds Records hall somewhere that keeps track of 'the famous guilds of Yliakum's past and present' or something like that. And of course there's the boost to notoriety... it isn't just some newbie who decided to 'make a guild!!!!111!!'
The big 'reward' for me, however, seems a case of simple logic. Right now, guild halls are -very rare- and a major part of the setting. An inappropriate guild somehow getting ahold of a guild hall would be a pretty big blow to the 'good' players. Thus, if you're going to 'approve' guilds in any way as saying they fit with the settings, then it only makes sense that they be the only ones allowed access to a guild hall. Not that this will cut down on the competition for them much, but that isn't really the idea, just a safeguard to make sure the still-precious guildhalls fall into responsible hands, without much in the way of accusation of favoritism.
I hope that all made sense to someone other than me... :sweatdrop:
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How about requiring approved guilds to give guild forum access to some settings members, for the purpose of giving advice on how they can be settings-compliant and whatnot? I know I'm just throwing this into the discussion, but something like this might improve the overall quality of the guild.
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Oooh splendid Idea.
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How about requiring approved guilds to give guild forum access to some settings members, for the purpose of giving advice on how they can be settings-compliant and whatnot? I know I'm just throwing this into the discussion, but something like this might improve the overall quality of the guild.
Hmm, do settings dev have that much time to read 10+ guild forums and give advices?
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What, a guild has to have its own forum now? Sounds completely out of character to me. How does that jibe with the settings? (http://web.ncf.ca/cr502/great_googley_woogley.gif)
So much for my evil plans.
Hmm how can I incorporate that into my jockey guild. Humbug I'll never be leet!
That is how this idea really appears to me: a new way to define Leetness.
I dream of the day when utter mediocrity becomes the height of 8)
/me steps off soapbox walks away in a hail of megara dumplings.
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Well, if I was a settings member, I would probably be more interested in if your current guild plans are settings-compliant than if your dog died IRL and you won't be around for a week. So I would probably be interested in a few threads than all of them. Perhaps on a per-request basis.
What, a guild has to have its own forum now?
No, I wouldn't think so.
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I think the idea there was 'IF your guild has a private message board, THEN you would agree to give settings members access'. ;)
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I'm all for approved guilds but start from the start and highlight the rules again, as well as write them down clearly.
There have been guild creation guidelines around for years but they were never enforced or even encouraged aside from Sangwa's and a few others' efforts to pat good ideas on the back. Making certain guilds approved will only be that, an encouragement for upholding the rules. Anyone who complains about favoritism, might as well go accuse a random judge of it.
Now I don't doubt that there are people who will whine and complain but there are always those people. Or people who try to abuse the system to gain something, like Prolix is oh so clearly doing now. :P
As for in-game benefits, I'd say yes definitely! However make sure they are benefits for the whole community and for the roleplaying atmosphere. Limit personal benefits for guildies only to something with no real edge like having a guildhouse, being mentioned in a "Summary of Yliakum Guilds" book or being known by an NPC or two. Other benefits, that actually do something, would be for religious guilds to hold sermons and bless people or things (or curse them in some cases). I would love to see Xiosia's priests bless the crops of farmers to yield a good harvest or Dakkru's inner circle lifting Her curse to those that are loyal. You can also tie them in with faction points to restrict their use and still maintain some game-mechanical control. Another benefit is for a crafter's guild to teach their crafting skills and the like, at a slightly lower cost than NPCs trainers. These are benefits that guilds would give out to the community and I'd personally much rather see them in the hands of roleplayers than NPCs.
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Yeah, and if there were, say, a guild of rangers, they could attack monsters OUTSIDE of parties in order to do their job properly without /telling and going through explanations with people who are dying from ulbernauts and trying to get into a group and then killing it AFTER the person is dead. Like I said, if there were some sort of ranger's guild out there. *Looks at his clicky signature* Oh.... Erm... :whistling:
Of course if this were abused there would be a way to submit a complaint OOCly to the leader of such a guild so that the member(s) in question could be dealt with.
Just a thought :whistling:
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I think that this can be a great way to encourage RP and provide guilds with room and motivation to operate. There are many kinds of guilds and in my experience, the ones that have more OOC benefits often outlive or out-recruit the strictly RP ones. They provide their new members with gameplay information like where to train what, how to get a certain cool reward, what to say to NPCs to finish a quest, etc. Those are all fine but in the end the guild ends up being more for the players than it is for the characters. RP wise, the characters may have nothing to do with each other and the guild itself may have nothing to do with Yliakum. Meaningless name, ambiguous IC purpose, OOC chat only, but hey, they can has spoilerz.
Anyway, with this idea, not only would guilds have to have an IC purpose to begin with but keep up with it and do constant work to maintain their approved status. With any kind of recognition there can be suspicion of favoritism like "oh, you got approved only because you're friends with the devs/prospects/gms/mods/etc...". But, as long as the process is kept transparent and consistently enforced, we can avoid corruption.
The way I see it is something like this:
- The guild submits an application on the guilds forum (it could be using the active guilds thread).
- Once submitted they have to meet certain RP parameters. It's not enough that they keep their content within settings but they also must have clear objectives, and address them with creativity so original RP and plots can evolve from it. Perhaps even new game content. Requirements could include things like a minimum amount of in-game time, a promotional thread, a guild website, and a minimum of 5 different active players.
- A rating process begins. The applying guild creates (or specifies) a forum account and a bug tracker account, that they will use for all their official guild posts. Moderators and testers assess their involvement in both forums and bug tracker, respectively. A poll is added to the guild thread for community evaluation. Forum users rate the guild based on the quality of the guild thread. Meanwhile, an in-game voting system is implemented. Perhaps through an official NPC who would work as surveyor. The players would then rate the guild based on their experience and the guild's RP. Or perhaps a /rateguild command can be implemented, something that allows to vote 1 time per account for unlimited guilds (/rateguild <1-5> <guildname>, and maybe /rateguild reset if you screwed up your vote or changed your mind so you can vote again).
- When the applying guild reaches a certain rating they are awarded the approved status. Once approved, the guild needs to get involved with the community and their status of approved is maintained through a GPA system that contemplates forum participation (moderators rate), bug tracker involvement (testers rate), in-game activity (players rate). This means that the guild is expected to do a monthly quota of testing, a monthly quota of useful forum posts to offer help and provide ideas for the improvement of the game, and organize RP plots constantly. Plots can be submitted to the GM team for revision. The team rates it and offers assistance, getting involved in supporting the event with things like extra mobs, rewards, NPC impersonations, teleporting, etc. Finally, players rate the guild's RP per plot. This can be done by the GM team. Once per RP, a GM can use a sort of /event query command, which automatically sends a message to all event participants to rate the event. Players then enter /event rate <1-5> to assess the RP they just took part of. This rating would only take place for the guild's main events, not their everyday RP and they would be expected to have at least one every 1-2 months.
- Every month (or so), the ratings are added up and a GPA is popped out. If the guild maintains a certain minimum, it keeps it's approved status. Not all ratings would have the same weight. In-game activity and guild events should weight at least twice as much as the other criteria, for instance. It can be defined so a guild that is extremely active in-game can make up for not being so active in other areas (forums or bugtracker). In any case, the guild will have to be active in order to keep a high score.
- A cross-department team of Settings Members and Game Masters can be in charge of gathering the data and following up on approved guilds. In the case of tester and forum moderators ratings, the team can query them as needed or we can work a system to make ratings easier. Finally, as they see fit, they would reward the guilds that maintain their GPA high with things like mentions in in-game books or NPC dialogs, GM events based on the guild's history and characters, etc. Guildhouses and other shinnies could be given out but only for really outstanding performances.
So, that's my two trias. Not an official post, btw, just my thoughts. Hopefully we can come up with a fair system that encourages RP and gives guilds an IC purpose as well.
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I am not sure that the bug tracker should have anything to do with this, Not all people or even guilds find bugs that they see the need to report or even notice. Overall the client/server is pretty stable and few issues are found on laanx most issues are found when digging in the code or in the lastest trunk client. Also not all Guilds are active on the forum as they dont have time. It is a nice idea but to require it will take away from the time they have to enjoy the game.
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Creating, leading and maintaining a guild requires time. Don't enjoy spending time there then don't start a guild but join one instead. :P
A lack of time to create and maintain a forum topic is not a good excuse in my eyes.
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That's why I'm suggesting that in-game activity have more weight than forum or BT activity. However, we want the guilds to contribute to the community as well. The "ideal" tester/player no only plays the game but uses the BT and forums as well, so let's reward that behavior as well. It will only benefit the community after all. Well, as long as their posts are useful, but that would affect their GPA of course so it's kinda self-regulating.
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Approved guilds should enhance roleplay, and not bug tracker activity. If a guild would be approved and receive IC benefits, the reason why would be OOC. Furthermore, a voting system isn't a secure way to do it, votes, especially on the internet, are easy to manipulate. Effort to enhance roleplay, however, is not easily manipulated.
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I have two answers for this question.
Yes, now: Well roleplayed guilds that hold true to the Settings should be rewarded. Simple things like being given guildhouses, mention in books and by NPCs, and perhaps approved and supported guild submitted textures for uniforms. At this time, I would grant no actual powers. However...
Yes, eventually. Eventually, true approved guilds should be given vast powers. The guild system in place is too simple to handle True Guilds. Look up guilds historically to see what I mean by 'true'. 'Guilds' in games are nothing more than big clubs for the most part, and most can barely be trusted to name themselves, let alone give them power over anything.
What kind of guilds would I approve for having ingame powers? True trade guilds only (yes, that includes the 'evil' trades). Other things such as political and religious organizations would also be able to obtain powers, but under a different way, since you can be a part of a Trade guild and both of those as well.
Restrictions: With great power comes... many rules. Approved guilds would become property of the Settings department and a tool for them to use, just like NPCs. Settings would reserve the right to advise and force changes in the guild, as well as edit its history. Trade guilds with powers would have even greater hurdles having to establish from the beginning what their intentions are, what trade they will be taking, getting their history approved before starting the guild, AND actually having to be a master in the trade that their guild will be focusing on. Trade guilds would also be restricted in what they can do and where they can practice their trade. People who get into a trade guild and advance to a certain rank would NOT be able to leave until a certain time passed. Characters would not be able to practice their trade outside of their guild's territory.
What sort of powers would guilds get? Certain ranks of Trade guilds would be able to get the materials and training needed to advance in their trade from NPCs at very reduced costs. Trade guilds could own and restrict access to such things as mines and other sources of raw goods, industry facilities, operating areas, and flying beasts (no other type of guild could own one). They could also affect the prices, quantity, and quality NPCs would buy and sell by bringing the NPC into their guild (based on Settings approval). Laws could also be affected by guilds, making them more or less lax.
As for the 'favoritism' counterpoints? Honestly, boo hoo, cry me a river. Anyone who can get their guild approved by Settings deserves to be favored.
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Approved guilds should enhance roleplay, and not bug tracker activity. If a guild would be approved and receive IC benefits, the reason why would be OOC. Furthermore, a voting system isn't a secure way to do it, votes, especially on the internet, are easy to manipulate. Effort to enhance roleplay, however, is not easily manipulated.
Approved guilds should enhance the game altogether. There's no reason why involvement in other areas should not be taken into account. The RP aspect is still the most important one and the voting is only part of the rating process. Using multiple accounts and other schemes to get an extra vote will only help you so much, in the end, the combined opinions of multiple participants determine the guild's score. The system would be vulnerable to some sort of exploitation, but its effects can me minimized. No system will be perfect and it's better to have one where despite a few players mAlting to bump up their GPA than to have one where only a few people decide who makes the cut and who doesn't. That's where accusations of corruption and favoritism arise. By combining different ratings and different areas of activity, we can make it transparent and whatever the guild does, they have to work for the approval not just say they deserve it.
For example, a guild wants to get approved so they create a number of accounts and start voting. Well, that may give them a nice in-game/forum rating, but there are other factors still, like the Settings review, which should outweigh the vote at that stage. So even if they get a 5 star in-game vote, if they are not of settings liking they don't make the cut. Later when they organize events, event ideas and execution outweighs the other aspects. It will be more difficult for players to mAlt while running an event so if some of them do it will not affect the outcome greatly and a GM would be present to observe. In the meantime, the quality of their posts and the relevance of their bug reports/comments are open for anyone to see, so the rating they get from moderators and testers cannot contradict the evidence. They are rather objective, in a way, and can be a bonus to the guilds. If a guild never reports bugs or uses the PS forums they just don't get the extra points. They could, they just choose not to. They are not being punished, they are just not being rewarded for something they just choose not to do. They can always make up with RP ideas however. A prolific RP guild will outdo one that only makes forum posts and spends little time in-game. In fact, such a guild would probably lose approval eventually.
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dajoji's post is exactly the kind of response we actually want here. Ways to make this actually WORK \\o//
As for favoritism, with me as part of the approval process I doubt favoritism will play in too much.
I have elsewhere on this forum spoke of what I do not like in guilds today from names to methodologies.
I also don't have any preferences and people can count on me to be coldly cynical toward all applications.
The purpose of these guilds would not be "fitting in settings" "manifesting settings" is a better term.
I encourage many more thoughts and concerns. I want to see and address all potential fears as well as incorporate any of the communities ideas.
This is ONLY a rough Idea, no rules have been sorted, no approval has been granted. We are brainstorming here, contribute if you wish.
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Lolitra wipes her brow after reading all this...
"I would love my guild to be an approved one... and would not mind it being the 'property' of the settings team, but my question is this...
If it becomes the property of the team, will they actively have time to input and maintain their input into the plots and subplots of the guild?"
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You want Settings approved guilds create them yourself. Make them an official part of the game and slap an NPC in charge that can be 'possessed' by a dev/gm/game official and have done with it.
This sounds like nothing more than a power grab by a disgruntled group of roplards. You want cynical -- I'll give you cynical.
Role play still has not -- can not be defined because it is entirely subjective. Much of what I have seen that has been touted as great role plays have been little more than tritely scripted mis en scenes outrageously overacted by wannabe thespians. Please do not ask me for specifics as they were ultimately forgettable and hence have been forgotten save for the impressions they left.
/me screams epithets at the now fleeing megara overhead, wipes the dumpling off his face.
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Of course an approved guild should get benefits, but they should also have duties, and both benefits and duties should make sense and add to the game.
In-game I belong to a guild of miners and crafters. Allow me to dream up some benefits and duties for us should we ever get an approved status, something that falls in line with game-lore and our own guild-history...
First we add a 'high quality furnace'. This furnace will be a bit different from other furnaces. It will work better than the publicly available furnaces in most ways(less slag, better quality, more XP and PP etc) but access will be restricted by the controlling guild. It will also need maintainance to give its unique benefits. To the controlling guild it will provide income and power but also demand constant attention.
If this is too much benefits for one guild there could always be a high quality furnace in each town, controlled by different guilds.
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Another reasonable suggestion.
And thanks to prolix for playing his forum character well ;)
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Approved guilds would become property of the Settings department and a tool for them to use, just like NPCs. Settings would reserve the right to advise and force changes in the guild, as well as edit its history.
Would that imply that guild leaders would have to sign the NDA? This is probably the only part I disagree with because this is only one way to achieve the desired result here.
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I like the idea of approved guilds. As a matter of fact it would provide great motivation for roleplaying guilds and it would change (hopefully for the better) Yliakum life.
After reading about this whole deal, there's not much I could add, but UtM & Dajoji's ideas vote ++
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To my knowledge there is already a clandestine guild with it's own secret hideaway, and other features set up by the game's mechanics. It has also been set up with it's own books and quests so presumably this is already effectively a settings approved guild?
My concern is UtM's suggestion... "Approved guilds would become property of the Settings department and a tool for them to use" - Would this not present the opportunity, for example, for said guild to be able to gain advantage over or subvert other guilds to their own cause - whether their players like it or not? Or is this part of the purpose.... :o
Ceraline looks nervously over her shoulder
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Are you sure you have a guild in mind and not a religion, which coincidentally has also been the basis for a player guild? The priviledges you mention fit a religion and any who belong to that religion, including but not limited to a single guild.
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I don't think there should be any real benefits, but I would definitely like to see guilds mentioned by NPC's in some dialouges. That would be pretty neat! \\o//
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Utm is overstating a bit. I would say more that guilds would subject aspects of their organization and nomenclature to meet settings' expectations for consistency. Also the guilds approved would play out some roles in events and the like to make the settings more manifest in the world.
An example would be settings writing sermons and having players use them and characters learn them so they become more dynamic on the lips of living people in real time.
Again the point here would be to give approved guilds in game benefits for meeting development/settings goals and the rules for this are tbd.
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I like this idea a lot. I think some of the rewards should be to be put in settings somewhere, because this would reward the roleplaying guilds that sometimes have trouble keeping up with more powerleveing guilds
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I love the idea.
Favouritism shouldn't be an issue if there is a transparent approval process, the only reason a guild who applied wouldn't get accepted is if that guilds background is incompatible with settings. I say, go for it XilliX xD
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I haven't read all of the posts here, but in general, i disagree with the idea of giving a "approved" status to some guilds and giving them in-game benefits.
I agree with the concept of giving benefits in-game to guilds based on stats of some kind. Guild houses can be bought, etc. The idea that some subjective criteria is used to bestow in-game benefits is, in my opinion, going to cause more problems than it solves. What happens if a guild gets "approved" and then does a complete 180? Will the guild simply lose their "approval" or will you also remove their contribution to the in-game world as well? This is a huge can of worms that is going to have significant unintended consequences.
Just my 2 Trias...
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With everything that still needs to be done on the game, I find it hard to believe this is even being considered. A month or so ago a poll was run to find out how to keep new players because the feeling was that there is already too much of an elitist attitude here, and now you want to promote that feeling? Seems counterproductive to this lost soul.
Looks like the decision has already made to do this, though, since you just want to find out "how" to do it. Gratz to the favored few.
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@MustangMR: This is not elitism. I don't think new players will be frightened off by some guilds having Settings' Approval. Why would anyone be offended by this? Please try and understand that we are attempting to have the Role Play environment by having things that players can control actually effect the world.
@Mythryndel: What problems can this cause? Sure people might whine if they don't get approved, but that's not a big deal. If an approved guild does a 180, then yes, their approved status should be revoked. Contribution to the IG world as well? Personally I would say we leave it the same, and just stop updating the NPCs on their actions until they get it together.
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Nothing has been decided yet and something like this requires good ideas in order to work so that's the purpose of this thread. Many players feel that their contributions cannot have an impact in the game and in order for that to happen they have to apply for any of the PS teams. But this initiative allows regular players to actually make a difference by creating guilds that are outstanding in their approach to the settings and that can make a better community with their RP. It is not something that, if done, would be based on whether the people in charge are friends with the applicants or not. The idea is to see if something like this is viable in a transparent and effective way. If you see a potential problem, stating it along with your assessment of its severity helps. That way we can see if there's a way around those problems.
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I agree with the concept of giving benefits in-game to guilds based on stats of some kind. Guild houses can be bought, etc. The idea that some subjective criteria is used to bestow in-game benefits is, in my opinion, going to cause more problems than it solves. What happens if a guild gets "approved" and then does a complete 180? Will the guild simply lose their "approval" or will you also remove their contribution to the in-game world as well?
Firstly, 'stats' are a somewhat OOC way of deciding such benefits, which is entirely against the point of approved guilds. Approved guilds reward those guilds who roleplay, and whose guild's history and such are within settings boundaries, such as not having some past that includes some non-existant creature. I'm not sure how guilds suchs as the Royal House of Purrty would fare in this, as their guilds are from places outside Yliakum, but as it has been said before, there ARE other places than Yliakum. Dermoria for example, is one such land. So a land called Printh could indeed exist.
Anyways, back on the real topic. These benefits to people will not only enhance the roleplay, but also make OTHERS strive to have a more settings-compatible and roleplaying guild. Planeshift does not make it a rule that you must roleplay, but it is highly encouraged and roleplayers have a lot of support. If people need to be bribed to RP, so be it, at least they will try it and then maybe they'll like it.
As for my ideas on how to make it work? Well simply, we set up some sort of 'committee' of a few devs/GMs and make this part of their main duties. They set up a thread in the guild forums and have an application form for guilds to fill out. They fill it out, post it, and then the 'committee' would check it for such things as 'history/background' and their 'goals' to see if they are compatible with and totally inside the settings. I know Xilly will hate me for it, but then each form would have to go through Xillix for final approval. Only ones which the 'committee' approved would go to Xillix, and Xillix would recheck. This could prevent favoritism, as Xillix will not show such a quality. I happen to have known Xillix in planeshift before he was a top-notch Settings leader, and I'd say we were.... I dunno bout friends, but certainly friendly. And Xillix wouldn't do more for me than he would for any non-noobs. Of course, only non-noobs because, death to noobs.... right. Anyways, Xilly'd be to busy to pick favorites :P And even if he did he'd be the type to pick favorites BECAUSE they're in settings.
Benefits would of course include the NPCs knowing the guild (possibly members?) perhaps some special access to places unavailable to the public (winch >.>) And possibly specially placed guild houses (in ideal places for the guild). Many other things could be also added as well, but I am not going to state every single idea I have. Would take years to finish posting :P
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Jees. If people feel their contributions cannot have an impact in the game then maybe they are not contributing to the game. Maybe they are just looking at themselves in a mirror.
I think there is a distinction to be made between contributing to the game and contributing to the community. Here is a difference: If I were to create a jockey guild and you decide to include it as an approved guild (purely hypothetically, now) who owns the rights to it? I created it, can I refuse to allow you to take it over?
If I am on the team or participate by posting on the bug tracker that is freely given and I expect no compensation. That is contributing to the game.
What I do in the game as part of the community is mine. Is there somewhere, anywhere that allows you to take my creations and claim them for yourself legally? I brought the name bilbous with me when I came and created his character, can you take him away from me? I guess you can but is it right?.
Sure you can say I am getting carried away but the established means for having an impact on the game is to join the team or using the bugtracker, to a lesser extent post on the forums. Now if you want to entertain bug tracker feature requests to have user created content added to the game on a case by case basis that is another story. I do not agree with the developers just slurping up whatever creative content they like arbitrarily.
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Slurping up creative content would not be the intent.
As I said, UTM overstated things a bit.
I think words like guide are better than own. A guild would submit itself to direct settings/gm guidance, this would tend toward the constructive as relates to events and such.
Example: "Paladins of Talad guild wants to take out the Onyx Dagger" settings and gms could help set up such an event between approved guilds for the entertainment of people associated with each, or onlookers.
Example: Settings desires that the religious orders be made more "manifest" in the daily lives of the players. Settings sets up the religious guilds with guild housing in fitting places and grants some tria or items to help facilitate a perpetual role play of those faiths contingent on the guild members following guidelines and criteria established by the gms/settings team.
No, we are NOT settled on doing this. This is merely a proposal. I am only shopping for ideas.
Some have suggested the game grows boring to rpers . . . this is just one maggot of a thought whose intent is to help address that kind of thing.
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So would it be acceptable to say that the team is considering relaxing the rule that gms do not participate in player RP events and that this is about how best to go at it, if indeed it should be done at all?
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It's not really that GMs participate in player events, it's more that players participate in GM events.
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When players request GM assistance for their events, all we can do at the moment is offer advice in order to avoid favoritism. Rewards, teleportation and all other GM powers are off-limits when it comes to plots created and hosted by players. However, if the approved guilds idea gets through, it might open the door for GM/dev involvement, after all, the guilds would have to meet certain standards and the events they'll need our help with will have to be approved just like any other GM event.
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Thank you for further explanation. I think that this initiative is pretty clearly expressed now, notwithstanding submissions from us in the 'peanut gallery.' Perhaps this idea can be posted as a feature request on the bug tracker. That way something might get done, isn't that what we are always being told? :D
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I always find it funny how many ideas are offered unsolicited, but when we ask for Ideas we get to hear crickets.
More ideas, what thoughts are there on "fair" ways to potentially pursue this?
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Here is an idea: Make an internal list of what types of guilds you would like to approve in the order of preference then have a contest for each one, maybe three running at a time, with the best submissions winning the approval. Prize would include setup fees, guild page space, general control of day to day actions subject to specific restrictions required for official use. A guild house, advance availability of new content for in game testing purposes. The restrictions could be along the lines of head office edicts to the local chapter's boss, i.e. relative autonomy locally but still subject to the organizing principles. New content might be extra rooms, crafting equipment or similar content.
I would think that if you are going to go down this path you would want fresh guilds that you have some control over rather than trying to fit in existing organization of which current owners will feel protective.
I have previously tendered my reservations, this post assumes they will be dealt with and this is how it might look if you go forward.
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A famous quote applies more often than not... "Perception is reality". What it means is despite the way things really are, you have to deal with other peoples perception because for them it is reality. Regardless of all the good intents to encourage one type of game experience, you will have to deal with the idea that you are showing favoritism to one group of players. Xillix through out a few examples of how an approved guild could benefit by new game content.... what about all the other guilds? Why aren't those events available to every guild in the game?
If you want a suggestion on how to make it work, scrap the idea of "approved" guilds and instead focus on a game mechanic that can be available to every guild, events that have to be completed by the guild and not just random members on their own. Develop a system that lets a guild work towards a goal.
For example:
1. The game GM's devise a series of quests that are designed for members of a guild... any guild.
2. All Guild Leaders can check an in-game posting, a bulletin board open to everyone say. This posting will give clues to how to start the quest line.
3. In order for the quest series to be completed, the guild leader will have to have signed up to it. After that, all members of the guild are allowed to pursue the quest. Only members of a guild actively working on a quest will ever see any of the quests.
4. Quests are accomplished in sequence by any member of the guild.
5. When all the quests are done or the guild has reached the last part of the quest line, an event is triggered by the Guild Leader to maybe spawn a boss mob, or any kind of encounter that you feel is appropriate for PS. Boss mobs have been done to death, other things can be done.
6. The rewards could be gold, items, or even titles for the members of the guild. Or perhaps a guild board on the forum or in-game that tells of all guilds achievements. Maybe the first one to complete the quest gets an in-game area dedicated to them, a plaque or something.
This would be fair and open to everyone, would remove any kind favoritism, and then the only thing you'd have to deal with is non-guild members saying there is extra stuff for guild members, but the quests should be designed to be accomplished by a group of people, and not a solo player.
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I am inclined to agree with MustangMR, for the most part. I think the "approved" guilds thing is going to cater to one group and alienate a lot of others. While I understand that PS is a RolePlaying game, it has mechanics for a reason. I am not trying to start this flame war AGAIN... just wanting to point out that all types of players are here.
As to using stats to choose guild abilities... this is NOT OOC. You wouldn't hire a scrawny person who can barely pick up 20 lbs to be a firefighter. There are physical attributes needed for the task, namely the ability to carry me out of a burning building. If a guild has a certain tria intake for instance, they could be given control of a handful of merchant NPCs. There are plenty of other OBJECTIVE criteria that can be used to assign duties, responsibilities or privileges to guilds.
As for rewarding RPers and giving them some control of settings or the like... I still have not gotten an consistent answer to the question of "what is RP?". This is going to be completely SUBJECTIVE and players are going to cry foul at every turn. People that don't just sit in the tavern all day are going to get upset that lazy layabouts that can't even bother to get skills to back their RP are getting rewarded and they aren't. I am talking from the perspective of those complaining, not that I am implying that RPers are lazy. I'm pretty sure. :)
I personally think that there are much better ways of giving players a chance to have an impact on the game. The biggest, and most important in my opinion, is merchants of some kind. (I know Xillix... i will not say anymore on this in this thread). There are several other ideas I have posted in other threads.
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Mustang your idea has merits on its own but does not fit into this discussion.
I kind of WANT to favor certain types of guilds and bring elements of the settings into the game in a living way.
"Approved Guilds" are one POTENTIAL means to this end.
I would literally be requiring these guilds to embody elements of the settings and rewarding them in a way that is different and separate than the way that players are rewarded for engaging the mechanics.
There can be little argument that a great deal of work has gone into making many things for the people who enjoy the mechanics aspect of the game, this proposition, even if badly named, aims to address the needs of rpers as well as the settings team.
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My main point is that instead of trying to officially approve guilds and have them be a part of the settings by default, let all guilds work for that honor, and have an equal shot at glory and the rewards that come from it. My suggestion was just one way to encourage that. All guilds can earn the rewards, but only the first one earns the prestige of being part of the settings. Approving guilds can cause a lot of unintended side effects that I feel will hurt PS more in the long run, and I would bet that if you did build a system similar to what I suggested, a significant part of those settings and effects would go to the guilds you would have given approved status to anyway.
But just some ideas. I do disagree with the basic premise of this thread, so sorry if it feels that I'm hijacking it. I'll be blunt (what a surprise), I already feel PS is being built by the few for the few. I haven't been playing PS much lately for that reason. I have no vested interest in if my idea was to be implemented because I'll probably never be a part of it. When I read this, I nearly just closed the page and said forget it, but I thought I would at least voice my opinion. I totally agree with the desire to make the players more involved in the story and history of the game, but I think there are other ways to do it that will encourage PS's player base to grow instead forcing it into small groups.
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Well, PS is a game from roleplayers for roleplayers. And they are indeed a small group. Mechanics are supposed to support roleplay, and nothing else. Concerning MRMustangs ideas, I am inclined to disagree. Approved guilds are supposed to create roleplay, however, quests limit that roleplay to the specific guild.
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mustangnr I did not oppose your idea, I suggested it does not fit into mine, there must be some nuance missing to how I am expressing myself (or you have not read the whole thread) I am trying to propose a means of having non gms play "official" ROLES that I need filled. This is not about favoring guilds or friends. It is about rewarding good role play with a role in the actual story of the game. What you have suggested could well have a place in the game, but the way you express it would attract people who enjoy mechanics and carrot and stick type progression.
I need someone to play the priesthood, actors, that would be around a lot of the time acting out their parts.
I need someone to play the gaurds, actors, actors that would be around a lot to "police" the game.
I am in no rush to get to this goal, and as I keep reiterating no decision to do this has been made at all.
THIS IS ONLY AN IDEA.
I hate "rpers" and "plers" equally, I assure you!
Donari also overstates things, it must be remembered we want people to role play, which I will define for you as playing a role. Right now there are few pre defined roles people can fit into, so you see a lot of baseless "godmodding" and the like.
Granting some well defined roles, with a transparent process for how to attain such a place, and a consistent means to review whether these groups are doing so perpetually seems a worthwhile endeavor.
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You're right, Xillix, maybe I missed a nuance in the 5 pages of posts. What you just described is much different than the starting premise of approved guilds. Sorry, I am trying to be constructive.
The way I interpret the problem though, is how do you get an official story-line to the players, when multiple guilds are each running their own story. Bringing in players to play defined roles is a great idea. I still feel dealing with it at the guild level is the wrong place though, for the reasons stated throughout this thread. How about dealing with it as in real-life? Post for job positions the way you just did? Positions could be posted on the forums or in-game. In-game would be ideal, forums being the easiest. Requirements for the position include having them submit their resume on how they would play the position. The settings team could use the resumes to see which players would best fit what they want to do with the game world. Once a selection was made, the player would be sent a supplement to their role and what knowledge they would have as that role and some guidance on what is needed.
And if I repeated something someone else submitted already and I missed it, my apologies.
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Well then why not have regular elections for government positions? Or have a corrupt appointments secretary for the octarchs? All I know is it sounds like a lot of oversight work for game officials. In a perfect world it is a great idea but I think the reality will leave a lot to be desired. Some players will work out masterfully but they will most likely be outnumbered by duds. Of course you can give those great players more roles but that will have diminishing returns.
It sort of sounds like you want to abandon the classless theory of character development and replace it with 'roles' to be played, unofficial roles as far as game mechanics go but will your priests know only cooking and no magic? Will your rat catchers know only blacksmithing? I do not think that would work.
You will need to develop skill requirements for the various positions you seek to fill. If you do not have these skills you cannot play that role. Perhaps that would be a first step: defined roles and the requirements to play them. Then if you want only player created guilds to run these positions you can look at the guild membership to see how well they fit the requirements you have developed. I still say it would be easier to start your approved guilds from scratch and do your recruitment carefully.
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I need someone to play the priesthood, actors, that would be around a lot of the time acting out their parts.
What you are looking for then are "Player NPC" and not approved guilds. Of course, PNPC of a certain type could still form an organisation, but regular guilds would/could not bicker for the prestigeous "approval tag". It's still a bad idea, though.
Alone reading this thread should give anyone an idea what will happen, if approval is implemented on a "guild upgrade" basis. So far I have seen lot's of "Gimme, I want!" posts, even though there is not even a clear outline for the feature. Appearantly, the perceived prestige that comes along with approval is enough reason for people to want to have it. Problem with status symbols: They are only worth something, if they are rare (would you want a porsche, if everyone had one?).
People will always be jealous if someone else has status. More so, if they feel, that this status is not deserved. Ever listened to office talk? The kind of talk where a female co workers got their raise for raising something else? That is pretty much the type of badblood, that can be expected in PS, if regular guilds/players get approval.
The only way, I can remotely see, how this thing could fly would be if PNPC are alts and rolebound. This means, that the chars in question are created by the settings team with a fixed background and fitting stats. Maybe even with limited GM powers (being able to attack and be attacked without consent, teleporting out of the deathrealm, (spawning of items)). Those chars would reside on special and never on regular player accounts. Not playing the PNPC according to it's role would mean it gets reassigned.
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Xillix... It sounds from your last post, like you are describing a concept I have proposed in another thread. I called it jobs or careers. I suggested it for different reasons, but the end result is the same. You have Players that can make a life for their character as a miner, as a crafter, as a town guard, etc. They could apply for the post similar to the current quest system and would gain status as they complete tasks over time. I wholeheartedly agree that if there can be more Player involvement in the running of Yliakum that the game will feel more real to the Players. Eventually, it would be nice if there were NO npc generated weapons (barring drops from creatures). All weapons would be crafted by players and sold to new players directly or by merchants like Trasok.
EDIT: To think in terms of game mechanics, You could make some minor modifications to the trainer/quest mechanics to make an NPC able to determine a particular characters fitness for a job. For example, verify that you have a weapon and require you to bring them X rat hides to be a level 1 town guard. In order to be a level 2 guard you would return to the same NPC and bring better weapons and X tefusang hides, etc. For mining this could be done by asking for X Tin ore, then X Iron ore, then X silver, etc.
I tend to agree with some of what I read that this should be handled at the player level, not necessarily the guild level. It may well end up that if you have 20 priests, that they form a guild and coordinate who will take sermons on what days. This is a good thing, but doesn't keep a new priest from filling in just because he/she isn't part of the correct guild.
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bah,
Go back to being bored.
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Ever heard of Kada? I didn't get to meet her but I sure have spent a good amount of time in her pub. In a way, this would give players that same chance to make an impact in game content. I don't think it would necessarily work on a "Character Wanted" basis but more like if a guild is RPing something interesting the game can make room for them, even when that wasn't contemplated or specified in the settings. Be it a pub, a market place, a museum, a university, a court house, a prison, a temple, or a playground, it's the guilds initiative and how they approach the settings that inspires new and unexpected directions for the project.
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Loving this thread :D read a lot of posts and loved them all. I particularly remember what Dajoji said on page 2 or 3 of this thread. the bulleted point form on how a guild can be approved. After reading so far i just wanted to post on something i didnt see . Maybe i didnt read one or 2 posts in the last 6 pages (afking a lot here while reading .. busy rl lol) .
I like this idea of approving guilds. However so far from what i have read, approval is based on keeping in line with settings. So the benifits of an approved guild could be in getting gm participation in making thier guild hosted events more fun (spl effect support maybe).
I am hoping before guilds are approved the guild system mechanics are tweaked. In case the situation of a guild leader changes ( has real life issues and cant come online ... or suddenly the power and popularity changes his behaviour) then the guild should be able to have a internal council system that can allow the the guild to continue to function. Maybe a new concept of a guild council leading a guild rather than a singular leader. That may allow for guilds to allow to be active longer.
To reduce new 20- member guilds from cropping up maybe only 50+ member guilds(and soem other benchmarks like minimum 5 people online at any time), can get the council system. well soemthing like that. What concerns me is that an entire guild depending on one leader who for unforseen reasons cant function as a leader may lead to an approved guilds death. If soem game mechanic tweaks are made .. it may help improve longetivity of guilds, reduce numerous seasonal guilds that are formed and die in less than 6 months. This may help the guilds creating a richer rp history of themselves and a rich tapestery of inter guild politics and dynamics. Keeping in mind that most of them will eventually try to be in-tune with settings would make approving of guilds easier.Also if certain changes are brought into guild administration, it could reduce the number of 'seasonal guilds' and bring in more concreate rp-goal-based, longer living guilds.
I love the ideas so far. But i feel if these things are addressed before implemntaion of apporval of guilds. Once we see a consolidation of guilds and the advent of new towns, maybe a "home-town'. Please note the exmaple ebing told now is a future end goal idea.. which could be achieved eventually.
The Example-- Hydlaa can host 2 caravan(merchant + martial rp goal type) guilds due to the winch + 1 religious guild(due to temple)+ 2 maigc guild (magic shop, magic garden)+ 1 scholarly guild (cos of library)+2 martial guilds (cos of arena and winch near it) + 1 profession guild(having weapon and armor repair,alchemists, herbalist, enchanters mostly )... while.. Oja can host 2 caravan (due to merchant district) + 1 religion (due to temple yet to come)+ 1 profession guilds( cos it has lots of shops) +1 crafting guild (crafters and miners due to forge and mines nearby).
The example is just an idea how the game can limit guilds in game in the future when we do a wipe and stuff.. and also to promote active guilds by setting preconditions for being allowed by one of the cities (in future ) to host them. If certains conditions are not met over time like members reduce below the minimum needed or number of people online and number of hrs online lower than minimum neededcould lead to a one month probation by the city to allow the guiolds to fix themselves thru merging, recruiting or playing more. This would help merge settings and inter guild rps better.. eventually leading to a more riccher rp and in game 'immerssive' experience. well just an idea of the possibility. it may take a long time as many small steps needed on the way.
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A lot of constructive ideas \\o//
Mine is rather simple:
Introduce approved guilds/players who respect the settings. Don't give any rewards.
A very annoying and frustrating task to sort out players who I can roleplay with and those who don't respect the settings (yet). I already once proposed to introduce a roleplay fraction which shows up in the description and makes it easier to find good roleplayers. Approved guilds and players would make this easier. To know that you are an approved player and to recognise other approved players should be reward enough in my opinion.
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I like the idea of approved guilds only in the extent that these serve to tell people the guilds are approved as being setting compliant. No benefits should be brought about, other than maybe the participation in GM oriented quests.
In short, giving rewards for no apparent reason makes no sense game-wise (since the benefits would make favouritism an issue) or roleplay wise (rewards don't rain from the sky.)
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Heh, what if I took a guild that was approved by
the players
the gms
the dev team
and told that guild they were officially sanctioned to run the faith of laanx
then I gave them:
A guildhouse
A monthly performance based stipend for guild operation.
Money doesn't have to rain from the sky, Settings governs the Octarchy, the religions, the guards, and in short, the SETTINGS.
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A guildhouse? no, effectively the same thing behind the closed door in the current temple? sure.
Performance stipend? with what specific measures or at this point even generic qualifiers for the stipend? Not a big problem IN THEORY.
It kind of seems to me that any such officially sanctioned guild would need representation for a majority of around the clock. What good is it if Laanxites can only expect services from 3-5 pm GMT for example? What does that say to the rest of the players. What happens if two or three players from the same time zone qualify to run the majority of the sanctioned guilds?
If you decide to go this route you will need to be very careful.
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No, you people misunderstand. What XilliX is saying is that if there isn't enough community support for his idea (which there isn't) then he's just going to force every guild to do a mandatory name change until every guild name is settings-compliant. This may include Dark Empire since we don't know if imperialism exists. This means no more silly names for powerlevelling guilds and no more kingdoms from faraway, unheard of places. I can live with either reality since RP will be improved anyways.
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That sounds like a good idea to me, actually.
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/me chuckles.
So instead of approving guilds, you just make every guild meet PS standards, thus having all guilds approved and equal. Brilliant! :woot:
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/me chuckles.
So instead of approving guilds, you just make every guild meet PS standards, thus having all guilds approved and equal. Brilliant! :woot:
Is that possible? And what standard? :P
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It would be no more difficult than enforcing naming standards is today.
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And what standard? :P
The standard of the settings :P
Xillix: I'm sorry, but I don't know how easy it is to enforce naming standards. Is that obviously very easy to enforce, or was it a sarcastic reference to a bitterly debated subject?
I like the idea of every guild fulfilling a purpose to the settings, but there will be some problems. What will set about one guild full of vallient warriors from another guild of vallient warriors?
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What sets one football team apart from another? They all have identical goals and lifestyles. The only way you can tell them apart is by their colors. The only real difference is their following. Your question has the same answer. It is not unique pasts or grand objectives that make guilds great. It is the people that they consist of.
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Naming standards are currently enforced on a case by case basis, mostly due to reports, I believe. There can be many different ethos or justifications for similar groups that are possible within the settings. For example you could have a volunteer town guard for each town or even several, each named for or by their founders. Their purpose and makeup could be virtually identical with recruits going to the leader whose personal style suits them best. Each town could have a volunteer fire brigade and none need be directly connected with the one in the next town. You could have a local magic practitioners guild for each town or a global guild dedicated to any particular way of magic.
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And what standard? :P
The standard of the settings :P
I asked, because to my knowledge, there are a lot of different interpretations of the settings.
Example: Some players agree that Hydlaa is so heavily guarded, that every act of violence on the streets would be observed by guards and hence an assassin would be arrested immediately. Others think it is sufficient to step behind Kada-El's to avoid being caught.
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There's a little hidden alley right near Kada's. It looks and feels like the kind of place where you can get away with a lot of things. I've seen a couple of other such locations around Hydlaa as well.
Not every place in a city is safe, thus I'm one of those players that thinks if it's hidden from guards, then in most cases you can get away with things in certain places around Hydlaa.
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The only problem I find with your line of reasoning is that people have different idea of what "hidden from guards" means. I've seen people killed below "empty" guard towers.
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well...it is kinda hard to remember to look right below you when you are accustomed to looking far out.
kind of like the missing whats right in front of you thing
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Hmmm, good point, although I don't think a logical person would kill someone under the guard tower.
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You'd think there would be someone close enough to the door to hear what's going on.
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Heh, what if I took a guild that was approved by
the players
the gms
the dev team
and told that guild they were officially sanctioned to run the faith of laanx
then I gave them:
A guildhouse
A monthly performance based stipend for guild operation.
Well this is quite different then. This is not what I had in mind when you say "approved guilds" which I consider guilds that have been approved because they have a good quality and are compatible with the settings.
Money doesn't have to rain from the sky, Settings governs the Octarchy, the religions, the guards, and in short, the SETTINGS.
However if you're capable of helping these approved guilds while respecting the above condition and applying it to every other guild out there, perfect. If a guild of followers of Laanx gets picked by the Government, everyone should know of that choice and why the government chose it over another guild. I also think that guilds supported by the PS Team should be controlled by the GM's closer than the rest.
I think it would be unfair for every other Laanx guild out there trying to compete with the guild that got picked, but that could happen in real life too, when governments for some reason decide to give benefit to only one religious sect.
It just wouldn't make sense if, for instance, the Dark Empire/Royal House of Purrty/Outlaws got approved and received a fund a Guildhouse for free when it isn't in the Government's interest to provide with such for these initiatives.
This could be a good help to have some government(blackflame, dakkru, rogue)-attached guilds to set up standards. But it would suck if we suddenly got approved guilds like these spawning from everywhere (all sides: government, blackflame, rogues, etc.) and making nomral player-run guilds a joke by comparison. I don't want to be wasting time making a guild about Laanx when there's already one that pwns me in all ways (For isntance the guild about Laanx would only be sided with the government, never with rogues who could get their own Laanx cult thingy. Rogues shouldn't get an approved guild with funds as well [even if it could be explained by the settings], or there would be nothing left for the players to create.)
Concluding: I think that this type of approved guilds should be used by the PS Team as a way of guaranteeing high quality in some major important guilds (Government-Official Laanx and Talad religious sects for example, agendas programed by Blackflame, an underground net managed by some rogues, etc.). For regular guilds (i,e, the rest) a different kind of approval should be installed that merely means the guild is okay towards the setting.
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Sangwa: I don't think XilliX means officially sanctioned by the government, I think he means officially sanctioned by the Settings Team.
But it doesn't matter, if there isn't enough support for this "Approved Guilds" idea then he'll just forget this and force mostly every guild to go through a mandatory namechange like I said earlier.
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Like I said, money doesn't rain from the skies, so it would have to be explained somehow. These guilds would need to be sanctioned by either the government or any other non-played organization. The purpose of the Settings Team is to improve the settings' consistency and quality, and it's easy to understand that a having guilds around that "magically" get guildhouses or "magically" get funds isn't consistent. It's simply silly.
I think the best approach to guarantee guild quality is to require that all guilds are approved. I've said this before, the GM and settings team should work together to make sure guilds are consistent. But the naming isn't the only concern. The structure and history are also very important. But we'll get there eventually. The interest in this topic is already a sign that we're improving. The way I see things, there should be some sort of Guild creation application, rather than the silly 20000 tria fee.
It would demand more of the GM's or Settings Team, but it would be the best approach at assuring guilds don't come out with silly names, histories or impossible structures.
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Demanding more out of the settings and GM teams isn't something to be taken lightly. They get paid just as much as players do, remember? :P
Money can come from anywhere, Sharven may devote some temple funds to a guild that is well devoted to Laanx. Zak may see fit to invest in criminal guild. The Octarchy might want to increase trade and so give a merchant guild a boost. There are always ways to explain it.
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While there is a theoretical source of money -- the mints on level 3 or 4, is it -- money really does come from nowhere in the game. There is an inexhaustible supply of critters which drop various loot which is either money or salable or both. Most games are like that. What difference does it make if the game officials decide to do some targeted spending?
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Exactly. I was just explaining the obvious: the settings team won't be throwing money around without reasons.
And about demanding more from the GM and Settings team, I don't know their level of demand right now, so I can't tell. If they can't handle it, they can always recruit more people. The amount of work required for this isn't inhuman. Guild applications should require:- tria (hopefully more than 20000...);
- 5 members required;
- The name of the guild (has to be valid or the rest isn't even read);
- 50 words about structure (gets deleted automatic if there's more than 50 words)
- 50 words about history.
- A system that allows to formulate these applications.
Imagine you get 100 guilds application each day. You'd waste a maximum time of 5 minutes (considering you're a really slow reader and thinker and that it takes some time to open the application) with each post, summing into 500 minutes = 8,333 hours. If you have 8 GM's each will only take about an hour to get this done. The day has 24 hours, fortunately and the applications can be taken care of progressively.
I also doubt you'll ever get 100 guild applications in a day. The number of members required + the tria require would make it necessary for almost 500 different people (some people might log with different characters, or make the guild several times until they have no money) to log in a day.
This is the worst case scenario and I don't see it as very demanding. The PS Team probably has more information about the number of guilds usually created in a day and I bet it doesn't get to half of the value I stated here. Of course this wouldn't solve every single problem, but it would exclude right away the most evident mistakes without ever having them out.
EDIT to answer Prolix: I think we have enough inconsistency already :P.
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50 is so very minimal. If it gets deleted with having more than 50, some people might not be able to explain something important, and ultimately their guild idea will sound like poop.
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Thats just structure. I think the idea is fifty max for structure, fifty minimum for history, which sounds fine to me.
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I can explain the Dark Empire in 50 words and it isn't even a guild. (This is not an example of what I'd let pass, since the Dark Empire isn't a guild, but an organization.)
Structure: The Dark Empire is an organization of several guilds where the members are placed in a transversal hierarchy of three levels called "Councils." It is also divided into Forces, each pertaining to a field of action (magic, war, intelligence and knowledge). - 41 words
History: The Dark Empire was founded by a diaboli as an effort to create a community of ambitious spirits with rules autonomous from the Octarchy. It's shady reputation has seen it through many trials, but it has always sided with the interests of the government. - 45 words
You just need to know what to highlight. Obviously people will be able to hide some stuff or lie, but at least this type of stuff won't pass:
Name: Troops of Mordor
Name: Herias
wrong ->Structure: Herias imitates the style of the mafia. The Godfather, which is the boss, sends his orde--
History: Because of the lack of order amongst criminals, Herias Guild was installed in Hydlaa by Fargurson, as an attempt to gather under his banner criminal minds of talent. Besides being chased by the Guard, the guild goes without much trouble.
Name: Eyes Without Sight
Structure: The structure of this guild is pretty simple. There are no ranks and everyone can be invited, however everyone must respect the "orders" which are a monthly decree of things the members have to do or else be banned.
History: Tervir, a friend of Talad's, once had an idea. "Man, it'd rock if we had this guild where we would give out orders without anyone knowing who is the leader."
EDIT to add example:
Name: The Finest
]
Structure: In tis guild u hav 2 blong --
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I do not really understand why you want to have a history. If you are creating a guild and paying the money to register it, presumably to the government, it has no history because it doesn't yet exist. The only historical guilds should be the ones that have been around i.e. you build your guild and over time it gathers its history. Change that to background and my case falls apart as you can put in the reasons how the formation came about. Nitpicking, I suppose.
Still most guilds are created because someone wants to have a guild, it is all very out of context to begin with. I maintain the guilds in the game should be official constructs and player clubs be without in-game support except possibly for persistent group channels. I do not like anything about guilds but I know I am in a (very small) minority here. ;)
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I do not really understand why you want to have a history. If you are creating a guild and paying the money to register it, presumably to the government, it has no history because it doesn't yet exist. The only historical guilds should be the ones that have been around i.e. you build your guild and over time it gathers its history. Change that to background and my case falls apart as you can put in the reasons how the formation came about. Nitpicking, I suppose.
Still most guilds are created because someone wants to have a guild, it is all very out of context to begin with. I maintain the guilds in the game should be official constructs and player clubs be without in-game support except possibly for persistent group channels. I do not like anything about guilds but I know I am in a (very small) minority here. ;)
The history would more or less be of the person who's forming it. Say, what happened that would make him or her want to form a guild.
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I suppose the history of the guild would also have to be "approved by Settings".
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Prolix is right. It should be called Background and not History, since the guild is being created. A sort of flavour text about the guild. Yup, makes sense.
EDIT to add:
About the number of applications per day, the people in charge could fool around with the requirements (tria required + members required + some new requirement) to assure a smaller flux.
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I think the free website hosting Xordan is offering in this post (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24366.0) should be given to guilds which have been approved by settings.
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It's Xordan's space, he should be the one deciding who gets them :p.
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Well... you would say that :p
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A guild more inserted into gameplay settings would make the game more interesting, I think. However "favoritism" would fall into play when more IG benefits are handed out.
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I favor any guild that abides by Settings lore. I don't see a problem with it. The entire game favors people who have endless time to grind mobs and mines. About time roleplayers get favored by something.
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Never expected to hear that from someone besides me.
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I too would love to see favour to guilds that abide by settings....
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About time roleplayers get favored by something.
This isn't much though, unless it is moderated. And I've gotten some resistance from moderation members when it comes to enforcing consistent roleplay.
Also, roleplayers shouldn't be just favoured; they should be the only type of players. Hence why I believe guilds should be checked for consistency right on their generation, rather than allowing guilds that are created by people who ignore the settings. And then we need moderation to make sure they don't deviate from their initial path. Awarding money to all or no guilds is the exact same thing, since it creates a fair ground for everyone.
I think what I'm saying here is that we'd better settle with having, or trying to have, every guild approved than creating a system that divides the players into two types: roleplayers (a.k.a. favourite) and non-roleplayers (a.k.a. the non-favourite). In a roleplaying game the latter shouldn't be around, and in a game players should always be of the same type: the one that has fun. This without mentioning the bother that it is having the favourite and non-favourite squabbling over money.
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[..] enforcing consistent roleplay.
[..] roleplayers shouldn't be just favoured; they should be the only type of players.
While I pretty much agree with whats stated here, as well as with approving some guilds will at the same time give off-setting guilds a valid right to exist, we mustnt forget that Planeshift may, if at all, -encourage- roleplay, but no way wants to enforce it! As said often enough already, Planeshift is not a pure roleplaying game, its a game where mechanics-testers, roleplayers and levellers all do have equal rights, are they interested in setting and background stories, on exploring exploits and glitches or determining max stats and skill levels. The only official agreement seems to be "Try to avoid ooc talk in main". And even here theres no enforcement but still a more or less vague "try".
Right that lack of Planeshifts definition I see as a problem to set up something like this thread here is about.
If indeed roleplaying will remain 'unenforced' and just one more option among several ones, then I may tend to in fact split it as said initially: Out of all guilds, reward roleplay focused guild with something supporting their roleplay. Generally I would at least create 3 groups, "lawful", "outlaw" and something like "others" (dont discuss the naming, you get the picture). The whole concept though would have to be as flexible as possible, treating each guild and its idea individually, otherwise created guilds will tend to be all clones, trying to receive those 'rewards' or benefits.
The given rewards of course will have to be fitting the guilds purposes, rewarding a guard-like guild with magic wands because they are special and fancy would be pants (like dlayos dropping wooden staffs), rather rewarding them with common Enforcer Shields for instance would be like fitting.
If on the other hand Planeshift one day may be defined as a pure rpg, then all guilds will have to be conform to the setting, approving few only an absurd approach. Unless you would want to have few guilds to support the setting actively, like a guild "Sunshine Recruits" or "Black Sparks" (Flame..) for instance. But since at once many applications will pop up, more than one of them promising, it will only end up influenced by favoritism by the people in charge and cause trouble (nothing to complain about, but favoritism will always occur with people deciding, willingly or not).
However, Planeshift getting a precise and unambiguous definition to be an rpg I seriously doubt. So I cant see a way for both options: Certainly splitting guild-types into groups approved/not-approved will to be too much of a definition Planeshift being a Not-only-RPG.
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Guess I'll start madly making settings specific guilds among my alts that never get in game so they can reap the benefits even while off-line. Lets see now Freenet allows me unlimited temporary usernames so I could easily create 100 or so new game accounts just from that, how many guilds will that allow? Sure there is that 20k startup fee but a couple days mining platinum or killing humanoids ought to pay for a few. Then the new benefits will pay for the rest!
You can hardly deviate if you are inactive. Now I am unlikely to actually do this but someone might so it is something to take into consideration.
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I think that inactivity may lead to them loosing benefits that would be taxed in the IC mechanics - perhaps?
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Till the garden.
Plant the seeds.
Do nothing else.
And end with weeds.
In other words, nothing given, nothing gained.
*edit* I would do things were you had to maintain something in order to gain any 'benefits. I'll give some -possible- approved guild types and benefits, and show why inactive alts would be pointless. Note, these are in no way official, just my ideas.
NO approved guild would be created by the 25K and 5 members rules. The creation would be much more complex, possibly similar to Character Creation. Then it would have to be approved by members of Settings.
Any approved guild -may- be given a guildhouse. I would charge a continuing tax on the building. Failure to pay results in fines or eviction.
Mining guild- You can own an exclusive mine. You have to be active in order to use that mine, and have to pay taxes. Defaulting on payment revokes ownership.
Same for blacksmithing, ranching, fisheries, caravan routes, etc.
Guard guild (rent-a-cops)- Gives your guild members the power to do 'guard' actions, such as attack without challenge. Strictly enforced guild rules and olny one guild per town. If your numbers are too low (inactivity) or you get a bad reputation (abuse of powers, which would be seen as IC), the city (Devs/GM) revokes your charter and disbands your guild.
Thief type guilds would have similar powers. However, no player could own a thief guild, but would have to join an existing Settings guild. Why? Try to start a crime ring in someone else's territory and see how far you get. :devil:
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Do you mean to suggest taxes will be more than income? I suppose property taxes might be in addition to income taxes but not every approved guild will be given property will they? If they are there will certainly be a run on housing or a limit on guild approvals. Who is to say that Klozie's Knitting Circle needs more than one room with comfy chairs, four hours, one day a week in order to qualify. Guilds are not very well defined are they? I could put any number of similar guilds in a guild house without too much trouble. I could have one guild that is a community-minded land-owner guild that owns guild houses and rents out rooms in them for other guilds to have meetings in. That would be within the setting would it not? It might qualify for a free guild house. Certainly a little more definition is in order.
Maybe I am being a little obtuse.
Plant weeds and get wildflowers... all in ones perspective. A natural look is more environmentally friendly than close cropped lawns.
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But of little use. ;)
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Really? Many plants with medicinal benefits are among what are commonly considered weeds. Personally I would rather wander through a meadow than across a lawn. Now this is all very metaphorical and to ones taste but I really have little use for most of the guilds as are currently in the game. The members seem to have a use for them and I do not begrudge them that. I am of the opinion that some things give benefit just by their existence and they add color while doing nothing.
I guess the main point I am trying to make is that this initiative seems to be a make-work project for GMs. If my guild members do nothing but sit in their guild-house and swap lies how are the arbiters going to know if they are active? If you want to reward people who hold events and engage the community do not require the guild structure. It is completely irrelevant to the object. Guilds as they are implemented are completely out of context. You can strap antlers to a dog but that does not make him a reindeer.
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[ooc comment = suddenly I thought I was in gardeners corner... not planeshift.]
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Thief type guilds would have similar powers. However, no player could own a thief guild, but would have to join an existing Settings guild. Why? Try to start a crime ring in someone else's territory and see how far you get
This does not seem right. I would think that in a mercantile-centric society it would not matter what kind of guild you tried to create some long established guild or other would claim the territory and try to muscle you out. After all the guilds have a distinct say in the government and some upstart is trying to gain influence. If you are going to do that for the thief guilds then do it for them all.
After however many hundred years I think the system would be pretty rigidly defined. Now if you are going to distinguish between real guild and player guilds then it would not matter if you create a thieves guild, it is more of a gang than an actual guild. If you pay the proper respects to the actual thieves guild they will let you pick the crumbs off the floor.
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I favor any guild that abides by Settings lore. I don't see a problem with it. The entire game favors people who have endless time to grind mobs and mines. About time roleplayers get favored by something.
\\o// \\o// \\o// \\o//
*Orgonwukh cheers*
\\o// \\o// \\o// \\o//
Great! What I always try to achieve! A mixture of using game mechanics and roleplay.
Let game mechanics reward training your skills and settings reward your roleplay. :D
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What is with the attitude towards people who don't use PS as a 3D chat client? "The whole game is designed around levelers and...." This is a GAME. Of course it is designed around GAME MECHANICS. If your idea of RP is sitting around chatting to people playing make-believe, perhaps IRC is a better fit for you.
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/me tips over laughing.
You obviously don't know me and have a very limited view of what a 'game' is. '3D chat' is and always has been the last thing on my mind.
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Mythryndel, please do not insult the RPers, it's not nice. I think you'll find that most RPers DON'T just sit around chatting, most of the really good RPers have already leveled their characters to a level that suits them. RPers tend to use both mechanics and "3d chat" (as you call it). The game was not designed for ONLY leveling, otherwise why on earth would they bother making a /me command, and marriage system, and gestures like /smile and /wave?
That issue aside, please lets get back to what we're here for, and don't veer off topic again :).
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Not trying to insult anyone. I am just tired of people getting so exasperated when people actually use the game mechanics. A lot of people on the forums lament constantly about how there is no RP left.... these PLers are ruining PS... mining should be banned... you name it. The game is not that skewed to be honest. I personally do a balance of leveling and RP and questing. I don't see PS being ruined by people actually playing the game.
Back on topic, I've stated already that I would like to have players be able to have an effect on the game, but I don't think that approved guilds are the way to go about it.
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Strawman argument. No one is saying the things you are accusing rpers of saying. Use mechanics by all means, but don't solely play the game to make that little list of numbers attached to your character continually grow. Just buy a calculator instead.
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What if your character likes to learn? anything, everything, etc? though some branches more than others.
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My character likes to learn as much as he can. That is why he spends a good deal of time in the library.
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I am not making a strawman. I have read those exact words from this forum many times. I was paraphrasing at least one of the arguments of someone who posted recently to this topic even. I do not mean to imply that ALL RPers are that way, but there are many of them that are very vocal on these forums.
But, as I said already... I would like to be able to have players affect the game world, I just don't think the proposed "Approved Guilds" concept is the right way to go about it.
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Around these forums, I think of the concept more like a red herring. Maybe we could call this the "burning a straw man to cook a red herring" argument. Either way, its done.
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I was reffering to the notion that mining should be banned. That is the most absurd thing I have heard yet around here and I have heard some pretty absurd things.
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Sorry, but it wasn't that much of a stretch from the criticism i have read concerning the plat mine. If it isn't the plat mine, then it would be the gold mine they would complain about because people would be "grinding" there instead. If the Gold mine was removed, like the plat mine was at one time before, it would become the silver mine that people use to "grind" their characters and forsake the most holy RP. Can this detour die yet and get back on topic or does someone else have to have the last word?
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Everyone who says mining should be banned lacks creativity. There are ways to implement a mining system that promotes roleplay. And you should think about these systems and discuss them, not go around ranting about how bad everything is. Find solutions, and don't whine all the time.
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Roleplay shouldn't be rewarded. It should be the source of fun. If people don't roleplay it's because it's not fun. That simple. How can we make roleplaying more fun? We get everyone into it, then we go about making it better. Currently we still distinguish, in a Role Play Game, from Player and Role Player. That distinction is ridiculous and disruptive. Hence why I think all guilds should be approved.
I think it's a great idea to have guilds that are supported by the settings. However, there should only be a limited amount of these and only in situations where the Settings team feel its utterly required to have a grip on what goes on. PlaneShift already leans heavily on NPCs and the like and we shouldn't make GM's and developers the only ones responsible for providing good quality roleplay (which they currently don't, as far as I'm concerned.) Normal Mining and Mercenary guilds shouldn't belong to this list, as it would turn everyone else's Mining or Mercenary guild into a useless venture.
Organizations like the main cults of Laanx and Talad, town guards, road wardens, important roguish enterprises, etc. could benefit from this as they'd be a lot more fun with players within giving some orientation. These guilds should be just enough to guarantee that Yliakum can live on its own with or without players while allowing the existence of many options for players to explore in their group projects.
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I just had a thought... the proposed approach to allowing players to affect setting is kind of a top-down concept. I think what might be easier to implement, and in a way that is much less prone to bias would be the following:
1. Identify what areas are lacking or need to be implemented.
2. Create a NPC or group of NPCs that will help accomplish the desired outcome.
An example that I see right now (yes, i know i have said some of this before)
Example problem:
There is a serious lack of crafted weapons.
Possible reasons for the problem:
Lack of desire by players to mine the required ore.
Lack of sufficient metallurgy skill to create ingots/stock
Possible solutions:
Create NPCs that are able to sell required items for crafting
Create NPCs that are able to sell the ore/ingots/stock sold by players to other players
Allow players to have a real house or store with a NPC that would buy components at a price set by the owner
What i see gained in this example is the following:
1. less grinding for those that are not inclined to do so.
2. Better support for player crafters that don't want to also be miners.
3. More time in-game that can be devoted to interacting with players because of time saved while doing their characters job.
4. Larger supply of crafted weapons available in-game.
This means more up-front thought, but addresses each individual area of concern for settings without requiring characters to be associated with a guild and without players being able to cry foul or accuse favouritism.
Some might ask how this relates to settings or players affecting Y'liakum... Crafted weapons are something that ONLY players can create. These are a tangible item (to our characters) that changes the way the world is. Other crafting professions could be helped by the groundwork for the example as well... think custom armor or clothing. If the devs keep to the arguments they have right now concerning weapons... custom clothing and armor will also only be available from player crafters. This is a good thing, but will likely have the same issues of players not using it to it's full potential.
please understand that i am not saying this specific example will fix all the settings problems. It is an example of identifying a problem and finding an appropriate solution that achieves the desired result. Sorry if this is bit hard to follow...
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(I apologize in advance if this is considered an improper 'bump'.)
Even though new, I would like to throw my opionion out there regarding this and related issues. My suggestions might be considered off the wall, but I have put some thought into it, and have some experience in the workings and drama surrounding similar institutions in other games.
I think there should be "approved guilds" in PS - but not in the sense that any of the existing guilds should be 'selected' or 'chosen' for receiving some kind of 'stamp of approval'. As many have mentioned, it is far too easy for this to come across as a kind of favoritism, and 'guilds' as PS knows them now can display a certain degree of instability. Instead, I think there should be officially sanctioned municipal guilds for each of the major crafts created by the powers that be for the propagation of those trades for the good of all. While the municipal council (headed by the Vigesimi of Hydlaa, perhaps) would be responsible for the founding of these "approved guilds" (the number and nature of which should be directly connected to the craft possibilities in-game), the posts within them - president, treasurer, consultant, etc. - should be open to players. The bylaws of each guild should be adaptable, yet adhere to a basic framework set out by the municipal council for all guilds in general (for example, perhaps requiring that democratic elections be held to determine the assignment of posts).
Further, I think there should be guild houses located in Hydlaa (being the largest city on the upper level), perhaps even in their own district. The governing body of the guild should be required to 'lease' the house from the city for a regular fee for a limited time with the option to continue the lease indefinately. Guild houses should always remain property of the municipality. However, the houses themselves should not be 'static'.
Guild houses should start out as 'standard', e.g. 'modestly' decorated buildings which can be 'upgraded' (through the application of new skins) to reflect the status and prosperity of the guild. Three or four 'upgrade levels' should be sufficient to provide incentive and common goals for the guild administration to work towards. These 'upgrades' should cost a hefty sum, collected either through guild membership dues, through the sale of guild surplus goods, or a combination of both, should be payable to the municipal council, and should also increase the amount the guild needs to pay to the city to maintain their lease. If the new lease amount cannot be paid, then the house should be 'downgraded' to reflect the loss in status and/or wealth.
Having such "officially approved" guilds would more fully integrate the concept of guilds into the game: they become public institutions instead of 'clubs'. Of course, certain guilds - such as a rogues guild or a thieves guild - should never receive municipal support. But that certainly doesn't mean they can't continue to exist. Nor does it mean that independent guilds cannot continue to exist outside of the "official" system of guilds. But - just as in the real world - they would be faced with certain difficulties if they wanted to compete with the bigger, more well established guilds. Would the established guilds enjoy a kind of monopoly? To some degree, yes. But monopolies such as this are 100% in-context for the level of civilization PS is set in.
Such guilds could jump-start establishing a large-scale virtual economic system. They would create a source of internal revenue for the city, which could then feed into the RP of development and expansion in the future. They would also allow the possibility of large-scale, long-term "guild quests": For example, the governing body of a guild might have the opportunity of cutting a deal with the municipal council to produce a certain amount of goods in a limited period of time in exchange for a reduction in rent fees for one in-game month or year, trade rights with other levels, access to hidden resources or new technologies, etc. This would require them organizing their members and working together towards a common goal with benefits palpable by all.
A bit over-the-top, perhaps. But that's something I would love to see become a (virtual) reality. :)
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Actually, I kinda like that idea... and it is very similar in intent to what I have termed elsewhere as Occupations. It would be a way to make a living using game mechanics, and not randomly killing things for trias.
The only reason I would prefer "Occupations" to what you have termed, is that you can only belong to a single Guild... and I don't see a lot of people disbanding their guilds just to sign up for one of these "Approved" ones.
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I just read up on your posts regarding "occupations" and from what I can tell, I agree (especiall this post: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32154.msg370892;topicseen#msg370892). Something like this would dramatically increase the variety of situations in which good RP can take place.
Would people leave their present guilds? Would they have to? Membership in at least two guilds - one "official", one "private" - should be theoretically possible. (How else are members of a thieves guild going to get access to information relating to the transport of big shipments of goods so they can tell their fellow theives where and when to strike, if not by 'spying', i.e. gaining access to an official guild under false pretenses? We shouldn't be limited to buying our information from opportunistic grinders! We should be able to get our hands really dirty! :D )
P.S. Where do you buy your asbestos underwear? I'm going to need some of those before too long, I'm sure...
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What's your size, I will try to craft you some... :)
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"Approving" guilds that are thematically cohesive is logical, and it's one good way to reward RP. And YES, RP should be rewarded. Grinding gets a ton of rewards in the sense of PP, money, etc. RP, since that's supposedly the focus of PS, should be given some kind of reward as well. I think it's a fairly basic, obvious step to reward RP if it's really the desired behavior, the intent behind an immersive gaming experience. There are too many guilds now that seem like their only goals are to allow them to grind better through teamwork, and cool if that's what they enjoy, but the rewards for that are obvious. The rewards for RPing should exist, not because RP is a chore, but because if you're RPing you aren't grinding, and you're going to end up coming up short compared to all the grinders out there anyway... so why not get something back for improving the atmosphere of the game by staying IC?
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If you REALLY believe that there should be a reward for RP... it should be ONLY on a per character basis. Also, guilds require money for houses and all kinds of things, including a guild house. How are you supposed to gain that without using the mechanics, or enlisting a few people that don't mind actually using the mechanics to get ahead? Are these characters supposed to gain the same benefits of the Approval as the RPers in the guild?
Besides that... as much as you imply that RP is neglected, there have been several things stated elsewhere to the effect of RP is its own reward... and GM events are largely designed around the RP crowd. Most PLers, as they are often called, don't bother involving themselves in these... so you are not forgotten... or a second class citizen. So please drop the over dramatization.
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Most PLers, as they are often called, don't bother involving themselves in these... so you are not forgotten... or a second class citizen. So please drop the over dramatization.
Wow, now. Cool the drama, there. ;) I'm pointing out that it's my philosophy that role-players should receive benefits for improving the environment of the game and actually playing in-character. I am not saying that there are not already benefits to role-playing, and I am most certainly not saying I feel like a "second class citizen." Trying to insert drama into my words isn't helping anybody; it's only going to cause drama. So leave that be; I'm not upset, nor am I looking to "dramatize" anything.
But, you raise the issue of having "PLers" to keep a guild going, financially. Why not give financial incentives to guilds that improve the setting and create RP opportunities rather than grinding away after PP and trias? I'm not suggesting elitist enclaves of RPers with special privileges; I'm talking about groups that actually do something to enhance the PS experience and get more people RPing. A performer's guild, for example; actual trade guilds that teach people the IC [and OOC] mechanics and issues of craftsmanship; things that would be logical and improve the setting by enriching it.
No drama, just ideas. :)
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Just curious here but if you are going to give rewards to the role players for adding flavor what kind of rewards can bug reporters expect for helping to improve the mechanics? Do not get me wrong here I know many of the people who role play also actively use the mechanics and a number of those are no stranger to the bug tracker either. Everyone is in this for their own purposes so if you want to reward good behaviour it should not be one type or another it should be any type.
Perhaps I should start up a "scientist guild" to go around examining the nature of Yliakum reality and reporting all anomalies (on the bug tracker.) It would be a kind of in context explanation for out of context activities. "yes ..I am repeatedly jumping up onto this box because I have detected that there is something quite abnormal about it and I am trying to ascertain its essence to publish in the Journal of Yliakum science" or "yes I am baking this sword on the grill because I am trying to understand the process that cause it to turn to gunk." It could be doubly rewarding. Perhaps the GMs would be tickled into designing an event around my guilds activities.
GM events are already one of the role players perks.
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I am sorry if I read too much into your post, but it came across as very terse, and sounded like you thought RPers were going to finally get a chance to get benefits solely for RP. The implication was that there was no benefit currently for RP. Not trying to create drama, just trying to keep it in-game and out of the forums if possible.
I can see your point, but I respectfully disagree.
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Perhaps I should start up a "scientist guild" to go around examining the nature of Yliakum reality and reporting all anomalies (on the bug tracker.) It would be a kind of in context explanation for out of context activities. "yes ..I am repeatedly jumping up onto this box because I have detected that there is something quite abnormal about it and I am trying to ascertain its essence to publish in the Journal of Yliakum science" or "yes I am baking this sword on the grill because I am trying to understand the process that cause it to turn to gunk." It could be doubly rewarding. Perhaps the GMs would be tickled into designing an event around my guilds activities.
Why not? We know that PS is an evolving world. And our characters must also realize it to some degree. Quirks, bugs and developments in the game - such as the addition of a new map, a new NPC, etc. - can not go entirely unrecognized by our characters. I see no harm in finding creative ways to explain certain out of context activities and/or realities in the context of our characters and their settings. For example, the quarantine in Ojaveda is a great in context explanation for the out of context reality regarding the areas beyond the currently playable ones. Being able to explain to a newcomer that a part of the city is "under quarantine" is a lot more interesting for RP than having to jump out of character and tell them [it hasn't been implemented yet]. Of course, we could RP our way around many things, but this is a 3-D RPG, and as such, the built environment is one of the characters. Otherwise, we could go back to playing table-top pen-and-paper or card-based RGPs and have the same experience.
To get back to the main topic: I would think having official or municipal guilds/occupations would be a common desire for both PLers and RPers. PLers should experience some small though noticable advantage in joining an official guild and "leveling IC" - for example, official guilds could have access to information and/or resources that would otherwise be very difficult to obtain. And the RPers in such guilds should be able to incorperate such behaviour into their own RP as they go about managing the life of their guild. In the real world, people joined guilds for various reasons - some to get rich and/or powerful quickly, some to experience and enjoy comradery among like-minded individuals, some to give their lives purpose in a grander scheme. People will play PS for various reasons, and official guilds could be one way to bring people with different interest together and have them cooperate towards common goals.
Regarding the 'reward' issue: In my opinion, RP is self-rewarding. That implies, however, that I am going to regard any situation or event that allows me to experience a wider variety of RP as a "reward" in itself. As far as I can tell, both Dreamcrafter and Mythryndel would agree with me. From my perspective - as a player who likes both leveling up and role playing - official, municipally sanctioned guilds would offer a great way to combine both of those interests.
Right now I am focused on questing in order to gain as much knowledge as I feel necessary to RP with others at a level which satisfies me personally. I'm gaining lots of experience points, and will start training specific skills soon. But I RP often, typically in combination with some task or quest I need to accomplish. My Kran was practically born with a pickaxe in his hand, and he would love to join the geological survey department of a miners guild. :)