Approved guilds?

[Prolix]

What, a guild has to have its own forum now? Sounds completely out of character to me. How does that jibe with the settings?
So much for my evil plans.

Hmm how can I incorporate that into my jockey guild. Humbug I'll never be leet!
That is how this idea really appears to me: a new way to define Leetness.

I dream of the day when utter mediocrity becomes the height of 

* Prolix steps off soapbox walks away in a hail of megara dumplings.

[Tuxide]

Well, if I was a settings member, I would probably be more interested in if your current guild plans are settings-compliant than if your dog died IRL and you won't be around for a week.  So I would probably be interested in a few threads than all of them.  Perhaps on a per-request basis.

What, a guild has to have its own forum now?

No, I wouldn't think so.

[NirAntae]

I think the idea there was 'IF your guild has a private message board, THEN you would agree to give settings members access'.   

[Zan]

I'm all for approved guilds but start from the start and highlight the rules again, as well as write them down clearly.

There have been guild creation guidelines around for years but they were never enforced or even encouraged aside from Sangwa's and a few others' efforts to pat good ideas on the back. Making certain guilds approved will only be that, an encouragement for upholding the rules. Anyone who complains about favoritism, might as well go accuse a random judge of it.

Now I don't doubt that there are people who will whine and complain but there are always those people. Or people who try to abuse the system to gain something, like Prolix is oh so clearly doing now.

As for in-game benefits, I'd say yes definitely! However make sure they are benefits for the whole community and for the roleplaying atmosphere. Limit personal benefits for guildies only to something with no real edge like having a guildhouse, being mentioned in a "Summary of Yliakum Guilds" book or being known by an NPC or two. Other benefits, that actually do something, would be for religious guilds to hold sermons and bless people or things (or curse them in some cases). I would love to see Xiosia's priests bless the crops of farmers to yield a good harvest or Dakkru's inner circle lifting Her curse to those that are loyal. You can also tie them in with faction points to restrict their use and still maintain some game-mechanical control. Another benefit is for a crafter's guild to teach their crafting skills and the like, at a slightly lower cost than NPCs trainers. These are benefits that guilds would give out to the community and I'd personally much rather see them in the hands of roleplayers than NPCs.

[Farren Kutter]

Yeah, and if there were, say, a guild of rangers, they could attack monsters OUTSIDE of parties in order to do their job properly without /telling and going through explanations with people who are dying from ulbernauts and trying to get into a group and then killing it AFTER the person is dead. Like I said, if there were some sort of ranger's guild out there. *Looks at his clicky signature* Oh.... Erm...   


Of course if this were abused there would be a way to submit a complaint OOCly to the leader of such a guild so that the member(s) in question could be dealt with.

Just a thought 

[Dajoji]

I think that this can be a great way to encourage RP and provide guilds with room and motivation to operate. There are many kinds of guilds and in my experience, the ones that have more OOC benefits often outlive or out-recruit the strictly RP ones. They provide their new members with gameplay information like where to train what, how to get a certain cool reward, what to say to NPCs to finish a quest, etc. Those are all fine but in the end the guild ends up being more for the players than it is for the characters. RP wise, the characters may have nothing to do with each other and the guild itself may have nothing to do with Yliakum. Meaningless name, ambiguous IC purpose, OOC chat only, but hey, they can has spoilerz.

Anyway, with this idea, not only would guilds have to have an IC purpose to begin with but keep up with it and do constant work to maintain their approved status. With any kind of recognition there can be suspicion of favoritism like "oh, you got approved only because you're friends with the devs/prospects/gms/mods/etc...". But, as long as the process is kept transparent and consistently enforced, we can avoid corruption.

The way I see it is something like this:

• The guild submits an application on the guilds forum (it could be using the active guilds thread).

• Once submitted they have to meet certain RP parameters. It's not enough that they keep their content within settings but they also must have clear objectives, and address them with creativity so original RP and plots can evolve from it. Perhaps even new game content. Requirements could include things like a minimum amount of in-game time, a promotional thread, a guild website, and a minimum of 5 different active players.

• A rating process begins. The applying guild creates (or specifies) a forum account and a bug tracker account, that they will use for all their official guild posts. Moderators and testers assess their involvement in both forums and bug tracker, respectively. A poll is added to the guild thread for community evaluation. Forum users rate the guild based on the quality of the guild thread. Meanwhile, an in-game voting system is implemented. Perhaps through an official NPC who would work as surveyor. The players would then rate the guild based on their experience and the guild's RP. Or perhaps a /rateguild command can be implemented, something that allows to vote 1 time per account for unlimited guilds (/rateguild <1-5> <guildname>, and maybe /rateguild reset if you screwed up your vote or changed your mind so you can vote again).

• When the applying guild reaches a certain rating they are awarded the approved status. Once approved, the guild needs to get involved with the community and their status of approved is maintained through a GPA system that contemplates forum participation (moderators rate), bug tracker involvement (testers rate), in-game activity (players rate). This means that the guild is expected to do a monthly quota of testing, a monthly quota of useful forum posts to offer help and provide ideas for the improvement of the game, and organize RP plots constantly. Plots can be submitted to the GM team for revision. The team rates it and offers assistance, getting involved in supporting the event with things like extra mobs, rewards, NPC impersonations, teleporting, etc. Finally, players rate the guild's RP per plot. This can be done by the GM team. Once per RP, a GM can use a sort of /event query command, which automatically sends a message to all event participants to rate the event. Players then enter /event rate <1-5> to assess the RP they just took part of. This rating would only take place for the guild's main events, not their everyday RP and they would be expected to have at least one every 1-2 months.

• Every month (or so), the ratings are added up and a GPA is popped out. If the guild maintains a certain minimum, it keeps it's approved status. Not all ratings would have the same weight. In-game activity and guild events should weight at least twice as much as the other criteria, for instance. It can be defined so a guild that is extremely active in-game can make up for not being so active in other areas (forums or bugtracker). In any case, the guild will have to be active in order to keep a high score.

• A cross-department team of Settings Members and Game Masters can be in charge of gathering the data and following up on approved guilds. In the case of tester and forum moderators ratings, the team can query them as needed or we can work a system to make ratings easier. Finally, as they see fit, they would reward the guilds that maintain their GPA high with things like mentions in in-game books or NPC dialogs, GM events based on the guild's history and characters, etc. Guildhouses and other shinnies could be given out but only for really outstanding performances.

So, that's my two trias. Not an official post, btw, just my thoughts. Hopefully we can come up with a fair system that encourages RP and gives guilds an IC purpose as well.

[Caarrie]

I am not sure that the bug tracker should have anything to do with this, Not all people or even guilds find bugs that they see the need to report or even notice. Overall the client/server is pretty stable and few issues are found on laanx most issues are found when digging in the code or in the lastest trunk client. Also not all Guilds are active on the forum as they dont have time. It is a nice idea but to require it will take away from the time they have to enjoy the game.

[Zan]

Creating, leading and maintaining a guild requires time. Don't enjoy spending time there then don't start a guild but join one instead.

A lack of time to create and maintain a forum topic is not a good excuse in my eyes.

[Dajoji]

That's why I'm suggesting that in-game activity have more weight than forum or BT activity. However, we want the guilds to contribute to the community as well. The "ideal" tester/player no only plays the game but uses the BT and forums as well, so let's reward that behavior as well. It will only benefit the community after all. Well, as long as their posts are useful, but that would affect their GPA of course so it's kinda self-regulating.

[Donari Tyndale]

Approved guilds should enhance roleplay, and not bug tracker activity. If a guild would be approved and receive IC benefits, the reason why would be OOC. Furthermore, a voting system isn't a secure way to do it, votes, especially on the internet, are easy to manipulate. Effort to enhance roleplay, however, is not easily manipulated.

[Under the moon]

I have two answers for this question.

Yes, now: Well roleplayed guilds that hold true to the Settings should be rewarded. Simple things like being given guildhouses, mention in books and by NPCs, and perhaps approved and supported guild submitted textures for uniforms. At this time, I would grant no actual powers. However...

Yes, eventually. Eventually, true approved guilds should be given vast powers. The guild system in place is too simple to handle True Guilds. Look up guilds historically to see what I mean by 'true'. 'Guilds' in games are nothing more than big clubs for the most part, and most can barely be trusted to name themselves, let alone give them power over anything.

What kind of guilds would I approve for having ingame powers? True trade guilds only (yes, that includes the 'evil' trades). Other things such as political and religious organizations would also be able to obtain powers, but under a different way, since you can be a part of a Trade guild and both of those as well.

Restrictions: With great power comes... many rules. Approved guilds would become property of the Settings department and a tool for them to use, just like NPCs. Settings would reserve the right to advise and force changes in the guild, as well as edit its history. Trade guilds with powers would have even greater hurdles having to establish from the beginning what their intentions are, what trade they will be taking, getting their history approved before starting the guild, AND actually having to be a master in the trade that their guild will be focusing on. Trade guilds would also be restricted in what they can do and where they can practice their trade. People who get into a trade guild and advance to a certain rank would NOT be able to leave until a certain time passed. Characters would not be able to practice their trade outside of their guild's territory.

What sort of powers would guilds get? Certain ranks of Trade guilds would be able to get the materials and training needed to advance in their trade from NPCs at very reduced costs. Trade guilds could own and restrict access to such things as mines and other sources of raw goods, industry facilities, operating areas, and flying beasts (no other type of guild could own one). They could also affect the prices, quantity, and quality NPCs would buy and sell by bringing the NPC into their guild (based on Settings approval). Laws could also be affected by guilds, making them more or less lax.

As for the 'favoritism' counterpoints? Honestly, boo hoo, cry me a river. Anyone who can get their guild approved by Settings deserves to be favored.

[Dajoji]

Approved guilds should enhance roleplay, and not bug tracker activity. If a guild would be approved and receive IC benefits, the reason why would be OOC. Furthermore, a voting system isn't a secure way to do it, votes, especially on the internet, are easy to manipulate. Effort to enhance roleplay, however, is not easily manipulated.

Approved guilds should enhance the game altogether. There's no reason why involvement in other areas should not be taken into account. The RP aspect is still the most important one and the voting is only part of the rating process. Using multiple accounts and other schemes to get an extra vote will only help you so much, in the end, the combined opinions of multiple participants determine the guild's score. The system would be vulnerable to some sort of exploitation, but its effects can me minimized. No system will be perfect and it's better to have one where despite a few players mAlting to bump up their GPA than to have one where only a few people decide who makes the cut and who doesn't. That's where accusations of corruption and favoritism arise. By combining different ratings and different areas of activity, we can make it transparent and whatever the guild does, they have to work for the approval not just say they deserve it.

For example, a guild wants to get approved so they create a number of accounts and start voting. Well, that may give them a nice in-game/forum rating, but there are other factors still, like the Settings review, which should outweigh the vote at that stage. So even if they get a 5 star in-game vote, if they are not of settings liking they don't make the cut. Later when they organize events, event ideas and execution outweighs the other aspects. It will be more difficult for players to mAlt while running an event so if some of them do it will not affect the outcome greatly and a GM would be present to observe. In the meantime, the quality of their posts and the relevance of their bug reports/comments are open for anyone to see, so the rating they get from moderators and testers cannot contradict the evidence. They are rather objective, in a way, and can be a bonus to the guilds. If a guild never reports bugs or uses the PS forums they just don't get the extra points. They could, they just choose not to. They are not being punished, they are just not being rewarded for something they just choose not to do. They can always make up with RP ideas however. A prolific RP guild will outdo one that only makes forum posts and spends little time in-game. In fact, such a guild would probably lose approval eventually.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

dajoji's post is exactly the kind of response we actually want here. Ways to make this actually WORK 

As for favoritism, with me as part of the approval process I doubt favoritism will play in too much.

I have elsewhere on this forum spoke of what I do not like in guilds today from names to methodologies.

I also don't have any preferences and people can count on me to be coldly cynical toward all applications.

The purpose of these guilds would not be "fitting in settings" "manifesting settings" is a better term.

I encourage many more thoughts and concerns. I want to see and address all potential fears as well as incorporate any of the communities ideas.

This is ONLY a rough Idea, no rules have been sorted, no approval has been granted. We are brainstorming here, contribute if you wish.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Lolitra wipes her brow after reading all this...

"I would love my guild to be an approved one... and would not mind it being the 'property' of the settings team, but my question is this...

If it becomes the property of the team, will they actively have time to input and maintain their input into the plots and subplots of the guild?"

[Prolix]

You want Settings approved guilds create them yourself. Make them an official part of the game and slap an NPC in charge that can be 'possessed' by a dev/gm/game official and have done with it.

This sounds like nothing more than a power grab by a disgruntled group of roplards. You want cynical -- I'll give you cynical.

Role play still has not -- can not be defined because it is entirely subjective. Much of what I have seen that has been touted as great role plays have been little more than tritely scripted mis en scenes outrageously overacted by wannabe thespians. Please do not ask me for specifics as they were ultimately forgettable and hence have been forgotten save for the impressions they left.

* Prolix screams epithets at the now fleeing megara overhead, wipes the dumpling off his face.