PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Prolix on June 17, 2008, 01:04:42 am
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There are a few things I do not really understand about why some things are the way they are. I do not really have a problem with how they are but they seem counter intuitive.
Why is it harder to make a stock than an ingot? I can see that it might be more difficult to get a particular quality from a larger mold but all you are doing is pouring molten ore into a vessel.
Why is it harder to use a master crafted tool? it would seem that it would have better balance and generally do a better job on easy tasks and allow more difficult tasks to be undertaken.
Mostly I just put these questions down to implementation details but I do wonder sometimes about the logic.
I also wonder why kran are allowed to eat money that only comes from one level of the realm. I suppose it is not really like currency systems today.
Certainly not a big deal, but I would like to hear some thoughts.
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There are some interesting oddities that need to be rationalized. I've wondered about us carrying around molten metal, and why it doesn't harm us, nor cool down.
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Yes, and I've wondered why food doesn't rot, but that's not so much a complaint as it is just pointing out a fact :P
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Hmmm... I see this thread is aimed at being constructive but it still remotely reminds me of someone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzyd91NFx-Y)... ::)
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:offtopic:, I know, but, that...made my day. XD
The nitpickiness is for a good cause! ^^;
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Hey I'm not that fat and I don't do comic books.
Sometimes it is like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHjs7lCasEQ) here.
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I said "remotely" ;)
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Why is it harder to use a master crafted tool? it would seem that it would have better balance and generally do a better job on easy tasks and allow more difficult tasks to be undertaken.
I think it's the same with giving a big nub a (http://us.emulcenter.net/images/Consoles/gameboy.gif) or a (http://www.itreviews.co.uk/graphics/normal/hardware/h971.jpg)
Sure a PC does more, but you gotta know how it works ;)
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I think it's the same with giving a big nub a <GB> or a <PC>
Sure a PC does more, but you gotta know how it works ;)
He's comparing items of different production qualities, not different functions.
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:) I know, I thought I PC games are way better then GB games. (as in graphics, size ect.)
A master crafted tool is different then a general tool. Perhaps a Master crafted rock pick has another weight distribution that makes it 'in the right hands' more useful. You have to learn to use it.
(PC games often feature more then 8 buttons, hence the comparison. It does a better job, though have have to have 'more skillz') :sorcerer:
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Perhaps a Master crafted rock pick has another weight distribution that makes it 'in the right hands' more useful. You have to learn to use it.
It's the other way around. Better quality tools have a better weight distribution, making them easier to use. If you think of heavy rock picks with devastating power, but only usable by impressively muscled dudes - that's what we call poor quality item in the real world.
And PC isn't a gaming console. Plus, it's as easy as GB in use - you just push the "power" button. All the rest belongs to the operating systems, which obviously vary in their complexity. If you compare PC with actual modern gaming consoles, some of these can, in fact, be harder in use than Windows.
Anyway, you really need to learn to differ between "different quality" and "downright different".
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>.> I didn't say anything about huge colossal rock picks :'( I thought I was clear for once!
Master crafted and normal can both weigh +- the same, and still be different in handling.
If a normal pick would have it's center of gravity in th middle, and the Master crafted one is way up front I bet it's a different swing.
(though I wouldn't know if that for the better of the worse)
And who knows, maybe it's magical enchanted, like a 'fire' short sword
<.< Sorry for making my comparison too hard to understand, I give poo about details in them
:sorcerer:
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As long as this discussion is still about Planeshift and not yet totally off yet, some note to add:
Firstly, I agree, "master crafted items" in the given definition could be easier to handle - but since that phrase is pretty rough there obviously are other definitions as well, and its nothing said about which would fit the mentioned rock pick ingame. I dare to shoot Windows and Linux as examples - In fact I consider Linux more evolved and advanced than Windows, take it as an equivalent to "master crafted" if you want. More powerful and versatile, but harder to control or handle.
Back to Planeshift, I just like to look at the Mastercrafteds, when used with a certain and special technique, to be more efficient, while common picks just have an average efficiency, no matter how you swing that thing. Making Mastercrafted requiring less skill than common ones would of course be plain stupid, because it would mean the common ones would have to be added a requirement at all - so telling a newbie to take that hell of a quest to get his first rock pick he would be able to use would be nonsense.
Mastercrafted Rock Picks should have some skill bonus, like Mining +10, the same time require certain skills, I could think of a combination of Agility and Strength (or a mix of physical and mental stats), for keeping it straight and easy.
Sidenote: Are those Mastercrafted Hammers useful for smithing meanwhile, or still bugged? Same would apply here of course.
As for the ingots and stocks, actually a good question - I could only think of it may be more difficult to have the product as pure, perhaps also about keeping right temperatures or some such, just more experience. I wouldnt mind hearing officials comment on that.
Money is another nice point - given in the setting is that richest merchants introduced their own currency, platinum coins, worth of 1k or so - now, I would recommend to either correct that, deleting it from any description that is, or make platinum rare as its meant to be (at least according to the mentioned texts - cant get arsed to link to it though). As it is at the moment it conflicts (or just 4 of 5 people belong to the richest people).
Thanks for taking the time to read this, now you can go back nitpicking about Game Boys and PCs, quality per se, neater looks, nicer sounds or whatever.. =P
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If a normal pick would have it's center of gravity in th middle, and the Master crafted one is way up front I bet it's a different swing.
(though I wouldn't know if that for the better of the worse)
If something has its weight distribution worse than that of an average quality tool, you can be certain it's not a master that made this item.
If a tool has a proper weight distribution, you need less strength to use it. You also don't need as much skill to hit a point that you've chosen to hit.
Poor quality items are heavier (even if they have the same weight) to swing and much less accurate.
I dare to shoot Windows and Linux as examples
How is this comparable? These are completely different, not similar systems. To start with, Windows was designed to be user-friendly, while Linux was supposed to give an advanced user a bigger control over their system. If you want a good example, imagine two versions of Windows:
One utterly cluttered with bugs (sure, laugh) and one that is completely secure and bug-free. This will represent poor and good quality products. Which do you think will be easier in use?
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Master crafted; Crafted by a master
Maybe it's just a lousy snob thing for miners, like an Hummer for urban life.
Maybe it's not tweaked yet
Maybe it's crafted by a master for a master and requires more knowledge on how to use
Maybe it's magic
Maybe we don´t know what Master crafted means
Maybe Master crafted means NFN (Not For Nubs)
Maybe Master crafted is an easter egg referring to MC Hammer
:lol: I think that sums up all our deductions of Master Crafted stuff so far :sorcerer:
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sure, laugh
I do, but not about that specific point, but because you are apparently only searching for bits to go offotpic - I was actually pondering to use that example at all.
If you still dont get the point I am not very eager to bring more examples only for finding you focusing on sidenotes to nitpick, not on main points and the general meaning of posts. Finally, my time is too precious to lead a useless discussion with you. If you arent willed to get ideas and discuss them, instead only stubbornly try to remain the "one to be right" and having the last word by any even absurd means, have fun with it, and consider me granting you this your desire - mission accomplished! lol
But I am almost sure you are already knowing how to counter this, no? Nice, I dont care xD
Yes Socius, you list quite some valid options on what Mastercrafted my mean o/
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I'm merely opposing an argument that can be compared to discussing quality of a hammer and a shovel based on how easy it is to hammer nails with each of these tools.
A single tool should be chosen. And likewise - a single system.
Maybe I'm nitpicking, I don't know... and to be frank, I don't care. I've been drawn into this discussion by a senseless comparison with a Gameboy and a PC. Pointed out its irrelevance and brought up the argument already used by the thread starter - an argument so far not discredited in any sensible manner.
Even if something is magic-enchanted, it still shouldn't be harder to use than a non-enchanted tool. It just wouldn't make a difference to someone who cannot call up onto the magical reserves.
The act of creating something so complex that only a master could use it also doesn't seem to make much sense in case of basic tools. Complexity usually comes hand-in-hand with fragility and awkward use. Not exactly something you'd want a rock pick to represent. Using stronger materials, improved smithing techniques and better weightening is something any sensible "expensive" smith would strive for.
Oh, and could you please bold up the arguments in your next post? I had severe problems with finding these in your last.
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>:( Senseless Pfff, I thought we were playing nice :flowers:
Anyway, my über deducting skills tell me that you think it needs to be tweaked
Already listed in Socius's über deducting (love that word) list :sorcerer: poof
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use the bugtracker folks this is senseless.
Kran can eat money BECAUSE THEY CAN.
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Well sure they can eat money because they can eat money. Can they turn in their stools to be reimbursed for the value of the currency they ate like you can turn in damaged paper money in the real world?
As for the Master Crafted thing there could conceivably be embellishments to them that would only make sense to a master. I am not quite sure what those would be for a pick or a hammer but it might be changeable heads or some such thing.
I have no problem at all using the bugtracker but first I need a good idea of what to put there. The problems I have with the various things are a little abstract and can use refinement.
I suppose the stock issue is clear enough to make a feature request about. It is not really a bug. None of these issues really are bugs are they?
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If you want them fixed they are. Notice of the devs I am paying attention here, I don't fix the things you raise points about.
So use the bugtracker.
It is not a feature request it is a bug.
If the appropriate people on engine disagree the bugs will be closed as "not a bug" and nothing changes.
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Flyspray 1715 -1717.
BTW Xilllix, you are head of the settings department, correct? Flyspray #1716 (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1716) is your balliwick as far as I can tell.
The others points were to get some feedback for myself so as to not waste the devs time looking at reports that will be closed immediately. If I post a bug report for every thought that comes into my head while doing this or that, Flyspray will be filled with crap and whatever reputation I may have as being a productive reporter will be completely shot.
Pardon me for caring about quality control.
If anyone who has commented yea or nay in this thread feel free to make a Flyspray account and comment on these bugs.
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Be wary of not wasting my time. The forums are hateful and I don't like flaw seekers who don't use the the threads we provided. No worries, I am just tired. VERY VERY VERY tired.
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Flyspray 1715 -1717.
BTW Xilllix, you are head of the settings department, correct? Flyspray #1716 (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1716) is your balliwick as far as I can tell.
The others points were to get some feedback for myself so as to not waste the devs time looking at reports that will be closed immediately. If I post a bug report for every thought that comes into my head while doing this or that, Flyspray will be filled with crap and whatever reputation I may have as being a productive reporter will be completely shot.
Pardon me for caring about quality control.
If anyone who has commented yea or nay in this thread feel free to make a Flyspray account and comment on these bugs.
If you have settings issues you dont need to open a bug report, there are a few setting devs that have told you that you can pm them the requested info and they will look into the issues. It is much easier to do it that way then use the tracker.