PlaneShift
Support => Forum and Website Discussions => Topic started by: kjnelan on July 19, 2008, 06:21:47 pm
-
I've been doing quite a bit of reading on the forums and have been finding more people than I thought possible responding to questions people pose with utter disrespect and at times complete lack of humanity. I find this rather disturbing.
But then I came across this...
I could totally wrong here, but this just shows me that the person behind the character has feelings. This means that we should all play respectfully with each other. If we don't then we might take a chance to loose a great player such as (name removed due to great admiration and respect)...
...I have complete respect for you (name removed due to great admiration and respect).
[yes I know you can just go to the appropriate thread and read the name. Still. I wish to show my absolute respect to the individual.]
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! [applaudes] \\o// Shouldn't that be true then for the forums as well? If someone asks a question or makes a response to someone else, don't call them lazy or wantless, or in any other way demoralize that person.
I've read plenty of posts that do exactly that.
While I realize that we shouldn't be hand-holders or anything like that, I also realize that this world of information technology has allowed a sense of distance from the other person reading the screen. We would all do well to remember there are HUMAN beings on the other sides of those words. Real people with Real feelings. Those feelings can easily find their ways into our characters.
[silently sits back to wait for...]
[I too am human and have feelings. It was pointed out to me that the sentence which was originally here seemed to attack the forums. Since that was not my intent I have removed the statement. Thank you for your patience and understanding.]
-
Now I totally agree with all of your post except that last part in brackets; Unfortunately you did exactly what you were trying to help resolve with that last comment. It wasn't a direct attack on any specific person but it was and attack on the forum culture as a whole.
if you feel that it is too harsh here please try not to propagate the problem. I just suggest to edit that last part out of your initial post.
Again I do agree there have been many harsh responses and most from specific individuals and there are steps being taken to repair those problems that I have seen from the Admin team.
-
Now I totally agree with all of your post except that last part in brackets; Unfortunately you did exactly what you were trying to help resolve with that last comment. It wasn't a direct attack on any specific person but it was and attack on the forum culture as a whole.
if you feel that it is too harsh here please try not to propagate the problem. I just suggest to edit that last part out of your initial post.
Thank you. I will... rephrase the sentence.
Peace to you.
-
I have never been quoted before. My words were written in all honesty though. My opinion on this thread is that the players have been requested to contribute to the game. We do so with all our hearts and souls due to the fact that we love PlaneShift so much. As was all things in life nothing is perfect though. So being given complete freedom to speak our minds we do so without a thought of who it might hurt by how we say what we think. I wrote this http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30231.0 in hopes that people would start to say kind things in these forums.
I hope that we remember that people looking to play a new game might look at this forum and judge the game by it. Using respectful words and making suggestions to improve this great game would be better then just complaining and wining. There is an old quote: “We don’t know how good we have it until it is gone.” I wonder if people realize all our volunteer developers, testers and prospects could quit if we are mean enough. We could be left with nothing.
So take your love for this game and make useful posts and please be respectful. Most of all remember it is a game for us to fun.
Respectfully yours,
Mathy.
-
I have never been quoted before. ...
Great and wonderful words such as the ones you spoke should be quoted more often.
I wrote this http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30231.0 in hopes that people would start to say kind things in these forums.
I like the idea of telling people how wonderful they are BEFORE they leave! It is a great Idea Mathy!!!! I hope people start posting in that thread more!
Kudos!
With Deep Respect,
Ken
-
Someone sent me a pm regarding this issue and I would like to share part of my response.
[quote from pm]
I guess I should have also mentioned that when I read the post I quoted from [raises pants in an attempt to look macho] I got misty. I suddenly knew that post had to be shared and told to everyone who would listen. ...
Apparently someone else thought as much too as they moved this from where it was originally posted to the Forums section (and thanks for that!!!) and didn't delete it as I personally thought might happen.
[/quote]
If I have disrespected anyone regarding this issue, I apologize. It was not my intent so please re-read my original post. The intent of this thread is to get everyone to treat each other as human beings and not as pieces of binary code attached to a keyboard and mouse. I quoted the person I thought most reflected the attitude of kindness and humanity. I'm sorry if I was wrong to do so.
Thanks.
-
I'm so glad you posted this. I was actually thinking of posting something just like this. I've been a registered user here for months and have played planeshift nearly everyday for a year but never post anything on the forums. The reason being that a few always seem to think that just because a post exsist that their negative opinion is wanted.
The guild section seems to be one of the worst sections. Someone comes up with a guild and many feel they automatically have to bash everything about it.
There are a few that are almost always blatantly rude and/or negative . They are not better than anyone else like they think they are. One person in particular that is almost always rude gave a hint at their age and that did help explain a lot however. Perhaps one day the forums will be rid of these people and then maybe others will start posting here or posting here once again.
This is the first post I've felt led to respond to in, well, ever.
-
The forums are actually quite nice as of late. There have been much worse periods in the life of the forum. But, I guess we can always improve.
I don't quite agree with the guild forums part. The criticism there is usually warranted and most of those threads are attacked because the poster hadn't read the stickies or done any research.
-
Well yeah, but people do tend to word their posts a little more harshly than is needed there anyway.
I think forums in general just tend to make people forget that there's more to the other user than the text they see on the screen.
-
I've been a registered user here for months and have played planeshift nearly everyday for a year but never post anything on the forums. The reason being that a few always seem to think that just because a post exsist that their negative opinion is wanted.
The guild section seems to be one of the worst sections. Someone comes up with a guild and many feel they automatically have to bash everything about it.
There are a few that are almost always blatantly rude and/or negative . They are not better than anyone else like they think they are.
I 100% agree with this part. I've been playing PlaneShift for almost six years now; I've been a guild leader for about a year and I don't even bother to make my own promo thread on this board because I can't stand the rudeness I see on the promo threads of other guilds. There's a difference between being open to feedback and being open to persistent rudeness.
Perhaps one day the forums will be rid of these people and then maybe others will start posting here or posting here once again.
I disagree; the enemy here is rudeness, not individuals. Considering this is a volunteer project, we shouldn't even be tolerating such attitude.
-
I am a great believer in forum etiquette, and I agree with the original poster (About Mathy as well :)). I only wish more people had the attitude of those in this thread.
The only thing we can do is lead by example my friends, and if someone tries to insult us, we must simply turn the other cheek. I've tried to get this idea across in the guide I wrote earlier this year, and I can only hope that people who read it keep what I said in mind whenever they make a forum post.
Thank you for the positive thread kjnelan.
-
The only thing we can do is lead by example my friends, and if someone tries to insult us, we must simply turn the other cheek.
I'm not convinced that'll do anything, but maybe I don't understand what you mean. Newcomers will always be a problem but without them this forum cannot grow. I'm more concerned about rudeness coming from established users here. What kind of incentive or mechanism do we need on this forum to encourage everyone to be civil?
I've tried to get this idea across in the guide I wrote earlier this year, and I can only hope that people who read it keep what I said in mind whenever they make a forum post.
I know of no such guide, please provide a URL.
-
I suspect I might be one of the people that kjnelan refers to when he speaks of "Harsh Responses". So I formally apologise for any offence for my post (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32861.msg381346#msg381346). :flowers:
I would like to say a couple of things about it though. I was in a rush when posting, as I needed to leave the comp in a few mins. So all I was doing was attempting to keep you informed about how the issue had been reported and confirmed as a bug. "Too lazy" was also a bad choice of words, I kinda meant, "and if you can't be bothered to read the posts, here are some things that might help you to get around the issue. Rather ironically, after making that post I was kind of pleased with posting something useful, as opposed to random on the forums. But the more I read it the colder my post gets :(
Thus I have rewritten my post here :D
Yeah, I've found this bug really annoying as well, but thankfully it has been reported on the bugtracker already here (http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1826).
There is also another thread on the forum also discussing a few ways to sidestep the problem here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32891.0).
To save you the trouble of reading those threads, two possible ways to avoid the stamina dump is to:
1. Sit then stand before moving after standing for long periods.
2. Turn left and right before moving after standing for long periods.
I hope they work for you :)
-
tl;dr
But seriously, its a forum for a roleplaying game. If someone says something here that is rather short but intended to help and you get your panties in a twist over it, I think you have more problems than the content of their post.
-
I have one more thing to say: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=28270;sa=showPosts;start=240
-
Parallo, no.. Beniel was not the problem, but thank you for your "opinion". I'm not sure what you hoped to gain by your comment, but to each their own.
However, the difference between the game and the forum is that we often do not RP in the forums. If there is RP it's usually the opposite of what we do in the game. It's included in brackets or in a special section for story telling and the such.
There is also an issue here that in the "Real World" I have many ways of dealing with individuals who are rude, irresponsible, mean, threatening, hostile, and down right dangerous. In the game or in the these forums, there is nothing apart from a few (very few) individuals who must then read many thousands of posts and even then may not do anything because there is something MORE serious going on in another thread.
Sure I can file a complaint, but such complaints usually (from personal experience as the person who harassed me long ago is still a member of PS [read below for more details but no names]). In the real world, such people are taken away or dealt with in a court of law. [of course in medieval times, they were either hung, staked, racked, or some other form of cruel punishment was inflicted.]
Beniel, no, yours was not the issue. That was rather benign in comparison to what's going on.
I will not start posting links to other threads nor will I be the forum police and give out every or look for every instance of indiscretion, but what prompted me to write this thread was another thread I read in which someone was told they were stupid for asking a question and they didn't deserve to have their questions answered by anyone. As [silly] as that may sound, that person who received that type of response is damaged.
I've actually come across many posts like that. In defense of one particular post though, the person called a stupid newb started the thread by saying he was, but people continued smashing him anyway for asking his question.
No one is stupid; they are either misinformed, or non-informed. But to literally slam someone to pieces because they have a question, or make an observation is morally negligent...
...
And yes, to answer [everyone's] PM'd and unspoken question [surprise, surprise I would get so many PM's over this issue] , I have been the victim of such attacks. When I first started playing PS long ago, I started posting on the forums and such [I had a different account name and e-mail address then]. Because of one person who was literally ruthless, I quit, had my account deleted, and even had to change my e-mail address because at the time I didn't know how to hide my personal e-mail address and the person continued attacking me on my personal e-mail.
I'm seeing the same sorts of things happening and the same responses to people throughout these new and improved forums and it's making me second guess my coming back to the game.
Because of the PM's and other contacts... I am REALLY second guessing coming back. I've only encountered 1 rude person IG, but I have a sneaky feeling there are many more!
For the most part the responses are positive, but at least one person has responded negatively and its not all that surprising. Its not a bad post mind you, but it's still the type of thing that could have been kept to that individual rather than being spoken out loud.
Edit:
The criticism there is usually warranted and most of those threads are attacked because the poster hadn't read the stickies or done any research.
Forgive my ignorance here, but are you saying that there are times slamming someone to pieces is warranted? For example if they are new, or if they don't read the forum rules, or if they don't search for a similar topic, or if the hair on my left index knuckle is slightly ingrown and it bothers me so I have to itch it but it's better to yell at someone in a forum? That type of thing?
Because if that's really how you feel Waylander, then you have pretty much cinched it for me and I'll back off and leave without another word. But if you meant something else, I'd sure like to hear it.
[please try to avoid double posting, thank you - Eliseth]
-
kjnelan, I'm so sorry to hear about your previous negative experiences. It saddens me to think that people of a community I love so much can stoop to such low levels.
Forgive my ignorance here, but are you saying that there are times slamming someone to pieces is warranted? For example if they are new, or if they don't read the forum rules, or if they don't search for a similar topic, or if the hair on my left index knuckle is slightly ingrown and it bothers me so I have to itch it but it's better to yell at someone in a forum? That type of thing?
I'm sure Waylander does not condone the "slamming" that you describe. I believe the point he was trying to make is that in the guilds forum, if someone posts a new guild that doesn't really fit into Yliakum and without having read the guildlines given, the criticism that people give is warranted.
I do not however agree with the personal attacks that some people post. It is usually in the form of sarcastic posts which contain no real input at all. By input I mean positive criticism.
I'm sure you'll agree however that the majority of our community members are quite pleasant in their forum posts, and that the problem really only lies with a relatively small minority. This unfortunately is true for most online communities, or even real life communities. Sure, leaving the community will help you, but it won't solve the problem, you'll find the same minority where ever you go.
I don't have too much more to say on this subject, but let me just reply to Tuxide
I'm not convinced that'll do anything, but maybe I don't understand what you mean. Newcomers will always be a problem but without them this forum cannot grow. I'm more concerned about rudeness coming from established users here. What kind of incentive or mechanism do we need on this forum to encourage everyone to be civil?
What I mean here is that telling people to be nice is really not useful at all, we have forum rules telling people to be nice but still we get people being nasty. By setting an example ourselves, people will more likely follow suit, and if they don't, at least we know we aren't adding to the problem. When I said turn the other cheek I meant that fighting fire with fire is pointless. In other words if someone insults you on the forums, don't get upset and insult back, it only makes things worse.
I know of no such guide, please provide a URL.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32362.0
-
The sad thing is that this nice person was so upset by us that he quit both the game and the forums. Let that be a lesson to all of us.
I tried to send him a PM and it says he no longer has an account here.
We should be ashamed.
-
I know of no such guide, please provide a URL.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32362.0
That's an awfully long essay.
If everyone here wrote an essay on civility and the implications of rudeness here, then maybe people here would understand more about what it means to be civil.
-
The sad thing is that this nice person was so upset by us that he quit both the game and the forums. Let that be a lesson to all of us.
I tried to send him a PM and it says he no longer has an account here.
We should be ashamed.
No, I don't think we should be ashamed. As sad as I am to see people leave because of others, I still feel that in the end everyone's happiness depends on themselves only. Feeling ashamed is also a negative emotion and will do nothing to improve matters. What we should do is learn and move on.
Good bye kjnelan, I wish you all the best for where ever you go from here.
-
It is a pity that this person feels that the community of PS as a whole is to take up blame for the minority few who decide to 'hold grudges' or are still as yet 'immature' and 'vindictive' in their gaming. The sad truth is that that there will always be those who get all in a tizz when they don't get what they want, and become nasty about it - sometimes venting out their anger in 'oh so cruel' ways, including breaking the laws of some countries by 'harassing' them - or even slandering other's names. We all have - I have no doubt - suffered at the mercy of someone like this to some degree... I just hope I don't become that someone - ever!
The only way to prevent this is to use the forum's tools - such as report. We should never be ashamed of other's behaviour - only our own. The original quote was one -about- me by Mathy... I was ashamed of my 'over-reaction' to something, and immediately I realised my stupidity - took the time and effort - to take responsibility for my actions, to apologise, and then to take steps to ensure it did not happen again. incidently - Mathy is a lovely person at bandaging those who have hurt emotions.
Kjnelan - You said you only came across one bad person in game - that is a good thing - the fact you think that there are more - puts you in the footing that I think you are looking for them perhaps? Just bear in mind, if you look for something hard enough - inevitably you will find it. Any way - enjoy life where ever you go, just remember - friendships, relationships, and just acquaintances all have bad days when they say things they wish they had not... a good relationship is built on when one is able to say 'sorry' and mean it - and even stronger ones are made by people who can say 'sorry' for things they have not done - to allow the healing process to begin.
-
It's easy to be rude with someone who isn't standing infront of you. They can't smack you one or burst out into tears infront of your eyes.
Remember though that rudeness and insulting are usually done out of desparation. Often because it's the umpteenth time you have to make a remark on that yet again ... and you know they probably won't see it this time either.
The guild forums are a prime example for that. I know quite a few good people who have high hopes for the planeshift guilds, I'm one of those people. The problem is most others don't share that vision and just want to make guilds to play with friends so there is conflict. A conflict that won't be resolved easily and eventually degrades into rudeness because both sides are tired of arguing against eachother endlessly.
So remember next time that someone is rude towards you, they're just human too and maybe you're stepping on their hopes and dreams. ;)
-
/me hugs Lolitra.
Your words are so very kind. Though, believe it or not I am also to blame for people leaving the game. I admit this is my first game, but that is no excuse for my unkind words or bad behavior. I have learned how to deal with things in a better way now. So as in everything, it is a learning experience. I just hope that people here will learn from their mistakes and make things better.
If no one else is ashamed of their behavior, so be it. I am. I wish Kjnelan would return and so many others so I could say, "I am sorry." It brings me to tears.
-
The sad thing is that this nice person was so upset by us that he quit both the game and the forums. Let that be a lesson to all of us.
I tried to send him a PM and it says he no longer has an account here.
We should be ashamed.
Call me crazy but as long as the user doesn't have their name in plain white and is classified as "guest", they can still receive PMs since their account still exists (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=32554). Maybe you typed the wrong name?
Edit: Ok. I'm crazy I guess... It looks like the guy's account is blocking any incoming PMs even though his account still exists. ???
-
See recent changes made by ACraig here: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32636.0
Users are no longer instantly allowed to remove their accounts. This user has more than likely marked their account for removal, but it won't be removed until reviewed by the administration staff, hence you can still view the account profile for the time being.
-
Oh, ya... forgot about that. Well, mystery solved.
Farewell kjnelan.
-
If you are slammed to pieces by rudeness on the internet you should probably get a new hobby.
-
Oh Parallo - if only life was as black and white as that...
-
He's got a point though--you need to be pretty thick-skinned anywhere on the internet. 'Tis the unfortunate truth. In general, I find these forums pretty friendly. The criticism on the guilds forum is usually merited, but often more tact would be nice.
-
Unless you go to forums centered around religion and not populated by total fanatics this is probably the friendliest place you'll find on the net.
-
Even the ones with fanatics are pretty nice until some hardcore atheist decides to join, from what I've seen. I've never joined a religious forum, though...only lurked 'em over my sister's shoulder. >_>;
-
I have joined a few and I'm a hardcore atheist :P
-
What we need to remember is that we lost a member of our PS Community. That is sad.
Think about that.
-
We lose members everyday. We also gain members everyday. Someone who doesn't like a community shouldn't try to join it. Also, someone who takes words on a screen written by someone they don't even know that seriously shouldn't be online.
-
Pardon me, Parallo, Is that snide comment addressed to me?
-
About the community.. I see a distinct difference between the forums and people ingame, some people ingame you wont never see on the forums and vice versa. So what actually would sadden me (if you can call it like that at all), is people leaving the game for stuff happening on the forums.
The atmosphere ingame I experienced as much more friendly than on these forums here, so I would hope people wont get tricked that easily.
-
I think that some people embrace the anonymity more then others and as a result develop an ego. I see so much of this elitist attitude, of people trying to force their intelligence down other's throats just for their own amusement. Almost every comment i see from these people could result in an argument, and in the end it seems like that is all they are looking for, just another debate so they can attempt to force their 'superiority' on someone else.
Then we have others who remain themselves and find it difficult to embrace the cloak of relative anonymity that the internet provides. I personally am an example of this, I just can't turn off my personality or the way i think and communicate with people. It is these people who are accused of 'taking things personally' and 'overreacting'. If someone walked up and slapped you in your face, most of us wouldn't smile and 'get over it'. You would feel hurt and upset about it like most people would. Despite this cloak of anonymity, an insulting comment is still insulting and i find it impossible just to 'forget' that i ever read it. Sure there are different degrees and i can understand how in -some- cases people do overreact, but 99% of the time their reactions are completely justified. If someone calls me stupid, I am going to be upset, no matter if they said it to my face, in a letter, behind my back, or online.
Patience is a virtue.
[P.S. Yes i know i am a comma abuser :sweatdrop: ]
-
I agree with Anumesa, there's always an human being behind the screen, even if we like it or not, we have to respect that.
I'd like to know someone who has a life on the internet and a 100% different real life (if they have real life), I'm the same person in both places (maybe on IRC I joke too much but weeee, who cares lol).
-
I'd like to know someone who has a life on the internet and a 100% different real life
Depending on who you talk to, I fit that bill. I'm actually a genuinely nice person to be around. Read my PM box and you'll think I'm the spawn of Satan out to end all humanity.
Unfortunately for them, the sticks and stones argument comes into play. I'm perfectly happy with who I am, and could care less with what others think of me, so it doesn't bother or get me upset in the least. I just shrug it off and go on my merry way. I can't make everyone like me, so I don't try. People will always have different opinions on things.
As my parents told me and my siblings whilst growing up, "you don't have to like each other. you just have to get along." Same holds true on these forums. I don't expect anything near everyone liking each other here. International forums, with people here with every type of background, of course disagreements will arise. I'm not here to make everyone friends with everyone else. I'm just here to ensure you all play nice together.
-
I'd like to know someone who has a life on the internet and a 100% different real life
Depending on who you talk to, I fit that bill. I'm actually a genuinely nice person to be around. Read my PM box and you'll think I'm the spawn of Satan out to end all humanity.
That doesn't mean not caring about being insulted or hurt on the internet. That just means not everyone likes you (not everyone likes me either). But if someone says "I'm going to kill myself" and I don't see that person in days, even if he/she lied, I get upset. This is the internet but being someone you're not or not believing anyone is not the solution, or at least, that's my opinion.
-
That doesn't mean not caring about being insulted or hurt on the internet.
Unfortunately for them, the sticks and stones argument comes into play. I'm perfectly happy with who I am, and could care less with what others think of me, so it doesn't bother or get me upset in the least. I just shrug it off and go on my merry way. I can't make everyone like me, so I don't try. People will always have different opinions on things.
At the end of the day, the only person that truly matters what they think of you, is you yourself. I can't force people to like me, or think positively of me, sooooo if they do, they do. If they don't, they don't. All I can do is going on living my life the way I want to live it, and as long as I'm happy being me, then that's all I care about.
-
Sometimes I wonder if all these "Stop being mean to me" threads are started by the same person just for a laugh. Probably not, I guess.
-
Note: The following is going to come off as 'harsh' and 'uncaring' to some people. Reader discretion advised.
As pointed out by Waven, yes, there is always a human being behind the screen. Not all of them are 'nice'. Not all of them are helpful. Not all of them are bleeding-heart emotionalists. Some will mean well, but come off as harsh or cold because they are not prolific writers. Some will have a sarcastic personality. Some will be blunt.
Yes, there are human beings behind every screen. Human beings with a vast array of personalities. There will be those that are harsher than others, and that will never change. It does not matter if you are on a forum, in IRC, or walking around in real life.
I have been accused of being 'harsh' or mean before just because I told someone something they needed to hear. Looking back, I do not feel "ashamed" in the least, and take offense at being told that 'we' should all be.
Honestly, this thread made me laugh a few times in a generally amused way. It reminded me of a stranger standing up on a soapbox in the middle of a crowd and shouting "We all need to be nicer to each other!" The nice people will agree, and continue to be nice. The friendy but sarcastic people will make comments to each other. The mean people will continue to be mean. In the end, you have someone standing on a soapbox with only a few people stopping to even pay attention.
That, my friends, is human nature. You can be sad about it, or you can deal with it. It is not about to change.
-
You are correct sir, as I said in the earlier post, we can tell people to be nice all we want, it's not going to make a real difference. I'm not going to say anything more here, I said eveything I needed to say in my earlier posts. I'm going to watch this thread today and if no one brings anything new to it, it will be locked. Although I do think there are people who will still want to have a say here.
-
Sure there are ;)
If I understand the last posts right.
It sounds like no one even considers taking feedback seriously and possibly change their behaviour. And because of I think there is at least a chance of people thinking about their own behaviour I see no reason why a community shouldn't try to change those who behave 'wrong' towards a behaviour that is regarded as better. (Speaking about people that are here since a longer time)
I possibly said nothing really new and just stated my opinion like many others, so I stop writing more. Most other things are anyway already in Anumesa's post. ;D
Sen
-
Pardon me, Parallo, Is that snide comment addressed to me?
What are you on about? I made no snide comments, I simply gave my opinion.
-
I quite agree with Sen, and would like rip the following out of UtMs context:
I told someone something they needed to hear
Now and then it certainly may be required to remind people of behaving. I experienced reminders like that irl more than once, and for the sake of getting along together the best way possible, people got aware again of their decay of manners.
After all, I am not sure if a comparison between RL and forums like these are that valid. If I had an annoying neighbourhood I would have bad luck or needed to move. This could be trouble, like changing job in case of harrassment.
But seriously er.. this is internet, if you dont like it then just shut your browser, after all this is nothing but a frickin game - the question would be if Planeshift cares at all about providing a place for people to join gladly.
-
I thought that object was to get new people to join PS. So if loosing just one player seems to mean nothing, and that is how it appears to me, I cannot help but wonder how this game is going to grow. Yes, even if this is the internet, we should be polite, or even kind. UTM, your comments totally shock me. If this game is supposed to be for adults, then I suggest we all act accordingly. If I was looking for a new game to play and read this thread, I would keep looking for something else.
The behavior I see here on these forums are embarrassing to say the least.
-
We lose players all the time for a multitude of reasons far worse than rudeness. They just don't make dramatic threads about it. Everything UTM said is completely true. You may not like it but not liking it won't change it.
-
/me waits for this thread to be locked now because it no longer serves any purpose.
-
It won't be locked unless there is a good reason to do so. We don't lock threads just for lockings sake. Please leave the moderation to the moderation staff.
-
We lose players all the time for a multitude of reasons far worse than rudeness. They just don't make dramatic threads about it. Everything UTM said is completely true. You may not like it but not liking it won't change it.
If we loose players there's a reason behind and in my opinion, we should know the reason why they leave. When PS was growing in the first stages of the project, I bet one player leaving was like a burial, and I would have left the game too if I hadn't found some nice people I want to keep in touch with. I have seen the best and the worst, drama queens, jerks and on the other side really nice people. In my opinion, if someone that can be considered nice leaves, I would be interested in knowing why and try to do something about it.
-
If we loose players there's a reason behind and in my opinion, we should know the reason why they leave.
If you are interested in the reasons why people leave just read the "complaint"- and the "goodbye"-threads. I think that the major reasons for people leaving are well known by now. And while the "rudness" of some members maybe one factor I don't consider it a major one.
-
Two things .....
[One]
We are all different people. Different ages, races, beliefs, up bringing, etc. Most of all there is that pesky thing called "perception". Not everyone sees the situations you encounter with them the way you do. Even worse, sometimes it is hard to remember that when caught up in your "emotion" or "debates" for lack of better words. The way I look at it is you have the people who are positive, negative, and neutral. It is fact that some positives won't get along with some neutrals but will get along with others. Some negatives will get along with some neutrals but will not get along with others. Positive and Negative will never get along. There you have it, human nature. I hope I didn't confuse you with my comparision to positive/negative/neutral and human nature.
I felt it important to remind the readers of this thread that these posts are in my opinion are thought out, well put and very honest. I agree with each of these people. I think this is very sound advice. Here are links to the comments I am speaking of. My hats off to all of you. I would hope people would consider that it is people like them and many others who actively try to make a difference with our forums. That in it's self should be proof of how this community likes to work out the issue's facing our forums and our players. If people would open their eyes and see that the positive is there just as much as the negative, maybe you wouldn't feel that the forums are a complete loss to harsh responses.
Anumesa's comments (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33109.msg381660#msg381660)
Neko's comments (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33109.msg381664#msg381664)
Under the moon's comments (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33109.msg381681#msg381681)
Eliseth's comments (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33109.msg381439#msg381439)
Lolitra's comments (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33109.msg381536#msg381536)
Zan's comments (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33109.msg381537#msg381537)
Mathy's comments (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32993.msg380215#msg380215)
[Two]
I hate it when people blame the forums for their reason for leaving. There will always be drama and hurt feelings. Players don't have to throw in the towel and quit the froums just because they don't like what they hear/read in a post. If your emotions rule you enough that a harsh comment will run you off .... then perhaps the internet is NOT for you. For the most part the forums are pretty relaxed. I mean all I hear is how bad the PlaneShift forums are and how people are leaving because of it. Please! Sure there were times when there were things said that I am sure we all felt could have been handled differently. When I first joined the forums (I had been in game for three months with out joining) I grew curious and decided to check out different forums, with different themes just to see if it was just the PS forums with "harsh posts". I was pleased with the results of my findings and came to appreciate how mild the people were with what they posted in the forums compared to some of the communities. Basically, I think some players have overly exaggerated the forums as being a bad place to partake in and in doing so this seems to have given the forums a bad reputation. Some of these players are also the reasons for the tension that can appear in the forums from time to time. Which leads me to this .....
Sometimes I wonder if all these "Stop being mean to me" threads are started by the same person just for a laugh. Probably not, I guess.
Yep it is definitely possible that people start stupid threads for the heck of it. What shocked me most is coming across a community member from PlaneShift, who is a veteran on the forums as well as in game. The "community member" has been here a long time. I used to have respect for this "community member" until I read his comments on another gaming forum. He laughed and thought it was funny because he would test the limits with the forums rules and the people of the community it's self. He would make up fake threads of different types. Sometimes it would be a fake guild posting, or a topic that you know would attract those who like to argue just for the sake of arguing. He bragged about it and asked others in this gaming forums to contact him and join in on the fun.
I hope that those of you who think that people out there can't possibly be heartless or mean. Indeed ... sadly enough, Prolix's wonder hit the nail on the head. Sometimes these threads aren't even real, and people are making them up. Not every time but I think more than we are willing to believe.
Thanks for reading, and remember think before your post. :)
-
Well before you start losing respect for people remember that it is also possible that the person on the other forum was an impostor, using someone else's nick to disguise themselves. Then again they may never have deserved your respect in the first place. It is hard to say, but even if you talked enough about in game past events to think you knew who you were talking to it is possible that it was really someone else who was always around and had third party knowledge. Of course if it was my alter ego's former nemesis... that would not surprise me.
-
I am sure that not all of my comments are as "nice" as possible. I am also sure that I am not intentionally "mean" to anyone. It is also "human nature" that some people are going to be offended if I say "The sky is blue". If you can be offended by a complete stranger making a comment to or about you, without knowing you at all... the internet is DEFINITELY not a place for you.
Does this excuse people making PERSONAL attacks on the forums, no. However, not every statement that offends you is a PERSONAL attack.
Some people just really need to gain some perspective. :)
-
just to let you know since I'm unable to PM you kjnelan, I got your PM and forwarded it to the admins.
:)
-
How can anything said by someone that doesn't know you be construed as a personal attack?
-
Most personal attacks spawn from someone's opinion, not necessarily having met the person whose post one is replying to. For instance, things like "Are you an idiot? Read my first post before you reply!" don't require any personal contact between forum users to be regarded as a personal attack. In fact, the notion that personal attacks cannot exist if the interlocutors are not acquainted serves to shield the aggression that nonetheless takes place, not so much because the poster doesn't know the person they are insulting but because that person doesn't know who the angry poster is and therefore dissociation between one's "RL" actions and one's internet persona is easier.
-
It appears that, like most questions, this one comes down to what we mean when we ask the question. That I wouldn't see as a personal attack. It would be a general attack (which I'm not saying is okay) but I wouldn't be any more offended by that than the next person but if someone said something directly related to me or a sensitive aspect of my life I would consider it personal. It is my opinion that if you cannot take such general attacks without being "shattered to pieces" then the internet is no place to be. At the same time I am under no circumstances saying that they should be accepted as the norm here, but it is the norm pretty much anywhere else on the internet and therefore one should be hoping for sun but preparing for rain, so to speak. I know places where threads like this would instantly be met with pictures of dismembered babies so we should be thankful that we have the moderation that we do rather than complaining.
-
Saying "are -you- and idiot?" is an affront on the person who it is aimed at - it is stating you are more superior in intellect, when you might not be. So, in fact it CAN be construed as a personal attack on them using words. To avoid this it would be better to say "Did you not read my post? Surely if you did you should have understood what I meant - however, to clarify it, let me expound on what I meant..."
You are not then seeming to belittle or name call. If you have to say something is wrong - try not to use words that can be deemed as offensive - such as stupid or idiotic... better to word it in a softer way - such as 'it is pointless for this reason' or 'did not really have any purpose or content for' you MUST always back your 'putting down' of anothers oppinion with reason, as to have a right to say your oppinion, you have a responsibility to listen to others' and give reason/understanding to yours.
To say that just because you don't know them, you cannot hurt them with your words is insensitive, and lacking of understanding of the human nature we all have. The written word is a powerful media and actually is known to cause more distress than the spoken when aimed at - or even seemingly aimed at an individual, or group.
Where-as some are less skilled at articulating themselves in either the spoken language or the written one, those who deem themselves as skilled at it only serve to harm their own reputation when they fail to consider the readers' reactions to what is written. That said - we all have failings, I am very quick to admit that - as I have fallen flat on my face from acting without taking the time to think first. And when I mean think - I don't mean about what upset me, but how what I reply may exacerbate a bad feeling if I write it as I think it.
I stress, the written word is something that can cut deep as it is more perminant - it is harder to take it back... and people find it harder to forgive.
Then there is the fact that 'translation' can cause serious misunderstandings... as each culture, language and age group has different uses for phrases and alike!
Please post as if you are posting to a person you respect and with whom you love dearly, do so with gentle persuation, and articulate reason - yes wrap it up in cotton - you may be surprised how more receptive the reader might be?
Sorry if I have bored the pants off of you readers.
-
I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts. I have not seen anyone been called an idiot here, save Datruth, and if I have it was that long ago I forgot therefore I would imagine that the problem isn't actual meanness but coldness, also known as professionalism in some circles. If my post isn't filled with love for someone I really don't know or care about, it is normal. If you expect it then you are the one that is mistaken. Basically, don't expect every post to be like a letter from your best friend or mother. It isn't rainbowland, its the internet.
-
I am sorry you feel that way, I in no way say that I EXPECT it of others... I just gave advice on how to avoid upsetting someone. So to quote yourself
I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts
you are quite right... Perhaps I should have said - are you so sure?
Nor did I say that anyone had called someone an 'idiot' or similar - I just expressed my oppinion as to how writing such things can be understood by some people. As to asking you to actually put 'love' into your post - I didn't say that I said "Please post as if..." there is a difference, it is the difference, if you cannot see that - I can only say sorry.
Inevitably there will always those who just post brashly - as you said - it is the internet - but consider this - "we reap what we sew." I cannot recall who originally said this - but to use a parrellel 'a society gets the government they deserve' and on that note if we decide to accept it - we deserve it.
-
Quote of the month, easy.
-
I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts. I have not seen anyone been called an idiot here, save Datruth, and if I have it was that long ago I forgot therefore I would imagine that the problem isn't actual meanness but coldness, also known as professionalism in some circles. If my post isn't filled with love for someone I really don't know or care about, it is normal. If you expect it then you are the one that is mistaken. Basically, don't expect every post to be like a letter from your best friend or mother. It isn't rainbowland, its the internet.
Still, it takes less then 30 seconds to reword a sentence so that it is less likely for the meaning to be misconstrued. Sure, the posts don't have to be ridiculous: "Friend, lets sit and meditate on this issue while sharing a mocha espresso", but they can still be polite. In fact, it takes ZERO effort to be polite, since half the effort is taken away from you with the anonymity of the internet. You don't have to control your tone of voice, your facial expression, body language etc. All you have to do is move your fingers and type a simple polite response. There is nothing preventing us from being decent to each other except for the egos of some, who still feel the need to force their superior intellect down the throats of others.
I agree that since this -is- the internet and it -is- anonymous, you dont -have- to be polite to everyone...in fact that is your choice not to be so, but when half the community could consider a person an ass because of their rude comments (im not thinking of anyone specifically, its just a generalization), it seems to me that the easier path would just be to be polite. Then again, some, like Parallo pointed out, don't care what others think. It is an individual choice to think before you type, and yes no one can be forced to do so...but to me at least it is common sense to do so.
-
I do not think the problem is how people post, it is how people read posts.
Just a simple question - at what point in your mind does the problem start to lie at the feet of the person posting - rather than the reader who is affronted by what is written? I am a staunch beleiver in the right to an oppinion - but - how far down the line do we go before we say - 'hey hang on - that was just plain rude, or that was inappropriate, or just uncalled for... ' should we have to wait until then - or as I think some may agree - should we not take steps by example to avoid getting to that stage? You never know, it might just catch on. [Though I some how doubt it as there are those who just relish antaganising others]
If there were no reader there would be no problem with the post and what is meant by it, but as soon as someone starts to read it, there lies the problem - how do they understand what they think you meant in it?
-
First off, I’d like to say that these forums have actually become a lot more welcoming over the past year or two. Back when I was new, the PS forums where seriously caustic and I’d read them but, you couldn’t pay me to post. However, I’d like to point out that even the often hostile atmosphere of the forums back then, in no way made me want to stop playing the game. If a person judged every game by their forums, I don’t think anyone would ever even try playing a computer game ever again. People may get mad and leave the forums from time to time but, I honestly don’t think that having “mean” people on the PS forums is a very common reason for player/testers actually leaving the game.
Secondly, I don’t think that the way a post is received in most cases is entirely the fault of the reader or the writer. In general I see a few main things that seem to contribute fault to both parties, blaming one or the other just seems like an extreme to me and intuitively it seems that the truth is somewhere more in the middle.
To the reader:
If something can be construed in two ways, one “attacking” and the other comical, always choose to read it in the comical way. 9 times out of 10 it was meant to be funny and even if it wasn’t, at least you got a chuckle out of it and the “attacker” didn’t even get the satisfaction of a reaction.
The world and all the people on the forums aren’t out to get you. Just because someone makes a general comment you may disagree with or seems to include your type, doesn’t mean that it was directed at you. People are usually too caught up in themselves to really come up with such subtle jabs at someone else. ;) Disagree and counter the argument all you want but, do your best not to take it personally.
To the posters:
Professional courtesy is still part of posting in a professional tone. A little politeness can go a long way. People aren’t robots and still need a little kindness or at least tactful respect. Even in professional circles, it’s what makes the world go round.
Odds are if you go back and look at some of your first posts, they’ll make you cringe at least a little. Everyone was new at some point. Sure it gets really old commenting on the same thing about specific PS forum rules or how to create a really killer PS guild but, they aren’t doing it to annoy you, they’re new and most likely don’t know you from Talad. Try to teach not tell.
---
Finally, just as a closing comment, if everyone involved with PlaneShift had a massive bout of shame come over them every time someone decided they wanted to spend their time doing something else, we mine as well just change the release from Crystal Blue to a perpetual Guilty Green. As hard as it may be to believe, PS may not be the best fit for everyone. Some individuals, for whatever reason, may be happier playing some other game or doing something else. That's not really the fault of PlaneShift or it's community. Just like some real life relationships don't work out, if someone "breaks up" with PS, then I assume it just wasn't meant to be. To borrow and tweak an old saying, "you can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."
Edit:
"Friend, lets sit and meditate on this issue while sharing a mocha espresso"
I'm totally going to use that one of these days. :P
-
Personal Attack: "Cado, you're an ignoramus elitist slob and I hope you die in a fire and then your ashes drown in a pool of your own vomit that you puked up just before dying in said fire."
General Attack: "To the rest of the community, I hate you all. You all smell like rotten eggs and you can all just gtfo mah forums before I resort to ban hammering each and every one of you."
Both are unacceptable and causal for the ban stick. The moderation staff is here to ensure that threads don't get out of line and that they don't devolve to the type of examples listed above. This isn't to say that people should treat the moderation staff as "big daddy" that will always be there to right what is wronged and all that jazz.
I'm pretty much laid back for moderations' sake. Sure, I'll lock/delete/whatever some things I find that could cause trouble or try to play go between between groups that are starting to get a bit snippy at each other, but for the most part I try to keep to the ideal that if everyone just thinks about what they are about to type, before they type it out and push that post button, and think about how your post may come across to others, then for the most part, my job as moderator would never be needed. I know, I know, civility on the internet? I must be crazy. But hell, I'd like to think a poor kitty can still have his dreams though.
And this thread ties into my points, sooooo if you haven't read it, go read it and the article linked therein, and if you have, go read it again. :P http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32840.0
Edit: and one more thing. Looking on the bright side, at least no one has tried to start a your momma fight yet. ::)
-
Still, it takes less then 30 seconds to reword a sentence so that it is less likely for the meaning to be misconstrued.
Being clear and unambiguous is not the same thing as being polite.
Just a simple question - at what point in your mind does the problem start to lie at the feet of the person posting - rather than the reader who is affronted by what is written?
It is a vague point as so far in our discussion the only example of a rude post in your opinion is calling someone an idiot which simply doesn't happen here. Give me an example of what you would consider borderline rude and I will tell you my opinion and why I hold that opinion.
-
Personal Attack: "Cado, you're an ignoramus elitist slob and I hope you die in a fire and then your ashes drown in a pool of your own vomit that you puked up just before dying in said fire."
General Attack: "To the rest of the community, I hate you all. You all smell like rotten eggs and you can all just gtfo mah forums before I resort to ban hammering each and every one of you."
Both are unacceptable and causal for the ban stick. The moderation staff is here to ensure that threads don't get out of line and that they don't devolve to the type of examples listed above. This isn't to say that people should treat the moderation staff as "big daddy" that will always be there to right what is wronged and all that jazz.
I'm pretty much laid back for moderations' sake. Sure, I'll lock/delete/whatever some things I find that could cause trouble or try to play go between between groups that are starting to get a bit snippy at each other, but for the most part I try to keep to the ideal that if everyone just thinks about what they are about to type, before they type it out and push that post button, and think about how your post may come across to others, then for the most part, my job as moderator would never be needed. I know, I know, civility on the internet? I must be crazy. But hell, I'd like to think a poor kitty can still have his dreams though.
And this thread ties into my points, sooooo if you haven't read it, go read it and the article linked therein, and if you have, go read it again. :P http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32840.0
Edit: and one more thing. Looking on the bright side, at least no one has tried to start a your momma fight yet. ::)
Wouldn't it be "You're an ignoramus and an elitist slob"? :P
Or "You're an ignorant, elitist slob"... :P
And I try to be a very well informed elitist slob, thank you very much!
On topic though, I don't see any need to moderate posts that are only somewhat rude. To quote "National Lampoon's Van Wilder" "Censorship reflects societies lack of confidence in itself." But, striving to be nice is always a good thing to do. Just don't expect everybody to follow along and a harsh response is quite often exactly what is needed.
-
Why is this dumb argument continuing? All it serves to do is to make all participants look like they have nothing better to do than squabble over trifles. Get a life! Better still, get a Knife and cut it out.
Sometimes the problem is not in the writing nor the reading but different locale specific meanings for idioms used. You cannot blame the writer for using a phrase that means "you are great" in his community just as you cannot blame the reader if it means "what a jerk" in his community. A classic example of this problem is the use of the N-word which some urbanized afro-Americans have adopted for themselves. Another example is some Italian Canadian called me paesano and I though he was insulting me when he thought he was calling me neighbor or some such thing.
Wasn't I rude to call this argument dumb? ;) It is kind of dumb but it is not nice to just say so.
-
Now that we have all gotten this off our chests, can we agree that we are all different? We are from all over the world, some with limited English skills and some with superior skills. The bottom line is that we are all in this together and should try to be polite to each other whenever possible. No we do not have to love each other, but we can try to be a team and play the best we can. The forums are a bonus for us where we can speak our mind, but that does not give anyone permission to be rude.
Rude defined by Merriam-Webster:
lacking refinement or delicacy: a: IGNORANT, UNLEARNED b: INELEGANT, UNCOUTH c: offensive in manner or action : DISCOURTEOUS d: UNCIVILIZED, SAVAGE e: COARSE, VULGAR
On a personal note: Kjenlan you seem like a nice person I would like to hear from you again, but if I do not, I wish you well.
-
AHHHHHH! ???
There is so much blame the gets thrown around in this forums. It is both the poster and the readers fault. Not one OR the other. This also involves common sense, and communication between posters and readers.
It is the posters choice to not re-word a post the may sound flamish, or not to bother wording a post in a way which would be taken offense if it is a delicate topic.
It is the readers choice for thinking that the post maybe flamish and deciding to argue rather than just leave it alone or find out if it was even directed at you and meant to offend.
I have been on either end of this stupid debate. I have both taken offense when I shouldn't have and given offense by not meaning to. What I did to fix those misuderstandings is to post a public apology if it was needed and talk to the person who thought I had offened them. I went out of my way to fix my messes and arguements out of the public eye as much as possible so that other readers didn't have to even know there was an issue.
If your part of the problem then by god people start cleaning up your own messes and stop blaming what ever is most convenient.