PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mathy Stockington on October 27, 2008, 06:09:57 pm
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First off I wish to address the moderators of this forum. Please allow this thread and do not either lock it or delete it. My hope is some good will come of it.
Ok here it goes:
I see many conflicts here and in game. I am very saddened by it. The forum is an extension of the game and the conflicts are very evident. What I want to do in this thread is hear how we can deal with these situations so maybe it will stop or maybe it can be handled in a better way.
For example: The situation with Lolitra’s guild house how that could have been handled in a better way? Certainly I do understand the passion that this game brings out in all of us. I just wish that we could get past the conflicts so that we can play. [On a personal note I lost two great friends in that situation and that should not have happened.] I hope it will help all of us.
Please do not make this a thread of conflicts in itself. That is not what I want to see here. Suggest ways to make things better. If someone has problems and wishes to state them so he/she can handle their conflicts with good sound advise then do not hesitate. Let this be a positive thread that we can all gain from.
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I have seen lots of conflict on the forums, and until last night, not so much in-game. I have seen some very adolescent attitudes cropping up recently, but mostly ignore them in-game. On the forums, well, I tend to make sure issues that I feel are important don't get swept under the rug. Does this mean that people get frustrated or irritated with me... probably. Am I ever attacking people personally, not intentionally.
I try to keep the discussion about the game, not the person behind a character/poster. That is the best way I can suggest of trying to keep people from getting offended and blowing things out of proportion. However, I cannot keep people from taking my statements personally, so even this is not foolproof.
BTW... what happened with guildhouses? I saw a notice up a Kada's, and now this post...
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Use
Common
Sense.
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Behaviour on The Internet, and thus in the Game are just reflections of real life, often magnified by the cloak of percieved annonimity that these outlets give you. Conflicts are unavoidable.
The above also applies to the astounding lack of common sense that is often displayed.
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Communication. Period.
Assumptions are bad, especially when we can't read each others facial expressions and body language. We have all done it. I myself have learned to not take anything personal until I know for sure it was meant that way, especially on the forums.
One other thing that helps is to not let the issue get to you so much. Some people just want confrontation. They don't care about the solution. That is when you need to take a step back and let go of the issue. Not so easy (especially for some of us) but necessary.
This is kinda off topic but .....
I have to say something that is bugging me. Anyone who gets angry enough to delete their character and leave the game because something didn't work out their way .... well .... was never loyal to the game or it's RP. Only to themselves and their ideals. It is a very selfish act and it proves nothing to anyone. You just end up losing a character you put your hard work into and leaving behind a mess for your former player friends to clean up.
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Use
Common
Sense.
I agree with this statement. The thing about it is that someone's idea of common sense is not necessarily the same as someone's else. Herein lies a difficulty better known as a conflict. So how do we try to make this right?
Communication. Period.
Assumptions are bad, especially when we can't read each others facial expressions and body language. We have all done it. I myself have learned to not take anything personal until I know for sure it was meant that way, especially on the forums.
Excellent advice!!
One more question: How do resolve problems when the other person refuses to talk it out? /ignore really does not do anything, but gets people upset.
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Conflict sifts out the weak, and makes the strong even stronger.
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The situation with Lolitra’s guild house how that could have been handled in a better way?
If you're gonna do something like that, then you might as well let the other guy consent to it. I don't want PS to cater to griefers too much, but then again I don't want PS to be too carebear friendly either.
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You should also know when to let things go. Blowing things out of proportion with unnecessary drama is a big factor so always keep in mind that this is just a game. That means that you should not expect to meet the best friend of your life, your one and only soul mate, or the mentor who is going to change your destiny while you play it. If it happens, good for you, but chances are it won't.
There are jerks everywhere and the more attention you give them the worse they get. Sometimes it's not worth the hassle. If stating your opinion and sharing your side of the story does not help, not much else will, so it's better to just drop it and keep enjoying the game. If things escalate and people start breaking rules, the GM team will intervene.
Now, regarding the recent events regarding the House of Purrty, the actions of the player behind said event were deemed against the rules since they carried the intention to cause grief. Therefore the player was punished. When the player exposed his ideas for this event on IRC, he was given boundaries he chose to disrespect. For future reference, keep in mind that some players will attempt to bother/annoy/disrupt other people's gaming experience through alleged IC actions and while those IC actions may be convincing, they do not hide the intention to cause grief, which is considered an act of harassment and will not be tolerated. If you are invited to join such a plot, ask yourself and those behind it if everyone involved will enjoy it, whether they win or lose before carrying out your plan. Otherwise, the outcome may ruin your own gaming experience.
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Conflict is a form of communication, and common sense simply doesn't exist; that is, there is not a way to see things shared by everybody.
But conflict is not violence, and a person one confronts is not an enemy. Debate is conflict. Suggestions are often conflicting, and result in compromises. And different ways of playing end up in countless conflicts through this forum.
There's nothing wrong with expressing passion, until it hurts someone. If one feels hurt, he should always let some time pass before responding, so the passion lowers, and feelings can be told in the content of the text, not in its form. 90% of the times I read someone being hurt, I don't actually see anything hurtful in the text; people take things personally, which is a form of egocentrism, whereas whoever wrote was also thinking of self (obviously). If ones gets hurt by a comment, one should read it again and again. The point is not to agree, but to accept what the interlocutor says before answering, because the words are feelings and thoughts, not tennis balls to be thrown back and forth until exhaustion. The form is what makes a comment pleasant to read, but the content is what does matter.
If you find a conflict to be sterile, just leave it. If a conflict makes you think, keep going. The way I see it (without knowing the details), the conflict you are referring to is needed: there is a big mess that noone wanted, and many want to know who is hurt, or to tell that they are hurt, and regrets need to be expressed, points of view given, until all remember that they are talking about a game. So let it flow. You'll have to discover where it leads; probably to the recovery of peace.
Ah, and to handle a conflict, it's always good to have a mediator whom everyone would accept as a neutral ground. Like the wise old women councils of our long lost matriarchies. I know, that's not so easy to find.
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Conflict is a form of communication, and... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah? The point is not to agree, but to accept what the interlocutor says before answering, because the words are feelings and thoughts, not tennis balls to be thrown back and forth until exhaustion. The form is what makes a comment pleasant to read, but the content is what does matter. Blah blah blah.
and to handle a conflict, it's always good to have a mediator whom everyone would accept as a neutral ground. Like the wise old women councils of our long lost matriarchies. I know, that's not so easy to find.
In fewer words: "Grow a pair and move on."
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blah yourself. :lol:
See, you do like conflicts.
In my book, you've just been aggressive.
Just like you've been with Lolitra.
Now grow a pair and deny it.
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I do not want this thread locked. Please stay focused.
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Well, to be honest, you've just gotten an example of what you were talking about resolving. From my perspective, this was not a personal attack (please correct me if I am wrong), but rephrasing of the long explanation for those that need a more direct answer. Of course I work with some rather rough individuals and don't take offence at rather pointed language. So maybe i'm not the best judge of what is considered incendiary.
Grow a thicker skin and don't take [EDIT]things personally is definitely warranted in ANY internet venture.
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For some people this is "just" a game, but for others it is more than that. It is a hobby in which they put time into it. Some more, some less. Some in this way and some in another way.
I can totally understand hat people get hurt by actions of others. But should we get hurt by words from people on the internet?
Think about it. You get hurt by written words, as Zorbels has stated it before, we neither can see the facial expressions nor the body language of the person we're talking to on the Internet.
And without those chances are that we misunderstand eachother. Not always a blunt form is meant to be rude. Keep in mind that not everyone is a native English speaker and not every native English speaker is a master at expressing theirselves through written words.
Taken those facts into consideration it's clear (at least to me) why some conflicts occur. The question is just how we should handle those conflicts. IMHO khoridor said it already and I totally agree with it:
If ones gets hurt by a comment, one should read it again and again. The point is not to agree, but to accept what the interlocutor says before answering, because the words are feelings and thoughts, not tennis balls to be thrown back and forth until exhaustion. The form is what makes a comment pleasant to read, but the content is what does matter.
If you got hurt by someones words, ask yourself if they really meant to hurt you. Take some time to cool down and think about it a few times before answering.
@ Mathy, as you brough it up yourself, I'm going to use the incident with Lolitras guildhouse as an example.
For Lolitra it is more than a game, it is a hobby she puts much time and effort in and she being hurt by the things happened is understandable.
For you it also is more than a game, I can see all the feelings you put into PlaneShift and you got hurt for loosing two friends.
Now it happened that you got hurt by something Lolitra said in her guild thread, but you got to ask yourself if she intended to attack you personally. I honestly doubt she intended any attacks.
I can only give you an advice, based on my personal opinion: Read over a comment a few times and ask yourself if the writer wanted to attack you or not. If you get hurt and/or pushed up by those words take a little break before replying to them.
Often a few minutes are already enough.
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Oddly enough Vonor that is exactly what I did. I only wish I could give Lolitra a big hug and ask her for her friendship back. How sad!! And yes I might take these things to heart to much, but it means a lot to me.
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From my perspective, his reply was not a personal attack (otherwise sterile => I just leave it), but a perfect example of an instant, off topic answer. And I followed by an example of why, probably, he ends up into conflicts in the first place.
Well, if you found my post offensive, or aggressive, mea culpa. I'm not an old wise woman anyway.
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I guess we are entitled to our words. Maybe is how the other people receives them is the issue.
Anyway, how do we deal with /ignore if we wish to make things right with a person who will not communicate with us?
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Mathy, it's never to late. You still can talk to Lolitra and I'm sure things can get solved - they keyword here is communication :)
Khoridor, I'm unsure what you're referring to, for the case your referred to my post though: I agreed with you :detective:
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Anyway, how do we deal with /ignore if we wish to make things right with a person who will not communicate with us?
Use a mediator. I think I can guess why she would ignore you (as I pointed out earlier). So find a common friend, preferably not involved at all in the event, and try to talk through him or her.
And be patient.
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Please, I have not said 'I hate' any one, or 'your no longer my friend'.
I have only expressed my hurt at ''not being consulted about such an impactive RP" which incidently lost several things that are not easily replacable - i.e. they were written things by players, who do not have back ups of them.
Yes I did wear my heart on my sleave, but I think I was justified in this, when so openely challenged after I posted a 'rough understanding' not a full one...
Communication is the key here, and understanding of your own words too as well as gaining a grasp of what is said by others.
I ask only one thing, have a read of the first post directly after my first mention of this Guild House matter... and bear in mind, my first entry was not to assume foul play, but to ask if it was permitted (i.e. RP or a game glitch) then I edited it, after I was informed of an very odd incident - I did not go into detail, nor name names... and ask yourself this, why did Lolitra then go on the defensive, what was written that could be interpreted as a direct attack on her personallity?
[hmm that was odd, talking about myself in the third party.. oh well]
In this matter I feel I am constantly on a back foot, being rielled... The other thread is locked - so why start a new one - it feels to me that someone wants to make me feel bad...
Congratulations, I do. I am sick [well actually I am truely sick, but that is another matter... ] but of this pettiness that could so easily been avoided if the instigator did the right thing in the first instance, like all good RPers really aught to do - ask if those it will effect wish to partake in the up coming RP.
Why this incident involving the 'guildhouse' came about is beyond me, what spurred such an act of spontanious chaos and bad judgement followed by same on many peoples parts is now over... all we can do is learn by it and get back to playing fairly, considerately and most importantly - in a way that gets maximum fun for all.
All welcome to join in, and I mean ALL.
Lolitra
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Lolitra,
First: I wish you well as I always have.
Second: I started this thread to really see if something beneficial could possibly come of it.
Thirdly: I am really getting tired of the conflicts.
This is another issue I encountered in game recently with someone I considered a friend who I greatly admire; As we chatted in tells I told this person I was having difficulty role playing with her. She said of course you are because I play a queer and you cannot play with someone like that. She told me she tried to 'tune it down' just for me. An argument ensued over my ability to role play. It ended with my logging out of game.
Therefore I made this thread not to belittle you or cause harm. Quite on the contrary I really want to know how best to deal with conflicts.
I called a fellow co-worker a nasty name today, but because she could see the smile on my face she laughed and handed it right back to me. We both laughed. No harm was done.
Zorbels is correct in that there is no eye contact so when we are joking someone else might not know it. There is also a language barrier in some cases that might not be apparent. I have been stalked, been lied to, and criticized and for me I just hate the conflicts and wish it would stop.
That is reason for this thread.
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Conflict is what keeps 'em coming back. I think we should find ways to make more conflict.
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I agree, to a point. I think that it shouldn't be guaranteed to travel between Akkaio and BD without being mobbed by monsters or players or whatever. I do not think that the "utopia" that PS (not the google tech talk PS, but the one we keep getting told has no conflict between races) is does not allow for room to justify wars or larger scale conflicts between groups of players... at least for IC reasons.
I'll overlook the obvious right now, except to say that it was NOT a good source of conflict.
But to get back on-topic, this was about resolving player disputes. PLAYERS getting out of line and what-not.
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I know. Thats what I'm talking about. Its entertaining.
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I know. Thats what I'm talking about. Its entertaining.
Might I ask what you find 'entertaining' Parallo? I do not understand.
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When you people get all upset over a game it gives all the enjoyment of trolling with none of the consequences. When I get bored I can have some entertainment without getting banned by just reading the forums.
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This thread is incredible. Someone says "Use common sense" and then people expend incredible amounts of effort to ignore it. The Quantity Theory of Insanity garners yet more empirical support.
As for you Mathy, I don't see the problem. I"ve always found you a little queer.
/me nods and LMAO
(technically it should be lhao)
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This thread is incredible. Someone says "Use common sense" and then people expend incredible amounts of effort to ignore it. The Quantity Theory of Insanity garners yet more empirical support.
As for you Mathy, I don't see the problem. I"ve always found you a little queer.
That is odd because I cannot even remember you at all. So not to cause another conflict, but at least I am memorable. That says a lot.
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Common sense (or, when used attributively as an adjective, commonsense, common-sense, or commonsensical), based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" (in common) as their common natural understanding. Some people[who?] use the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people allegedly have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have.
Whatever definition one uses, identifying particular items of knowledge as "common sense" becomes difficult. Philosophers may choose to avoid using the phrase when using precise language. But common sense remains a perennial topic in epistemology and many philosophers make wide use of the concept or at least refer to it. Some related concepts include intuitions, pre-theoretic belief, ordinary language, the frame problem, foundational beliefs, good sense, endoxa, and axioms.
Common-sense ideas tend to relate to events within human experience (such as good will), and thus appear commensurate with human scale. Humans lack any commonsense intuition of, for example, the behavior of the universe at subatomic distances; or speeds approaching that of light.
from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
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I think this says that 'common sense' is what a person perceives is logical in their good judgment, therefore what might work for one person might not work for another. That does not mean anyone is wrong, it just means that what we think makes common sense might not be what another thinks is common sense.
So take a moment before we type so that we do not do any harm to anyone. Each day is a learning experience if we want it to be.
I agree with Zorbels communication is most important. We just have try to do this in the correct way.
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Common Sense: if you get what is wrong with what the below person states, you probably have it.
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/fail-owned-drought-trigger-science-fail.jpg)
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that is awesome...absolutely brillant...now to see if he is the winner of the next darwin award.
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opps, Rinenud you are correct. Sorry I did miss that. Thank you for pointing it out and my error.
neko that post is fantastic. Thank you for it.
Maybe for this we should call it 'good sense' instead.
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Semantics. It all comes down to a player did not use good judgment, would not listen to reason, got upset because the event was 'paused' while a compromise was worked out, defied a direct order by GMs to not take any items, willfully destroyed (either directly or by instigating the action) data created by others that can not be easily replaced, insulted a Dev, GM, and other players who were trying to reason with him, then created a new character with a foul name to willfully break the naming rules and further insult the GMs, and finally told people he was going to pass out keys to other guildhouses to random players in secret as retribution for the GMs ruining his 'RP'.
That is not common sense by any definition of the word. Yes, it should not have happened. You should not have lost a friend. However, the blame rests squarely on one person's shoulders. That person is now having a time out.
My definition of 'common sense'? Don't do anything stupid. That rule was violated.