PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: pheloniusfriar on November 18, 2008, 05:52:01 am
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I got P.O.'ed with Blizzard and WoW and decided to check out other MMORPGs. I spent a couple of days looking around and saw that PlaneShift was built on an open source platform and decided to make it my first attempt to try something new. I read the web pages, registered my account and downloaded the client. I realize that the game was in the Alpha phase but figured that I'd still give it a try (with a very open mind due to its development state). If nothing else, maybe I could contribute with feedback on the game as well as any technical issues I discovered.
The first thing I encountered was the OpenAL32.dll missing issue. I searched the BugTracker and didn't find anything on it. Now, my bad... but I posted a bug report before searching for the solution here. It was dismissed as "not a bug" and I was pointed here. I also posted a bug report that there was no category for the installer itself. I can argue about the second one, but it's just for developers so it's not a big deal; however, I am a little rankled about the first. It's not too hard to fix, and it just took me a little bit of 'net searching to find the solution, and I know there's a way to repair it with the updater now that I've read the forums (although I haven't tried it since I fixed it with the OpenAL installer). What bugs me is that the installer will be a new user's first experience with the game, and not everyone is going to be able to resolve technical issues like that and will just give up. Even if it's not a problem with PlaneShift per se, it still impacts a user's experience and it would be *nice to have* if it handled the setup of middleware like OpenAL that is not likely to be installed on the average person's computer... especially since the OpenAL stuff is also free.
I had originally planned to open a series of problem reports (most of them low priority) and feature requests with the stuff I found as I tried to play, but I've decided to just dump it all here and if anyone on the dev team wants me to codify them in the BugTracker, I'd be happy to try my best to file quality entries. These are in rough chronological order as I found them, but there's no other order implied or otherwise (fyi, I was on a Windows/XP system (1024x768 fullscreen mode) as I was trying it... I also have Linux systems I can try):
- On logging in: typed username and password, then clicked on the server listed to the right, and doing that cleared my username and password
- There did not seem to be a volume control on the login or character creation screens. It was so loud ... I tried to turn it down with my mixer, but it didn't seem to make any difference... as though PlaneShift was overriding my OS level selection
- During character creation: life events font was too large to see the whole string and it didn't wrap very well
- When I pressed the Join button at one point, it didn't do anything ... and also didn't give me an error or indication of what I needed to do properly
- On my first ever login: the window with the buy/sell/trade buttons in it was kind of in the middle of the screen. It would have made more sense to me if it had started in the lower right corner or somewhere against the top or bottom and a side. I figured out how to move it though. The same was true of the stats window... upper right corner?
- In approaching the first NPC, the tutorial said that a red marker would appear under the selected entity, but I couldn't seem to get it to work until after I succeeded in chatting with the NPC and typed "hi". Doing a successful left click seemed to have activated the ability to right click and get the menu. This may be noob issues, but if it was not a subtle bug, then getting that first interaction was very cumbersome. It seemed to work fine after that, so that's what leads me to suspect a code issue
- When I accidentally hit the Quit icon, I got the "Do you really want to leave?" screen; however, the text over both the yes and the no choices both said "Quit"...
- I found it really hard to read the dialog bubbles over the character's head before they disappear (and sometimes it was cut off at the top of the screen). I was forced to ignore the NPC and read from the chat window. It really detracted from the gameplay experience and kept pulling me out of immersion. A suggestion: leave the bubble up until I do something ... like click on something or move
- I eventually figured it out, but at first I didn't think the dialog/messages window could be resized. Neither the pages I'd read nor the tutorial explained to me what to do (it might be there, but it was not obvious from the overview reading I did). The control was only learned by experimentation, but I didn't think it was particularly intuitive.
- When the chat menu *was* resized, it was really awkward looking artwise with everything all stretched linearly (just a resize of the artwork rather than a resize of the box... the sides and top should scale but leave the dimensions of the artwork the same). The font getting larger was also weird. Finally, the green blotchy highlights that resized along with the box looked really weird ... and blotchy ... when the window was made larger
- Speaking of the dialog/chat box, I found the constant flashing of the System or Main green highlights to be very distracting. If it was highlighted and solid (not flashing) that wouldn't be so bad. That would have alerted me to new text, but would not pull my attention forcibly away from gameplay
- The other thing I noticed when I resized the chat window was that although the font I typed in was still the same size, the cursor (before I started typing) was very tall and extended well into the artwork around the entry field box
- I was playing with the scroll wheel while the NPC was selected and I had a lot of trouble getting out of camera mode
- View movement: I found the need to use the PgUp/PgDn keys to look up and down to be very distracting while I tried to walk. Most games I have used, you can use some key/mouse combination (i.e. Shift and mouse movement) to change the basic orientation of the camera. I really wish I could have done it when I got to the edges of things and wanted to look down as well. I don't know what the plans are for this sort of control, but something is needed, imho, to allow movement and the adjustment of camera angle simultaneously to really help with the immersion
- When I typed "Hi, Miss Abelia sent me", the NPC didn't understand, but when I typed "Miss Abelia sent me", it worked... Is this sort of free form communication with NPCs really going to work? Dealing with even the most basic of interactions may ultimately prove to be very frustrating for both the users (who may not all be clever enough to guess the magic phrase to open the cave) and the developers (who will have to deal with constant whining about what didn't work in dealing with an NPC). The flip side is that if you could get this system to work most of the time (with web sites dedicated to phrases that *did* work for a particular NPC for a particular quest), then that might actually be pretty cool if it was something that was also open sourced and could be worked on by the larger language recognition community
- The "Accept Trade" and "Open Inventory" icons were the same in the Exchange window (a temporary state of affairs I would imagine, but I'm just listing all the stuff I noticed)
- When I wanted to walk, it was hard to do after speaking to an NPC. I tried hitting Esc and that closed the chat window, but still wouldn't let me move. To move, I had to click somewhere off the NPC to exit the "red marker" mode and then I could move. I gave it a chance, but even after doing it a bunch of times, it still felt awkward.
- An NPC said goodbye to me and I replied with "bye" and got the "I'm sorry ... I can't understand" you speech... see my comment above I guess. I was all excited at having accomplished a minor quest and was trying to talk "in character" when such a simple interchange broke down and left me frustrated
- When I right clicked on an NPC and brought up the "interaction choices" icons (which... are in front of the character... I found that very distracting!), when I clicked on the "Chat" icon, it brought up the chat window, but did not activate the cursor or put my focus into the text input box... I still had to go over and click in the input box so I could type
- In the chat window, there does not seem to be any way to cut and paste... this really detracted from the flow of things as I tried to communicate with NPCs
That's all I wrote down, and it was mostly during the tutorial, but I logged in fully and went to the city. I wandered around for a while but had no idea what to do next and continued to have issues interacting with NPCs. It was getting late and I decided that I'd had enough for one day (even though I hadn't actually played anything, I was simultaneously overwhelmed by everything I needed to figure out, and frustrated that the UI was not behaving the way I kept hoping it would). I am planning to log back in when I have more time to devote to trying some quests or something and see how that goes.
I hope my descriptions provide some good feedback on some of the issues I encountered during my brief interaction with PlaneShift. If you need me to clarify anything, test something specific around what I said, or contribute in some other way, please let me know. Now these are all "complaints", but I also have seen how much has *been* accomplished! I'm very excited that this game is in development and am looking forward to seeing more as it continues to take shape!
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The text parsing to talk to NPCs has been discussed many times. It is the Devs decision to stay with this interface and to slowly work to make it better. The only advice I can give, is to keep things simple. Look very hard for what the NPCs say when they send you to another NPC. They will almost always give you a hint as to what to say. They usually respond well to hi, hello, or thank you. I don't know about bye... I haven't tried that one before. But NPC interaction is sometimes more about solving riddles, than conversing in fluid speech.
On the flip side though, chatting in "main" with other characters should be much more appealing to you.
Some of the other things, like clicking the speak icon... may be worthy of inclusion in the bug tracker. It should allow you to go directly to typing your phrase to the npc... IMHO.
I hope you enjoy things once you get familiar with the interface. If you want to look for my character when you are online, please feel free to ask me any questions you may have there. Same name as here.
Welcome to PS.
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Please do familiarize yourself with the bug tracker and post as many bugs as you can.
Many devs do not spent time on the forums hunting for things to fix.
The bug tracker is our primary interface for making changes that people desire.
Myself and a few others try to use the forum for feedback but the forum is somewhat skewed in favor of long term users who have much different desires than new players.
Your many observations will be most useful for our engine team who seldom reads this forum.
BTW most npcs will answer "Bye" now on the server as soon as the next server restart.
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Sigh... I've tried reporting a few of the observations through BugTracker... just to dip my toes in before tackling some of the bigger issues I experienced when I started to play and maybe even getting involved in the coding side of things. Well, I'm afraid that my experience has been... terminal. I tried to re-open the bug report about the OpenAL32.dll issue only to have my request rejected because there are ways around it and it will be fixed in the next release. Fair enough, but when I use bug tracking systems, I keep all reports open until they are resolved. Maybe it's just my opinion, but any sort of usability thing like that would normally get high attention so as not to discourage new users from coming on board. Maybe the dev team only wants people that are technically savvy, but they should say that up front and that'd be cool with me. I had the impression they were looking for a broader swath of the public, so I'm puzzled. I tried another bug report ... a nice simple one ... of the issue where on the "quit" screen that if you mouse over "yes" it says "quit", but if you mouse over "no" it says "quit". The bug report was closed... This is apparently "not a bug" because the way that the app is designed, the mouseover text is not related to the selection, but to the name of the window. I see this then as an even larger bug now. I entered the report because I thought it would be a trivial matter to change the "meta" mouseover information for the "no" selection to something like "cancel", but it is apparently a limitation of how the windows are implemented. Either way, I still see it as a user interface bug because it provides misleading (or at least unhelpful) information to the user. Anyways, it looks like I'm not going to get along well with the dev team and I think I'll be bowing out gracefully before I get in their way any further with my opinions. BTW, thanks so much to "Xillix Queen of Fools" for actually taking my comment about "bye" seriously... because of him I know I can't paint the whole dev team with the same brush. When PlaneShift comes to fruition as a "1.0" release, perhaps I'll see how things went. Best of luck to all on the journey!
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BTW, thanks so much to "Xillix Queen of Fools" for actually taking my comment about "bye" seriously... because of her I know I can't paint the whole dev team with the same brush.
I don't really want to get into this discussion but XilliX is a man.
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Heh... duly noted and updated ;). Thx!
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It would have been nice to have you join us. I do hope that you will try again in the near future. You will be welcomed I assure you of that.
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The project is very large and it is hard for us to manage the expectations of every user.
If you have coding skills you should apply and help us to get some of these things taken care of.
Every player has subjective preference for what must be fixed and what attracts or keeps new players, sorting through all of that is a huge task in itself.
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also it seems you like to look for bugs, we do have a testing team that our job is to look for bugs and confirm them, if you like that you are more then willing to try to build a client for your os using the build guide and contact us for further infomation on the process of joining and helping the game in this way.
you can find out some basic info about the team here
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33276 as well as a members list [that i hope is updated correctly]
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also it seems you like to look for bugs, we do have a testing team that our job is to look for bugs and confirm them
Maybe the word "like" is a bit too strong ;)... but I am an experienced developer and an avid gamer, so I like to think that if I do find an issue with something, I can generate valuable and specific bug reports. I followed the link and saw that you had Linux covered and were looking for people on Windoze to do builds and testing. I don't really enjoy doing actual work on Win boxes, and am not prepared to make the time commitment at the moment you were looking for... however, what I'll do is that when I'm done moving early next near and have settled in at least a basic amount, I will find out where things are at and give the testing team a try if I'm still needed.
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Well, I'm afraid that my experience has been... terminal. I tried to re-open the bug report about the OpenAL32.dll issue only to have my request rejected because there are ways around it and it will be fixed in the next release. Fair enough, but when I use bug tracking systems, I keep all reports open until they are resolved.
When a bug is closed that way it probably means the fix was applied in the development branch already.
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In my company the state you described would be RFC (ready for customer) the bug would only be "closed" once the deliverable has shipped with the included fixes. Just a thought...
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Please keep adding reports to the bug tracker, even if sometimes we close them again. We sometimes have bugs that are solved, have a solution, or have an obvious solution that makes it unnecessary to spend time on another temporary fix. Those bugs are sometimes closed without too much of an explanation when we are busy with all the other reports. This does not mean we do not appreciate you adding reports, or blame you for not searching enough (even the test team cannot find all bugs that way), just that we were a bit in a hurry.
So please continue adding reports, but especially until you get a feeling of what will happen with them, do not be upset if they are closed, or get low priority. Many gui problems for example may be known to not be perfect, but there is just not someone available to redesign the whole gui. Or you first point, is a result of the nice feature that username/password combinations are stored for each server, and will load the last used one when you click the server (and clear them if this is the first time).
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We sometimes have bugs that are solved, have a solution, or have an obvious solution that makes it unnecessary to spend time on another temporary fix.
do not be upset if they are closed, or get low priority. Many gui problems for example may be known to not be perfect, but there is just not someone available to redesign the whole gui.
Low priority is a-okay with me. I, as much as anyone could, understand that resources are limited. Also, as a volunteer effort, people will work on what interests them, what they're good at, or what they think needs to be done to make the experience the best for players given the amount of effort they can put into it. Not all issues will be addressed in a timely manner... but it's my philosophy that every issue, no matter how small should be tracked regardless. Sometimes bunches of them can be whacked at the same time if a component has significant change made to it, but until a fix is implemented or the component changes in such a way that the report becomes nonsensical, having the bug report around is a sticky note that someone had an issue with some program behaviour. The second thing that caught me off guard is the implication that if I find an issue in the most currently released version (as a tech-savvy player rather than as part of the testing team using the latest build) and report it, that changes might have been made to the tree already without any record of it being available in the bug tracker for folks like me to be able to say "oh, I guess it's already taken care of" and move on to something else. The DLL thing is a good example, and if the reason given to me as to why it was closed was that it was already fixed for the next release, then I would have been mildly irritated that I'd duplicated effort (this issue on Windows might have been missed if everyone who was installing was an existing player that already had OpenAL installed and therefore wouldn't have noticed it); however, the answer I got is that it wasn't a bug because there was a workaround that was available to someone who searched around a bit. Nowhere did it mention that it was already fixed somewhere, and that's why I requested that it be re-opened.
I am suspecting that given the vast amount of issues that need to be handled, that the development team is just grabbing and running with whatever it can find and getting fixes and features tested and out the door... that there's so much to do that being all "formal" and logging issues in the bug tracker before fixing them would bog the process down way too much right now. If so, then if there was a running Changelog with all changes that were made since the last formal release that got automatically updated on the web when someone checked code in (with their explanation line of what they did), then people could check the BugTracker and the Changelog before logging an issue. Would that be possible to do easily? Also, if someone was planning a big change to something, if they could at least log the big changes in the BugTracker as features, that'd give people an indication that they should ignore those parts of the system until after the changes are made.
Or you first point, is a result of the nice feature that username/password combinations are stored for each server, and will load the last used one when you click the server (and clear them if this is the first time).
Heh, and there's another perfect example... after you've said that, I'd have logged a bug or feature request for a minor change to be made to that code: if it's the first time and there is no username/password for a server that got clicked on, then it wouldn't clear the fields... but that once the values had been registered, clicking on the server name would populate those fields and overwrite what was there before. It's such a small thing, but it's the small things that add up to irritate users over time... and it's something that if it didn't get fixed until just before the game was being targeted for a more widespread release, probably wouldn't bother anyone at all (although some people might whine if it was their pet peeve I guess). If someone had that chunk of code open already, they could just slip a quick fix in along with something else; otherwise, I know there are thousands of things that would be a lot more important than specifically going in to chomp on than something like this.
My point is that I suspect that my involvement at the moment would probably be more of an irritant than a help given what I've said and seen (if you're not all already completely sick of me already...), but that maybe I'd actually be valuable a little further down the road. I suspect that my timing if off for getting involved right now. I can't really dive in deep to the code or testing at the moment because I'm preparing to move and am too busy, but once I know I have some time in a few months, perhaps the time will be right then for the sort of contribution that I could make. I strongly suspect that there'll still be a few things to do then... :).
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If so, then if there was a running Changelog with all changes that were made since the last formal release that got automatically updated on the web when someone checked code in (with their explanation line of what they did), then people could check the BugTracker and the Changelog before logging an issue. Would that be possible to do easily? Also, if someone was planning a big change to something, if they could at least log the big changes in the BugTracker as features, that'd give people an indication that they should ignore those parts of the system until after the changes are made.
yes it's available in two flavours: the classic svn log http://planeshift.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/planeshift/trunk/?view=log and a proper changelog http://planeshift.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/planeshift/trunk/docs/history.txt
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Sigh... I've tried reporting a few of the observations through BugTracker... just to dip my toes in before tackling some of the bigger issues I experienced... Well, I'm afraid that my experience has been... terminal. ... but when I use bug tracking systems, I keep all reports open until they are resolved. Maybe it's just my opinion, but any sort of usability thing like that would normally get high attention so as not to discourage new users from coming on board.
I've been reticent to actually say anything regarding this "issue" of using the bug tracker, but I don't think it's a medium I will use ever again. I did recently submit a bug; one I thought was serious enough to warrant reporting. The bug was closed with the following response:
Begin Copy:
IReason for closing: Duplicate
Additional comments about closing: Hi, and thanks for reporting it :-) Though it is a duplicate of closed bug (bug number removed) (closed bugs don't show in the default search). I would have thought it would be in the latest release by now, but obviously not... I couldn't be bothered to set up a stable server to check that, but I verified that it is fixed in the unreleased map for the next version.
End Copy:
I don't know that I will "bother" to submit any further things I find.
In my company the state you described would be RFC (ready for customer) the bug would only be "closed" once the deliverable has shipped with the included fixes. Just a thought...
I had this business once in California (many years ago) and if I had "closed" any type of action report [BEFORE] it was actually a resolved issue, the customer(s) could have gone to the City to report me and have my business license stripped! That's no joke. They call it fraud. Now I do realize that this is a free game with people working for free on the game and bug testers testing for free, but the "I couldn't be bothered" thing has been the downfall of many a companies in the past. If I did that in my current job, I'd be let go so fast my head wouldn't have time to spin.
Perhaps (as a simple suggestion) the updater should be integrated into the launcher so it would update automatically and then update more often. Call them minor bug patches if you wish who cares, the point is, if you fix things that are client side, then update the clients as soon as the bugs are fixed or patches ready. Call them minor patches?
There are other things I could easily point out, but I've been told (and rather not too politely either) to update my video card before I make suggestions regarding maps and the such so... I wont be making those reports for a very, very long time.
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I don't know that I will "bother" to submit any further things I find.
Sorry but I find that a little disturbing, that you can't be bothered.
I had this business once in California (many years ago) and if I had "closed" any type of action report [BEFORE] it was actually a resolved issue, the customer(s) could have gone to the City to report me and have my business license stripped! That's no joke. They call it fraud. Now I do realize that this is a free game with people working for free on the game and bug testers testing for free, but the "I couldn't be bothered" thing has been the downfall of many a companies in the past. If I did that in my current job, I'd be let go so fast my head wouldn't have time to spin.
I fail to see where you can say the action report wasn't resolved because some one "couldn't be bothered" nor that it wasn't resolved
Perhaps (as a simple suggestion) the updater should be integrated into the launcher so it would update automatically and then update more often. Call them minor bug patches if you wish who cares, the point is, if you fix things that are client side, then update the clients as soon as the bugs are fixed or patches ready. Call them minor patches?
If only it were that easy
There are other things I could easily point out, but I've been told (and rather not too politely either) to update my video card before I make suggestions regarding maps and the such so... I wont be making those reports for a very, very long time.
well I can guess the impolite one who told you that but please dont tar all of us with the same brush
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Unfortunately, I've touched on this before... there is a significant rift between those that are part of the PS team and those that are told they are testers, not players, of PS. They do not speak the same language, they rarely communicate well, and two things happen:
1. Testers get frustrated when their bug reports are not given more consideration, or are closed, while the bug still exists when they log into the game.
2. Devs get tired of having to deal with reports of "it's broke" without details or passionate, detailed responses... that they have heard several times already... and may or not be fixed in a test branch.
I have spent the better part of the last 6 years at my current job being a go-between for operators and programmers. They DO NOT speak the same language by default. The programmers look down on the operators for not knowing how to code, or how things work. The operators get upset with the attitude from the programmers who don't seem to care how it is supposed to work. I have offered before to take reports on the forums and then add a quality report to the tracker... it's what I'm good at...
But this issue is not going to go away without a change somewhere. Both sides are somewhat justified in how they feel, but it doesn't get anyone any closer to making PS better.
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Sorry but I find that a little disturbing, that you can't be bothered.
Mordraugion, forgive me if I don't turn this into a who is right contest, but perhaps you should be more concerned that the other person couldn't be bothered to make sure the issues was resolved. If not, that's cool as it is your own observation? Maybe?
I fail to see where you can say the action report wasn't resolved because some one "couldn't be bothered" nor that it wasn't resolved
Because the issue is still in game and most certainly has not been resloved. If it's been resolved in files on some computer somewhere else, then great, but it's not made it to the public. When something has reached the general public, only then should it be considered resolved. I'm sorry you don't understand that.
If only it were that easy
I understand that, it was merely a suggestion for the future.
well I can guess the impolite one who told you that but please dont tar all of us with the same brush
Funny that I should hear the same intended voice across multiple people. And no, I don't think you can guess who the impolite person is, as there have been multiple impolite people. It's not only one person I've dealt with Mordraugion. I've had the... opportunity to deal with many people all of whom have different personalities... That doesn't diminish the point of this thread or the point of my posts so to get back to the topic... Those were merely my first impressions and observations.
I do deeply respect the Dev team Mordraugion. I... know... what they have to go through and I know that tempers and attitudes can develop as well as good code. I do not paint all of you with the same brush and I fail to see where you get that impression, though I can also understand one's need to protect one's people and thereby jump to conclusions about what another person is saying.
But that too does not detract from this thread. It only furthers the awareness of immediate responses and the need for a better way for people to voice their... opinions and observations.
(I am also very aware now that this particular thread may put me in some hot water with your teams. I'm willing to accept that consequence if some good can come of it. Mythryndel, I'm not a tester, but I do understand what you are saying. Thanks.)
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@Edig... My point was that whenever we, the players, point out issues... we are frequently told that we are testers. Well... not all players are good "testers" or good "bug report writers". There is not really a weed-out or want-to-be process for the player/testers that we are supposed to be.
Ideally, we could all simply be fat dumb and happy players without a care in the world... but given the state of the game, we are not quite that lucky. The way I have offered to bridge the gap is to be a go-between for those that simply want to play and mention that things aren't working and those that are capable of fixing those issues. I have not been taken up on this offer to date.
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Players are not testers. Testers require skill and knowledge with software systems. That does not mean knowing how to play games. At least one dev on the team has disagreed publicly in the past with the "players as testers" paradigm. You can try to make them become testers, they might even want to be testers, but it takes time to train a tester on a piece of software, all related systems, and on providing feedback properly on a piece of software.
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You state my case very well. I agree that players are not likely to be testers and coders. They are just what they are, players. It does not improve the devs view of the players when they have to weed through 10 different reports that all address the same problem in different language, with varying degrees of detail. It does not improve the players view of the devs when they are told that things are fixed, that aren't on the production server yet. I have offered a solution, but we will have to see where it goes.
I may be starting to sound like a broken record, but this is a problem and it needs to be acknowledged and resolved.
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I'm sorry, but I am going to dissassociate myself from those last three comments. I personally do not believe they served any purpose other than to entice negativity.
Such a shame really.
As to:
@Edig... My point was that whenever we, the players, point out issues... we are frequently told that we are testers. Well... not all players are good "testers" or good "bug report writers". There is not really a weed-out or want-to-be process for the player/testers that we are supposed to be.
My issue isn't with the testers or bug fixers. My issue is the manner in which the testers or bug fixers (as well as other devs or whomever) communicate (or rather do not communicate or communicate in a manner not befitting PS) which I believe (in my opinion in other words) goes more to the point of the original post of this thread.
While the majority of the Devs to speak (type) in respectful and adult manners, there are those whose only purpose is to prove they are above someone else or to induce reaction. Others (as the remark in red above) chose a different path of prodding and enticing which I find equally as... sad.
Mythryndel, the second part of your post:
Ideally, we could all simply be fat dumb and happy players without a care in the world... but given the state of the game, we are not quite that lucky. The way I have offered to bridge the gap is to be a go-between for those that simply want to play and mention that things aren't working and those that are capable of fixing those issues. I have not been taken up on this offer to date.
... really was uncalled for and very inappropriate to an adult conversation regarding this issue and the topic of the thread. Surely that could have been reworded to be more... communicative rather than combative?
It can be a hot topic... no need to make it more so. Please?
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Reason for closing: Duplicate
Additional comments about closing: Hi, and thanks for reporting it :-) Though it is a duplicate of closed bug (bug number removed) (closed bugs don't show in the default search). I would have thought it would be in the latest release by now, but obviously not... I couldn't be bothered to set up a stable server to check that, but I verified that it is fixed in the unreleased map for the next version.
I was the one who said that, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I "couldn't be bothered" to check the bug. The bug was verified by myself a while ago, then it was closed as fixed by a developer. That is not really the normal procedure, we verify fixed too, except for when the developer closes it first; art bugs are a little different to the normal code bugs, we aren't able to check them until near release.
To clarify, I wasn't saying I couldn't be bothered checking it was fixed, I did; I was saying I couldn't be bothered verifying you were correct that the bug still existed in the current release, as I tested it myself before, but never tested the 'fix'. The stable server is needed to use the release client, and I don't update and it often unless there is a particular bug that needs testing with the current release for some reason, it was cleaned out at this particular time.
Unfortunate choice of words I guess, I was probably tired and rambling X-/
In my company the state you described would be RFC (ready for customer) the bug would only be "closed" once the deliverable has shipped with the included fixes. Just a thought...
You know what? I agree with you, and have requested that be the procedure before, by adding another status. It was decided against, if I recall correctly; it may have been to do with the fact that this only seems needed on a very small percentage of reports, or to keep the process simple.
I sometimes basically do this, too... if I think duplicates are likely I'll leave them open with the status "postponed" (not correct usage) and check and close after the release; or close the bug the first time; then if there are any duplicates reported afterwards, I leave them open. Probably the reason I didn't do that for this particular report was the precedent set in the previous report, being closed by the developer without testing (and no, it wasn't some unheard of new dev ;) ).
To summarise, sorry, I may have mucked up a bit... as Lanarel said, keep reporting anyway, even if it is closed duplicate. It's not really such a big deal, testers can often find or know of duplicates many times faster than you can search for them, though any effort you make to find them first is appreciated.
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It was not meant to be combative. The devs have their idea of how things are supposed to work. They have stated how they see us, the players. I, and many others, have shown where there are some issues with the processes put in place. I am not saying that I can single-handedly save PS from a crushing doom or anything of the sort. I am just a little tired of reading, and re-reading, comments like yours about how the dev team left something to be desired in their responses. The dev team, when they respond here on the forums are equally less than satisfied with things from their side. My only point about the game was that it is alpha. It is not a polished, finished game like WoW or whatever. It was not meant as a slight against PS. Perhaps it is an interpretation issue with the "fat dumb and happy" remark... that is just to say that we would not run into any bugs, the game would not crash on us, we wouldn't have to try to file bug reports... etc. We would simply sit down, log in, and play until we were ready to log off. That phrase in the South Central USA simply means that we would be very content with the way things are.
/me sits back and starts to daydream about what 1.0 will be like...
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My only point Mythryndel was that stating such a thing in a forum where immaturity, anger and deciet are common is not quite the place to post something about fat slobs. People will take things down a path they needn't go. Being careful of how we speak (or type) [can] make things easier and force us to state what we really indend rather than stumble and insert a limb into our mouths. Not doggin ya dawg, just trying to avoid the rash of "are calling me a fat slob?" remarks...
No game is perfect. If people don't know that, then spend the 19.95 a month for WoW and you'll see all sorts of major issues that have yet to be resolved. The same holds true for other games... Many of them are beginning to fail miserably because they do not hold their people to higher ideals. They allow their people to berate and belittle the players. They also have a tendency to favoritism which in the higher eschelon can be very dangerous especially if you have someone overbearing or God-forbid abusive.
Having said that... The point here is that impression and observation can make or break something. Everyone, INCLUDING ME, need to stop and think about how their response is going to be taken by someone else BEFORE making a statement which might later be regretted.
My observations could be completely wrong. I admit that. (At least I am willing to meet halfway here...) But since as you point out it is a recurring theme, then perhaps it truly is something which should be investigated.
Vornne,
Please know I hold no malice towards you. I would have kept your name secret to my end days. Perhaps I should not have used the bug report response as an example. I apologize if I've gotten you into any trouble with your leaders. I do appreciate your efforts. Honestly I do. I've been accused of taking something the wrong way before so perhaps this was just the same thing.
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The Settings Department only closes bugs after they are fixed and ingame, as far as I know. I would not close a bug report on a book typo just because I fixed it in an offline copy. Why it would be any different for other things, I don't have a clue. Things would be best if there were three levels to bugs: Open, Fixed in SVN, Closed. Would save a lot of headaches.
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Speaking as a fat slob, here is my perspective. When you first start out reporting bugs the developers figure you are one of the majority of well meaning reporters with a particular axe to grind. You have come across some part of the game system that you think is obviously broken and your report is piteous plaint from the heart. Once it has been dealt with you will never be heard from again. Please understand I am not saying this in condemnation of the development team as a large number of reports really are like this. I do not mean this to be a condemnation of the reporters either as often this form the report takes on is a result of lack of knowledge in proper reporting procedure and even of what needs to be reported. It does get better for both sides with a little persistence.
So your report has been closed for whatever reason, duplicate, fixed, not a bug, etc. That does not have to be the end of it.
If your bug was marked as a duplicate and it only seems to you that it is slightly related to the bug of which it is listed as duplicate, by all means state your case in that bug. Try to keep to hard facts and reason, an emotional plea is not usually helpful.
If it has been closed as fixed and it does not yet appear to be fixed in the main server, be patient. As has been mentioned previously in this thread many fixes are only applied with a new release and releases are not a dime a dozen. If it is a fix that can be done seamlessly it wil get done before a release, You will often be told which it is, I have seen fixed, pending restart more than once.If your bug is one of these then test it when the restart has happened, sometimes the fix has unintended consequences that need to be reported.
If it has been closed as not a bug and you do not agree then perhaps you have not made yourself understood. You can still comment on closed bugs and provide further evidence that it really is a bug. Do not expect it to be reopened but it can happen if you make your point. If some time goes along, months at least, and it is still bugging you you can request to have it reopened, not everything that happens to you happens to others and it can take a while for someone else to be able to confirm it. Case in point I reported a bug on the old tracker became this one (http://hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=320) and eventually got fixed. I believe I first reported it in .17 or something and it was closed because nobody else could detect it. I reported it again in .18 and .19 and I believe it finally got fixed in .4 It was a peculiar map bug and only affected a few systems.
The way to gain the respect of the development team is to learn from what you are told, keep plugging away and improving your reporting skills. It does not hurt to browse the posted bugs either, it helps to see what kind of reports are successful as well as to makeyou think about different aspects of the game. Some bugs are settings related and some can use a fresh perspective.
Use the email report function and try to give more information when requested, If it is asked for and you never go back to see nothing will get done.
Use the search function to try to discover if your bug has already been reported, if you are in doubt whether it is a bug at all you can go on irc to the #planeshift-build channel and inquire as to whether it is known or not. Be polite while you are then and do not fret if nobody replies, many people have irc clients logged in from a persistent connection so that they seem to be present but they may not be monitoring the connection and if they are looking in from time to time they may well be too busy to reply. Irc is worth trying but do not expect too much from it especially before you have a proven track record as a reporter. That reminds me try to be consistent in your nicknames.
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@Edig... point taken. I deal with locals, face to face, 90% of the time... and an expression like that is harmless. Although I recall one of our programmers from the great north-west being told he had "the social skills of a pet rock". That is probably the nicest thing I have heard from the guy who said it, but the programmer was so distressed he went and whined to our company president about it. You just never can predict what people are going to react to... :(
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Now that is an important thing to remember. Many of the children in this game (and many of the adults) do not deal with people face to face anymore and so they don't know how to deal with people in real world situations.
That's also (imho) why there is so much difficulty with communication. It's far too easy today to dismiss someone across the screen because I (or someone else, just using example here, nothing else is intended) don't have to care about how you react to something I say because you are not even real to me.
As a first impression coming to this game, if I was faced with that, and I was, I'd leave (and I did.) When I came back years later it had changed somewhat only because many of the people changed out, but it still exists... then add to that the powermongering. Not a good mix. Then throw in the people who sit back and watch out loud and you've got an explosive situation that isn't good for anyone.
In any case... this thread is about first impressions and observations. the original poster had his own intent which was obscured by all of us. Perhaps I should have left well enough alone, perhaps not. Perhaps my zealousness for justice has gotten in the way again, or perhaps I can see how it's all interconnected to what the original poster intended. The point is one's observation and impression of a given thing will always differ from someone else's, but first impressions can make or break.
Thanks for the healthy discussion Mythryndel. Very cool! (no I'm not being sarcastic. I really do enjoy healthy discussions.)
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@Edig
I dont feel the need to requote everything so I'll just answer each point in order
I guess we just see the example you gave differently. I didnt see someone who couldnt be bothered but someone who took the time to give a reasonable explanation of why the report was closed, which in itself is a lot more than a bald "Fixed in svn" comment some give.
We also seem to see "resolved" in a different light, if a bug is fixed in svn then it is fixed, whether or not it is in the current release it cant be fixed anymore, client-side updates are getting more frequent but if a fix requires a server update then it'll have to wait till a major update is scheduled and even then it is still fixed and cant be fixed any more than it is.
\o/ we agree
I've been around ps for nearly 4 years and I can honestly say I can only think of a couple of people who would react like that and only one in recent times (discounting Xil ;) ), so forgive me if I drew the wrong conclusion. My tar impression comes from you not wanting to file any reports for "a very, very long time" that to me implies you expect the same reaction from every member of the team.
As for Hot water with the Teams, I don't think so, certainly not in my case, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I enjoy the chance to debate and make you see the right one, mine. ;)
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again you either dont see, understand or chose not to see my point.
Never mind. Not worth it anymore.
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again you either dont see, understand or chose not to see my point.
Never mind. Not worth it anymore.
I can say exactly the same of you, and if thats your attitude to a difference of opinion, then I feel sorry for you.
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again you either dont see, understand or chose not to see my point.
Never mind. Not worth it anymore.
I can say exactly the same of you, and if thats your attitude to a difference of opinion, then I feel sorry for you.
And there is the typical childish response we've all come to know and love. [Now] you get my point. It's not about examples, it about attitudes. It's not about who is right or wrong, it's about the childish responses. My response to you was an indication of something much more more going on and you chose a lesser road of demeaning someone. Very typical response.
I don't feel sorry for you Mordraugion. I at least respect you enough not to call you names or 'feel sorry for you'. Maybe you should ask questions before jumping to conclusions. Maybe sit back and [think] before reacting.
Or keep alienating people.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving. I won't be... returning.
[How stupid of me... you are UK...]
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Mordraugion you are stating what your understanding of the process is quite clearly. The point everyone else is trying to make is that no matter how many times you say it is "fixed", If we go in-game and see that it is not "fixed" we wonder what is going on. Every new player is not going to understand the difference between "fixed" (in-game) and if someone actually meant "fixed" (in svn). You then have this whole long discussion and have to have explain the whole process to whoever is getting frustrated. It seems seems such a waste of effort compared to a extra flag in flyspray. When it is so long between release cycles though, you are going to rack up duplicate bugs as more and more people see the same things that are broken, and see that your tickets claim they are fixed.
I could change what you said to give you the perspective of a player submitting their first bug. If a bug exists on the main server, it is broken, and not fixed. You can say it is fixed, but I can still see it is broken no matter how many times you claim it is fixed. To most users/players perception is 9/10 of reality. I SEE it is broken, i'm TOLD it is fixed, but I still SEE that it is broken... and they draw any number of conclusions from that ranging from PS is just broken beyond repair if their programmers can't see that it is broken to your process is just confusing and I'm never reporting another bug.
This is not meant to call you out or whatever. This is simply to try to give you the perspective of someone on the other side of the fence.
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Mythryndel... I think that's been beat to death. I like the flag idea or 'fixed in svn' mark instead of closed. People also seem to forget that closed bugs don't show up in searches so if something is closed, no one ever knows through the search (which imo is another good reason for the additional flag.)
What irks me though beyond that, [and] still in keeping with the topic of this thread, is that when a person encounters someone who is condescending of others or short, or belligerent, or even abusive it leaves a lasting impression that doesn't easily go away. When someone is childish or leaves childish remarks or remarks like "i'm going to sit back and watch the fun", they are seeking to be combative which also serves no purpose.
On one side we have the "eager clackers" who want to help improve the game and do all they can to enjoy things, then when they first step into the waters of "writing" something up, are faced with "dancing ulbernauts" or other persons with bad tempers who shouldn't be a part of customer relations to begin with.
So... to help promote the health of this topic, I'm going to step back (as well as from... other duties) for a bit. I've seen too much "crud" fly in both directions and it's obvious to me that the strong remain strong because of how they are able to put people down, and the down are down because they haven't the sense to know they've just been trampled on.
Too often people use abuse as a disguise for "healthy management". Personally, I find it disgusting, but I know I have to deal with it in an adult and compassionate manner. Otherwise... strife and confusion and anger will rule the day.
Take care Mythryndel.
[and it's a good thing I saved that post from Mathy as an html before someone deleted it.]
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I do understand your point of view believe me Mythryndel and you're right its not the first time I've had to explain why something is fixed in svn but not in game yet, except most people accept the explanation and continue with adding reports and playing the game.
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Personally I think it is a bit childish to keep belaboring your impressions when you have been told quite authoritatively by someone in a position to know how it goes. If you want things to change you have to become part of the team and convince them from within. Like it or not if you are not on the team you do not get a vote, you can get a hearing but not a vote. It has always been that way for as long as I have been around. I haven't really noticed any of those negative comments that you are talking about.
I spent a good deal of time crafting that post about successful interaction with the development team that everyone ignored. Kind of sounds like you just want to complain and do not really care if you contribute.
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Vornne,
Please know I hold no malice towards you. I would have kept your name secret to my end days. Perhaps I should not have used the bug report response as an example. I apologize if I've gotten you into any trouble with your leaders. I do appreciate your efforts. Honestly I do. I've been accused of taking something the wrong way before so perhaps this was just the same thing.
Hehe, I don't care if everyone knows it was me, I like to keep things out in the open as much as possible... and you didn't and wouldn't have gotten me into trouble either, I didn't take it as malice at all. I just felt on looking back that I was probably a bit hasty, and gave the wrong impression, I wanted to clear it up a bit.
Similar to what Mythryndel said earlier, I see part of my job as acting as a buffer between users and developers... the players are close to the game, and the developers are close to the code / art, each having invested a lot of time into them, this can cloud their judgement and make them defensive; I try to approach it from a more detached standpoint and work out a way for both to be (at least partially) satisfied; I think I can say that I see both sides of most issues, having been a player for a few years and written a bit of code, but not really part of either group at the moment.
For example, when there is new feature added or a change to a feature that removes side effects that were liked, the tracker often gets a lot of new and duplicated reports, with varying quality; the tester would try weed out parts that are not very helpful to the dev or approaching to flamebait, close duplicates, add any extra information required, then notify the devs in the way that seems most likely to get a good result. If they were being perfect that day :D
The communication problem is ongoing, and I think will always be here; I generally try not to take things too personally, just act as a channel between the ones that do; and I'm not implying that is necessarily wrong, just a side effect of being closely involved. The key word is try... and when I remember to.
As for the fixed in release / svn thing, I'll try get a bit more discussion about that going, with the rest of the team.
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If you want things to change you have to become part of the team and convince them from within. Like it or not if you are not on the team you do not get a vote, you can get a hearing but not a vote.
Indeed.
But in this specific case, it seems to me that the suggestion is about improving the flow of information between the team and the players. Joining the team surely improves that flow, eh eh. However, that logic may encounter an exception here.
The thing is, there probably wouldn't be such heat if this was in the Wishes section. Is there enough material here for a feature request? There's a section in the bugtracker to improve the bugtracker, and the bugtracker directly feeds on players, so it would make sense to have a Status that they also can refer to. If there's any chance for it to be considered, I'd submit the request for a Task Status such as "ready for delivery", to keep it close to the existing conventions.
If it makes the bugtracker easier, it certainly is beneficial for everybody.
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I suspect that it is already being considered but that as yet not enough devs think it is a priority or that the few people who have the power to do it do not have the authority. Join the team, alter the balance of power :sorcerer:
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we have the following bug reports related to this
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=681
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=810
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1396
The testing team will continue to consider our options, but at this time i dont see anything here changing as it would be a lot of work for us to keep up with. If there is futher updates on this i expect the team will make it known to the players. For now discussing this outside the team will not get you that far as we need to determine how the process will work and how well before we go forward with such MAJOR changes. We are aware of the situation and will work on ways to work around this, a few have been suggested internally but as you can see nothing has been done due to issues with the amount of work that we would have to do.
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I have not read the whole thread as it is not much fun to do so :).
As Vornne and Caarrie already mentioned, in the test team we did discuss possible solutions to the problem of bugs being fixed in svn, but being hard to find when closed and sometimes taking long to get into game. The main reason not to keep those bugs open, was that it would mean adding another status to the already long list, for a problem that did not seem too big.
Lately, a lot of bugs have been fixed. Many have been moved to the server on Laanx, but many could not and have to wait for a full release. The same applies for fixes to the client. As this includes some bugs that annoy many players, this meant a lot of duplicates (that are sometimes closed with a short reply, since there are so many :) ). We will look into some solutions again, and see what we can do.
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The Settings Department only closes bugs after they are fixed and ingame, as far as I know. I would not close a bug report on a book typo just because I fixed it in an offline copy. Why it would be any different for other things, I don't have a clue. Things would be best if there were three levels to bugs: Open, Fixed in SVN, Closed. Would save a lot of headaches.
To clarify, settings bugs are closed when they are fixed - regardless if the fix is "in-game" at that point or not, a closing note is usually included if the fix is not live (often fixed, pending reboot or something similar depending on the situation). If you do notice a bug for settings that is marked as closed but seems to still be an issue you can put in a request for the bug to be reopened and state your reasoning there. We will gladly take another look at the situation to see what might be keeping the fix from making it in game or if there is another issue that is deeper than the initially reported bug.
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I've read this thread with some interest. It's like a soap opera mixed with deja vu. I swear I've seen this all before.
Really. And from both sides, no less. I have some spare time while a few NPCs await me to run errands, but I'm usually tardy while slaying Ulbernauts these days... so they can wait.
So let me start off that the majority of points from developers and users are right. We could stop right there. \\o// I won't, because it doesn't actually solve anything.
I'm fairly new, but I've been reading the boards and playing the game for enough time to get a feel for things. I'm going to make some basic assumptions in this. These are:
- Everyone wants things to work better.
- Everyone wants to be respected and treated with something at least resembling respect - which would include their own efforts.
- Everyone likes ice cream. This is not important and is completely off topic, but is meant to be tickle your humerus. If you are lactose intolerant, there's always soy ice cream.
So anyway - bug reports. I've submitted a few bugs so far, and it's become fairly clear to me - and perhaps other people - that the definition of a 'bug' varies between users and developers on this project, as with any other project. To make matters worse, almost every bug tracker out there sucks for these sorts of projects where end users are expected to add bug reports to the developer bug tracker. And every project seems to repeat this same mistake because the approach is almost always reactive.
This does NOT mean that the PlaneShift team did something wrong. What it means is that despite profound advances in technology of communication, we humans still suck at it.
It IS frustrating for developers to simply clear the bug without it being seen inworld. What makes it worse is that on this particular project it seems there are a disproportionate amount of software developers as users who, as is usual, think that things should be done differently... and more like the way that they're used to doing things. The development team carries a similar bias... it wouldn't be a development team if it did not.
The trouble with closing a bug that a user reports, especially when it still exists, is that the user expects it to be fixed. This is the reason users fill out bug reports. Most sane people gain no joy from finding bugs. Most of the time they are annoyances, sometimes showstoppers, but they almost always decrease the user's experience of the project. Yes, some stuff isn't a 'bug' in that it can be fixed in software. But it is a bug - yes it IS a bug - if it's a documentation bug. If it is an unresolved bug for the user, then... it's still a bug to the user.
And users are told to report bugs.
So maybe *closing* bugs decreases the stack to be worked on by developers, but the perception of the stack outside of the development team is pretty important. If a bug is fixed on the development server and not the production server, it's my experience that the bug report remain open until the release with a comment by a developer that "it is fixed and upcoming in the next release." - and the workaround with the bug tracker is system dependent: a separate flag or what have you so that the *developers* know that it's fixed and don't have to stare at it as they Tarzan through the jungle of bug vines. Or Spiderman through the city of Bug Buildings. You get the idea.
So maybe fixing the bugtracker, or use of the bugtracker, so that it allows users to know a problem is being fixed in the next release while letting them know that they aren't losing their minds is a pretty good idea. I don't know how to implement it with the particular system being used, but hey... there's always a way to get things to work. Obviously pointing fingers is lots of fun, but I'm a firm advocate of just fixing the problem and beating the snot out of someone who really deserves it. Like the person who stole my dog yesterday. Not someone who closed a bug report because they think it's fixed but it isn't fixed for *me*.
Users and developers are probably the worst two groups of people to share a space at the same time. Developers, like the ones I have worked with, tend to be flippant and absorbed by what they are doing - I've been guilty of it, and probably always will be, but *acknowledging* that issue really helps. Holding back the flip one liners and PEBKAC references really goes a long way because users don't want to feel like idiots. They want to be treated as if they matter. Some say that this is the strength of the open source community, but it's only the strength of successful projects. Open Source just gives a better shot of success by allowing better communication if the people involved bother to try.
My experience here is not something I will whine about. I know how to press the right buttons, I know how to make my points and I'm not afraid of being wrong because I can admit when I am. Even so, I've had bug reports closed with some rather poor explanations for me... so maybe I *shouldn't* be using the bug tracker. Maybe only the developers should be. Maybe the forums are a good place to report bugs and search for them, and the team can scrape the sense from redundancy. Or maybe some better explanations are in order for the users if the users are expected to use the bug tracker.
One person on the team suggested the use of inworld petitions... something I did once, then elevated to a bug report once everyone looked at the problem. That's a good way to sift things out, maybe. I don't know. I'm not a part of the team. I'm just a blue naked kran picking up apples for hungry NPCs. ;D
And the forums... you know, if people realized that someone who never met them before in their lives were to judge them by some of the things written and the way that others read what they write, it could get better. I won't call names or point fingers, but sometimes a one line flippant response is more damaging than biting one's tongue. And locking a thread after that compounds the mistake... I used to moderate boards myself and I look at how some of the conversations seem to come down from 'on high' from the team with subsequent locking of threads... and I think... 'do they really see how that looks? They obviously care about what they do, but...'
In closing - I suggest a better approach for handling bugs that acknowledges the difference in perception between developers and users. I suggest instead of fling urea further than the other urea flinger that one try to fling the point such that the other person can catch it.
And I think everyone should go eat some ice cream. Chunky Monkey, really. Love that stuff.
L8r.
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please keep in mind that there is an official testing team that their sole job is to be a link between bug reporters and the devs. We are the ones that close most bugs and verify that they are bugs IN THE CURRENT code. and yes we are human we do make mistakes, if you think a bug that was closed is a bug you can request it to be reviewed and reopened if needed. remember we have a procedure for reporting and fixing bugs for a reason to make it easier on the players and the devs. If you have suggestions about the process contact anyone from the testing team and we will be more then willing to try to explain things or to foward suggestions to the team so they can be considered. Also the process of reporting/closing/reviewing bugs has been gone over in other threads on the forum as well as the links on the tracker itself. Remember as well the testing team is not made up of devs, we are just normal people that have some skills in building apps that can test the bugs on latest code, we also do try to test all bugs before closing them unless they are known duplicates or we know they are already fixed in the latest code.
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I will make my one-liners less flippant for you.
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I will make my one-liners less flippant for you.
Don't do it for me. Do it for yourself. People who are unfamiliar with you may take a read of you that may not be true. Or maybe it is. Either way, does it actually help?
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We are very thankful for the feedback so far.
Information has been exchanged to aid the original poster and subsequent posters.
We hope you enjoy planeshift, and have a great day.