My first impressions and observations

[Mordraugion]

@Edig
I dont feel the need to requote everything so I'll just answer each point in order

I guess we just see the example you gave differently. I didnt see someone who couldnt be bothered but someone who took the time to give a reasonable explanation of why the report was closed, which in itself is a lot more than a bald "Fixed in svn" comment some give.


We also seem to see "resolved" in a different light, if a bug is fixed in svn then it is fixed, whether or not it is in the current release it cant be fixed anymore, client-side updates are getting more frequent but if a fix requires a server update then it'll have to wait till a major update is scheduled and even then it is still fixed and cant be fixed any more than it is.


\o/ we agree


I've been around ps for nearly 4 years and I can honestly say I can only think of a couple of people who would react like that and only one in recent times (discounting Xil ), so forgive me if I drew the wrong conclusion. My tar impression comes from you not wanting to file any reports for "a very, very long time" that to me implies you expect the same reaction from every member of the team.


As for Hot water with the Teams, I don't think so, certainly not in my case, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I enjoy the chance to debate and make you see the right one, mine. 

[Edig]

again you either dont see, understand or chose not to see my point.

Never mind.  Not worth it anymore.

[Mordraugion]

again you either dont see, understand or chose not to see my point.
Never mind.  Not worth it anymore.

I can say exactly the same of you, and if thats your attitude to a difference of opinion, then I feel sorry for you.

[Edig]

again you either dont see, understand or chose not to see my point.
Never mind.  Not worth it anymore.

I can say exactly the same of you, and if thats your attitude to a difference of opinion, then I feel sorry for you.

And there is the typical childish response we've all come to know and love.  [Now] you get my point.  It's not about examples, it about attitudes.  It's not about who is right or wrong, it's about the childish responses.  My response to you was an indication of something much more more going on and you chose a lesser road of demeaning someone.  Very typical response.

I don't feel sorry for you Mordraugion.  I at least respect you enough not to call you names or 'feel sorry for you'.  Maybe you should ask questions before jumping to conclusions.  Maybe sit back and [think] before reacting.

Or keep alienating people.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving.  I won't be...  returning.
[How stupid of me...  you are UK...]

[Mythryndel]

Mordraugion you are stating what your understanding of the process is quite clearly. The point everyone else is trying to make is that no matter how many times you say it is "fixed", If we go in-game and see that it is not "fixed" we wonder what is going on. Every new player is not going to understand the difference between "fixed" (in-game) and if someone actually meant "fixed" (in svn). You then have this whole long discussion and have to have explain the whole process to whoever is getting frustrated. It seems seems such a waste of effort compared to a extra flag in flyspray. When it is so long between release cycles though, you are going to rack up duplicate bugs as more and more people see the same things that are broken, and see that your tickets claim they are fixed.

I could change what you said to give you the perspective of a player submitting their first bug. If a bug exists on the main server, it is broken, and not fixed. You can say it is fixed, but I can still see it is broken no matter how many times you claim it is fixed. To most users/players perception is 9/10 of reality. I SEE it is broken, i'm TOLD it is fixed, but I still SEE that it is broken... and they draw any number of conclusions from that ranging from PS is just broken beyond repair if their programmers can't see that it is broken to your process is just confusing and I'm never reporting another bug.

This is not meant to call you out or whatever. This is simply to try to give you the perspective of someone on the other side of the fence.

[Edig]

Mythryndel...  I think that's been beat to death.  I like the flag idea or 'fixed in svn' mark instead of closed.  People also seem to forget that closed bugs don't show up in searches so if something is closed, no one ever knows through the search (which imo is another good reason for the additional flag.)

What irks me though beyond that, [and] still in keeping with the topic of this thread, is that when a person encounters someone who is condescending of others or short, or belligerent, or even abusive it leaves a lasting impression that doesn't easily go away.  When someone is childish or leaves childish remarks or remarks like "i'm going to sit back and watch the fun", they are seeking to be combative which also serves no purpose.

On one side we have the "eager clackers" who want to help improve the game and do all they can to enjoy things, then when they first step into the waters of "writing" something up, are faced with "dancing ulbernauts" or other persons with bad tempers who shouldn't be a part of customer relations to begin with.

So...  to help promote the health of this topic, I'm going to step back (as well as from...  other duties) for a bit.  I've seen too much "crud" fly in both directions and it's obvious to me that the strong remain strong because of how they are able to put people down, and the down are down because they haven't the sense to know they've just been trampled on.

Too often people use abuse as a disguise for "healthy management".  Personally, I find it disgusting, but I know I have to deal with it in an adult and compassionate manner.  Otherwise...  strife and confusion and anger will rule the day.

Take care Mythryndel. 

[and it's a good thing I saved that post from Mathy as an html before someone deleted it.]

[Mordraugion]

I do understand your point of view believe me Mythryndel and you're right its not the first time I've had to explain why something is fixed in svn but not in game yet, except most people accept the explanation and continue with adding reports and playing the game.

[Prolix]

Personally I think it is a bit childish to keep belaboring your impressions when you have been told quite authoritatively by someone in a position to know how it goes. If you want things to change you have to become part of the team and convince them from within. Like it or not if you are not on the team you do not get a vote, you can get a hearing but not a vote. It has always been that way for as long as I have been around. I haven't really noticed any of those negative comments that you are talking about.

I spent a good deal of time crafting that post about successful interaction with the development team that everyone ignored. Kind of sounds like you just want to complain and do not really care if you contribute.

[Vornne]

Vornne,

Please know I hold no malice towards you.  I would have kept your name secret to my end days.  Perhaps I should not have used the bug report response as an example.  I apologize if I've gotten you into any trouble with your leaders.  I do appreciate your efforts.  Honestly I do.  I've been accused of taking something the wrong way before so perhaps this was just the same thing.

Hehe, I don't care if everyone knows it was me, I like to keep things out in the open as much as possible... and you didn't and wouldn't have gotten me into trouble either, I didn't take it as malice at all. I just felt on looking back that I was probably a bit hasty, and gave the wrong impression, I wanted to clear it up a bit.

Similar to what Mythryndel said earlier, I see part of my job as acting as a buffer between users and developers... the players are close to the game, and the developers are close to the code / art, each having invested a lot of time into them, this can cloud their judgement and make them defensive; I try to approach it from a more detached standpoint and work out a way for both to be (at least partially) satisfied; I think I can say that I see both sides of most issues, having been a player for a few years and written a bit of code, but not really part of either group at the moment.

For example, when there is new feature added or a change to a feature that removes side effects that were liked, the tracker often gets a lot of new and duplicated reports, with varying quality; the tester would try weed out parts that are not very helpful to the dev or approaching to flamebait, close duplicates, add any extra information required, then notify the devs in the way that seems most likely to get a good result. If they were being perfect that day

The communication problem is ongoing, and I think will always be here; I generally try not to take things too personally, just act as a channel between the ones that do; and I'm not implying that is necessarily wrong, just a side effect of being closely involved. The key word is try... and when I remember to.

As for the fixed in release / svn thing, I'll try get a bit more discussion about that going, with the rest of the team.

[khoridor]

If you want things to change you have to become part of the team and convince them from within. Like it or not if you are not on the team you do not get a vote, you can get a hearing but not a vote.

Indeed.
But in this specific case, it seems to me that the suggestion is about improving the flow of information between the team and the players. Joining the team surely improves that flow, eh eh. However, that logic may encounter an exception here.

The thing is, there probably wouldn't be such heat if this was in the Wishes section. Is there enough material here for a feature request? There's a section in the bugtracker to improve the bugtracker, and the bugtracker directly feeds on players, so it would make sense to have a Status that they also can refer to. If there's any chance for it to be considered, I'd submit the request for a Task Status such as "ready for delivery", to keep it close to the existing conventions.
If it makes the bugtracker easier, it certainly is beneficial for everybody.

[Prolix]

I suspect that it is already being considered but that as yet not enough devs think it is a priority or that the few people who have the power to do it do not have the authority. Join the team, alter the balance of power 

[Caarrie]

we have the following bug reports related to this
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=681
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=810
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1396

The testing team will continue to consider our options, but at this time i dont see anything here changing as it would be a lot of work for us to keep up with. If there is futher updates on this i expect the team will make it known to the players. For now discussing this outside the team will not get you that far as we need to determine how the process will work and how well before we go forward with such MAJOR changes. We are aware of the situation and will work on ways to work around this, a few have been suggested internally but as you can see nothing has been done due to issues with the amount of work that we would have to do.

[Lanarel]

I have not read the whole thread as it is not much fun to do so .

As Vornne and Caarrie already mentioned, in the test team we did discuss possible solutions to the problem of bugs being fixed in svn, but being hard to find when closed and sometimes taking long to get into game. The main reason not to keep those bugs open, was that it would mean adding another status to the already long list, for a problem that did not seem too big.
Lately, a lot of bugs have been fixed. Many have been moved to the server on Laanx, but many could not and have to wait for a full release. The same applies for fixes to the client. As this includes some bugs that annoy many players, this meant a lot of duplicates (that are sometimes closed with a short reply, since there are so many ). We will look into some solutions again, and see what we can do.

[Rizin]

The Settings Department only closes bugs after they are fixed and ingame, as far as I know. I would not close a bug report on a book typo just because I fixed it in an offline copy. Why it would be any different for other things, I don't have a clue. Things would be best if there were three levels to bugs: Open, Fixed in SVN, Closed. Would save a lot of headaches.

To clarify, settings bugs are closed when they are fixed - regardless if the fix is "in-game" at that point or not, a closing note is usually included if the fix is not live (often fixed, pending reboot or something similar depending on the situation). If you do notice a bug for settings that is marked as closed but seems to still be an issue you can put in a request for the bug to be reopened and state your reasoning there. We will gladly take another look at the situation to see what might be keeping the fix from making it in game or if there is another issue that is deeper than the initially reported bug.

[Zontick]

I've read this thread with some interest. It's like a soap opera mixed with deja vu. I swear I've seen this all before.

Really. And from both sides, no less. I have some spare time while a few NPCs await me to run errands, but I'm usually tardy while slaying Ulbernauts these days... so they can wait.

So let me start off that the majority of points from developers and users are right. We could stop right there.  I won't, because it doesn't actually solve anything.

I'm fairly new, but I've been reading the boards and playing the game for enough time to get a feel for things. I'm going to make some basic assumptions in this. These are:

• Everyone wants things to work better.
• Everyone wants to be respected and treated with something at least resembling respect - which would include their own efforts.
• Everyone likes ice cream. This is not important and is completely off topic, but is meant to be tickle your humerus. If you are lactose intolerant, there's always soy ice cream.

So anyway - bug reports. I've submitted a few bugs so far, and it's become fairly clear to me - and perhaps other people - that the definition of a 'bug' varies between users and developers on this project, as with any other project. To make matters worse, almost every bug tracker out there sucks for these sorts of projects where end users are expected to add bug reports to the developer bug tracker. And every project seems to repeat this same mistake because the approach is almost always reactive.

This does NOT mean that the PlaneShift team did something wrong. What it means is that despite profound advances in technology of communication, we humans still suck at it.

It IS frustrating for developers to simply clear the bug without it being seen inworld. What makes it worse is that on this particular project it seems there are a disproportionate amount of software developers as users who, as is usual, think that things should be done differently... and more like the way that they're used to doing things. The development team carries a similar bias... it wouldn't be a development team if it did not.

The trouble with closing a bug that a user reports, especially when it still exists, is that the user expects it to be fixed. This is the reason users fill out bug reports. Most sane people gain no joy from finding bugs. Most of the time they are annoyances, sometimes showstoppers, but they almost always decrease the user's experience of the project. Yes, some stuff isn't a 'bug' in that it can be fixed in software. But it is a bug - yes it IS a bug - if it's a documentation bug. If it is an unresolved bug for the user, then... it's still a bug to the user.

And users are told to report bugs.

So maybe *closing* bugs decreases the stack to be worked on by developers, but the perception of the stack outside of the development team is pretty important. If a bug is fixed on the development server and not the production server, it's my experience that the bug report remain open until the release with a comment by a developer that "it is fixed and upcoming in the next release." - and the workaround with the bug tracker is system dependent: a separate flag or what have you so that the *developers* know that it's fixed and don't have to stare at it as they Tarzan through the jungle of bug vines. Or Spiderman through the city of Bug Buildings. You get the idea.

So maybe fixing the bugtracker, or use of the bugtracker, so that it allows users to know a problem is being fixed in the next release while letting them know that they aren't losing their minds is a pretty good idea. I don't know how to implement it with the particular system being used, but hey... there's always a way to get things to work. Obviously pointing fingers is lots of fun, but I'm a firm advocate of just fixing the problem and beating the snot out of someone who really deserves it. Like the person who stole my dog yesterday. Not someone who closed a bug report because they think it's fixed but it isn't fixed for *me*.

Users and developers are probably the worst two groups of people to share a space at the same time. Developers, like the ones I have worked with, tend to be flippant and absorbed by what they are doing - I've been guilty of it, and probably always will be, but *acknowledging* that issue really helps. Holding back the flip one liners and PEBKAC references really goes a long way because users don't want to feel like idiots. They want to be treated as if they matter. Some say that this is the strength of the open source community, but it's only the strength of successful projects. Open Source just gives a better shot of success by allowing better communication if the people involved bother to try.

My experience here is not something I will whine about. I know how to press the right buttons, I know how to make my points and I'm not afraid of being wrong because I can admit when I am. Even so, I've had bug reports closed with some rather poor explanations for me... so maybe I *shouldn't* be using the bug tracker. Maybe only the developers should be. Maybe the forums are a good place to report bugs and search for them, and the team can scrape the sense from redundancy. Or maybe some better explanations are in order for the users if the users are expected to use the bug tracker.

One person on the team suggested the use of inworld petitions... something I did once, then elevated to a bug report once everyone looked at the problem. That's a good way to sift things out, maybe. I don't know. I'm not a part of the team. I'm just a blue naked kran picking up apples for hungry NPCs. 

And the forums... you know, if people realized that someone who never met them before in their lives were to judge them by some of the things written and the way that others read what they write, it could get better. I won't call names or point fingers, but sometimes a one line flippant response is more damaging than biting one's tongue. And locking a thread after that compounds the mistake... I used to moderate boards myself and I look at how some of the conversations seem to come down from 'on high' from the team with subsequent locking of threads... and I think... 'do they really see how that looks? They obviously care about what they do, but...'

In closing - I suggest a better approach for handling bugs that acknowledges the difference in perception between developers and users. I suggest instead of fling urea further than the other urea flinger that one try to fling the point such that the other person can catch it.

And I think everyone should go eat some ice cream. Chunky Monkey, really. Love that stuff.

L8r.