PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Shaman on December 06, 2008, 09:00:33 pm
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Does anyone still roleplay this 'rivalry', or is it just a guild rivalry now? Hammerwielders and Stonebreakers are NOT brothers. I guarantee that when the Hammerwielders get their own skin/mesh/art (whatever you want to call it) and stop sharing the Stonebreaker one, the guilds paying absolutely no attention to Hammerwielder/Stonebreaker differences will fall, since you'll no longer be able to do the endlessly long lines of dwarves wearing the same armor and weapons.
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Sure they are not brodders. They are not rasta either.
But even without using gangsta chat, we usually say hello before we read the character description. At least they are all dwarves.
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I'm pretty sure that "dovoy brodr" is the Stonebreaker tongue, anyway (correct me if I'm wrong). That would mean that people playing as Hammerwielders are also using their rival clan's language to call their...rival clan, or even their own clan, their brother. I think the dwarf RP has really been mislead; I have yet to see someone even acknowledge the clan rivalry.
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While you know I am pretty much agreeing with you on that, Shaman, and I like your ingame approach there, I do suppose this cant be fixed without having proper models.
I remember well the time when dermorian women had the ynnwn model. Those days people tended to play them as tall ladies - now with the model fixed they more or less at once are played like cute lovely ladies (or at least not as tall ones! lol). Same for the nolthrir women.
As for an offtopic remark: Looking forward for when diaboli men wont be much taller than dermorians anymore lol ;)
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Who says there is a rivalry between stone breakers and hammer wielders? Afaik there is no such thing as racism in hydlaa and as far as i know there is also no rivalry between the two dwarven tribes.
And what speakes against an parade of dwarves wearing the same armor and items? Leather armor stays leather armor, even if worn by a hammer wielder or a stone breaker. Is there someone yealous for our cute parades? ;D
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You're right, there is no racism in Hydlaa. Hammerwielders and Stonebreakers are both the dwarf race, though. This is a clan, aka family rivalry, though. And maybe rivalry is the wrong word, but to put it simply: they don't like each other that much to call each other "brothers".
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It is broders, and as far as i know they have no issues with each other.
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Stonebreakers:
They have a strong pride that sometimes develops into feuds with other clans or other races. They tend to be suspicious and quarrelsome towards other races that are taller than they are.
Note also that Stonebreakers are the shorter of the two clans. Because Stonebreakers have this "pride", they certainly wouldn't call their Hammerwielder "brethren" "brodrs"...and no, every dwarf I've seen has used "brodr" as opposed to "broder", but broder does make more sense to me anyway.
Hammerwielders would also take pride in their fighting prowess, and perhaps belittle the Stonebreakers because of both their short stature and, from the website, "rough as a dwarf" refers to Hammerwielders, instead of the other clans, which would give them a strong ego.
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broder was a typo. it is in fact brodr.
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Of course there is a bit of friendly rivalry between stonebreakers and hammerwielders. Stonebreakers tend to be the better miners and crafters. while hammerwielders are the better fighters, so each clan takes pride in trying to outperform the other clan in their field of excellence. But in the end, they always will have a beer together, and call eachother brodr, because that's what they are: brodrs!
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No they aren't. If you're from family A, and I'm from family B, then I won't walk up to you and call you my brother, because you're from a different family. What you just said is the current state of affairs, not what's specified in settings.
Also, Hammerwielders are the better crafters and fighters. Stonebreakers just mine.
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I Dont think any of the guilds in game claim to be Hammerwielder or stonebreaker only , just "Dwarven" guilds. So i dont think once they each get their own skin that your "guarantee" of failer will come true.
I think the term Brodr will still be used, as they are still dwarven race just diffrent clan. I only see a friendly rivalry between the two and dont think it would come to any break up of guilds.
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What's the point of a dwarven guild, though? I can maybe understand if you go under the mentality that you "need each other", where the Stonebreakers mine the ores, the Hammerwielders fashion them into weapons, and then they're distributed to the other Hammerwielders for combat...but that isn't the case, is it? It's more like stereotypes are completely ignored, and no matter which clan you are you don't roleplay any sort of difference, "friendly" rivalry, or anything...I'm failing to see anyone go around as a "proud Stonebreaker" or a "proud Hammerwielder"...just a "proud dwarf", which makes the different clans absolutely pointless.
Also, there are two different kinds of elves: Dermorians and Nolthrirs. You don't see them going around calling each other brothers or anything though, do you? They don't have any sort of rivalry because they aren't an egotistical race (proud, filled with pride, etc.), yet the dwarves are, meaning they would constantly have fights over which one is better.
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Don't forget there isn't any dwarven town so far. New spawn points will also play their part in this issue.
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How much rivalry does it take to turn an incentive into hate, by losing the respect? - Don't Stone{b|B}reakers wield hammers too?
Most dwarven-char players will possibly agree to some rivalry, but in a "sportive" way. It reminds me on some laws regarding advertising (e.g. that you may call yourself "better", but may not call your opponent "worse", especially not namely).
I'd like to read the opinion of the Settings team here... but I expect this to take a bit time to decide well, this is surely a sensitive topic. I don't expect that a member of one clan would reject a handshake or an offered beer from a member of the other. But if the Settings team declares just that, we would have to adjust our roleplaying probably...
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P.S.: Don't miss to look differently at the past, the presence, and the future. "Dwarvesbane vs. Dwarven Star" is a young chapter in the books of history of Yliakum.
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Well, obviously we StoneBreakers are much more skilled than the HammerWeilders, ;D but well, some have to support the guild, so we couldn't leave "The Way of The Hammer" just in hands of the HammerWielders... May be we should ask for the name to be changed to "The Way of The Hammers and Picks"? ;D. And I have great friends among the HammerWielders, they already have enough with being so clumsy diggers compared to us; in the end we are all brodrs, and united, much more stronger...
[ ooc: IMHO, the differences between both races, if they really would be rivals -what I don't think too much- wouldn't be very different from those among different regions of a country, for example... ]
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People seem to be making a false dichotomy out of it. It isn't terrible blatant racism vs. blissful companionship.
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I agree with Parallo. At any rate, by its very definition, racism is impossible - the parties involved are clans or families, rather than separate races. This is more of clan rivalry, not necessarily open war or discrimination, perhaps more in the way of a competitive aspect.
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If both of those two dwarvish races were almost the same, why not having only one dwarven race at all? Appears to me almost like having the choice of races "horned ynnwn" and "hornless ynnwn".
Why caring about it at all? Because of the limitations to come?
I would prefer to have one dwarf race replaced by some obviously different one instead, like something troll-like or some such.
Two dwarven "races", both the same except for each preference of job, maybe hair color and slight differences in height - looks unnecessary to me.
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Why different dwarven "races"/clans? ... To have another topic to roleplay about. ;) ;)
Or in other words: Ask Talad and the Settings. Whoever originally founded the set of races.
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Why different dwarven "races"/clans? ... To have another topic to roleplay about. ;) ;)
Or in other words: Ask Talad and the Settings. Whoever originally founded the set of races.
Well, here's the thread, and they watch the forums. They just need to give their input.
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There is no known 'rivalry' of the sort you speak. And there never has been. The dwarves are two clans of probably the same race (with slight evolutionary changes, such as underwent the nolthrir due to the Azure Sun's effect on them). Thus why they are called 'Clans'. They stem from the same race. As for not calling each other IRL 'brother' or 'sister' outside of family, that's not true, many people consider all humans to be 'brothers' and 'sisters' inside or outside of race. I'd say the difference between a Stonebreaker and a Hammerwielder is like that of a white man and a black man. Both a white man and a black man are humans, correct? However, they have slightly different inherent body structures, and generally different areas of ability. However, they are both humans, and I know a lot of white guys that get called brother every day by black guys, and vice versa, all friendly and that good stuff. And not only black/white people, I was merely using that as an example. If you start flaming me for it, shame on you :P
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Our definition of "race" in real life is different from Planeshift's. White men and black men are considered two different "races", but two different kinds of dwarves are (or should be) considered as two different families, while a dwarf and a human are considered two different races. So, that argument is defeated. I'd say wait for settings, now. This is purely an opinionated thread that can only be resolved by something official.
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No.... the Dwarves stem from the same race, they are the same with slight physical differences, and slight cultural differences.
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No.... the Dwarves stem from the same race, they are the same with slight physical differences, and slight cultural differences.
Did I say they were a different race? No.
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Well i may have misunderstood, but in that case, your argument does nothing to support your case and in fact doesn't defeat mine... The dwarves are the same 'species' aka, the same difference as between a black man and a white man. I will suggest you read my earlier example once more.
Edit: Furthermore, as I said earlier, there is no indication of any rivalry of any sort within the settings, though by their psychological natures they would seem to have maybe a sporting rivalry, friendly rivalry [sibling rivalry ;-)], but as for them disliking each other, totally wrong. I would expect that dwarves would stand side by side as both are 'shorter'. Calling each other 'brother' would suggest a sense of brotherhood between them due to their many similar traits.
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The smaller the stakes the more vicious the battles over them and there are fewer stakes smaller than dwarven stakes.....
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You will get your input in the game when it is ready. For now, that information may not be completely set in stone. Right now, there are no major feuds or conflicts between Hammers and Stones. There are pride related issues and competition , of course, just as there are in any two disparate cultures. In 'today's' culture, you can think of them a bit like sports rivalries in the way they would act towards one another. They get along great with one another until they start talking about their teams, and who is better. Then you might end up with the occasional barroom brawl (no weapons and without the intent of killing the other guy).
In extreme examples of what the cultures lean towards, I like to say Hammers are closer to Klingons (pride in individual strength and a love of battle), and Stones are closer to Hippies (pride in community and a love of hard work and progress). In both cases, there is a strong pride in just being a Dwarf.
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You will get your input in the game when it is ready. For now, that information may not be completely set in stone. Right now, there are no major feuds or conflicts between Hammers and Stones. There are pride related issues and competition , of course, just as there are in any two disparate cultures. In 'today's' culture, you can think of them a bit like sports rivalries in the way they would act towards one another. They get along great with one another until they start talking about their teams, and who is better. Then you might end up with the occasional barroom brawl (no weapons and without the intent of killing the other guy).
In extreme examples of what the cultures lean towards, I like to say Hammers are closer to Klingons (pride in individual strength and a love of battle), and Stones are closer to Hippies (pride in community and a love of hard work and progress). In both cases, there is a strong pride in just being a Dwarf.
Hippies love hard work and progress? I find that hippies tend to be more conservative than progressive... they don't like the direction that science has taken us, and they gravitate towards folk remedies and shamanistic healing rather than modern medicine. They aren't traditionalist though, unless it's their own traditions (buying into the group etc), so in that sense they're progressive. Once you get into secular humanistic trends though, you have to throw pride out the window.
What's a klingon?
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Stonebreakers just mine.
I interpret settings different then you.
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What's a klingon?
Somewhere a Trekkie has a heartache...
Personally, I think settings and descriptions of races should be as general as possible, especially for a game with a changing population. Just because you are a Stonebreaker doesn't mean you have to be stubborn, only good at mining, untrusting of anyone taller than you, etc. I also don't agree with concrete limits to a race as well, there are always some that can stand out from the crowd. You can't roleplay a dwarf that is 3 meters tall, but you should be able to accomplish whatever you work at, whether it is magic, painting, archery, climbing, etc. Trying to stereotype fictional characters, just seems like a losing battle.
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What's a klingon?
Somewhere a Trekkie has a heartache...
Personally, I think settings and descriptions of races should be as general as possible, especially for a game with a changing population. Just because you are a Stonebreaker doesn't mean you have to be stubborn, only good at mining, untrusting of anyone taller than you, etc. I also don't agree with concrete limits to a race as well, there are always some that can stand out from the crowd. You can't roleplay a dwarf that is 3 meters tall, but you should be able to accomplish whatever you work at, whether it is magic, painting, archery, climbing, etc. Trying to stereotype fictional characters, just seems like a losing battle.
I full-heartedly agree. I always try to stick to these stereotypes, but I find it a bit hard to do, as well as boring.
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Stand out from the crowd? That's about the only thing we might be a little bit envious of you taller people.
Apart from that, we've got all the advantages: we're closer to the ores, in combat we can launch a frontal attack on the kneecaps while ducking all counterattacks... need I say more?
As for the supposed rivalry between Hammers and Stones - that's internal, a friendly family fued if you want (but not even that), no problem at all. Please don't make a problem where there isn't one.
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If you mean by rivalry that we should go about our day killing each other simply out of our own blind selfish pride over our differences, we may have to go about attacking everyone for just the same reason. I doubt very much you'll see that. That stubborn pride that you mention only means we prefer to keep to ourselves or our kin for the most part. That, by all means doesn't limit or restrict us from being an active part of the community'
If you wish to see the Dwarven rivalry at it's best, watch the marketplace and auctions closely. I often find myself being out-bid or undersold by the very Dwarves whose company I enjoy. Then, again I do the same. Now, haggling with these guys trying to get the best part of sale has been one of the funnest aspects of this game. This is not limited to Hammerwielder vs Stonebreaker however. Just a friendly rivalry between each other and is seldom anymore offensive then an arm wrestling match. You beat me once doesn't mean you'll beat me twice.
The two races are different, but as you said neither are from the areas presently in game. So one would tend to mingle with others of similar traits or skills. Being both of the Dwavern race in general and having a common interest in the ore, metal, and crafting trades. I think in reality you would find them working together out of common goals, and interests with each other more then other races. The rivalry you suggest is of some separated, unschooled, secluded sect that had been brought up in generations of hatred for some long ago forgotten offense.
The term "Brodr," Broder," or "brother," are all shorts, slang for "brotherhood." Under the meaning of those who share a common bond. This does not imply by any means that we are family.
I don't use the term "Brodr," but I do use "Brother" as a greeting or a title of respect to other dwarves regardless of their race. I for one see no offense or difference to that vs "Mi-lady, Lady, Miss, Sir, Mister, Master, Lord," or any other title used to greet or address someone with a form of respect. Only that I limit it's use to the Dwarven races, my guild, and two other characters who arrived in Hydlaa near the same time as I and we grew together through our infancy. [who are not dwarves by the way]
You did make a point that once the graphics are added to Hammerweilder's characters we would see a change in how many characters are played. Of this you may be right. But, keep in mind that many of us have already bonded our friendship of each other. So it may not be as big of a deal as you propose. There will be some offspring guilds that will form up exclusively for either Stonebreaker's or Hammerwielder's. Making room for the type of rivalry that you have mentioned. But, through it all I think you will find that the Dwarven guilds that exists will weather that storm well.
That, all being said if you wish to play out the rivalry that you wish to see, that is entirely up to you. As an individual dwarf that is at your discretion. I would advise as an elder Stonebreaker. "Dat, yah be aware o' where yah be scratchin' yah line. B'cause, yah may just find yahself bein' held ta it's confine's."
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What about the girls?
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*Jaycol watches what he calls the girls he hates to get clouted
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I wish Dwarven women were a more popular character to play, but they are scarce. Xillix posted the registrations of the races by gender on page 3:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33915.30
I think I know of less than a handful these days. I'd think they are pretty strong, supportive and protective. They'd be able to whoop up on any Male Dermorian, but then again who can't... pah, ha, just kidding. I'd imagine they'd fight along side any of their husbands or brothers, and get their hands dirty building, creating, managing, and digging just like the men. Not sure of any friendly, dwarven nickname, but Sister has been used. And usually if they bring you beer, if they bring 5, 3 for her, 2 for you. If they just got a better mesh than those diaper butt pants and could maybe sit, maybe they'd be a little more popular to play. :D
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Yes, that is a shame. I think I have met or seen maybe a dozen or so. There were more females in the other versions then there are now. I would like to see more.
"Dat would add a lot more zest ta da kettle." Jaycol chuckles.
I think it would make it better for the Dwarfen community as a whole. That for sure would cause a ruckus of rivalry.
Jaycol dreams of sturdy lass that could step into a brawl, so he could finish his beer.
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In extreme examples of what the cultures lean towards, I like to say Hammers are closer to Klingons (pride in individual strength and a love of battle), and Stones are closer to Hippies (pride in community and a love of hard work and progress). In both cases, there is a strong pride in just being a Dwarf.
Just came across this and I thought it might be of interest to point out that this Apollonian and Dionysian dichotomy is present throughout much of our literature and folklore, in the PS world and outside of it. Talad vs. Laanx, then Elves vs. Dwarves, Hammerweilders vs. Stonebreakers, Ylians vs. Enkis, etc. Whats more, it would be perfectly valid to throw out the whole alignment idea, take a wholly morally nihilistic view and judge your character on a spectrum based on this. It would not only be perfectly valid but might add more to the depth of your character.