PlaneShift
Support => Server Status => Topic started by: Pizik on January 20, 2009, 08:17:20 pm
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....was made easier, would you prefer it? Being able to max everything in a couple of weeks for example.
If yes, would it not mean that everyone was, rather quickly, equally leet and defeat the object of you levelling up in the first place?
If no, should levelling take even longer than it does now?
If niether, is the system perfect as it is?
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I think, though I don't know much about the upper echelons of the skills, it should be much easier. Like in Morrowind one should be able to advance through just playing the game rather than having to go through the highly ludicrous act of grinding.
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Well, I think that if you make leveling faster the people will just get bored faster, too, especially if not into roleplaying.
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I'm gonna have to say that things need to be tweaked to be a little easier. It seems to be almost an exponential leap to advance in skills. Skills start off about right... probably even for the first 10 levels... but after 10 levels it is so expensive or so time consuming that it ceases to be of any benefit to the casual player. I was training sword making on Laanx... I was able to watch a 1.5 hour movie while training level 14 in sword making... that was for 1 level... 13 -> 14... using the least time consuming method available to advance. This is excessive, and if you were actually making weapons to sell while training... you would require a huge investment to train because nobody wants to buy low-grade weapons on laanx... but you also have to have raw materials... etc. Magic is much the same way... lots of time and money to train beyond level 10 or so... with only minimal effect on skill or ability. To be honest... and I know this would require a lot of work on the dev's part... but I would like a system to where you could either "grind" or perform a duty/quest for the trainer to earn the next level. For example, you want to make swords... you gain your first 10 levels and want to go for level 11... buy your training... but instead of just grinding, you might be offered a quest to make 10 swords (that you would get some compensation for, and MUST be crafted by you), and that would count as your "practice". This is just a rough concept though... so don't nitpick my example too much please.
Stats seem fine as is... but wouldn't mind being able to do activities to boost stats instead of just paying a trainer. That is a bit off-topic though.
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keep in mind that the current lvling system was made with some skills having a max around 10, 20-30 and 120 depending on the skill the equation for exp per lvl has not changed since the increase in max. It might be nice to make it "easier" to lvl up to max, but what impact will that have on people actually staying around and testing and playing the game after the reach the max lvl?
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I kind of agree with Myth however I would suggest that the way to go would be to make the tasks gained at a particular level give more practice. For example At level 0-5 metallurgy you can smelt some base metals and it appears that you only get practice for actually casting them into ingots/stock. At level 5 you get the ability to make steel, this ought to get you twice as much practice as the level one abilities. At level ten you get a new ability and it should get you three times the amount of practice as the base abilities. This could be modified for lower skill abilities so that casting superior grade or exceptional or whatever gains extra practice so that someone who wants to be a weaponsmith can still gain effective metallurgy practice in the course of his work. If I am not mistaken, the quality of your product is dependent on your level anyway.
To me it is all about getting rewarded for doing useful things rather than useless things. What is useful is relative to level.
You might see a broader range of characters if you made it easier for the role players to mold their creation to their will. the powerlevellers will reach max and get bored and start over or leave, the roleplayers will achieve their character and play with him finding other things to do within the community.
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I am certainly not asking for max stats in a week across the board... but I do not see the problem with tweaking things to the point that a reasonably dedicated player (read: plays about 5 - 10 hours a week) could max 1-2 skills in a month. 10 dedicated hours of training a skill may be a good target. There are tons of skills to train... and even if you were bankrolled by someone else... you could still not max everything in under a year. The real benefit here isn't that people can max... but that people get a reasonable amount of benefit from training in a reasonable amount of time. If I want to make Q200 swords, I could do so in a reasonable amount of time. My sword making skill on laanx... I have spent more than 10 hours of dedicated training... and cannot tell a difference (maybe 10 points average) in quality between the first blades I made and the ones I make now. I have made less than 5k trias from the weapons I have made because nobody will buy them. It is not worth my time/effort to continue training this skill further... :(
This, in my opinion, would also negate the appeal of bots... if things weren't so incredibly time consuming...
I also agree with prolix about how it should work... higher skill required items... give higher levels of practice points. If someone wants to make tin ingots forever... it will take forever to train high levels... but someone that smelts gold ingots would advance much quicker. However, in-game now... the mining skill does not do this. I have seen a fairly regular progression for number of ore required to level... lots and lots of tally marks... but I did one level as all coal... one level with mixes of tin/coal/gold/plat/etc... and the levels required the same steady progression of ores. I have also not noticed a difference if I train meta with gold/silver/steel... same number of ore smelted/cast for each level with steady increase based on level. I am fairly certain most skills are like this right now, but I could be wrong.
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I'd like to see this for purposes of just seeing how the numbers played out. I say make it extremely easy to level. Then wipe the database to default skills and stats each month. Wipe the quests to. This would speed up testing, changes could be implemented and observed in a shorter timeframe before finalizing them.
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If the server was being reset every month I would not bother with the quests, some of them just take too long. Possibly on a three month schedule they would be more viable. Then again if the quest goes into the tree-like dialogue structure as I saw intimated elsewhere that would go a long way to making them easier. Right now I have plenty of time later on maybe not.
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This is the wrong forum for this discussion ; this should be in the general discussion forum for PlaneShift.
....was made easier, would you prefer it? Being able to max everything in a couple of weeks for example.
Even before that, the leveling system needs to be redone to make sense. The Progression Point system is horrible. You can't level without training, and you can get better at music by killing rats.
Leveling should be easier and more limited. Maxing out should be easier, but the max must also be redefined. New measures of power must be introduced.
If yes, would it not mean that everyone was, rather quickly, equally leet and defeat the object of you levelling up in the first place?
It would depend on how you did it. If you did it the wrong way, I can see that happening. However, you're begging the question - what is the "object" of leveling? Do you level because you want to be better than everyone else? Or do you level because it's what your character would do?
If no, should levelling take even longer than it does now?
Is that even possible?
If niether, is the system perfect as it is?
Is that a joke?
I'd like to see this for purposes of just seeing how the numbers played out. I say make it extremely easy to level. Then wipe the database to default skills and stats each month. Wipe the quests to. This would speed up testing, changes could be implemented and observed in a shorter timeframe before finalizing them.
This is a good suggestion. I think you should max out everyone's stats on the test server for a week and see what happens.
Well, I think that if you make leveling faster the people will just get bored faster, too, especially if not into roleplaying.
People get bored of grinding long before they max out.
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The idea of maxing is alien to me, and I think that learning should become exponential after you reach a certain "master" level. I'd see:
- Getting your first levels in a skill quick and cheap.
- Progressing your "professional" levels in a faster way than currently, or at least a more entertaining way. Maybe 40 hours of game play would do to become a master in a skill. Choices between questing and grinding are definitely welcome.
- Once a master, that is, when you can do all that can be done with the skill (craft/smelt anything for example), you can still progress, but additional levels are longer and longer to reach; that allows competition to keep going between masters, and is shown for example in the quality of their production.
Balancing the progression speed is of course only part of the issue. That's always the problem with balance.
- Money is a major concern for many players. Training is indeed way too expensive. Several NPCs are billions of trias rich already.
- Learning skills should often increase your way of life, not cost you. The cost of products should be exponential, not the cost of training. With a good balance, all crafted products should find a buyer, and average products at average prices should be the most common ones.
- There shouldn't be so much randomness in quality. There should never be maxed quality objects either. On the other hand, a crafter should have more control on the quality of his production, simply by choosing the amount of time he spends on an object. A master crafting a masterpiece would take a long time to do so, and possibly a long time to sell it. For a living, he would still make good products at a more reasonable price, and do so much faster.
- Quality of a product should also depend on the quality of the resources. No q200 steel from q50 iron.
- As said by people above, there are more levels than level benefits. Reducing quality randomness would also improve that.
As a side note, I also think that estimation of a Quality should depend on a skill level. Currently, a cook can recognise a q50 steel lingot from a q200 one. I've always said that I'd be happy to see the quality numbers not appear at all. Yet, skilled people could see them to a degree. Maybe with an /estimate command.
I've focused on crafting skills here, to follow the track of the previous posts. One question I would ask is why skills don't have the same numbers of levels? 20 here, 60 there, 150 there. Have these numbers been raised/adapted because of the actual speed progression? Because it was easier to raise a cap than to tweak formulas or lower XP rewards? Obviously, it's not easy to treat crafting skills and combat skills in a same way; and there are other types of skills as well.
You may need a discussion on each category of skills.
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I must admit I did not read all the replies. Read enough to know a lot of "lets wipe every month" as well as lets make it so can advance faster.
Um, I started over on EZPCUSA, and that is fine. I think having to have a lil life experence to start training is fine. I also think having to have a "day job" to pay for training that MAY pay off later is also fine. (killing rats to be able to get training in music)
the only aspect that seems out of balance is repair armor. You can make a perfect sword with about 10,000 hours or real life time practice (it should be rare to make prefect swords....) but you can not repair Plate Mail torso unless you have at least that much practice time? To repair it? Not even perfect repair.. just repair it at all.
Now, if you want to get picky, you could integrate the blacksmith skill into repair armor formula, so that for every 5 lvls of BS you get 3 appearent (not shown in stats) lvl bonus for repairing chain, and 2 for plate. I think this tweak would enable people to repair platemail armor with a more reasonabloe amount of training. If you can make a perfect AXE or Sword, and have also spent 1000 hours working on repairing armor, I find it hard to believe that you can not still repair Platemail armor at all. (1000 hours IRL = 6000 hours ingame. Most training programs have you become a journeyman with 2000-4000 hours. A journeyman Armor repairperson with decent Blacksmithing skills SHOULD be able to reapir platemail, even if they lose a point of Q with each repair.
other than that, I think it is pretty fair and balanced.
Make it easier so the lazy can level up to max faster? I played Bamko for a whole year on fragnetics server, and while he maxed Light armor, and almost maxed swordfighting, he still had room to grow. if you make it easy to level, might as well, just make everyone maxed from day one and forget any kind of reward for playing (training).
Oh, and if you want to wipe yourself, just start a new character. Geez, they just started a new server, so you are at same level as everyone else. Go train and enjoy. I sure hope these whining threats of wipes on EZPCusa do not take hold. I will ask around. If you guys are gong to wipe, I will stop training. heck, why even play at all if y ou are going to threaten a wipe every time someone else trains harder than you? I came to ezpcusa to get away from this. I can tell you right now, I wont stick around here to help out if the threats continue.
Realize this. Those of us who have the discipline to train hour after hour resent those who want to rob us of our efforts. I look forward to thing s being tried on ezpcusa, things that may not stay, things that may not work, and things that some devs want to try out but can not get on main server without "proving" that it can work.
I am not here to be screwed with. I did thousands of hours on training on fragnetics and left because of this "make my character better by stealing time and effort from others" talk.
I am listening and waiting..
about a week into the server and talking abotu a wipe? freaking stupid.
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Levelling needs to be fun instead of grinding. Your character should learn through interaction with other players, the environment and practice, this not only encourages interaction but is also fun. Plus all roleplayers would end up training because they like to interact with others. Plus those that prefer grinding instead of roleplay would have fun through levelling and roleplay.
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I'd like to see this for purposes of just seeing how the numbers played out. I say make it extremely easy to level. Then wipe the database to default skills and stats each month. Wipe the quests to. This would speed up testing, changes could be implemented and observed in a shorter timeframe before finalizing them.
Are you crazy?! This would slow down testing to a crawl. Getting Winch access alone (the government way) requires you to do about two days of solid questing and this on the premise, that you have a fairly leveled character, who does not have to rest twice per map.
Leveling as it is currently is fairly ok, except for magic, which just takes ridiculous amounts of time to aquire money, PP and training. Reducing the cost here by lets say 25% would really be appreciated.
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Donari, how would you implement leveling through roleplay? Do you have any practical idea?
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This is discussion of the EZPCusa server.. you know, the NON_RP server?
You can RP here all y ou like, but stop punishing me for playing the game as a freaking game. Want to RP and punish those who want to also play the mechanics? Please go to the RP server and leave us alone. I level because it IS FUN. You donto want to have the satisfaction of getting better by hours and hours of hard work? go sit in the tavern and tell stories. heck, go write a novel and make a lot of real world money if you are that good at it. But to punish us because many of you are too lazy to put in the hours playing a great game? Good way to end up with a lot of people who sit around chatting and not testing the mechanics.
I swear... Talad said the EZPCusa server was not going to be RP required. Why do you guys hate those of us who also like to play the mechanics so much. I do not complain that you sit around drinking beer and doing all the talky talky talky, why do you need to punish us who actually like to work and improve ourselves.....
It is so fair here... You could become a better fighter than I, no genetic predisposition, no handicaps, no slower or faster reflexes that can not be trained. The only factor is whether you want to play the game mechanics, or whether you just want to spend your time crying that you shouldnt have to do what everyone else had to do.
Want to make a new game? one that meets your specific desires? Great! Good Luck! Go to it. And lets see if anyone wants to play it.
But please stop trying to ruining the game so many have worked so hard to create. You say "levelling needs to be fun instead of grinding" ok, so if not fun, why do some people do it? Maybe the defeiceny is not in the effort, but your unwillingness to exert that effort. (I need a browser with spellcheck.. sorry, but not willing to copy this into word, spell check, and copy back... hehehe)
I admit that perhaps repair armor is a lil out of balance. he difference is I recognize that is MY opinion. If I had such strong feeling as you about this issue, I would work harder on creating my own realm. Check out one of my sites, glompzilla.com. enough there to keep you busy a few hours, send you to some good sites.. and maybe help you figure out how to make your own game... currently you need to put in thousands and thousands of manhours (person hours?) to make even a simple game, and you need coding skills. I do nto see why that has to be the case.. I poorly made game should be able to be tossed together in a weekend... of course will anyone play it?
In any event, I hope the RP elite realize they won, you have the main server where all of us PLayers (a nod to the accusation of being PowerLevelers) who spent tens of thouesands of hours leveling gave up and walked away from our characters to get away from you, having to start over here.
If RP does not need levels, why didnt all the RP-eliters volunteer to go to the new server and let the PLayers stay with their levels on the gragnetics server?
and now you want to come here and continue the battle? You won. take your fragnetics server and good day.
I said GOOD DAY! ;D
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Very tough question. And multi-layered as I see it.
First: Ask the “average” player - At what skill and attribute levels would the player be happy with their character? Not maxed out, not considering themselves among the elite, not even considering themselves masters of their chosen craft. Just the feeling of “OK, now this is something I can work with”.
Second: Ask the game designers - How many hours of grinding (not playing - and yes I know that for some, these are one in the same) do they feel is fair for a player to feel “happy” with their character.
Third: Then with these two pieces of info in mind, get into the real messy work of figuring how to divide these hours into the amount of skill progression wanted.
As far as I can see, we currently only have 3 general “character classes”
Warriors, Mages and Crafters.
Why not poll the players and ask what class they play and what would make them “happy” with their character?
Maybe Warriors would be – 150 in each of the physical attributes plus weapon and armor levels high enough to take on an Ulber. PvPers just want to be “a little better” than the guy they are fighting, so I don’t know what metric would be good for them.
Maybe Crafters would be – metallurgy, blacksmithing and weapon smithing levels high enough to craft a Q200 weapon (seeing as I gave up grinding weapon smithing along time ago, I’m assuming Q300 is still the top)
Mages? – no clue here.
And those Jack-of-all-Trades/I wanna be good at everything people should realize that this will take a very long time.
Who knows what would make the average player content? But I think it is very important info to have. Once a player spends that fair amount of grinding to be “happy”, then really crank up the learning curve and let the hard core grinders really work to become among the elite.
Just my 2 tria.
BTW – Just to start the poll.
My main character would fall into the general Warrior class and 150 in each of the physical attributes plus weapon and armor levels high enough to take on an Ulber was where I became “happy” and then started branching out into other skill areas.
Edit: I would am kind of curious about what the Devs think is a "fair" number of hours of grinding (not trying to start a fight, just curious)
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Hahaha, Bamko... that was good. The point is that this is a testing server, and that the goal is a finished and balanced game. The game is neither finished nor balanced, so there is some discussion as to if decreasing the time spent levelling will increase the efficiency of testing and development. That is all. The problem here is that a game that is nowhere near finished is being treated like a finished game. This has been the situation on Laanx for a long time and it hinders development. No, nobody is going to go for a wipe every month. But if the characters were wiped (not the characters themselves mind you, just their numbers) on some kind of a regular basis we could work the numbers in the game better and hopefully get some balance into the system. Now, as far as that goes, re-creating characters is about the same.
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Bamko, this server is non-rp only to test features for the rp server. They will be the same game but the ultimate end is a perfect rp game. If you can't accept that maybe you should play another game rather than demanding that the direction of this one should be the same as every other one.
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First off, I am not the ones making demands. Note OOmi said "The PlaneShift team is proud to announce the advent of a second server! We've been listening to what players have had to say on the forums and in IRC and thought it would be great fun to offer a place to let off some steam and just go... grind for a bit. You know, fill your pack to the brim with ulber furs, dig until your pick breaks; that sort of thing! " at http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34586.0 . And my expressing my frustration that YOU who are not even Devs saying "we could work the numbers in the game better " .. um.. WE?
besides, I make a salient point. Unlike you, I recognize, as I believe many Devs do, that if you make the game pointless and not fun, you lose your testers. read the posts on the purpose of the ezpcusa server for crying out loud. also I should caution you that some do not like when you impersonate Devs. You fellow testers talk with Authority like you own the game. Frankly, from all the official discussions I have seen, I am more nearly correct than you. So debate among yourselves what you are going to do with a game you do not control, I am going to listen to Xillix, Xordan, and OOmi, and a few others. I really do not see why you must fight the mechanics on BOTH servers. how will they ever test the effect of having multiple people maxing out on several skills, and any bugs that may be there if you do not let anyone achieve them? and how will you.. oh wait.. It is NOT you making those decisions.
And to any Devs or other leaders who may read this, feel free to contact me via PM to update me on any plans to make the ezpcusa server to be for RP only and to be the forum site for the RP vs PLaying (another nod to the accusation that enjoying the mechanics is power-leveling, which is BS) battle.
As far as I am concerned, this debate is resolved. my views are stated, and frankly I think this is a feeble attempt by the whining lazy wannabes (who are too lazy to actually volunteer to be devs OR to play the game using the mechanics the Devs have developed) to ruin the experiment of having ezpcusa being a seperate test server to let players play. Of course I could be wrong, it might be a trick to get PLayers to Play, only to be wiped every other month and messed with.
And Verden and others, do not mistake my passion and strength of conviction for sensitivity. Leave it to you thought police to characterize those who disagree with you as being "too sensitive". pardon me? I enjoy a good debate. Please do not worry your pretty little head with my "sensitivity". Trust me. Those who know me call me a lot, but thinking my "panties" are knoted, or that I am "too senstive" heh, good one. I guess when you have no authority or logical comeback, you need to try ad hominem attacks. Please try to leave the fact that I care enough about this project to state my opinions out of it, whether you have the right to demand everyone agrees with you.
If I sat here and said nothing, I am concerned the Devs might think no one cares, and let you ruin the game further. This non-rp server is a nice testing area, and I look forward to testing it.
One note, Those who have real authority, please can we have like a red title like "Official Dev" next to your name, so we can more easily tell the trolls from the official PS communication? Too many are posing as Devs, and when they have a thousand posts, and no one puts them in their place, I start thinking their opinion actually is the party line.
If it was easier for me to tell the trolls from those in charge, I could /ignore a lot easier ::|
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The new server is a test server... sure. That DOES NOT mean that it is ONLY for testing. Laanx is a test server too. The game is not finished. This server has a relaxed atmosphere so we don't have to put up with your elitist BS on a daily basis. Go away and leave us be. Stop telling us that this is a RP game and that we are going to have to RP sometime anyway and whatever other arguments you keep spouting here. If the DEVS want to make a statement as to the nature of this server, then let them speak... but PLAYERS can just STFU already. Players have no authority to dictate how the game is played, when things are wiped, what activities are supposed to happen where... just drop it already. Go back to the tavern and drown yourself in the bottom of your tankard and leave the rest of us be.
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/me tosses Bamko -pitbull guardian of the ezpcusa server- a milkbone
Now before the next posters decide it will be fun to tear into Bamko, please read my inane ramblings 5 posts above and make the majority of your post on topic
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:offtopic: if you look at my name under it is a title Game Master then my forum post rank, Developers and Testers and Moderators all have this so it is easy to see who is Official and who isn't
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Hahaha, Bamko... that was good. The point is that this is a testing server,
Bamko, this server is non-rp only to test features for the rp server.
You are both wrong and it is beyond me, how someone who calls him/her/kraself a roleplayer can be such an expert at completely missunderstand what has been said by the PS team about the new server.
The purpose of EZPCUSA is to finally end that ongoing quarreling between PLers and RPers, even Xillix is tired of and which serves no purpose besides wasting everybody's time. From a marketing persepective, the RPers are a liability anyway (or does anyone think, the ultimate RPer argument, we hear ever so often, "maybe this is not the right game for you" is actually going to attract more players?). You guys finally got what you asked for: A server, where RP is enforced and that even without being the ones, having to move. Why did the PLers have to move? Simple: They moan and complain less when given chores (among other things). This is also the reason, why EZPCUSA has been called "more of a testserver" by Oomi. Devs can put in new stuff more easily here without having to take mad talk about how feature X will kill roleplay. PLers can be assumed to embrace new mechanics way more easily.
Having said that: No, EZ is not a "lesser" server, that only servers as refinery for the "real" server. It is not an exile and certainly not a punishment for people, who haven't seen "the light, yet". So please stop the nonsense already. This server/board serves the purpose of getting things done, not more gloryfying, of what is already overrated.
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I am tired of seeing something like:
... the whining lazy wannabes ...
In every one of your messages.
I don't know who you talk to, who you call a troll; probably everybody but you; but it's extremely annoying.
Furthermore, you do not answer the topical question. All you do is force us into that minorities war again. One page about you; the topic is not you.
All right, end of my off topic rambling, posted due the disappearance of my previous short comment (as if I was the insulting one or something). I expect this one to stay.
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@khoridor For the record... your posts were completely on-topic and while I don't agree with everything you said, you presented very good arguments to back up your observations/opinions. MY post was certainly not aimed at you...
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how someone who calls him/her/kraself a roleplayer can be such an expert at completely missunderstand....
WTF, krans exist in RL now?!?!
/me carefully looks under the desk, making sure there are no gobbles there.
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@Bamko: Well you see now I'm very confused. There are conversations going on all the time debating 'forking of the project' and whatnot. Has it actually forked? Will we expect different features on each server? Has the focus become less about making an actual rp mmorpg and actually about making a generic mmorpg? I can only await clarification.
That aside, don't get me wrong. I do enjoy the mechanics myself when they're realistic and work towards being immersive. I don't see how anyone could enjoy mechanics that weren't to be honest. So, no, I do not fight mechanics. I have msn already so why would I play otherwise? (Didn't you mention ad hominems? Here's a wonderful strawman.) I love quests. I love the depths of the settings. I love social interaction. I simply don't enjoy grinding for months to get the character I want to play.
Also, take a look at the next part of that post.
It is not going to take the place of laanx.fragnetics.com; instead it is going to provide us with a great place to run trials of new features and get feedback. If these features function well and don't disturb the flow of RP, they will then be added to laanx.
Also,
We chose this path so that all of us, team members and players alike, can use the new server to better focus on testing improved game code and new features while allowing laanx to remain the haven of entertaining RP that keeps PlaneShift lore alive. This new approach can also lead to a more stable laanx if the PlaneShift community comes together to help make this server a fully populated proving-ground for fresh concepts.
That would lead me to believe, maybe falsely, that this is a server for testing things that will end up in the single server, dynamic player-influenced roleplaying game that we were always promised.
@Mythryndel: I agree. But all through the time I've been playing this game it has been solely an rp game. I'm simply going on what I've learned over those years. The brainchild of Talad, the actual roleplaying mmorpg. If I'm wrong and things have changed I'd love to hear it.
@Irgendwer: It has always catered to a certain type of gamer. Just like any game. If every game catered to the biggest demographic then they'd all be the same. It was always my impression this wouldn't be one of those generic grindfests. Also, I'm not belittling anyone with that enlightened crap. Yet more strawmen.
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Topic Bump....
....was made easier, would you prefer it? Being able to max everything in a couple of weeks for example.
If yes, would it not mean that everyone was, rather quickly, equally leet and defeat the object of you levelling up in the first place?
If no, should levelling take even longer than it does now?
If niether, is the system perfect as it is?
No really, that is the topic.
And my apparently useless on topic post
Very tough question. ...
Go back and read it.
Then if you still have an urge to flame anything in this thread, flame that
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The project seems to be forking to me too, even with the "testing" guise of EZ. If you have one set of features on Laanx, but then completely different set of features on the other server, when it comes down to it you have two different games sharing the same art and settings.
Most games, when they divide RP and regular servers, make the RP one different only with strict anti-PvP rules and roleplay enforcement. In every other way, it's the same game using the same mechanics. This doesn't seem to be what the PS team is aiming for, so I'd too love further clarification.
Anyway, on the subject of leveling, I generally prefer hard without being too repetitive to keep me active. The problem that's always existed in PS is leveling being the same thing over and over again, with no increase in difficulty - just increase in time.
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Personally I can see two developers working on competing visions of some particular aspect of the game and having a community to test out their particular vision with the aim of having the best approach ultimately adopted. I would not consider this a forking affair, just concurrent development. Some of these things can be put together in a number of different ways depending on developer expertise or whatever. Someone could come along with a technically advanced design and be completely unable to code it while someone else might have a more simplistic approach that he is able to nail down efficiently in code. You just do not know until you have tried.
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@Karyuu... I agree wholeheartedly with your on-topic critique. I would love to see new activities or even just more advanced activities required at higher levels... not simply more time/trias.
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Here's the thing, then: will EZ keep the features that Laanx rejects, or will they be removed as well in order to unify the whole game? If the rejected features are kept, my previous point about forking still stands. If they are removed, there is no issue and it really is just more of a testing server than Laanx.
@Mythryndel: Thanks ;) Unfortunately this is hard to come by in any MMO, even those already developed. Repetition is difficult to avoid. (I think the best end-game content was available in Ryzom, which allowed players to create their own scripted scenarios and thus expand their playtime endlessly with others.) The key is just having a lot of variety, and that takes a long time to develop. Eep.
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....was made easier, would you prefer it? Being able to max everything in a couple of weeks for example.
If yes, would it not mean that everyone was, rather quickly, equally leet and defeat the object of you levelling up in the first place?
If no, should levelling take even longer than it does now?
If niether, is the system perfect as it is?
As I mentioned before, with too much reply to off topic discussions of wipes and stuff, I think it is pretty well balanced. I do not think everyone should be able to, or want to spend the time to be able to make perfect swords, axes, daggers, be maxed out on all the ways of magic, and such. it should be, as it is now, a real achievement to max out on any skill/ability. your first perfect sword should be an event to hold a party, IMO.
The only Asterisk is on repair armor. I have met quite a few who could make a perfect sword (on Fragnetics, not here on EZPCUSA, and check it out, that is the section of the forum we are discussing this... ) but I do not think I ever met anyone who could repair Platemail. I know I worked a lot and even I, one who "grinds" a lot, gave up on it. To make it more balanced, you could give unseen points for Blacksmithing to apply to armor repair, maybe, and this is just a suggestion, for every 5 points of BS maybe 3 points towards Chainmail repair, and 2 points towards Platemail repair. that way, if you have say level 10 on repair armor, you can work on your blacksmithing skill to help get you to be able to repair your chainmail or platemail.
Currently (In fragnetics again) PPle seem to run around either in leather or nekkid, and don platemail only for special rare events, so not to ruin it while hunting Ulbers, for example. Maybe that is the intention, but I think it would be reasonable to buff the Repair armor skill a bit.
super high level magic training is hard, long time, and really expensive? yeah, I kind of expect it would be. I remember during the Guild war on fragnetics people were wearing 2 brown way rings, and looking for any weapons that would buff them up even a little, because they were maxed out on Brown way, and with that, they were able to take out any sword, axe or Crystal Way Mage. that tells me that magic is not too weak, as I hear a lot. When you stand no chance against someone who is using one Way, because you are not, that really essentially makes it the only reasonable way to follow (excect some CW for healing, of course). AS Mu talks about http://mu.ranter.net/theory/ (http://mu.ranter.net/theory/) that can limit the options people play. trouble is it is nearly impossible to see what effects are, until you test them. I would of never guessed th power of the Brown way before the guildwar. and Bamko on Fragnetics has a decently high Brown Way.
There Pizik, hope that helps.
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I think you are all confused. The new server was created so that non-RPers could have their own game and community. Both servers are testing servers.
It was decided that everyone will be happier if PlaneShift is split into two communities.
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@Zanzibar... I agree with you for the most part here... don't die of shock... well... anyway... The COMMUNITIES will be different, but the game will largely be the same... the DEVS will be the same... just a bit of feature testing will be done on one server or the other first to fine-tune it before applying it across the board.
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I think you are all confused. ...
I think you are confused about the topic
So far we have:
2 or 3 "we need a new way to level"
1 "leveling is ok, just needs to be tweaked in a spot or two"
1 "to balance current leveling grind with fun, we need more info on player expectations and Devs idea of a fair grind"
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I'm not confused at all, my post is directly related to previous posts in the thread.
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@Quin I think you are pretty close... I think there is a general agreement that (with the exception of armor/weapon repair) that starting levels are ok... and well balanced. The real issue is really beyond level 10 or so... It ceases to be fun or even rewarding for each level gained at a certain point... and it just takes more and more time and trias... If there were alternate activities or if different, but related, activities gave better practice at higher levels it would be better.
Example...
Sword making... you start out with the ability to make 4 blades... and handles... the only thing I can tell is that the bigger blades take more time to hammer out... but give the same practice as a small blade. If you could only make a small blade at first... and then could start making the larger blades with higher skill... but could progress quicker at higher levels by making the larger blades... this would be both more realistic and provide benefits to training additional levels without making it simply take longer.
I wholeheartedly agree that it would be nice to get a dev perspective on what is desired in training!
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Here's the thing, then: will EZ keep the features that Laanx rejects, or will they be removed as well in order to unify the whole game? If the rejected features are kept, my previous point about forking still stands. If they are removed, there is no issue and it really is just more of a testing server than Laanx.
If the people on EZ enjoy those features then they will be kept. I see no point in removing something that people enjoy for the sake of unity.
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Then you can't really argue in the same vein that the game won't look forked. EZP will keep floating around with features Laanx doesn't have, and feel like a different game if they keep adding up.
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Then you can't really argue in the same vein that the game won't look forked. EZP will keep floating around with features Laanx doesn't have, and feel like a different game if they keep adding up.
The code base will be the same, any features undesired on laanx will be disabled with a flag somewhere, maybe in a config file.
Whether or not they appear to be slightly different from a gameplay perspective is irrelevant. :) I very much doubt that there will end up being a big difference anyway.
Most of the things that won't be enabled on laanx would probably be minor. I just can't see say, two different magic systems.
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Laanx will be more revolving around Roleplay, EZPC will have more activated features for non-RPers to have fun with.
To answer the original, question, I think leveling should be easier. This coming from someone who trained 50 levels of sword in 5 days when given the funds to do so.
I maxed my stuff once, but it was easier to do so back then with a month or two of leveling every so often. Not grinding for several hours every day (except that whole 50 lvls of sword bit, I leveled all day for 5 days >.>)
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Personally, I was hoping leveling would be easier on the EZPC Server as well as rarer items showing up more, too. If everything is exactly the same as Laanx, then I'd just start another character on there instead of doing the work on a server that doesn't seem "alive". Also limits should be taking off so people could level as high as they wanted, make it a PLers Utopia.
Divide the PPs needed by trainers by 10 and multiply the practice points and experience gained when executing the skill by 10. Oh, and make every NPC a trainer of every skill... that'd speed things up ;D. And it is far from perfect, but the code would need to be rewritten for some of my ideas and it is a subjective subject anyhow, so I'll pipe down...
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Regaerdless of what would be best for testing should we not also ask what would be best for the main server? Wait, that might be a duplicate... or maybe not... or maybe... So whats the deal? One game or two?
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Here's the thing, then: will EZ keep the features that Laanx rejects, or will they be removed as well in order to unify the whole game? If the rejected features are kept, my previous point about forking still stands. If they are removed, there is no issue and it really is just more of a testing server than Laanx.
If the people on EZ enjoy those features then they will be kept. I see no point in removing something that people enjoy for the sake of unity.
Hmm. Does this mean that PlaneShift's art will now be under an open license? (It's currently under a propriety license for the sake of unity.) Will PlaneShift players be able to set up private servers using the PlaneShift code and art?
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Hmm. Does this mean that PlaneShift's art will now be under an open license? (It's currently under a propriety license for the sake of unity.) Will PlaneShift players be able to set up private servers using the PlaneShift code and art?
the planeshift license has NOTHING to do with the use of this server nor the art and code.
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Hmm. Does this mean that PlaneShift's art will now be under an open license? (It's currently under a propriety license for the sake of unity.) Will PlaneShift players be able to set up private servers using the PlaneShift code and art?
the planeshift license has NOTHING to do with the use of this server nor the art and code.
Reall? You don't think so? The discussion was on forking the game and splitting the community / playerbase across multiple servers. The reason the art is protected is so that PlaneShift stays PlaneShift. If other games can use the art, then PlaneShift loses its uniqueness.
If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?
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If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?
as the content and art will NEVER come out the license it is under no question about it. opening this server has NOTHING to do with changes to the license.
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If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?
Firstly, your statement that the license is as it is for the sake of unity is incorrect.
One reason for the restrictive license is that artists generally seem to be happier knowing that their work is only being used for what they created it for, PlaneShift, not for any other game.
Just because there's two official servers doesn't mean that one of them isn't PlaneShift.
The difference between a player public server (I assume you meant this, as there's nothing we'd do against private servers) and any we make is that we control what's on our servers, ensuring that the game doesn't drift into something we don't like (pornshift?).
So, I'm not sure how any connection can be made between this and the license, without scraping the bottom of the barrel :)
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If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?
as the content and art will NEVER come out the license it is under no question about it. opening this server has NOTHING to do with changes to the license.
You didn't answer my question, and I already explained how the discussion connects to the license... I thank Xordan for actually answering my question.
Firstly, your statement that the license is as it is for the sake of unity is incorrect.
One reason for the restrictive license is that artists generally seem to be happier knowing that their work is only being used for what they created it for, PlaneShift, not for any other game.
Just because there's two official servers doesn't mean that one of them isn't PlaneShift.
The difference between a player public server (I assume you meant this, as there's nothing we'd do against private servers) and any we make is that we control what's on our servers, ensuring that the game doesn't drift into something we don't like (pornshift?).
So, I'm not sure how any connection can be made between this and the license, without scraping the bottom of the barrel :)
Both servers are PlaneShift. But they're two different universes. And you're right, I should have said player public server when I said private server. I thought they were called private servers because they're privately operated.
The way it connects is because I thought the art was under a propriety license because Talad wanted PlaneShift to be unique, and he wanted to enforce a one-universe philosophy. We were told that there would never be multiple servers because of that.
My thinking was that since there are multiple servers, and since apparently PlaneShift's owners don't care about roleplay especially (Vengeance said this explicitly, that roleplay was never a priority for him), then the roleplay environment is really driven more by the community and specific lower devs such as Under The Moon and Xillix, and if you put it all together then the dev team shouldn't care too much about player public servers.
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Are you being dense on purpose? The team deciding to open another server does NOT change the license on any part of the code, art, or anything else that is contained in PlaneShift. Period. That part has been answered since you first asked it.
As to the dual server thing... I think you are mistaken. I have seen several mentions of running multiple servers over the last year. Also, the Google Tech Talk mentioned expansion and that the code had always been written to allow more than one server. Granted, they originally planned on a single Y'liakum running across many servers... but still. Nothing has changed in the license to make any of the recent changes possible. The entity that owns PlaneShift still controls and operates the servers we are using... or has authorized them. However... I must ask... what on earth does this have to do with "leveling"?
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Are you being dense on purpose? The team deciding to open another server does NOT change the license on any part of the code, art, or anything else that is contained in PlaneShift. Period. That part has been answered since you first asked it.
As to the dual server thing... I think you are mistaken. I have seen several mentions of running multiple servers over the last year. Also, the Google Tech Talk mentioned expansion and that the code had always been written to allow more than one server. Granted, they originally planned on a single Y'liakum running across many servers... but still. Nothing has changed in the license to make any of the recent changes possible. The entity that owns PlaneShift still controls and operates the servers we are using... or has authorized them. However... I must ask... what on earth does this have to do with "leveling"?
Are you putting words in my mouth on purpose? The team deciding to open another server does NOT change the license on any part of the code, art, or anything else that is contained in PlaneShift. Period. And I never implied any such silly thing in any of my posts, nor was my question on whether or not such a thing had come to pass. My question was if such a thing was being considered and if PlaneShift was moving in that direction.
As to the dual server thing... I think you are mistaken. I have seen several statements that PlaneShift would never be run on multiple severs over the last four years. Granted, they have every right to change their mind on such things... but still. It was a surprise for me.
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******! Really?
Thanks for that last load of spam walling off the topic.
I'd re-quote Pizik again, but Bamko already did and it's obviously consciously ignored.
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So far we have:
2 or 3 "we need a new way to level"
1 "leveling is ok, just needs to be tweaked in a spot or two"
1 "to balance current leveling grind with fun, we need more info on player expectations and Devs idea of a fair grind"
looks like we should add:
2 votes for "it would be nice if leveling were faster"
I'm going to agree with Farren and StitchedChin on the leveling faster, but only up to that mythical point where the player starts to feel happy with their character.
Any other players who like working with the game mechanics remember the levels of their attributes and skills when this happened?
After that point though I think that gaining levels should become a bigger challenge.
I really agree with the "we need new ways of leveling" posts. But I haven't heard any indication that the current system supports anything other than giving out more PP for quests (I happen to think PP should be dropped)
Bamko-
I know you've done alot of grinding in the recent past
Do you remember what levels you were at in metallurgy/blacksmithing/weaponmaking when you were able to make what you thought were good weapons? (what quality were the weapons when you began to be satisfied?)
And more importantly - how many hours of grinding do you think it took to get to those levels?
You also seem to like harassing the Ulbers. Do you remember levels and hours of grinding for that hobby?
Unfortunately I have a low tolerance for grinding, so my 3 years with one character and not having anything maxed out shouldn't be taken as a norm. But I was happy with my character before the end of the first year (still probably much slower than the norm). So for me, faster leveling would probably mean I would be maxing out my character about ... now.
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Some skills:
- I'm happy since Sword 10 because I feel relatively safe in the wilds: that's enough to survive most beasts, and the occasional rogue in Oja. It was very, very quick to get there, from scratch.
- I'm happy with Light Armor 30. It took me about 2 days to get there, training Repair Weapons at the same time.
- I became happy with Repair Weapons 18, for some reason. It took me 2 full days (or maybe 15 hours) from level 13 to 18. Except that, for training that particular skill, 95% of the time is spent fighting, in order to damage weapons. (And I guess if I had higher Sword, it would take longer).
- I'm happy with Metallurgy 10, as I don't want to smelt precious ores. And I regularly make q300 steel with it. 1 or 2 game sessions were enough to reach 10 in Oja (starting at 0), including the mining time.
- Strangely, the craft I do the most is mining, 90% gold, and I'm only level 13 after 18 months of irregular play (with a StoneBreaker starting at level 3 or 4). I'm neither happy nor unhappy with it (no apparent effect), but I'd keep training that one forever and never mine without the progress bar being green.
I maxed 4 stats in just a few days; all it took was camping a Dark Rogue and mining some gold. The first and most important to me was Strength, and I became happy when I could carry some quest heavy anvil. I'm also happy to have done so with Endurance. Charisma and Will were a test, and I don't care about them.
I won't touch Agility and Intelligence, the latter because I believe it shouldn't be possible to do so.
(If I remember more, I'll edit this post.)
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Well, I said my 2 tria (and then some) already, but since I was asked a direct question....
"I know you've done alot of grinding in the recent past Do you remember what levels you were at in metallurgy/blacksmithing/weaponmaking when you were able to make what you thought were good weapons? (what quality were the weapons when you began to be satisfied?)" A: On Fragnetics, I got up to I think BS=35 SM=32 with some dagger and axe and shield making, just for fun. I got so, with effort and technique (work 4 blades, always working on lowest Q one, until the lowest is about as high as others and higher than ave, then sharpen it and do the process again, then combine, I would get a lot better Q than others said they did with the same levels....) That enabled me to get some perfect ones, but a lot of mid quality ones to play with or give to freinds. Never sold a perfect one, bamko would get his tria by hunting. In ezpcusa I think my BS is 2 and my axemaking is 1 or 2. I have made 2 Q120 small axes so I can actually hit ulbers once in a while.
"And more importantly - how many hours of grinding do you think it took to get to those levels?: A: On fragnetics, I would say probably about 4000 hours IRL. I can not tell you how many times I pressed the "," key (my shortcut for "/use") but it allowed me to chat and daydream.... I doubt I will level that high on ezpcusa, esp with the talk of wipes already....
"You also seem to like harassing the Ulbers. Do you remember levels and hours of grinding for that hobby?" A: Harassing? there is ajoke there... but ... ;D I remember very well, I do it now in ezpcusa already. I have q120 axes, my axefighting level is about 9 I think, my Lightarmor is 6-ish and my MA is 1 (gloves) and no helm yet. The trick is in the timing... much like dueling, except you can USUSALLY predict the timing of an NPC attack better. ]ulbers are not as smart as duelists, they just keep on attacking, a duelist can stop attacks and wait for you to start moving in....[
Of course it may take 5 minutes to kill one, vs bamko on Fragnetics killing on with a flower.... OF DOOM! (charmflower in right hand, level 80-something melee, looks like slapping with flower, but actually hitting with left hand... fun times that....)
While I am on a roll again, a couple points.
I sure hope that a pure vote/headcount is not used to decide what will be done with PS. Many want things to be easier, but they are often the same ones who, when max out, get bored and move on, IMO. Some seem to think that playing the game (called grinding, which kind of shows how some just want to "win" the game and finish it, not enjoy the process, again IMO) is a bad thing. Maybe I just do not understand, but if you really like "grinding" <<shudder at term>> why do you want it to be easier and over quicker? What pride can you have making Q300 swords if everyone can make them? I just do not understand, but I suspect these are not grinders, just those who do not want to do the grinding, but want the benefit. I do not think that will make testers stick around longer, nor test the mechanics as well, though it would encourage more wipes... which would further alienate testers IMO. But hey, it is Talad's game.
And regarding licences and art, IMO making it open would encourge more people to work on it. I have known several coders who looked into PS and moved on once they found out that their work not only would not belong to them, but they wouldnot be able to use it elsewhere. I am sure the current art staff likes the current method, or they would be gone, but I wonder if it is not cutting off ones nose to spite ones face. Of course the licensing is pretty clear, and PS has every right to have whatever system they see fit, Just adding my thoughts on it since it was discussed here...
So... question to Dev leaders or whomever has authority. What kind of testers do you want on each server? You can keep the RP aspect on Fragnetics and still est a lot of things on EZPCusa, I think it is a great Idea to do this, but I want to encourage a simple acid test. When something major is going to be changed, (like making it so you can level max any skill in 4 hours) ask yourself; Will this discourage our testers? which kind of testers do we like?
It seems EZPCusa would be great for players who like to grind and see new things and test things, while fragneitcs is the more traditional, conservative, reluctant to see any change, Rper. I think this idea of dual servers can be the best of both worlds, but I shudder when the RPlayers (RP-elite) start coming into the ezpcusa forums talking about wipes and making advancement involving more roleplay. I admit I fed the trolls a bit, oops. Sorry about that, I just assumed that someone of authority would point out this is the ezpcusa forums... not PS in general.
Anyways, I am waiting to see what will be done ingame on either server... I play for fun, and a wipe does not destroy me, I start characters all the time, but even the thought of a wipe stops me from grinding so hard... or playing as much. tomato Ta-Mah-to.
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Quin...Here are my thoughts...
Bamko, I want to hang out on EZPCUSA \\o// :thumbup:\\o// :thumbup: \\o//
Unfortunately I have a low tolerance for grinding, so my 3 years with one character and not having anything maxed out shouldn't be taken as a norm. But I was happy with my character before the end of the first year (still probably much slower than the norm). So for me, faster leveling would probably mean I would be maxing out my character about ... now.
Just wondering, why you are taking "an official poll". What are these votes going to be used for, and If I lose can I petition for a recount? Anyways...
Sure there are problems with leveling...Magic for instance, Crafting, Armor Repairs. You could go on and on. If it took you 3 years and you didn't max anything out maybe (just maybe) you should have stopped roleplaying and did a wee-bit of work every now and then! Look I have nothing against roleplaying, This whole conversation has been stupid (exept a few posts BAMKO Mythryndel XILLIX) but mostly it seems like another arguement about where ps is going. If you aren't happy with the leveling system DO NOT START OVER. easy right? Stay with your 3 year old unmaxed dude ;D you'll prolly get SOMETHING maxed by the time your coveted wipe comes. :oops: I like ps the way it is, and I will continue to be happy with it. NO MATTER WHAT THE DEVS IMPLEMENT OR CHANGE.
Go buy WOW or something.(I'm sure there is "grinding" there too!)
GRINDING IS IN EVERY SINGLE GAME
*edit* So my vote is to keep the level system the same and NOT easier...HARDER if anything. It is waaaaay more rewarding this way.
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Grinding isn't in every game. Subspace, for instance. Guild wars by report.
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Well, I am sure that someone is "grinding" super hard to try to max... I would be :D
anyway, its just my thoughts anyways...everyone has their own ideas, and everyone else is wrong. Its just human nature
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Just wondering, why you are taking "an official poll".
Absolutely nothing even remotely official about my posts.
Just trying keep some focus on nuggets of info in a wall of spam.
(... so, I can put you down for - if any changes are made, make it Harder! :D )
I don't want to make it sound like I don't do any grinding. Over the time, I've amassed a boat-load of un-used PP. It's just that I've never had very many tria to use to convert them into skills. I've got more than enough PP to max all my attributes plus a couple of fighting and armor skills. Don't know what levels any of the magic Ways top out at or how many PP it would take, but I could probably get one or two of those too. It's just that mining drives me slowly insane. The last time I remember enjoying mining was back when the platinum vein in the Laanx dungeon was still active. But that was because of the conversations, not the act of mining. Did I mention that I hate mining?
So I guess my real vote would go along with those that said - We need new ways to level.
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I don't like that leveling is seen as an ends unto itself.
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I think that for some, the leveling itself is the accomplishment.
But for most, imho, it's for the things that you can do in game, things you couldn't do at the lower levels and (not bashing RP here) things you can back up with actions, not just say you can do.
And of course, I think that some just want to be 1337.