Author Topic: If Leveling....  (Read 13013 times)

zanzibar

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2009, 01:29:51 am »
Here's the thing, then: will EZ keep the features that Laanx rejects, or will they be removed as well in order to unify the whole game? If the rejected features are kept, my previous point about forking still stands. If they are removed, there is no issue and it really is just more of a testing server than Laanx.

If the people on EZ enjoy those features then they will be kept. I see no point in removing something that people enjoy for the sake of unity.
Hmm.  Does this mean that PlaneShift's art will now be under an open license?  (It's currently under a propriety license for the sake of unity.)  Will PlaneShift players be able to set up private servers using the PlaneShift code and art?
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Caarrie

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2009, 01:35:40 am »
Hmm.  Does this mean that PlaneShift's art will now be under an open license?  (It's currently under a propriety license for the sake of unity.)  Will PlaneShift players be able to set up private servers using the PlaneShift code and art?

the planeshift license has NOTHING to do with the use of this server nor the art and code.

zanzibar

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2009, 02:28:27 am »
Hmm.  Does this mean that PlaneShift's art will now be under an open license?  (It's currently under a propriety license for the sake of unity.)  Will PlaneShift players be able to set up private servers using the PlaneShift code and art?

the planeshift license has NOTHING to do with the use of this server nor the art and code.
Reall?  You don't think so?  The discussion was on forking the game and splitting the community / playerbase across multiple servers.  The reason the art is protected is so that PlaneShift stays PlaneShift.  If other games can use the art, then PlaneShift loses its uniqueness.

If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?
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Caarrie

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2009, 02:30:31 am »
If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?

as the content and art will NEVER come out the license it is under no question about it. opening this server has NOTHING to do with changes to the license.

Xordan

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2009, 02:47:53 am »
If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?

Firstly, your statement that the license is as it is for the sake of unity is incorrect.
One reason for the restrictive license is that artists generally seem to be happier knowing that their work is only being used for what they created it for, PlaneShift, not for any other game.
Just because there's two official servers doesn't mean that one of them isn't PlaneShift.
The difference between a player public server (I assume you meant this, as there's nothing we'd do against private servers) and any we make is that we control what's on our servers, ensuring that the game doesn't drift into something we don't like (pornshift?).

So, I'm not sure how any connection can be made between this and the license, without scraping the bottom of the barrel :)

zanzibar

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2009, 04:43:45 am »
If PlaneShift has abandoned the one-universe, one-server philosophy, then why should players be prevented from creating private servers using the game's code and art?

as the content and art will NEVER come out the license it is under no question about it. opening this server has NOTHING to do with changes to the license.
You didn't answer my question, and I already explained how the discussion connects to the license... I thank Xordan for actually answering my question.

Firstly, your statement that the license is as it is for the sake of unity is incorrect.
One reason for the restrictive license is that artists generally seem to be happier knowing that their work is only being used for what they created it for, PlaneShift, not for any other game.
Just because there's two official servers doesn't mean that one of them isn't PlaneShift.
The difference between a player public server (I assume you meant this, as there's nothing we'd do against private servers) and any we make is that we control what's on our servers, ensuring that the game doesn't drift into something we don't like (pornshift?).

So, I'm not sure how any connection can be made between this and the license, without scraping the bottom of the barrel :)
Both servers are PlaneShift.  But they're two different universes.  And you're right, I should have said player public server when I said private server.  I thought they were called private servers because they're privately operated.

The way it connects is because I thought the art was under a propriety license because Talad wanted PlaneShift to be unique, and he wanted to enforce a one-universe philosophy.  We were told that there would never be multiple servers because of that.

My thinking was that since there are multiple servers, and since apparently PlaneShift's owners don't care about roleplay especially (Vengeance said this explicitly, that roleplay was never a priority for him), then the roleplay environment is really driven more by the community and specific lower devs such as Under The Moon and Xillix, and if you put it all together then the dev team shouldn't care too much about player public servers.
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Mythryndel

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2009, 04:57:51 am »
Are you being dense on purpose? The team deciding to open another server does NOT change the license on any part of the code, art, or anything else that is contained in PlaneShift. Period. That part has been answered since you first asked it.

As to the dual server thing... I think you are mistaken. I have seen several mentions of running multiple servers over the last year. Also, the Google Tech Talk mentioned expansion and that the code had always been written to allow more than one server. Granted, they originally planned on a single Y'liakum running across many servers... but still. Nothing has changed in the license to make any of the recent changes possible. The entity that owns PlaneShift still controls and operates the servers we are using... or has authorized them. However... I must ask... what on earth does this have to do with "leveling"?

zanzibar

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2009, 05:16:31 am »
Are you being dense on purpose? The team deciding to open another server does NOT change the license on any part of the code, art, or anything else that is contained in PlaneShift. Period. That part has been answered since you first asked it.

As to the dual server thing... I think you are mistaken. I have seen several mentions of running multiple servers over the last year. Also, the Google Tech Talk mentioned expansion and that the code had always been written to allow more than one server. Granted, they originally planned on a single Y'liakum running across many servers... but still. Nothing has changed in the license to make any of the recent changes possible. The entity that owns PlaneShift still controls and operates the servers we are using... or has authorized them. However... I must ask... what on earth does this have to do with "leveling"?
Are you putting words in my mouth on purpose? The team deciding to open another server does NOT change the license on any part of the code, art, or anything else that is contained in PlaneShift. Period.  And I never implied any such silly thing in any of my posts, nor was my question on whether or not such a thing had come to pass.  My question was if such a thing was being considered and if PlaneShift was moving in that direction.

As to the dual server thing... I think you are mistaken. I have seen several statements that PlaneShift would never be run on multiple severs over the last four years.  Granted, they have every right to change their mind on such things... but still.  It was a surprise for me.
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Quin

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2009, 05:21:44 am »
******! Really?
Thanks for that last load of spam walling off the topic.
I'd re-quote Pizik again, but Bamko already did and it's obviously consciously ignored.

----------------------------------------

So far we have:
2 or 3 "we need a new way to level"
1 "leveling is ok, just needs to be tweaked in a spot or two"
1 "to balance current leveling grind with fun, we need more info on player expectations and Devs idea of a fair grind"
looks like we should add:
2 votes for "it would be nice if leveling were faster"

I'm going to agree with Farren and StitchedChin on the leveling faster, but only up to that mythical point where the player starts to feel happy with their character.
Any other players who like working with the game mechanics remember the levels of their attributes and skills when this happened?
After that point though I think that gaining levels should become a bigger challenge.
I really agree with the "we need new ways of leveling" posts.  But I haven't heard any indication that the current system supports anything other than giving out more PP for quests (I happen to think PP should be dropped)

Bamko-
I know you've done alot of grinding in the recent past
Do you remember what levels you were at in metallurgy/blacksmithing/weaponmaking when you were able to make what you thought were good weapons? (what quality were the weapons when you began to be satisfied?)
And more importantly - how many hours of grinding do you think it took to get to those levels?

You also seem to like harassing the Ulbers.  Do you remember levels and hours of grinding for that hobby?

Unfortunately I have a low tolerance for grinding, so my 3 years with one character and not having anything maxed out shouldn't be taken as a norm.  But I was happy with my character before the end of the first year (still probably much slower than the norm).  So for me, faster leveling would probably mean I would be maxing out my character about ... now.
Quinidain Sherkhan : Enkidukai knife fighter and Starlight Hunter , living life one rat hide at a time

khoridor

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2009, 12:08:06 pm »
Some skills:
- I'm happy since Sword 10 because I feel relatively safe in the wilds: that's enough to survive most beasts, and the occasional rogue in Oja. It was very, very quick to get there, from scratch.
- I'm happy with Light Armor 30. It took me about 2 days to get there, training Repair Weapons at the same time.
- I became happy with Repair Weapons 18, for some reason. It took me 2 full days (or maybe 15 hours) from level 13 to 18. Except that, for training that particular skill, 95% of the time is spent fighting, in order to damage weapons. (And I guess if I had higher Sword, it would take longer).
- I'm happy with Metallurgy 10, as I don't want to smelt precious ores. And I regularly make q300 steel with it. 1 or 2 game sessions were enough to reach 10 in Oja (starting at 0), including the mining time.
- Strangely, the craft I do the most is mining, 90% gold, and I'm only level 13 after 18 months of irregular play (with a StoneBreaker starting at level 3 or 4). I'm neither happy nor unhappy with it (no apparent effect), but I'd keep training that one forever and never mine without the progress bar being green.

I maxed 4 stats in just a few days; all it took was camping a Dark Rogue and mining some gold. The first and most important to me was Strength, and I became happy when I could carry some quest heavy anvil. I'm also happy to have done so with Endurance. Charisma and Will were a test, and I don't care about them.
I won't touch Agility and Intelligence, the latter because I believe it shouldn't be possible to do so.

(If I remember more, I'll edit this post.)

Bamko

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2009, 01:47:06 pm »
Well, I said my 2 tria (and then some) already, but since I was asked a direct question....

"I know you've done alot of grinding in the recent past Do you remember what levels you were at in metallurgy/blacksmithing/weaponmaking when you were able to make what you thought were good weapons? (what quality were the weapons when you began to be satisfied?)" A: On Fragnetics, I got up to I think BS=35 SM=32 with some dagger and axe and shield making, just for fun.  I got so, with effort and technique (work 4 blades, always working on lowest Q one, until the lowest is about as high as others and higher than ave, then sharpen it and do the process again, then combine, I would get a lot better Q than others said they did with the same levels....) That enabled me to get some perfect ones, but a lot of mid quality ones to play with or give to freinds.  Never sold a perfect one, bamko would get his tria by hunting.  In ezpcusa I think my BS is 2 and my axemaking is 1 or 2.  I have made 2 Q120 small axes so I can actually hit ulbers once in a while.

"And more importantly - how many hours of grinding do you think it took to get to those levels?: A: On fragnetics, I would say probably about 4000 hours IRL.  I can not tell you how many times I pressed the "," key (my shortcut for "/use") but it allowed me to chat and daydream.... I doubt I will level that high on ezpcusa, esp with the talk of wipes already....

"You also seem to like harassing the Ulbers.  Do you remember levels and hours of grinding for that hobby?" A: Harassing?  there is ajoke there... but ...  ;D  I remember very well, I do it now in ezpcusa already.  I have q120 axes, my axefighting level is about 9 I think, my Lightarmor is 6-ish and my MA is 1 (gloves) and no helm yet.  The trick is in the timing... much like dueling, except you can USUSALLY predict the timing of an NPC attack better.  ]ulbers are not as smart as duelists, they just keep on attacking, a duelist can stop attacks and wait for you to start moving in....[

Of course it may take 5 minutes to kill one, vs bamko on Fragnetics killing on with a flower.... OF DOOM! (charmflower in right hand, level 80-something melee, looks like slapping with flower, but actually hitting with left hand... fun times that....)

While I am on a roll again, a couple points.

I sure hope that a pure vote/headcount is not used to decide what will be done with PS.  Many want things to be easier, but they are often the same ones who, when max out, get bored and move on, IMO.  Some seem to think that playing the game (called grinding, which kind of shows how some just want to "win" the game and finish it, not enjoy the process, again IMO) is a bad thing.  Maybe I just do not understand, but if  you really like "grinding" <<shudder at term>> why do you want it to be easier and over quicker?  What pride can you have making Q300 swords if everyone can make them?  I just do not understand, but I suspect these are not grinders, just those who do not want to do the grinding, but want the benefit.  I do not think that will make testers stick around longer, nor test the mechanics as well, though it would encourage more wipes... which would further alienate testers IMO.  But hey, it is Talad's game. 

And regarding licences and art, IMO making it open would encourge more people to work on it.  I have known several coders who looked into PS and moved on once they found out that their work not only would not belong to them, but they wouldnot be able to use it elsewhere.  I am sure the current art staff likes the current method, or they would be gone, but I wonder if it is not cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.  Of course the licensing is pretty clear, and PS has every right to have whatever system they see fit, Just adding my thoughts on it since it was discussed here...

So... question to Dev leaders or whomever has authority.  What kind of testers do you want on each server?  You can keep the RP aspect on Fragnetics and still est a lot of things on EZPCusa, I think it is a great Idea to do this, but I want to encourage a simple acid test.  When something major is going to be changed, (like making it so you can level max any skill in 4 hours) ask yourself; Will this discourage our testers?  which kind of testers do we like?

It seems EZPCusa would be great for players who like to grind and see new things and test things, while fragneitcs is the more traditional, conservative, reluctant to see any change, Rper.  I think this idea of dual servers can be the best of both worlds, but I shudder when the RPlayers (RP-elite) start coming into the ezpcusa forums talking about wipes and making advancement involving more roleplay.  I admit I fed the trolls a bit, oops.  Sorry about that, I just assumed that someone of authority would point out this is the ezpcusa forums... not PS in general. 

Anyways, I am waiting to see what will be done ingame on either server... I play for fun, and a wipe does not destroy me, I start characters all the time, but even the thought of a wipe stops me from grinding so hard... or playing as much.  tomato Ta-Mah-to.

Madoring

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2009, 01:50:12 pm »
Quin...Here are my thoughts...
Bamko, I want to hang out on EZPCUSA  \\o//  :thumbup:\\o// :thumbup: \\o//
Unfortunately I have a low tolerance for grinding, so my 3 years with one character and not having anything maxed out shouldn't be taken as a norm.  But I was happy with my character before the end of the first year (still probably much slower than the norm).  So for me, faster leveling would probably mean I would be maxing out my character about ... now.


Just wondering, why you are taking "an official poll".  What are these votes going to be used for, and If I lose can I petition for a recount?  Anyways...

Sure there are problems with leveling...Magic for instance, Crafting, Armor Repairs.  You could go on and on.  If it took you 3 years and you didn't max anything out maybe (just maybe) you should have stopped roleplaying and did a wee-bit of work every now and then!  Look I have nothing against roleplaying, This whole conversation has been stupid (exept a few posts BAMKO Mythryndel XILLIX)  but mostly it seems like another arguement about where ps is going.  If you aren't happy with the leveling system DO NOT START OVER.  easy right?  Stay with your 3 year old unmaxed dude ;D  you'll prolly get SOMETHING maxed by the time your coveted wipe comes.  :oops:  I like ps the way it is, and I will continue to be happy with it.  NO MATTER WHAT THE DEVS IMPLEMENT OR CHANGE.
Go buy WOW or something.(I'm sure there is "grinding" there too!)
GRINDING IS IN EVERY SINGLE GAME


*edit* So my vote is to keep the level system the same and NOT easier...HARDER if anything.  It is waaaaay more rewarding this way. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 09:16:29 pm by Madoring »

zanzibar

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2009, 09:22:09 pm »
Grinding isn't in every game.  Subspace, for instance.  Guild wars by report.
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Madoring

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2009, 09:24:52 pm »
Well, I am sure that someone is "grinding" super hard to try to max... I would be  :D
anyway, its just my thoughts anyways...everyone has their own ideas, and everyone else is wrong.  Its just human nature

Quin

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Re: If Leveling....
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2009, 09:53:03 pm »
Just wondering, why you are taking "an official poll". 

Absolutely nothing even remotely official about my posts.
Just trying keep some focus on nuggets of info in a wall of spam.

(... so, I can put you down for - if any changes are made, make it Harder!  :D )


I don't want to make it sound like I don't do any grinding.  Over the time, I've amassed a boat-load of un-used PP.  It's just that I've never had very many tria to use to convert them into skills.  I've got more than enough PP to max all my attributes plus a couple of fighting and armor skills.  Don't know what levels any of the magic Ways top out at or how many PP it would take, but I could probably get one or two of those too.  It's just that mining drives me slowly insane.  The last time I remember enjoying mining was back when the platinum vein in the Laanx dungeon was still active.  But that was because of the conversations, not the act of mining. Did I mention that I hate mining?

So I guess my real vote would go along with those that said - We need new ways to level.
Quinidain Sherkhan : Enkidukai knife fighter and Starlight Hunter , living life one rat hide at a time