PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Hangatyr on May 12, 2009, 11:15:28 pm
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Gratz to the new 'realism' added to the game!
Crafting was annoying, but now it’s a pain in the butt.
Let’s see how realistic it is now: (skipping the part of making the blade)
1. move to the forge
2. right click on the forge
3. click on the symbol
4. click again to open the inventory
5. click on the blade, move it to the slot
6. click again to drop it
wait a minute to heat up the blade
7. click to select the blade
8. move and click again to drop the blade to the inventory
9. click to close the first windows
10. click to close the second window
11. move to the anvil
12. press 'I' or click to open inventory
13. click on blade
14. drag blade onto the slot and click again to dropp
15. right click the anvil
16. click 'use'
wait a minute until done
17. click on the blade
18. move and click again to drop the blade to the inventory
19. close inventory window by clicking or 'I'
move to the forge and start .... guess what?
Yeah you are right, start the loop at point 2. with frickin' clickin' again.
Yes it might be true (realistic) to heat up a blade again before you continue to work, but there must be some balance between realism and useful handling, this isn't useful a all. And talking about realism, why do I hammer a book?
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I'd say you can thank the botters for this but then, cheaters have made a huge number of perfectly reasonable things impossible.
I am sure the people slaving over making crafting work will be quite happy that they have finally hit the inevitable wall of player complaint so early in their efforts. :thumbup:
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Yes, I think this change is terrible too. You used to be able to complain by just saying: "It does not work!", but now you have to do:
1. Type 1
2. Add a .
3. Hit that big bar
4. Type m
5. type o
6. type v
7. type e
8. Hit that bar again!
9. Find the t again and hit it
10. type o
11. copy a space from somewhere
12. type a whole three letter word 'the'
13. hit the bar again
14. type f
15. type o
16. type r
17. type g
18. type e
19. and if that is not enough, hit the enter key
20. Then sort of start all over again at 1 and frickin' type many more! (note the complicated ' in there).
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You are right Lanarel (if I understood you correctly) moving something to the forge is not very complicated, done in some seconds.
But if you are training some smithing on high lvl moving a stock to the forge hundreds of time to reach the next lvl gets annoying if you want to train in an efficient way. The other possibility is to use stacks of heated steel, it works perfect until we recognize than we can not heat stacked *blades!
So lets say we have 4 stacks of heated blades we need to move our blades at least 520 times just to heat them. You can say: 'All the fun fades away'.
Please note: we live in a world where we have machines that do the easy tasks for us, tasks easy to automate. And now, in our freetime, we play a game, spending our time with easy tasks?, moving stocks to the forge and back hundreds of times? (I dont belive that there is any crafter over lvl 40 that never thought about a bot. And why not? Do I play to press /use every minute?)
And then something about realism. A smith will _never_ use a hammer for a ready, already sharpened blade. He would destroy all his work. (So if you want to avoid cheating at this point just disable hammering blade. Eh I know the problem with dull is still present.)
Just something I always wanted to say. I like this game, but these things....
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We'll look into it.
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That you all were able to endlessly mindlessly hammer a cold blade by spamming a shortcut key while watching a movie without even looking at the game was a long-standing bug. That wasn't the intent, but you just got used to it being that way. If you check shield crafting, you can't hammer anything cold there either, and couldn't do so in any recent past that I'm aware of.
There will be regular updates to crafting, and I'll recheck the bulk reheating of dull blades, as you -are- supposed to be able to do that, then hammer each one. You can also keep both the forge window and your model inventory window open and move directly from the equip slot to the forge slots. You should be able to hammer a dull blade, toss it back in the forge, and while that's heating up, equip and hammer another one. I'd expect an efficient smith could get 3 going around this way.
It also wasn't the intent for everyone to become an overnight master weapons crafter. To reach the highest levels should take a protracted commitment of time and effort, otherwise it's pointless entirely and we'd have just made perfect weapons available from NPC's made to order, priced accordingly, payable in platinum ore.
Have some patience over the next few weeks - some fun stuff is coming \\o//
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Hello
(opinion of a non-crafter)
Maybe the amount of time that has to put into the clicking is a point where some adjustments can be made. If it takes [random value] half a year of full time job to be able to make a good weapon I wouldn't know why anyone would like to craft. (Planeshift is a game, not a full time job...)
If people could see some progression after clicking their fingers bended the motivation would be higher. At least I think so ;)
Sen
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Shield-crafting is not that hard as you can heat stacks of spickes/handles/whatever...
It would be great if you make it possible for the other craftings too.
And about that heat.while-hammering...yes it was possible, I used this as trained shield making. But some time ago I had to recognize that it does noot work anymore. But I do not complain about it: It realism, you can hammer something which needs your undivided concenration and look into the forge 1 1/2 steps away at the same time.
*Thob waits without any patience*
:)
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It seems that if you are shooting for reality then then number of people who are master weapons crafters should be pretty low. The reality is there shouldn't be that many people who can crank out 300Q weapons and the people who are truly masters of the craft should be the ones who have been working at it for an extended period of time. To it it has always seems that you make faster progress towards getting a new level by actually completing swords vs standing around and endlessly hammering a blade. The only times I have hammered blades is when I was trying to improve the blade quality in order to hopefully get a higher quality finished sword.
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[rant]
Realism? you want realism?
I do some RL Blacksmithing and making 1 yes,just 1 decent blade takes at LEAST 3+ hours of work and thats not counting time spent tempering,sharpening and adding handles
some of the master japanese sowrdsmiths take 8 months to produce a Weapon for sale
So if you want realism.Try it the hard way heating a blade in RL takes 10-15 minutes at the very least ,just to get it to an un-forgable cherry red
Count yourself lucky
[/rant]
P.S:Sell your work,the feeling of having earned it and the trias helps the process of training
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Well Price of crafted weapon will increase a lot... ;D
but I think we should gain practice point while using forge... I was thinking crafting skill was a long way but now it will take years to be able to make a good weapon... and maybe 10 years to maxe one of those ways ... :'(
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Shield-crafting is not that hard as you can heat stacks of spickes/handles/whatever...
It would be great if you make it possible for the other craftings too.
And about that heat.while-hammering...yes it was possible, I used this as trained shield making. But some time ago I had to recognize that it does noot work anymore. But I do not complain about it: It realism, you can hammer something which needs your undivided concenration and look into the forge 1 1/2 steps away at the same time.
*Thob waits without any patience*
:)
thob: i wanna remind you shield has a LOT more pieces then a blade (its 2 pieces? and a more complex shield are 4+ pieces)
means the chance to make a good shield would be very very small.
it would also raise the prized higher so its barley payable.
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1) Blacksmithing is a hard life. With low pay. RP it.
2) I won't be paying piles of Tria for 300Q weapons.
So yeah.
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2) I won't be paying piles of Tria for 300Q weapons.
So yeah.
2) oh sure you will ;)
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just think about this would the time it takes to craft something shorten as you get better and the quality increase...therefore in reality someone who has made 1000 swords could do it faster and better then a person who has just started their first. Also most smiths work with an apprentice....or several to do a task i think some artists...lworking on large projects had dozens of other people helping thm...so in reality yea it may take a single(or even 2 people) to make a single sword in 3 months but we could just increase the laborers an viola a dozen workers could do it in a week lol. So reality all the limitations in a game cannont simulate reality...also by the way i could use modern techniques and make a higher quality sword then they could back then because they way to define steel is by its purity....most smiths could only make pig iron sword...a true steel sword would be a rare case because of the processes they used.
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This recent crafting change really is the final straw, :thumbdown: I'm out, my characters may be checked now and again, but are now essentially abandoned.
All these changes to planeshift, in the name of increasing realism are horribly misguided. :@#\ @Devs, shame on you
This is a game damnit, no matter how hard you try, it's still a game, and the characters are not real, no amount of RP will make them so. More importantly, I have a finite amount of time available, a 24 hour day, during which I have to "do stuff", and can't simply sit around all day wasting time on a game that's going nowhere.
X
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Gees mate no need to get too angry over a few fixes.
Brilliant blacksmiths are very rare. I'd hate to see Planeshift flooded in them.
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not to say it but shield crafting was always done this way this is just making all coherent. Actually we have lowered the times to heat the materials which wasn't done in the shield crafting
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I remember that game, Sapiens (http://www.mobygames.com/game/sapiens/) (which dates back to 1986 lol...) in which you could create weapons out of silex, and it was a minigame which required you to follow the outline with your mouse or something.
Anyway, I think forging, mining etc. should eventually be done through some kind of minigames so that :
-It will be less boring than clicking repeatedly
-It will require you to focus on what you're doing, which is realistic (even if the minigame in itself is not)
-Bots won't be able to do it.
-You'll be able to do it faster or better if you're actually good at the minigame, and not only because of your character's level.
PS : Just my 2 cents, sorry if it's already been discussed, I haven't come here in 4 years and didn't feel like reading all my unread messages ^^
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in real life, Magic does not exist, people DIE if they can not eat enough, and many people lead lives of quiet desperation. We come here to get away from some of that.
Also, In Real Life, I like doing work. A hobby I play with sometimes is ropemaking. Twine, cordage. Whatever. Sure, would be BORING to make a clickable process out of it, but nice to keep hands moving, cordage twisting, interlocking.
Point is, PS seems to be moving away from being fun. Add in a 1/3 second (seems longer lately) lag due to ping times, and the process is more like this:
Click on blade, wait for it to realize you clicked on it, move it and place in forge. opps, you dropped it, due to lag or something... man this thing is clunky... ok.. pick it up again.... ok.. in forge... ok, there is the message finally, pick it up.. quick.... dont want to over-heat it... whew... got it... now place it in inventory... ok.. now put it in hand....
yes, it is still easier than making swords in real life, but understand, you get to REALLY see the metal glow, you get to pound on REAL steel, and you get a REAL blade when you are done. And unless you are drinking a case of beer before you try to craft, you wont be as clumsy and as "shaky" as we are ingame.
Realism is nice, to a point. I am known as being a grinder who thinks it should take MORE effort to level up EVERYTHING, but, my dear fellows, Can we try to make it a little fun along the way?
I want to make swords for my guild. I have the dull blades, and I had time to make them over the weekend, and could not FORCE myself to log in to craft them. I watched re-runs and actually did some dirty jobs I was neglecting instead. I will finish those blades, but looking forward to it as I would look forward to a home lobotomy. And no way in heck will I spend the time to work and rework the blades to tweak a bit more quality into them.
So, until it is FUN, I will probably not be playing as much. But that has been my position for a while. Just commenting here as a desparate pleading
Want to make it harder to level, no problem, but please, place a higher priority on making it FUN-er? Sure not everyone like Desktop tower defense, but hey, a lot of people do, for example.
or you can keep making it more realistic, (realisiticly less fun) and you will find many will find other things to do with their time to escape from THIS reality. heck, Tonight options? finish up those blades, or pick up dog poop and trim my Old English sheepdog's butt. Tough call. Doubt I will be on tonight.... Seriously.
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I think its cool. I'm hoping that this will actually make some people shy away from crafting, as well as raise the value of swords (even like q200s). I think that crafters deserve more Trias for slaving over their work.
Hopefully this will make it harder to bot as well.
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Ah, but making something harder to bot does not necessarily make it enjoyable, and a game should be fun first and foremost. In addition, the rarity of something should never come from a lack of enthusiasm for trying. These are very bad arguments to use. But hey, if the team says they'll look into it, they will.
In the meantime, you could always make Wishlist threads with suggestions of more interesting crafting systems.
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The new change doesn't affect the making of a sword, unless you like to hammer a lot of the blade before making the finished product. If I'm just making a straight sword without hammering nothing has changed except the times to heat the blade is a bit shorter now. It is the endless hammering on a blade for sword making practice that takes longer now.
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The new change doesn't affect the making of a sword, unless you like to hammer a lot of the blade before making the finished product. If I'm just making a straight sword without hammering nothing has changed except the times to heat the blade is a bit shorter now. It is the endless hammering on a blade for sword making practice that takes longer now.
I have to state that not only the procedure has changed but apparently also the ratio quality/skill. i used to be able to make perfect blades within 1 or 2 efforts. Now i'm not even able to do this within 20 efforts or more. (to be precise, i haven't made a single one since the change). I don't see the point in reducing people's skills. From my point of view this is very frustrating. I don't know how you all feel but i'm asking myself if it makes sense to spend loads of time trying to become a good smith (or something else) if you can be downgraded to almost a beginner from one day to another. I understand the reasons for changing the procedure (more realistic and less "botable") but i can't see a point in reducing the skills. Maybe someone can explain this to me.
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We're making efforts to make the crafted weapons more valuable as well.
You have to have patience while we balance the system.
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With my fairly low skill levels ( 34 sword making and 40 blacksmith) I was able to make a 300Q saber today and it didn't take me that long to make it. The average quality of my swords is down but it felt good to make a 300Q sword again.
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my skills are quite low, ~20 bs and less for the various weapons. I have never made a weapon much better than 200 but routinely get 130+ with only the standard A,B,D blade, quench, sharpen, assemble. Is it really realistic to expect a beginner smith to make weapons so much better than the store bought ones? Who makes those anyway? If people can make max quality blades with the skill levels available now where is the industry going to go in the future? Is the max level already up to the 200 that matches the other skill types? It seems to me it is already too easy.
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I agree with the minigame idea. That would solve several problems at once: monotony, bottability, etc.
Please? :flowers:
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Quite possible, but a long long ways off.
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I haven't posted here in months... and I also haven't played in months. I do keep checking for updates, but non have been released, so I feel it is safe to say that things are the same as when I last logged in). But I feel I should post here... as the references to watching movies while crafting blades is something I have publicly admitted to doing. The honest problems I have with crafting weapons are:
1. BORING. There is no other word for it. Each step may be incredibly simple and non-time consuming. However, once you get past level 10 or so it becomes hopelessly boring to make any real progress towards the next level and increased quality.
2. Market is unwilling to pay for low quality blades. This is a chicken and egg problem, and I have observed it being better on EZPCUSA, but the fact that people only want best quality blades means that I cannot even earn enough trias to keep training crafting without resorting to mining (regardless of NPC direction to get a steady supply of ore established). If I had to actually pay for ore AND training... I wouldn't make it to level 10 without going bankrupt. I wouldn't make it to level 5 without going bankrupt if I had to craft blades start to finish without hammering the same blade to train. You also can't sell to a NPC for anything close to what the cost of materials even... 1 stock goes for approx 800 - 1000 trias. A Sabre that requires 1 Stock and 2 ingots... would then run you on the high end 1200 trias. You can sell to Harnquist for approx 150 trias.
3. Too random. I have had materials that I take forever to get up to near Q200 each... only to have a blade combined to be less than Q100. I have had the same blade and worked it over and over... one time it can go from Q87 to Q151... other times I have had one go from Q142 to Q38. I have not seen an appreciable amount of stability in quality with training to approx lvl 15... maybe this happens later, but unless something solves the problem of crafting being both unprofitable and boring... I won't be personally finding out.
There has to be a fine line between realism and fun... un-scriptable and unplayable... I don't envy any of the developers in this conflict. But I have not been able to bring myself to train weapons crafting to even double digits on EZPCUSA because at times I would rather remove my own fingernails.
I have suggested, and I don't know if it is technically possible, that there be quests that require you to craft weapons... possibly of a certain quality. Give crafting some purpose other than to have people shun your work because it isn't perfect or grinding until it is.
For the record, When I was crafting and watching movies... It was on the same PC and I had a window partially covering the PS window so I could still see my character and associated messages. I was still chatting if anyone came by and talked to me... etc. But, to be completely honest about it, If i was actively engaged in conversation it would take me twice to three times as long to train my next level because I would forget to click things... or I would overheat things and have to start over at the quench tank, etc.
I guess it is now time to go back to the shadows and patiently wait for what is coming in the next release...
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I assure you things have been changing between releases and that is what this thread is about. Bovek has been working on a lot of the crafting issues and things are slowly improving. That said, a lot of the issues you talk about, Mythryndel, remain. The reward for crafting is not in line with the cost. I do not personally buy ore, I mine my own. I might buy gold to smelt but nobody mines it as platinum is more worthwhile. As far as endless hammering goes, it never grabbed me as worthwhile except for the practice. Now you do that before quenching for the practice. It doesn't seem to matter, the assembly stage sets the final quality and yes, it can vary quite a bit. I have never made a q300 weapon nor have I ever used one.
As far as I can tell training blades means making knives and sword handles until they stop giving practice. This can be done with the same set of ingots as long as you never take the step of no return, quenching the red hot knife blade. sword handles can be turned back into ingots by hammering while super heated. I never try to maximize my raw material quality, it does not seem to matter.
There is at least one quest that required someone to craft sabres as they do not appear to be available from npcs anymore, and the dev team seems satisfied with this situation so there will likely be more
Conversation always interrupts training. Typing takes time and concentration.
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i can assure you a lot of work has been done on those points and will soon (tm) be available :)
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I look forward to see it in-game!!
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I know I'm jumping in late, but I have been collecting data on the "exciting new things". Getting the facts straight before talking if you wish.
1) Scrap realism. Becoming a true master in any craft takes a decade or two in real life.
2) Maximize fun. Maxing anything is utterly boring at this time, and forces players who want to play a good smith into months of mind-dumbing repetitive tasks. (Same goes for excellent fighters or mages.)
3) Training is a solo thing. This is a multiplayer game, so the time spent for training is lost time to interact with other players.
Then there are the things specific to crafting:
A) Shortening the heating times was irrelevant. You can always heat while hammering. (Not too unrealistic, too.)
B) Shortening the hammering times for some intermediate steps is helpful, but it was just a 20% decrease for a full cycle. While it's nice to train faster by 20%, it doesn't change much for the basic problems.
C) As has been said before, initial quality is irrelevant. Let's say the quality of an intermediate stage if determined by the previous stage's quality at 40%, the crafter's skill at 40%, and by chance at 20% (just inventing some numbers here, the real numbers are different but not too far off). Just for the delta blade after two steps, the initial quality is down to a relevance of 6.4%. The final blade is still several steps ahead, drowning out the initial quality to irrelevance.
D) The random factors are far too high. If the chance of mucking up your blade at any stage are 10%, this means you have a 90% change of success (or at least not losing your work). Making a blade is five(?) steps that influence quality, so which means you have a chance of 0.9^5=0.59=59% of getting through without fouling up.
Fouling up isn't the end of the world as you can take a fouled-up blade and rehammer it, but it's still not fun. Particularly since you have to spend two minutes just to heat up the darned mistake and hammer it back to something that has a mere chance of becoming something useful.
The random factors also totally swamp out the difference between a level and the next. At one time, an increase of one level in blacksmithing and axemaking would increase the average end result's quality by 10, but you don't notice that if the random factors make the blades vary by 50 points. So increasing a crafting skill denies people the positive feedback of having achieved something - it's not unusual to make 10 blades at a new level and find that the average quality dropped by 10 (happened to me more than once, though the level after that would then usually give me a plus of 30, re-establishing the +10 per level overall).
E) I see shield making being compared to weapon crafting. I thing that's grotesquely wrong; you should really compare it with metallurgy training.
There, I can juggle twelve of sixteen ingots at a time, and gain another point of skill as quickly as I can move an ingot from furnace to stock casting and vice versa. It's mind-numbing, it's giving you RSI, but after a few weeks of grind, you have it.
That was just the right level of a barrier: more than you'd like, but not so much that you regret having done it after you're over with it.
If shield making is worse than weapon crafting, then shield making is far too difficult by at least an order of magnitude.
IMHO and YMMV etc.
/me steps down from his soap box, bows and vanishes in the crowd.
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D) The random factors are far too high. If the chance of mucking up your blade at any stage are 10%, this means you have a 90% change of success (or at least not losing your work). Making a blade is five(?) steps that influence quality, so which means you have a chance of 0.9^5=0.59=59% of getting through without fouling up.
Random factors have another, more serious flaw. The server has only one pseudo-random number generator and by specifying that you should have 10% chance of mucking up your blade, the rule is applied to the large number of crafters, not to an individual crafter. If, for example, players A, B and C all start making a blade, they all together have a 10% chance of mucking up the blade meaning that out of 30 events there are 3 that would fail. Unfortunately there is no rule saying that the failures should spread out evenly to all the players and the player A may get all 3 failures leading to frustration and confusion why the chances are not working properly.
See also http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design/features/randomness/ for some ideas how it could be done better.
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D) The random factors are far too high. If the chance of mucking up your blade at any stage are 10%, this means you have a 90% change of success (or at least not losing your work). Making a blade is five(?) steps that influence quality, so which means you have a chance of 0.9^5=0.59=59% of getting through without fouling up.
Random factors have another, more serious flaw. The server has only one pseudo-random number generator and by specifying that you should have 10% chance of mucking up your blade, the rule is applied to the large number of crafters, not to an individual crafter. If, for example, players A, B and C all start making a blade, they all together have a 10% chance of mucking up the blade meaning that out of 30 events there are 3 that would fail. Unfortunately there is no rule saying that the failures should spread out evenly to all the players and the player A may get all 3 failures leading to frustration and confusion why the chances are not working properly.
See also http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design/features/randomness/ for some ideas how it could be done better.
actually it's shared among any action using randomness including mining, attacking... so this makes the pseudo random number generator a bit more random as it has a random variable getting in: numbers of times the random generation is called as a pseudo random generator usually takes the next number from the precedent status in such an enviroment you get in a real random variable: the players. Additionally the distribution used is supposed to rarely hit the two extremes and tend to be in the middle but this is also managed by a variable which is global to the specific crafting technique (what the books are called). For example did anyone notice metallurgy has less slags now than before? at level 100 you get a number of them near 0 if not zero.
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...Additionally the distribution used is supposed to rarely hit the two extremes and tend to be in the middle but this is also managed by a variable which is global to the specific crafting technique (what the books are called). For example did anyone notice metallurgy has less slags now than before? at level 100 you get a number of them near 0 if not zero.
This is a VERY welcome change! Hope I can find some time to get back in-game soon to see all of these improvements first-hand.
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I don't think the distribution of randomness matters that much. Randomness as such plays a far too large role IMHO, at least for crafting.
Both because it's frustrating, and because it makes the quality of the first crafting steps almost irrelevant.
Of course, that's just one of the many points I raised above. I hope they'll get considered, if only at a "we don't think so because..." level.
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Trust me, it matters. Maybe not as much as other things... but it does. It sucks when you have been smelting silver for 30 levels... and you slag half a batch just because your random chance called in its marker.
The other thing, related to this, that I would like to see... is the random chance being affected by the difficulty of the item in question. Once you can smelt Gold, it has the same slag chance as you had when you first started with Iron, but Iron should be relatively easy for you and slag significantly less often. As part of this though, I would like to get greater credit toward advancing from more difficult crafting items... smelting/casting Gold ore/ingots would give more credit toward the next level than Iron...
But I've been around for a while... and I will hopefully get back in-game soon... so... I can wait a while longer... :)
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Crafting should be long, ardous and difficult, not annoyingly so but for a couple reasons that come to mind. Firstly, crafting is very rewarding in the end result and secondly I remember too many people spamming one button while using another client to mine. The latter is then reduced and the first is even more rewarding with the new system.
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Crafting should be long, ardous and difficult, not annoyingly so but for a couple reasons that come to mind. Firstly, crafting is very rewarding in the end result and secondly I remember too many people spamming one button while using another client to mine. The latter is then reduced and the first is even more rewarding with the new system.
(I know the player who started this thread is a master sword and axe crafter... so maybe pay a bit of attention to what he was saying ::) )
Work in real life is "long, arduous and difficult". We play games to get away from that. Games should be fun. I have never heard anyone refer to crafting in PlaneShift as fun.
So what if it is rewarding in the end? If it is too tedious and time consuming to see actual results, most players will never do it long enough to see any reward.
What I am referring to is the lack of obvious progression in quality from level to level. At level 1 sword-making it is possible to craft blades of 150Q... at level 10 (after many hours of tedious click, move, click) it is still quite likely to make swords under 100Q. The flaws in the random system that Elvors and Tharos pointed out, coupled with the length of time involved and extreme repetitiveness of the tasks, serve to effectively discourage most players who would otherwise enjoy roleplaying a crafter.
I do not see how this will reduce people mining while crafting. It is entirely possible to switch to the "mining alt" during any stage of crafting (except perhaps heating in the forge or furnace).
I am not even going to start here about what should be changed with metallurgy, to avoid dragging this thread too far :offtopic:
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Crafting should be long, ardous and difficult, not annoyingly so but for a couple reasons that come to mind. Firstly, crafting is very rewarding in the end result and secondly I remember too many people spamming one button while using another client to mine. The latter is then reduced and the first is even more rewarding with the new system.
(I know the player who started this thread is a master sword and axe crafter... so maybe pay a bit of attention to what he was saying ::) )
Work in real life is "long, arduous and difficult". We play games to get away from that. Games should be fun. I have never heard anyone refer to crafting in PlaneShift as fun.
So what if it is rewarding in the end? If it is too tedious and time consuming to see actual results, most players will never do it long enough to see any reward.
What I am referring to is the lack of obvious progression in quality from level to level. At level 1 sword-making it is possible to craft blades of 150Q... at level 10 (after many hours of tedious click, move, click) it is still quite likely to make swords under 100Q. The flaws in the random system that Elvors and Tharos pointed out, coupled with the length of time involved and extreme repetitiveness of the tasks, serve to effectively discourage most players who would otherwise enjoy roleplaying a crafter.
I do not see how this will reduce people mining while crafting. It is entirely possible to switch to the "mining alt" during any stage of crafting (except perhaps heating in the forge or furnace).
I am not even going to start here about what should be changed with metallurgy, to avoid dragging this thread too far :offtopic:
The author listed the steps, and called it a pain in the but. I then responded by saying its clearly a pain in the butt, and not so bad because of the reasons I listed. La-te-da-te-da. :sorcerer:
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...and I explained, clearly, that the reward is not worth the effort for most. You also failed to explain how it will reduce multi-clienting (such as for mining). However, thank you for re-posting my entire response to your original vague and unfounded comment; this gives people the option of reading it, in all it's glory, twice in a row. ;D
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Update: The new prices for steels stock and swords....AWESOME. it really makes it worth while to be crafter now. I never really had any problem with the crafting process, just the money . Now, I'm happy.
Thank you.
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And after reading through this thread and thinking about it as I went, the above post confirms any collected information as trash. At least I can be sure the grinding element hasn't changed.