PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Raekh on December 15, 2009, 12:15:02 am
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Mod's note: topic split off from http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36379.msg415410#msg415410
PS already has the gameplay immersion handled through it's RP rules
lol
But seriously, what "rules"? (okay, rhethorically)
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PS already has the gameplay immersion handled through it's RP rules, now to get the pretty graphics.
Personally I really don't think that cuts it, to be perfectly honest.
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PS already has the gameplay immersion handled through it's RP rules
lol
But seriously, what "rules"? (okay, rhethorically)
These.
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6869/rulesy.jpg)
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And of course the [MUST READ] Game Rules and Policies (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.0) - especially [GAME POLICY 07] RP Content and Language Control (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367021#msg367021)
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Okay...to ask again...What RP rules?
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We're solidly working on the gameplay and balance for the next couple months.
Rp rules are in the covenant, we just haven't decided how to implement it. Some devs don't really like overly strict sounding rules that the gms and myself made up. So we're working on compromise. Where would we put them, and who would pay attention anyway?
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Well, players were adding quite some to this topic and attempted to work some covenant out in this thread (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34124.0;topicseen) - in this regard, sorry for going offtopic, any mod feel free to move this to the mentioned thread.
How to implement it, hm, for a start you could have it display during the installation process, furthermore varying excerpts could be shown as motds to have this covenant remain present.
As for the attention paid or not, at least PS being focused on RP would be more official. When I joined PS I didnt really have a detailed clue on how to RP, and I think I would have been glad to have had such a guideline.
Art is getting improved, content is added and extented: the game is evolving - covering the aspect RP as well would make this progress more entire.
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zee topics..... day hast been splitified.
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Okay...to ask again...What RP rules?
Just for you I dug up this ^^
Remember that PlaneShift is a Role Playing Game - be sure to read our Roleplay guidelines! We think the RPG part of the mmorpg definition has a meaning!
http://www.planeshift.it/roleplay.html
For thoughts of you to lazy to look it up ^^
Roleplay Guide
Let's make a pact before starting: I will make it short, but you will read it completely. If you want to have a good experience inside our virtual world, it's important that you grasp all the concepts behind Roleplay.
The beauty of a virtual world it's similar to the beauty of a book, where you imagine the places that are described and, during the time you read it, you start to believe it's real, you participate to the story, you immerse into the description and into the plot. Imagination is what makes the difference, and if you start picturing certain characters, you will enjoy the book more.
In an online world, many things are similar to a book: there are fantasy places, characters, monsters, evil and good creatures, a story and many small plots, event and such. Most important of all we give you the chance to create a character, giving you much more freedom to interact and participate. To achieve that in a book you could write few additional chapters of your favorite book that describe the adventures of an additional character, you could describe his past, give certain spikes to his attitudes to make it interesting, invent his clothing style, his behaviors and attitudes.
In PlaneShift you can create a new character and have him participate to the virtual world.
What's of critical importance is that the character you will create in game is NOT yourself. He is another being with his wills and aims and fears and joys. You have to keep this separation as strong as possible to successfully roleplay.
Let's check what the dictionary says about roleplay:
Role play: To assume or represent in a drama; act out
That's exactly the point. You are asked to create a character, to think about his personality and goals, and then to act out, like if you was on a stage performing in a theatre. The more you are able to make it real for yourself and for others, the more you are achieving the purposes of roleplay.
Ok, now you may ask what the beauty of it is. In my opinion the beauty is to re-recreate a much as possible a fantasy medieval world that's full of life thanks to the people acting in it. Making it seems real, to be the most immersive experience ever, something a movie or a book will never give you.
As you may imagine it's not easy, because many people will not collaborate to this task, and "reality" in the virtual world can easily be disrupted by someone saying: "Is this a good game?".
You may be interested in what's allowed and what's not in terms of behavior and speech for a good roleplay. The answer is very simple: everything that your character will do is allowed, with his knowledge, his intelligence, his attitudes. When you have him speak, think to what he knows, not what YOU know. He can make jokes, but medieval or fantasy jokes. He should not be a hero at all costs, he can be lazy or chat all day, just have him do this with his brain.
If you start looking at the PlaneShift world this way, things will be a lot more enjoyable, and there will be a lot more to do than just going for monsters hunting or getting rich in game.
The kran looks at the written page, tilting his head a bit and scratching the top with his left hand. - "Well, I never been a novelist, but that should do it, I guess." He stands up from the giant crystal table, picks a thick cloak and looks outside the window of his sculptured stone house. He concentrates a bit and thanks to his magic vision, he reaches the Hydlaa plaza.
- "mmmm... there is still much more to do, but things are surely getting better. Time for some magic!"
Ok so not quite rules, but hay worth reading anyway.
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Oh, nice, now I have an explanation what RP is, but i don't see any rules on how to RP or even advices on good RP there. People have to look for this at other sources (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/about810.html).
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So what do you want done about it?
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We're solidly working on the gameplay and balance for the next couple months.
This honestly makes me very happy.
Also, as far as RP rules go, there really can't be a way to enforce it. I feel as long as people don't go outside the setting, keep it within the bounds of their character and capabilities, just generally be sensible, it all works out ok.
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I've added some basic rp guidelines to the tips.
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I think the problem isn't defining rules.... any reasonable person would soon conform to the community's expectation. The problem is people who don't care about RP but play anyway because it's free. There are more and more of them, and they're the problem, not defining RP.
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Having defined some covenant, some guideline, people agreed to during the installation process would provide the option to the team to face people like that with appropriate means.
Didnt I write that in my last post? Ah no, I thought this was obvious enough.
Good start Xillix, thanks!
While the content Aiw linked to might be too lengthy and detailed to be implemented into the game, still I think it would be worthy to be included. How about, given Aiws agreement of course (and some changes to it), adding such to the PS website, linked on the site Ingles gave?
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While the content Aiw linked to might be too lengthy and detailed to be implemented into the game, still I think it would be worthy to be included. How about, given Aiws agreement of course (and some changes to it), adding such to the PS website, linked on the site Ingles gave?
The guide was written for new outlaws, so i guess some changes are needed to make it more general. All suggestions, improvements, change ideas and others are welcomed of course. And everyone who wants to copy it/link it should feel free to do so, but it is mostly my view on RP...there are for sure others views on this topic.
And thanks Xillix, sounds indeed like a good start.
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Rp rules are in the covenant, we just haven't decided how to implement it. Some devs don't really like overly strict sounding rules that the gms and myself made up. So we're working on compromise. Where would we put them, and who would pay attention anyway?
sounds a lot like the american constitution, mr. hamilton! :P </dork>
how to handle this: it may be messy, but just go ahead and implement something at least. it's better than nothing. sometimes you just have to go ahead and present something no matter how unpolished your idea is. i guess it's alright if you want to give up. fine, but that's just making it worse.
you'd put a link in the login screen of course.
who would pay attention? well, whoever does. that's really an unanswerable question.
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Aiwendil has my respect, he's a good guy who knows a good deal about roleplaying.
I'd have no problem with his input.
Good to see the movement resume.
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What Aiwendil doesn't know is I linked that very article on my clan forums as a guide to RP.
One idea is to have a "splash screen" Terms and Conditions upon login to Fragnetics. A similar splash screen for EZ outlining that it's a test server and to work with it as such would also be appropriate. It doesn't need to be large print, just there in detail so that offenders can't claim ignorance on the fact that it wasn't put right in front of their faces.
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Ah, glad to hear it's helpful for some people.
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Thing is, this basic information is available everywhere touching on PS. It has and can only help people interested. Most simply aren't. The outlaws guide is a good one, but the problem has never been people who would willingly read something of that length, the problem is just the opposite.
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I haven't seen the new IG tutorial yet, but I would guess it would be a good place to announce either rules, tips, or anything that may get players in trouble. Be it a link or a section of the tutorial about it. The old RP section wasn't bad at all, I just fear with the new quest system most wouldn't read it anyway since they don't need to (already wondered many times how did some people get through the old one).
but it is mostly my view on RP...there are for sure others views on this topic.
So here you have some more.
Since nobody is using this I've made public the tutorials Aiw's were based on (which were as well based on others) I wrote for newbies in my old guild. Links to the original ones are in each tutorial.- Roleplaying Guide (http://mindseye.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=222)
- Guide To (not) Godmodding (http://mindseye.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=223)
- How to RP-Fight (http://mindseye.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=224)
This last one was written by Rilar and can be found here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=19339.0) as well. Haven't re-read both now and was made long ago so I can't tell if I added something by then or not at this point.
I think the problem isn't defining rules.... any reasonable person would soon conform to the community's expectation. The problem is people who don't care about RP but play anyway because it's free. There are more and more of them, and they're the problem, not defining RP.
Nope, these people aren't really a problem, just raise the player count and hopefully find some bugs. They do not roleplay and don't use Main that much, thus they don't get the chance to mess up an RP or the general atmosphere. Of course it would be better if they would roleplay and contribute to it, but not doing so isn't either disrupting it.
The problem are people who think anything is legit in RP. People playing gnomes, winged dwarven ghosts that shoot devil arrows, klyros that can fly from town to town, babies who force actions on adults, cellphones (read as IC tells and guildchats) and a long etcetera of grotesque characters that can be seen around.
But to deal with this you can't do with a "please do RP or get banned" rule, first because this seems to enforce the meaning of everything that looks like RP is RP thus legit and second because it's pretty hard to tell what is and is not allowed with such open "rules".
If you're going to kick or ban somebody for any reason, there shouldn't be much room left to personal opinions since this would probably only bring a lot of trouble between players and GMs about what happened and what didn't, what is in-setting and what is not, what is godmodding and what is not, what <insert the next possible rule here>, etc. It should be as objective as other rules are: cheat ---> ban; harass ---> warning then ban, and so on. But I see no other way than going about it than setting detailed rules.
Thing is, this basic information is available everywhere touching on PS. It has and can only help people interested. Most simply aren't. The outlaws guide is a good one, but the problem has never been people who would willingly read something of that length, the problem is just the opposite.
Well I'm pretty sure it can be explained in more simple words. Besides these (and the links I posted) aren't rulesets but just guidelines to do good RP, and these are obviously not the only ones... the net is full of them. So there is plenty of information to pick ideas from.
In the end you don't need everybody to read all these, but everybody, in any online game, needs to read the game rules to play. So if the team comes up with a more simple but detailed enough ruleset (which could contain links to some tutorials) I would guess rules can be policed just as the Naming Policy is, or the Cheating one is. Players may not have read the naming policy but if they create a char called Pinkpanther and a GM spots it the name will be changed no matter what. The same way they are asked for a name they would prefer in such case, they can be advised as to how to re-direct their behavior into a suitable one before getting punished. We have a lot of GMs now, one would think that as long as they know the rules, enforcing them in a not very abrasive way shouldn't be a real problem.
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So, if too much text for RP rules is the problem maybe some short rules where each is linked to a according section in the Guides and Tutorials board will do. Something like this:
Roleplay rules for laanx/Fragnetics
1. All Roleplay(RP) must be within the bounds of the PlaneShift Settings (http://www.planeshift.it/setting.html).
This includes (among others)
- Character background must fit the world of PlaneShift. (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32643.0)
- Guilds must have a background and fit in the settings of PlaneShift. (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=25859.0)
- Descriptions of Characters need to be consistent with the Settings. (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32643.0)
2. Be coherent
- All players need to stick to their role and not change their characters' behavior without an In-Character(IC) reason. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7560.php#7560)
- When using the Player vs. Player (PvP) system to fight other characters a minimum amount of RP is needed to to justify the combat. (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35527.0)
- NPCs must be treated like real people. No guard would watch a crime committed right in front of him. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7563.php#7563)
3. Chat tabs
- /say, /shout and /auction are IC only. For Out-Of-Character(OOC) messages or short OOC conversations brackets are mandatory. (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367014#msg367014)
- Guild chat, group chat, tells and chat channels are usually OOC if not used for short distance whispers or playing separate instances. If whispering in a public area, keeping Main for emotes is strongly recommended. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7562.php#7562)
- Leet speech, abbreviations like "lol" and smilies are not allowed in any IC chat tab.
4. No use of OOC Knowledge
- Characters are not allowed to use any knowledge not acquired by IC means. This includes knowledge from most forum posts, OOC chat or IRC. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7562.php#7562)
- Passing of information between characters must be played out in game. This is also true for alts of the same players. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7562.php#7562)
- Name label, item quality, skill levels and similar are not visible for your character and therefore can't be used IC. For crafted items the attributes like "superior" and "finest" should be used.
5. No Godmodding
- No enforcing of actions on others. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7563.php#7563)
- No modding of NPC actions. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7563.php#7563)
- All characters are meant to have weaknesses. There is no unbeatable sword-fighter or magician, even less an unbeatable swordfighting mage. (http://outlaws.myfreeforum.org/sutra7563.php#7563)
Failing to follow one of these rules won't lead to immediate banning but constant complains from different players (together with a /report about the misdoing) about a player not following the rules will lead to sanctions like kicking or banning.
The links are only meant as examples and don't entirely fit in every case. But a rule-set like this is much less to read then the current game rules (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.0) everyone should know. So I think it wouldn't be too much to ask of players on laanx to also read these.
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I added much of this to the tips already.
If you mean linking these into the current rules on the forum that's fairly easy (if they are approved), but how would you have them delivered on laanx? No one is going to read the tutorial very thoroughly. It's boring and they want to come and beg from you for two months before powerleveling and returning to kick your ass or at least threaten to every time he sees you. Where should it go to impact people. Even the option with various links (most of which are well found solid posts) isn't tenable to this player.
What to do?
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In my opinion it's like with the naming policy...People maybe don't read it but it's still enforced. After getting a char renamed once people will maybe read the policy and do it better next time. About the same for the RP rules. They could be added to the in-game help for example and here in the forums to the policies. (Of course when approved). It's not that important that people read them in advance...it's more important that players have a place to point another players if they think the player does something wrong. If the players continues like this and ignores the RP rules on laanx the displeasure among the other players will get big enough to report him/her at last and a warning or after repeated reports some more harsh sanctions can be inflicted.
Edit:typos
Edit2:
And the problem with the links is that they are mostly player written posts, not by the officials of the PS team. It doesn't work to point a player to these since they won't accept them as "rules".
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You make a good point, Lhaa. I once had a problem with another player on Laanx who decided it was his RP to "mob-steal" off my character (he proclaimed so in Main), and he also thought shouting "pleeeeeeeeb" around the crater was also IC. There are alot of players like this.
I vote a splash screen upon login. With simply an "I Agree" button under it. With what Aiwendil quoted (Roleplay rules for Laanx/Fragnetics) as the text for the splash screen. That way it's unavoidable. Possibly also say something along the lines of "There are several community-run forums that elaborate on these principles." and the typical "Failure to adhere to this will get you kicked/banned."
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I don't know, madness could be pretty fun to RP if done correctly.
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In my opinion it's like with the naming policy...People maybe don't read it but it's still enforced. After getting a char renamed once people will maybe read the policy and do it better next time. About the same for the RP rules. They could be added to the in-game help for example and here in the forums to the policies. (Of course when approved). It's not that important that people read them in advance...it's more important that players have a place to point another players if they think the player does something wrong. If the players continues like this and ignores the RP rules on laanx the displeasure among the other players will get big enough to report him/her at last and a warning or after repeated reports some more harsh sanctions can be inflicted.
Funny, it's pretty much what I was going to write :P And just the naming policy shows that rules without enforcement don't help (Who never saw a poorly named avatar?) - to have a rp server the rp rules have to be enforced. The possibility to make petitions about bad behaviour, that lead finally to consequences, might be an easy and good way for all sides.
Sen
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I agree on having consequences possible, but this would require some definition on good or worse RP.
First of all the Covenant has to be established, for people will know how to do things at all. Then define quality, for people will know to distinguish good from bad RP, and finally set up some guideline on consequences for what type of misbehavior.
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I don't know, madness could be pretty fun to RP if done correctly.
Yes, but too many people claim IC madness and then use it as an excuse to act like idiots. I'd rather see people picking a genuine disorder and play it out realistically than run around abusing the /shout command and deliberately annoying people.
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I agree on having consequences possible, but this would require some definition on good or worse RP.
First of all the Covenant has to be established, for people will know how to do things at all. Then define quality, for people will know to distinguish good from bad RP, and finally set up some guideline on consequences for what type of misbehavior.
Sorry, I can't agree there. A discussion about good and bad RP will take years. And the view on this will change with the player-base. I'm more for the "Rules first then discussion about what is acceptable RP" approach. I guess the question what is accepted in RP will be a ongoing discussion and the rules and their enforcement should be adjusted to this discussion.
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I agree, trying to punish people for poor quality RP is a step too far. If someone's doing a crap RP, you have the right to not participate.
Let's face it, most of those "madness" RPs will get thrown in an asylum (which I can model if you guys want) or just general prison, as temporary/permanent insanity isn't a defence under Octarchial law.
So we have enough GMs to police the game OOC and ward against people acting outside of the rules using OOC means (/tells and /group), but we don't really have them enough for IC policing as various forms of guards...
That said there are a few goodguy guilds that can do some of that, unoficially, if both sides are adhering to the rules we've agreed to on that splash screen thingy.
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I don't know, madness could be pretty fun to RP if done correctly.
Yes, but too many people claim IC madness and then use it as an excuse to act like idiots. I'd rather see people picking a genuine disorder and play it out realistically than run around abusing the /shout command and deliberately annoying people.
I see that kind of madness on the bus all the time, though XP Abuse of the shout command, rambling incoherent nonsense, etc, etc. I'd say leave the shout command alone though, just keep it as a 'say', but there are plenty of whacked out people who do actually seem to fit that description...
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As for rules I would say keep them as terse as possible if you want people to read them.
Regarding enforcement, I think its better to teach than to punish in the case of bad rp.
I don't see how you could punish bad RP without going to an extreme...
Player1 tellls gm: so and so said that he's a just a figment of my imagination. Tell him to stop it !
Player 1 tells gm: so and so godmodded me. Can you please ban him ?
Player1 tells gm: I was just about trick xyz into hiring me for a job until so and so used ooc info and
made xyz change her mind. I'll send you the 20 pages of logs as proof. Please incarcerate this character
I think each player should know how to deal with these problems themselves in a constructive manner. Ignoring is one option but unless its really needed I think it has the potential of doing more damage than good. Someone who godmods for example could be dealt with by telling them that the effects of their action was less than they stated:
Godbert stuffs Rigwyn into the closet and locks the door.
Rigwyn laughs at Godbert's failed attempt.
Godbert casts ball of fire at Rigwyn burning him into ashes and then snorts the ashes
Rigwyn ducks sustaining minor burns. He wrinkles his nose as it gets a whiff of burnt hair.
Rigwyn then swings his sword at Godbert's head.
Godbert laughs as the sword bends over his own head like a wet noodle. Zero damage is done. Godbert cannot fail.
Rigwyn tells Godbert: [your refusal to lose and insistence on forcing your actions on my character makes me not want
to rp with you. I'de be glad to discuss this with you ooc sometime ]
Iampsychic says: Rigwyn, I know your an Outlaw. Leave or I'll call the guards
Rigwyn holds his hand to his ear as if straining to hear [ that's ooc info. Let's chat anout this in tells for a moment ]
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What is the point of having a RP and a Non-RP server if the only differences are stricter naming policies and the rule to use brackets for OOC chat in main. Everything else needs to be accepted as RP? The rules I suggested are not meant to serve as a purpose to ban a players at the slightest RP-mistake. They are meant to show people what is expected on the RP server and to give other players the possibility to point out misdoings in other RPs. Right now I don't see any rule that forbid someone playing a 400 year old Nolthrir/Dermorian halfbreed, a dragon or a yeti. With the current rules everyone could state something like this in their descriptions and all that other players can do about it is either ignore the players or try to convince him that his character is out of the settings. If the player doesn't want to be convinced there is no other way.
Failing to follow one of these rules won't lead to immediate banning but constant complains from different players (together with a /report about the misdoing) about a player not following the rules will lead to sanctions like kicking or banning.
With some rules players had at least the chance to complain and if enough players complain GMs can take some actions. I never suggested that GMs should policy all ongoing RP. But they should have rules to enforce if players start to complain. And these rules would also give them the possibility to poke players about settings mistakes in descriptions or deal with excessive godmodding. Right now godmodding isn't even forbidden on the RP server. Sure, I'm aware that it is disputatious what is still acceptable and where godmodding starts. But a GM standing next to a players doing something like "/me draws his sword, walks past xxxx and beheads him with a mighty blow" and not having the backup to even sent a tell that this is no acceptable behavior is for sure not what we all want on a RP server. But in the first place the rules I suggested address the players and should give them the means to poke others about their wrong-doings. I don't really get how you want to teach anyone what is acceptable RP on laanx if there is nothing that tells yourself what is accepted. All you can teach is your own view on RP.
I agree, trying to punish people for poor quality RP is a step too far. If someone's doing a crap RP, you have the right to not participate.
In general I agree with this. /ignore is your friend. But there should be a way to deal with a player messing around with a majority of the other players. A player RPing some strange monsters that eats the brains of others on sight no matter if it's near a guard or some other bystanders is annoying for a lot of players the first time until they put him on /ignore. And /ignore is not the best solutions anyway because it always leads to situations where part of a group playing with each other ignores a player and the other part doesn't. A more general way to deal with such players is better in my opinion.
Edit:typos
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Seems like my last post was too vaguely worded: I did not mean to punish people for "poor RP", in fact with poor RP I was referring to invalid RP, according to "acceptable RP" as Raekh wrote.
As for "madness RP", the content does not matter at all, make it a plot concerning flowers, love, peace and cuddling, or one about insane night stalkers - what matters is if it is valid according to the setting and the covenant, or just a fake "RP" as an excuse for OOCly bugging people (intentionally or by ignorance). For the latter, I am not really sure if facing OOCish behavior by ICish means like imprisoning is a good and appropriate idea, since such won't teach the difference between valid and invalid but might even encourage to continue acting in a way not supporting a RP-focused game.
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Put the finished product on the website and forums, have them be curt and followed up with detailed but concise explanations; not many want to read from a wall of text.
As for the idea of a splash screen contract with an 'I Agree' option, I believe that its already within policy that a person will be banned for not obeying the rules after numerous offenses, among these rules are those concerning roleplaying. However. before a player enters the game for the first time a list of the most important roleplaying rules popping up wouldn't be half bad.
Among the notes during login/loading screens, ("Dwarves may be short, but noyone grows a better beard!") have a rule there, along with the url of the page where they are all listed.
Those are some ideas.
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http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367011#msg367011 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367011#msg367011)
Rp Covenant is placed there, and is going into the exit of the tutorial.
Everyone already passed the tutorial should read it in the above link.
This is as far as the team feels it can commit via rules.
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Thanks for the effort Xillix.
Of course not what I meant but it seems I have to do with laanx being a server where RP is only tolerated.
So no way that the team can come up with an official opinion on the following for laanx?
- Is godmodding allowed?
- Are Non-RP guilds allowed on laanx?
- What chat tabs are IC? (especially the public available auction tab. At the moment this is more or less a OOC only tab is seems)
- Do all people on laanx have to tolerate RPs in which OOC knowledge for example from the forums is used? Is it valid to accuse others of crimes they did and posted logs from here in the forums for everyone to read?
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This is as far as the team feels it can commit via rules.
The rest is for the community to lead by example.
If people violate the rules, OR cause disruption, CALL A GM!